Re: [amsat-bb] Only Half of the CubeSats Deployed into Space Work
I just attended a talk on Tuesday by professor Michael Swartwout of Saint Louis University. He maintains a database of all known Cubesats at: https://sites.google.com/a/slu.edu/swartwout/home/cubesat-database
According to his most recent data, about 25% of recent Cubesats are dead on arrival in orbit, and another 12% fail early in the mission. 50% of Cubesats are classified as fully or partially successful. He attributes this mostly to inexperienced organizations building their first satellite with little understanding of the space environment and little or no environmental testing before launch. A certain amount of first timer "we know everything" arrogance also factors into that statistic. Satellites in space definitely don't work the same as satellites on the workbench. Many of these "one and done" organizations quit building satellites after their first failure, those organizations that launch multiple Cubesats have much better success rates. Experience does count for something.
Even for tiny little Cubesats, there is a set of "best practices" that you need to pay attention to when building your satellite. If it is your organization's first satellite, you need to be mindful of what you don't know and try to learn from the experience of others.
Slides from an earlier presentation by Professor Swartwout are at: http://nepp.nasa.gov/workshops/eeesmallmissions/talks/11%20-%20THU/1300%20-%...
I expect that this year's presentation will be posted online in a few days.
Dan Schultz N8FGV
------------Original Message------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 18:54:05 +0000 (UTC) From: M5AKA m5aka@yahoo.co.uk To: AMSAT BB amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: [amsat-bb] "Only Half of the CubeSats Deployed into Space Work" Message-ID: 528856269.7643560.1466103245274.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
ARRL story quotes NASA engineer Joe Pellegrino as saying "Only Half of the CubeSats Deployed into Space Work" - is the failure rate really that high?http://www.arrl.org/news/view/stmsat-1-youngsters-told-only-half-of-the-cub esats-deployed-into-space-work
I've certainly noticed that a number of ISS deployed CubeSats using amateur frequencies which were subject to delays in the initial launch and then more delays before actual deployment have failed but it certainly didn't seem to be as high as 50%
But most ISS CubeSat deployments are not on amateur frequencies e.g. over 100 Planet Labs Dove CubeSats have been deployed. Was the NASA engineer saying that half of Planet Labs satellites failed to work?
73 Trevor M5AKA
On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 8:55 PM, Daniel Schultz n8fgv@usa.net wrote:
. 50% of Cubesats are classified as fully or partially successful.
Given that so many are built by people who are *not* *actually* rocket scientists, 50% success seems pretty good. I mean, it's not like there are astronauts on them -- failure can be an option -- but it would be prudent for organizations to keep that 50% thing in mind. Hopefully lessens the disappointment.
Oh, please. Expending all the time, effort, and money to do a project, at least try to do it right instead of launching a rock (aka space litter). Someone else working harder can use the opportunity wasted by poor quality work.
Failure is an option to be avoided insofar as possible. Just ask AMSAT developers and builders.
73, art….. W4ART Arlington VA
On 16-Jun-2016, at 10:08 PM, Peter Laws plaws0@gmail.com wrote:
On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 8:55 PM, Daniel Schultz n8fgv@usa.net wrote:
. 50% of Cubesats are classified as fully or partially successful.
Given that so many are built by people who are *not* *actually* rocket scientists, 50% success seems pretty good. I mean, it's not like there are astronauts on them -- failure can be an option -- but it would be prudent for organizations to keep that 50% thing in mind. Hopefully lessens the disappointment.
-- Peter Laws | N5UWY | plaws plaws net | Travel by Train! _______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Everyone, in some small sacred sanctuary of the self, is nuts. -Leo Rosten, author (1908-1997)
On 6/17/16, Arthur Feller afeller@ieee.org wrote:
Oh, please. Expending all the time, effort, and money to do a project, at least try to do it right instead of launching a rock (aka space litter). Someone else working harder can use the opportunity wasted by poor quality work.
Failure is an option to be avoided insofar as possible. Just ask AMSAT developers and builders.
<snip>
Two years ago, I offered to help some engineering students with their cubesat project. I figured that my experience in satellite operations as a ham plus having worked in the business for a while as an engineer, they would welcome what I had to say.
All I had was 3 meetings and I never heard from them again. I guess they had all the answers and didn't need the advice of a silverback like me.
I have no idea of they finished it or, if they did, if it even works. I don't think it'll be going into space any time soon, though, as the launch firm that I think they wanted to use may not even have a rocket. I told them that as well, but I guess they knew everything better.
73s
Bernhard VA6BMJ @ DO33FL
Thanks,
The figures from the chart show 14.8% of CubeSats fail to work on Deployment and 8% cease working shortly after Deployment.
A long way from the claimed 50% of those CubeSats actually Deployed in space don't work. 73 Trevor M5AKA
Please give the reference for "the claimed 50% of those CubeSats actually Deployed in space don't work".
