I don't think we'll ever be in a position to "buy" a launch the most we will ever be able to do is hope to piggy-back with a paying customer and possibly contribute to "expenses."

Maybe having a payload "on the shelf ready" isn't such a bad plan .... if a "short window of opportunity" were to open up ... and we had nothing ready that would be an opportunity lost. Maybe we should have various payloads sitting on the shelf (cube, micro, mini, P3) just in case.

Piggy-back rides is how Amateur Radio Satellites got their start .... it's the only way to continue.

--> Rob, KA2PBT

On Fri, Sep 20, 2013 at 3:27 PM, John Stephensen kd6ozh@comcast.net wrote:

AMSAT-DL was the lead for phase 3 because they were able to get almost-free launches from ESA. However, ESA terminated that policy 10 years ago and AMSAT-DL has been trying to get government funding through their Mars program. That was rejected a year or two ago. Private launch companies are asking for $8,000,000..The world-wide fund raising by AMSAT-DL, AMSAT-UK, AMSAT-NA, AMSAT-Japan, ARRL and RSGB for each of the phase 3 launches acheived less than 10% of what is now required for a launch.

In the past, a launch opportunity was identified by ESA and then a satellite was built by AMSAT. P3E did the reverse -- building a satellite and hoping for a launch. I brought up AMSAT-DL because someone was complaining that AMSAT-NA was leading them on about HEO possibilities. They should review videos of the AMSAT-DL presentations at the annual AMSAT-UK meetings. AMSAT-NA has been much more realistic.

73,

John KD6OZH

On 20 Sep 2013 at 15:27, John Stephensen wrote:

AMSAT-DL was the lead for phase 3 because they were able to get almost-free launches from ESA. However, ESA terminated that policy 10 years ago and AMSAT-DL has been trying to get government funding through their Mars program. That was rejected a year or two ago. Private launch companies are asking for $8,000,000..The world-wide fund raising by AMSAT-DL, AMSAT-UK, AMSAT-NA, AMSAT-Japan, ARRL and RSGB for each of the phase 3 launches acheived less than 10% of what is now required for a launch.

In the past, a launch opportunity was identified by ESA and then a satellite was built by AMSAT. P3E did the reverse -- building a satellite and hoping for a launch. I brought up AMSAT-DL because someone was complaining that AMSAT-NA was leading them on about HEO possibilities. They should review videos of the AMSAT-DL presentations at the annual AMSAT-UK meetings. AMSAT-NA has been much more realistic.

73,

John KD6OZH

Unrealistic, unacheivable, impossible and so on that's what i hear since AO-40 stop working. I pledge for an AMSAT'S join funding venture years ago. Lets say 8000,000$ to reach just with the AMSAT-NA estimated membership of 3000 plus the other world AMSAT'S estimated at another 3000 making a total of 6000 contributors, who with a special annual fund raising of 200$ to pay for P3E launch, this 8 millions can reach in +/- 6 years. Is it possible to have governments paying a part of it? Making P3E a commercial sponsored satellite? What about the new rocket launching company who can piggy back P3E: Roscocosmos, Virgin,ESA. and all the ther potential contributors: university, science group of interest , cellular phone company...

If you put all various international AMSAT'S already available funds for all the different cube sats projects together, plus if we added a sound financing plan, could be more will be interested to invest more money? this 8 millions $ can probably be reach in 3 years or less. What about the BOD'S visions and planning of these AMSAT'S groups did they at least look at it?

A soon as someone try to launch an idea there is automatically someone who jump on the case accusing them to be unrealistic, dreamers and so on. It is not surprising with this attitude some of the world greatest economy struggle to survive?

Yes I know we have to pay more but it's the actual trend if we want an HEO we will have to pay more for it "No money no candy"

Be positive and work toward an already near completed satellite (P3E) that's why the BOD'S are elected to lead toward the best not the less... Yes we can someone says!

Luc Leblanc VE2DWE WAC BASIC CW PHONE SATELLITE

what would be entertaining would be marketing the Phase 3 E bus or at least parts of it to various educational institutions that want to do more science then a cubesat can do...or maybe some place, like a lunar libration point that a cubesat cannot go. the Mars thing is never going to happen but a lunar probe might...the comm payload might have to be downscaled somewhat but its a possibility Robert WB5MZO and S2 something soon

Sent from my iPad

On Sep 21, 2013, at 8:35 PM, "M5AKA" m5aka@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

...

From: "lucleblanc6 Lets say 8000,000$ to reach just with the AMSAT-NA estimated membership of 3000 plus the other world AMSAT'S estimated at another 3000 making a total of 6000 contributors, who with a special annual fund raising of 200$ to pay for P3E launch, this 8 millions can reach in +/- 6 years. ...

Nice thought Luc, but I'd query the numbers.

You suggest there may be 3000 members of AMSAT groups outside the USA/Canada, I say 700 would be a better estimate, I'd like to be proved wrong but I think you'll find a number of national AMSAT groups have a membership of fewer than 50.

The figure you quote for AMSAT-NA includes Life-members, by definition once a Life-member always a Life-member even if they gave up satellites years ago and are now living in retirement homes. AMSAT-NA sold a large number of Life-memberships in the 1970's at what now seems a very low price. I believe the number of AMSAT-NA members who actually pay an annual subscription is around 1500. A number of overseas amateurs are also AMSAT-NA members, so the number of annual subscription paying US/Canadian members will be less than 1500.

So it's likely that the world-wide total of subscription paying members of the various AMSAT groups could be under 2000. To raise $10m over six years every single one of them would have to pay $833 a year, I just can't see that happening.

The costs for launching a single P3E satellite are simply too much for AMSAT members alone to sustain, to get to amateur payloads to MEO/HEO/GEO will take collaborative ventures with other organizations, Educational, Government or Commercial.

73 Trevor M5AKA _______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb