Re: Launch Costs (was-re: AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol. 7, Issue 312)
...if here in Houston we had to "pay rent" for our tower space (and we have
a
couple of them) then the group that I am a part of which has a pretty nice repeater/packet system would simply be out of luck. What we were able to
do
is convince the folks who usually take the large dollars to view us as a public service and we get the tower space (and the everything else space including Electricity) for 10 dollars a year.
While AMSAT and other groups might or not compete with paying payloads have we lost the ability to go out and convince people that AMSAT is a worthy cause?
Amsat has tried to sell the emergency and disaster communications aspect of amateur radio but so far nobody has bitten on that bait. Getting space on a tower is a few thousand dollars per year, getting a free satellite launch represents a thousand times more money. A local ham club working with local public safety officials can show them directly how valuable hams can be, on the national level we are trying to appeal to a big bureaucracy with little practical experience. Most of the rest of the world regards ham radio as an outmoded hobby practiced by elderly white males. It has been said before in this forum that nobody is going to donate money so that hams can talk to Japan through an amateur satellite.
Amsat is not the only worthy non-profit in space these days. We compete with many other amateur space groups, including the Google Lunar X prize teams. Education is what brings in the big bucks today. The grant makers have fully swallowed the phony notion that there is a "critical shortage" of engineers and scientists, and they donate to causes that support STEM education. Our ability to access space in the future depends on how well we work with the education community. We need to stress that a real engineering design course must include designing for reliability and a long lived communications mission.
Amsat has a long and proud history of (mostly) successful satellites, which gives us credibility in the field, if we don't allow others to rewrite history and claim credit for things that we did first.
There is always an exception to every rule however, and if we ever find a launch provider who thinks that amateur radio in space is a worthy cause, we will be prepared to jump on it. It all depends on building personal relationships with persons who are in a position to say yes, and as you know, hams come from all walks of life, including corporate executives, military officers and scientists.
Dan Schultz N8FGV
Dan.
thanks for the reply (we will see how long my comments leak through to the BB...I expect the filters to start any moment now)
What I am suggesting is that AMSAT needs to think outside the box in terms of justifying satellites. I dont know that public service will or wont sell...but for instance (and I am just musing this)
Maybe we can get some traction on ISS by figure out a way to use an amateur radio payload as a proof of operation for Dextre? there is some use planned for Dextre in the December (at least notationally now) flight of a Dragon (ie CRS 2).
Finally while I think "personal histories" are great; there needs to be something more then that; there has to be some reason that advances the cause of the launch provider to get the "sizzle" that pony up a free launch. I agree that a launch campaign is not free space on a tower, but the point is that we could not have afforded the space on the three towers we are on (for various devices) had we not gotten them for "10 dollars and a shake" ...and to do that we had to come up with a package that got the people who owned the tower interested in what we did.
We did that and I suspect if AMSAT starts looking outside of the "education box" they will find one as well.
Meanwhile Oscar 7 keeps on chugging RGO WB5MZO
Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 00:05:26 -0400 From: n8fgv@usa.net To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Launch Costs (was-re: AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol. 7, Issue 312)
...if here in Houston we had to "pay rent" for our tower space (and we have
a
couple of them) then the group that I am a part of which has a pretty nice repeater/packet system would simply be out of luck. What we were able to
do
is convince the folks who usually take the large dollars to view us as a public service and we get the tower space (and the everything else space including Electricity) for 10 dollars a year.
While AMSAT and other groups might or not compete with paying payloads have we lost the ability to go out and convince people that AMSAT is a worthy cause?
Amsat has tried to sell the emergency and disaster communications aspect of amateur radio but so far nobody has bitten on that bait. Getting space on a tower is a few thousand dollars per year, getting a free satellite launch represents a thousand times more money. A local ham club working with local public safety officials can show them directly how valuable hams can be, on the national level we are trying to appeal to a big bureaucracy with little practical experience. Most of the rest of the world regards ham radio as an outmoded hobby practiced by elderly white males. It has been said before in this forum that nobody is going to donate money so that hams can talk to Japan through an amateur satellite.
Amsat is not the only worthy non-profit in space these days. We compete with many other amateur space groups, including the Google Lunar X prize teams. Education is what brings in the big bucks today. The grant makers have fully swallowed the phony notion that there is a "critical shortage" of engineers and scientists, and they donate to causes that support STEM education. Our ability to access space in the future depends on how well we work with the education community. We need to stress that a real engineering design course must include designing for reliability and a long lived communications mission.
Amsat has a long and proud history of (mostly) successful satellites, which gives us credibility in the field, if we don't allow others to rewrite history and claim credit for things that we did first.
There is always an exception to every rule however, and if we ever find a launch provider who thinks that amateur radio in space is a worthy cause, we will be prepared to jump on it. It all depends on building personal relationships with persons who are in a position to say yes, and as you know, hams come from all walks of life, including corporate executives, military officers and scientists.
Dan Schultz N8FGV
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
At 02:05 PM 9/26/2012, Daniel Schultz wrote:
Amsat has tried to sell the emergency and disaster communications aspect of amateur radio but so far nobody has bitten on that bait. Getting space on a tower is a few thousand dollars per year, getting a free satellite launch represents a thousand times more money. A local ham club working with local public safety officials can show them directly how valuable hams can be, on the national level we are trying to appeal to a big bureaucracy with little practical experience. Most of the rest of the world regards ham radio as an outmoded hobby practiced by elderly white males. It has been said before in this forum that nobody is going to donate money so that hams can talk to Japan through an amateur satellite.
