Simple logic - STOP CALLING!
If a station in a rare grid is on an FM satellite, running 5 watts... and he starts to have a little trouble getting into the bird to answer folks because of some interference, someone keying up, etc... when everyone starts calling him... they all keep keying up and clashing signals... NO ONE is heard and it makes matters WORSE! Just because you don't hear a signal coming back from the satellite DOES NOT MEAN that the UPLINK FREQUENCY IS CLEAR. With 5-6 stations all trying to key up and call at once, nothing gets through but noise, if that...
But one guy finally gets through and you hear him calling the station. Then everyone thinks, "Well, I'm not going to get left out, so I better get right in there!" (And to make matters worse, you give a NIIICCCE LOOOONGGG CALLLL.) Then everyone else keys up and tries... and again, nothing but noise. Until another signal dominates and gets through and here we go again... and this keeps happening over and over and over and over!
In the meantime, the poor rare grid station is trying his damnedest, but he cant get past all the strong stations calling HIM!!! The fact that YOUR station is full duplex doesn't matter... it's the same as a DX pileup on HF. YOU CAN'T HEAR HIM IF YOU KEEP CALLING!
Remember he's very likely LOW POWER! PLEASE... let the rare station RUN THE PILEUP... WAIT... LISTEN, LISTEN, LISTEN!!! It's the key to DX on HF and the same on satellites. Put your competitive, macho egos in park and let the other guy go first and finish his QSO... it's the BEST WAY to clear out the list of callers and GET YOUR CHANCE.
And another thing... It's one thing to blind call a rare station, ONCE... ONE SHORT CALL... BEFORE HE APPEARS. A way to let people on the bird know, 'Attention: rare station alert! Listen up!' But it's a completely different matter to just keep calling and calling so you can get to be the FIRST to work him... THAT'S SELFISH and RUINS it for EVERYONE! And it certainly doesn't make a bit of sense to keep calling and calling ONCE HE HAS ALREADY APPEARED ON THE PASS!!! -
The simple logic boils down to this... If you keep calling, he cannot answer. And the harder you try, the more you cut your own throat. Get it?!!!
X^(
73, N4UFO
A lot of people love to claim FM transponders are the root of all evil. I find that it is operator behaviors that dictate the civility of a particular pass, not the transponder design. Many of my friends who have operated portable have made 10-20+ contacts, in an organized fashion, on a 15 minute pass. It can be done. As the old saying goes "it only takes one bad apple to spoil the bunch."
One of the unfortunate consequences of this bad behavior is the discouragement it gives to our newer operators. I have had people tell me "if satellites are like contesting, I want nothing to do with it." I can usually change their mind by giving examples of more civil exchanges. If it had not been for encouragement and guidance from others with more experience, I might have been one of those frustrated stations that never tried satellites again after hearing the pileup.
We learn. We press onward.
73 Clayton W5PFG
On 2/23/2016 11:17, Kevin M via AMSAT-BB wrote:
If a station in a rare grid is on an FM satellite, running 5 watts... and he starts to have a little trouble getting into the bird to answer folks because of some interference, someone keying up, etc... when everyone starts calling him... they all keep keying up and clashing signals... NO ONE is heard and it makes matters WORSE! Just because you don't hear a signal coming back from the satellite DOES NOT MEAN that the UPLINK FREQUENCY IS CLEAR. With 5-6 stations all trying to key up and call at once, nothing gets through but noise, if that...
But one guy finally gets through and you hear him calling the station. Then everyone thinks, "Well, I'm not going to get left out, so I better get right in there!" (And to make matters worse, you give a NIIICCCE LOOOONGGG CALLLL.) Then everyone else keys up and tries... and again, nothing but noise. Until another signal dominates and gets through and here we go again... and this keeps happening over and over and over and over!
In the meantime, the poor rare grid station is trying his damnedest, but he cant get past all the strong stations calling HIM!!! The fact that YOUR station is full duplex doesn't matter... it's the same as a DX pileup on HF. YOU CAN'T HEAR HIM IF YOU KEEP CALLING!
Remember he's very likely LOW POWER! PLEASE... let the rare station RUN THE PILEUP... WAIT... LISTEN, LISTEN, LISTEN!!! It's the key to DX on HF and the same on satellites. Put your competitive, macho egos in park and let the other guy go first and finish his QSO... it's the BEST WAY to clear out the list of callers and GET YOUR CHANCE.
And another thing... It's one thing to blind call a rare station, ONCE... ONE SHORT CALL... BEFORE HE APPEARS. A way to let people on the bird know, 'Attention: rare station alert! Listen up!' But it's a completely different matter to just keep calling and calling so you can get to be the FIRST to work him... THAT'S SELFISH and RUINS it for EVERYONE! And it certainly doesn't make a bit of sense to keep calling and calling ONCE HE HAS ALREADY APPEARED ON THE PASS!!!
The simple logic boils down to this... If you keep calling, he cannot answer. And the harder you try, the more you cut your own throat. Get it?!!!
X^(
73, N4UFO
Sent via [email protected]. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Agree, Clayton.
To me, the best approach is to be a good example when live on the satellites.
There have been times when I have sent a note to an obviously new operator after a pass. The tone of the note is encouragement, with some examples of how things are done most efficiently (no CQ, no signal report, listening for a second or two after talking). That kind of written admonition seems to work best.
-- bag
Bryan KL7CN/W6
On Feb 23, 2016, at 12:02, Clayton W5PFG [email protected] wrote:
A lot of people love to claim FM transponders are the root of all evil. I find that it is operator behaviors that dictate the civility of a particular pass, not the transponder design. Many of my friends who have operated portable have made 10-20+ contacts, in an organized fashion, on a 15 minute pass. It can be done. As the old saying goes "it only takes one bad apple to spoil the bunch."
One of the unfortunate consequences of this bad behavior is the discouragement it gives to our newer operators. I have had people tell me "if satellites are like contesting, I want nothing to do with it." I can usually change their mind by giving examples of more civil exchanges. If it had not been for encouragement and guidance from others with more experience, I might have been one of those frustrated stations that never tried satellites again after hearing the pileup.
We learn. We press onward.
73 Clayton W5PFG
On 2/23/2016 11:17, Kevin M via AMSAT-BB wrote:
If a station in a rare grid is on an FM satellite, running 5 watts... and he starts to have a little trouble getting into the bird to answer folks because of some interference, someone keying up, etc... when everyone starts calling him... they all keep keying up and clashing signals... NO ONE is heard and it makes matters WORSE! Just because you don't hear a signal coming back from the satellite DOES NOT MEAN that the UPLINK FREQUENCY IS CLEAR. With 5-6 stations all trying to key up and call at once, nothing gets through but noise, if that...
But one guy finally gets through and you hear him calling the station. Then everyone thinks, "Well, I'm not going to get left out, so I better get right in there!" (And to make matters worse, you give a NIIICCCE LOOOONGGG CALLLL.) Then everyone else keys up and tries... and again, nothing but noise. Until another signal dominates and gets through and here we go again... and this keeps happening over and over and over and over!
In the meantime, the poor rare grid station is trying his damnedest, but he cant get past all the strong stations calling HIM!!! The fact that YOUR station is full duplex doesn't matter... it's the same as a DX pileup on HF. YOU CAN'T HEAR HIM IF YOU KEEP CALLING!
Remember he's very likely LOW POWER! PLEASE... let the rare station RUN THE PILEUP... WAIT... LISTEN, LISTEN, LISTEN!!! It's the key to DX on HF and the same on satellites. Put your competitive, macho egos in park and let the other guy go first and finish his QSO... it's the BEST WAY to clear out the list of callers and GET YOUR CHANCE.
And another thing... It's one thing to blind call a rare station, ONCE... ONE SHORT CALL... BEFORE HE APPEARS. A way to let people on the bird know, 'Attention: rare station alert! Listen up!' But it's a completely different matter to just keep calling and calling so you can get to be the FIRST to work him... THAT'S SELFISH and RUINS it for EVERYONE! And it certainly doesn't make a bit of sense to keep calling and calling ONCE HE HAS ALREADY APPEARED ON THE PASS!!!
The simple logic boils down to this... If you keep calling, he cannot answer. And the harder you try, the more you cut your own throat. Get it?!!!
X^(
73, N4UFO
Sent via [email protected]. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
_______________________________________________ Sent via [email protected]. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
I've operated many DX-Peditions and very many Grid Expeditionsand I regularly operate Contests from a high-profile Super-Station.Working pileups can get frustrating, but you get used to them anddevelop your own way of handling them. Often, it's difficult as the called/desired Station to pick out a Call oreven a letter or two of a Call. If I clearly copy a Call or a partial Call,I go back to THAT Call. If the pileup continues to cover the Call I wentback to, I go back to THAT Call again. Eventually, if necessary, I'llsay THAT Call "ONLY!". I've had good success doing that over theyears. If newbie Stations hear that enough, they should get the idea how thingsshould work. The watchword is LISTEN-LISTEN-LISTEN. We've allbeen "the New Guy", so we shouldn't be too harsh. You can always tell the experienced Operators. When a pileup dies down,they'll drop their Call in and get through on the first try. Give a listen andyou'll hear who they are. They've polished their technique. Operating an Expedition can be quite costly in time and money. My tripsto rare Grids in Canada can run up into the $6-700 price range and haveme on the road for over a week. With this in mind, I'm NOT going to leta handful of poor/inconsiderate Operators spoil my FUN and the desiresof Operators who follow all the "rules" and might only ever have ONEchance to work a certain Grid. I'll never "pull the plug" on an Expeditiononce I've committed to doing it. Everybody loses!!! So, as time goes on, we can only hope things will improve as Operatorshear "how things are done" as several others here have often said. 73 & C U on the Birds!!!! Bob K8BL
From: Bryan KL7CN [email protected] To: Clayton W5PFG [email protected] Cc: AMSAT BB [email protected] Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2016 3:17 PM Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Simple logic - STOP CALLING!
Agree, Clayton.
To me, the best approach is to be a good example when live on the satellites.
There have been times when I have sent a note to an obviously new operator after a pass. The tone of the note is encouragement, with some examples of how things are done most efficiently (no CQ, no signal report, listening for a second or two after talking). That kind of written admonition seems to work best.
-- bag
Bryan KL7CN/W6
On Feb 23, 2016, at 12:02, Clayton W5PFG [email protected] wrote:
A lot of people love to claim FM transponders are the root of all evil. I find that it is operator behaviors that dictate the civility of a particular pass, not the transponder design. Many of my friends who have operated portable have made 10-20+ contacts, in an organized fashion, on a 15 minute pass. It can be done. As the old saying goes "it only takes one bad apple to spoil the bunch."
One of the unfortunate consequences of this bad behavior is the discouragement it gives to our newer operators. I have had people tell me "if satellites are like contesting, I want nothing to do with it." I can usually change their mind by giving examples of more civil exchanges. If it had not been for encouragement and guidance from others with more experience, I might have been one of those frustrated stations that never tried satellites again after hearing the pileup.
We learn. We press onward.
73 Clayton W5PFG
On 2/23/2016 11:17, Kevin M via AMSAT-BB wrote:
If a station in a rare grid is on an FM satellite, running 5 watts... and he starts to have a little trouble getting into the bird to answer folks because of some interference, someone keying up, etc... when everyone starts calling him... they all keep keying up and clashing signals... NO ONE is heard and it makes matters WORSE! Just because you don't hear a signal coming back from the satellite DOES NOT MEAN that the UPLINK FREQUENCY IS CLEAR. With 5-6 stations all trying to key up and call at once, nothing gets through but noise, if that...