Steve AI9IN
On 2016-06-17 03:44, M5AKA via AMSAT-BB wrote:
Thanks,
The figures from the chart show 14.8% of CubeSats fail to work on Deployment and 8% cease working shortly after Deployment.
A long way from the claimed 50% of those CubeSats actually Deployed in space don't work. 73 Trevor M5AKA
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Please give the reference for "the claimed 50% of those CubeSats actually Deployed in space don't work".
ARRL story http://www.arrl.org/news/stmsat-1-youngsters-told-only-half-of-the-cubesats-... Joe Pellegrino STMSAT-1 Mission Manager https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1wUmAxZJJoMUElNLWQyYktCcHc/view
73 Trevor M5AKA
On Friday, 17 June 2016, 14:17, "skristof@etczone.com" skristof@etczone.com wrote:
Please give the reference for "the claimed 50% of those CubeSats actually Deployed in space don't work".
Steve AI9IN
On 2016-06-17 03:44, M5AKA via AMSAT-BB wrote:
Thanks,
The figures from the chart show 14.8% of CubeSats fail to work on Deployment and 8% cease working shortly after Deployment.
A long way from the claimed 50% of those CubeSats actually Deployed in space don't work. 73 Trevor M5AKA
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
_______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
I've enjoyed watching some of the news published about STMSat-1. There was some false hope about it being off frequency (by 500 kHz!,) some story of "rebooting the satellite," and a lack of command and control capability. I attribute this to some of their social media posters not actually vetting their content with the project's technical champion(s). Thankfully the children of the STM School have been able to learn a great deal from this project and its sponsors deserve kudos.
In general, many of the amateur or CubeSat projects don't have much Public Relations scope beyond a webpage or Facebook. Some groups are starting to get into Twitter. Having a presence in social media or on the web is great. However, if you don't have an educated representative posting or at minimum reviewing content, the followers grow weary and start to question things. This leads to a negative PR fiasco.
It is nice to see more groups posting updates on their respective project pages and social media. Anything done to promote the hobby and bolster amateur experimentation is a win for the AMSAT community.
73 Clayton W5PFG
On 6/17/2016 08:59, M5AKA via AMSAT-BB wrote:
ARRL story http://www.arrl.org/news/stmsat-1-youngsters-told-only-half-of-the-cubesats-... Joe Pellegrino STMSAT-1 Mission Manager https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1wUmAxZJJoMUElNLWQyYktCcHc/view
73 Trevor M5AKA
I believe the original reference that started this thread is this pdf:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1wUmAxZJJoMUElNLWQyYktCcHc/view?usp=docsli... On Jun 17, 2016 9:17 AM, skristof@etczone.com wrote:
Please give the reference for "the claimed 50% of those CubeSats actually Deployed in space don't work".
Steve AI9IN
On 2016-06-17 03:44, M5AKA via AMSAT-BB wrote:
Thanks,
The figures from the chart show 14.8% of CubeSats fail to work on
Deployment and 8% cease working shortly after Deployment.
A long way from the claimed 50% of those CubeSats actually Deployed in
space don't work.
73 Trevor M5AKA
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
Opinions expressed
are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
AMSAT-NA.
Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
program!
Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Hi Dan
Many thanks for the link. It certainly makes interesting reading...at the bottom of his database is a further link to his 2016 presentation https://sites.google.com/a/slu.edu/swartwout/swartwout_cubesat_workshop_2016... that you mention.
Can we, collectively, come up with a better name than "Hobbyists" that he shows in slide 3?
73
Graham G3VZV
-----Original Message----- From: Daniel Schultz Sent: Friday, June 17, 2016 2:55 AM To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Only Half of the CubeSats Deployed into Space Work
I just attended a talk on Tuesday by professor Michael Swartwout of Saint Louis University. He maintains a database of all known Cubesats at: https://sites.google.com/a/slu.edu/swartwout/home/cubesat-database
According to his most recent data, about 25% of recent Cubesats are dead on arrival in orbit, and another 12% fail early in the mission. 50% of Cubesats are classified as fully or partially successful. He attributes this mostly to inexperienced organizations building their first satellite with little understanding of the space environment and little or no environmental testing before launch. A certain amount of first timer "we know everything" arrogance also factors into that statistic. Satellites in space definitely don't work the same as satellites on the workbench. Many of these "one and done" organizations quit building satellites after their first failure, those organizations that launch multiple Cubesats have much better success rates. Experience does count for something.
Even for tiny little Cubesats, there is a set of "best practices" that you need to pay attention to when building your satellite. If it is your organization's first satellite, you need to be mindful of what you don't know and try to learn from the experience of others.
Slides from an earlier presentation by Professor Swartwout are at: http://nepp.nasa.gov/workshops/eeesmallmissions/talks/11%20-%20THU/1300%20-%...
I expect that this year's presentation will be posted online in a few days.