Amsat is not the only worthy non-profit in space these days. We compete with many other amateur space groups, including the Google Lunar X prize teams. Education is what brings in the big bucks today. The grant makers have fully swallowed the phony notion that there is a "critical shortage" of engineers and scientists, and they donate to causes that support STEM education. Our ability to access space in the future depends on how well we work with the education community. We need to stress that a real engineering design course must include designing for reliability and a long lived communications mission.
I've watched this discussion for some time, and have a couple of things to say. Given what has been done in the past, and what is most likely practical, I don't see a lot of potential for amateur satellites in emergency communication. They could be pressed into service for remote area messaging, but real time communication is more likely to take place on HF, which is open in regional areas more often and for longer than the typical LEO pass. Maybe a geostationary satellite could be more practical for emergency use, though there would need to be 3 to cover (almost) all of the Earth - and my particular side would be at the bottom of the heap, unless it was the Chinese who put the bird up there.
I see a lot more potential in partnering with the education community. They're seeking to train aerospace engineers, and perhaps working with this community - as mentors, given there's a lot of proven satellite expertise in AMSAT, as well as "clients" (to have students building to a specification). Amateur radio itself is about learning - usually self learning, but education would seem to broadly fall in the learning side of the hobby. Sharing that with industry and getting working transponders in return would seem like a win-win. I do think it should be a two way street, AMSAT helps the students and universities achieve their educational goals, and gets a working bird in return, once the primary mission is completed. From what was posted about Fox earlier, that sounds like a good example of this sort of thing.
And of someone wanted to try out a new propulsion system on a live satellite, I'm sure AMSAT would be more than happy to help with the comms side of things.
However, I also understand that times have changed, and I may never get the opportunity to try working a HEO in my lifetime. I'm not going to bag AMSAT for that, it's just the way the industry has gone, and the old launch opportunities have dried up.
73 de VK3JED / VK3IRL http://vkradio.com
Hi,
Since Sept 2009 (when I subscribed to the list) - this thread is most interesting! I have great opportunity to help small educational team which is building 1U cubesat. And I have to agree 200% with Tony that there is great potential for ham community in finding space related educational teams in their countries and help them succeed in their missions.
73 Zilvis
On 2012.09.26 08:38, Tony Langdon wrote:
I see a lot more potential in partnering with the education community. They're seeking to train aerospace engineers, and perhaps working with this community - as mentors, given there's a lot of proven satellite expertise in AMSAT, as well as "clients" (to have students building to a specification). Amateur radio itself is about learning - usually self learning, but education would seem to broadly fall in the learning side of the hobby. Sharing that with industry and getting working transponders in return would seem like a win-win. I do think it should be a two way street, AMSAT helps the students and universities achieve their educational goals, and gets a working bird in return, once the primary mission is completed. From what was posted about Fox earlier, that sounds like a good example of this sort of thing.
And of someone wanted to try out a new propulsion system on a live satellite, I'm sure AMSAT would be more than happy to help with the comms side of things.
However, I also understand that times have changed, and I may never get the opportunity to try working a HEO in my lifetime. I'm not going to bag AMSAT for that, it's just the way the industry has gone, and the old launch opportunities have dried up.
73 de VK3JED / VK3IRL http://vkradio.com
On 09/26/2012 01:38 AM, Tony Langdon wrote:
And of someone wanted to try out a new propulsion system on a live satellite, I'm sure AMSAT would be more than happy to help with the comms side of things.
One can understand the reluctance to allow an explosive kick-motor on a launch vehicle. But is that the only way?
What about a trebuchet? Springs? Rubber bands? Cylinders of compressed gas? Gas produced when needed by mixing two stable chemicals together? A motor that spins up an arm to 'throw' the payload? A magnetic railgun that fires a slug down out of orbit, resulting in recoil pushing the satellite up? Or the payload up, while deorbiting the railgun?
Surely someone smarter than I can come up with a scheme that might actually work? And someone with a smoother tongue than I can persuade a university that this is valuable research to be pursued by their space science department?
At 06:04 PM 9/26/2012, Gus 8P6SM wrote:
On 09/26/2012 01:38 AM, Tony Langdon wrote:
And of someone wanted to try out a new propulsion system on a live satellite, I'm sure AMSAT would be more than happy to help with the comms side of things.
One can understand the reluctance to allow an explosive kick-motor on a launch vehicle. But is that the only way?
These days, definitely not, there's a number of different propulsion ideas being researched, and many of them don't involve explosive chemicals.
73 de VK3JED / VK3IRL http://vkradio.com
--- On Wed, 26/9/12, Gus 8P6SM 8p6sm@anjo.com wrote:
One can understand the reluctance to allow an explosive kick-motor on a launch vehicle. But is that the only way?
Ion motor, see http://www.uk.amsat.org//p=5153
There are several groups currently developing CubeSats with some form of propulsion.
73 Trevor M5AKA
On 09/26/2012 10:06 AM, Trevor . wrote:
Ion motor, see http://www.uk.amsat.org//p=5153
This 404'd.
Typo, should have read http://www.uk.amsat.org/?p=5153
73 Trevor M5AKA
--- On Thu, 27/9/12, Gus 8P6SM 8p6sm@anjo.com wrote:
Ion motor, see http://www.uk.amsat.org//p=5153
This 404'd.
-- 73, de Gus 8P6SM The Easternmost Isle
participants (6)
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Daniel Schultz -
Gus 8P6SM -
R Oler -
Tony Langdon -
Trevor . -
Zilvinas, AUGMA