But one guy finally gets through and you hear him calling the station. Then everyone thinks, "Well, I'm not going to get left out, so I better get right in there!" (And to make matters worse, you give a NIIICCCE LOOOONGGG CALLLL.) Then everyone else keys up and tries... and again, nothing but noise. Until another signal dominates and gets through and here we go again... and this keeps happening over and over and over and over!
In the meantime, the poor rare grid station is trying his damnedest, but he cant get past all the strong stations calling HIM!!! The fact that YOUR station is full duplex doesn't matter... it's the same as a DX pileup on HF. YOU CAN'T HEAR HIM IF YOU KEEP CALLING!
Remember he's very likely LOW POWER! PLEASE... let the rare station RUN THE PILEUP... WAIT... LISTEN, LISTEN, LISTEN!!! It's the key to DX on HF and the same on satellites. Put your competitive, macho egos in park and let the other guy go first and finish his QSO... it's the BEST WAY to clear out the list of callers and GET YOUR CHANCE.
And another thing... It's one thing to blind call a rare station, ONCE... ONE SHORT CALL... BEFORE HE APPEARS. A way to let people on the bird know, 'Attention: rare station alert! Listen up!' But it's a completely different matter to just keep calling and calling so you can get to be the FIRST to work him... THAT'S SELFISH and RUINS it for EVERYONE! And it certainly doesn't make a bit of sense to keep calling and calling ONCE HE HAS ALREADY APPEARED ON THE PASS!!!
The simple logic boils down to this... If you keep calling, he cannot answer. And the harder you try, the more you cut your own throat. Get it?!!!
X^(
73, N4UFO
Sent via [email protected]. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
_______________________________________________ Sent via [email protected]. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
_______________________________________________ Sent via [email protected]. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
On Tue, 23 Feb 2016 12:17:41 -0800, Bryan KL7CN [email protected] wrote:
Agree, Clayton.
To me, the best approach is to be a good example when live on the satellites.
There have been times when I have sent a note to an obviously new operator after a pass. The tone of the note is encouragement, with some examples of how things are done most efficiently (no CQ, no signal report, listening for a second or two after talking). That kind of written admonition seems to work best.
If I may add my own still-meager experiences, because they have been significantly different from the prevailing "culture" of satellite operation in the United States.
I operate in Japan (PM85jl) and have worked SO-50, AO-85, and FO-29 so far. FO-29 is rather straightforward, being a SSB bird and as such is approached in the same fashion as 2m SSB phone on the ground (find a clear frequency, call/send CQ, exchange RS(T) and QTH). But while I have not yet worked any FM satellite from the US side, operating practices are apparently different from those I have observed over here -- in Japan, China, Korea, and Russia, you will often hear CQs and signal report exchanges (always 59, of course), and nobody gives grid locators. JA domestic contacts will exchange JCC numbers, but I have never obtained a grid locator from anyone, so eventually I stopped giving mine.
I also notice that FM sat passes, even SO-50 on a sunny Saturday afternoon, are less hectic than what everybody describes the US experience to be. I end up working the same people over and over, so exchanges turn out to be more of the "oh hi Bob, nice hearing you again" variety. I hope I can shake that mentality the next time I go to the US and take a stab at working SO-50 from there, because it seems an entirely different way of operating.
Regardless of which country I'm in, I still can't seem to wrap my head around the concept of right-of-way on an FM bird. I want lots of contacts, but I also don't want to hog the repeater. I throw my callsign out when I can, but if there are a lot of callers I usually shut up to avoid stepping on anyone, and end up with two or three contacts in 12 minutes. It's like walking through a room full of cats -- I'm so concentrated on not stepping on any tails that I get nothing else done.
participants (5)
-
Bryan KL7CN -
Clayton W5PFG -
J. Boyd (JR2TTS) -
Kevin M -
R.T.Liddy