Dan Schultz N8FGV
------------Original Message------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 18:54:05 +0000 (UTC) From: M5AKA m5aka@yahoo.co.uk To: AMSAT BB amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: [amsat-bb] "Only Half of the CubeSats Deployed into Space Work" Message-ID: 528856269.7643560.1466103245274.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
ARRL story quotes NASA engineer Joe Pellegrino as saying "Only Half of the CubeSats Deployed into Space Work" - is the failure rate really that high?http://www.arrl.org/news/view/stmsat-1-youngsters-told-only-half-of-the-cub esats-deployed-into-space-work
I've certainly noticed that a number of ISS deployed CubeSats using amateur frequencies which were subject to delays in the initial launch and then more delays before actual deployment have failed but it certainly didn't seem to be as high as 50%
But most ISS CubeSat deployments are not on amateur frequencies e.g. over 100 Planet Labs Dove CubeSats have been deployed. Was the NASA engineer saying that half of Planet Labs satellites failed to work?
73 Trevor M5AKA
_______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
What is the problem with using the term "hobbyist"? Amateur radio is a hobby. Nothing wrong with that.
A person may take his/her hobby so seriously that they neglect work, friends, and family, but if you're not getting paid for it, it's still a hobby.
Hobbyists can still do good work in their field of interest. Amateur astronomers (hobbyists) are making significant contributions to astronomical knowledge all the time.
Check out hamsci.org to see how amateur radio hobbyists can help with ionospheric science.
Steve AI9IN
On 2016-06-17 04:01, Graham Shirville wrote:
Hi Dan
Many thanks for the link. It certainly makes interesting reading...at the bottom of his database is a further link to his 2016 presentation https://sites.google.com/a/slu.edu/swartwout/swartwout_cubesat_workshop_2016... that you mention.
Can we, collectively, come up with a better name than "Hobbyists" that he shows in slide 3?
73
Graham G3VZV
-----Original Message----- From: Daniel Schultz Sent: Friday, June 17, 2016 2:55 AM To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Only Half of the CubeSats Deployed into Space Work
I just attended a talk on Tuesday by professor Michael Swartwout of Saint Louis University. He maintains a database of all known Cubesats at: https://sites.google.com/a/slu.edu/swartwout/home/cubesat-database
According to his most recent data, about 25% of recent Cubesats are dead on arrival in orbit, and another 12% fail early in the mission. 50% of Cubesats are classified as fully or partially successful. He attributes this mostly to inexperienced organizations building their first satellite with little understanding of the space environment and little or no environmental testing before launch. A certain amount of first timer "we know everything" arrogance also factors into that statistic. Satellites in space definitely don't work the same as satellites on the workbench. Many of these "one and done" organizations quit building satellites after their first failure, those organizations that launch multiple Cubesats have much better success rates. Experience does count for something.
Even for tiny little Cubesats, there is a set of "best practices" that you need to pay attention to when building your satellite. If it is your organization's first satellite, you need to be mindful of what you don't know and try to learn from the experience of others.
Slides from an earlier presentation by Professor Swartwout are at: http://nepp.nasa.gov/workshops/eeesmallmissions/talks/11%20-%20THU/1300%20-%...
I expect that this year's presentation will be posted online in a few days.
Dan Schultz N8FGV
------------Original Message------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 18:54:05 +0000 (UTC) From: M5AKA m5aka@yahoo.co.uk To: AMSAT BB amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: [amsat-bb] "Only Half of the CubeSats Deployed into Space Work" Message-ID: 528856269.7643560.1466103245274.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
ARRL story quotes NASA engineer Joe Pellegrino as saying "Only Half of the CubeSats Deployed into Space Work" - is the failure rate really that high?http://www.arrl.org/news/view/stmsat-1-youngsters-told-only-half-of-the-cub esats-deployed-into-space-work
I've certainly noticed that a number of ISS deployed CubeSats using amateur frequencies which were subject to delays in the initial launch and then more delays before actual deployment have failed but it certainly didn't seem to be as high as 50%
But most ISS CubeSat deployments are not on amateur frequencies e.g. over 100 Planet Labs Dove CubeSats have been deployed. Was the NASA engineer saying that half of Planet Labs satellites failed to work?
73 Trevor M5AKA
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb _______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
"Hobbyists" is correct, but often negatively connoted.
"Radio experimenters" describes what we do, be it DX-ing or building satellites.
Gaston ON4WF
------ Message d'origine ------ De : skristof@etczone.com À : amsat-bb@amsat.org Envoyé 17-06-16 13:28:26 Objet : Re: [amsat-bb] Only Half of the CubeSats Deployed into Space Work
What is the problem with using the term "hobbyist"? Amateur radio is a hobby. Nothing wrong with that.
A person may take his/her hobby so seriously that they neglect work, friends, and family, but if you're not getting paid for it, it's still a hobby.
Hobbyists can still do good work in their field of interest. Amateur astronomers (hobbyists) are making significant contributions to astronomical knowledge all the time.
Check out hamsci.org to see how amateur radio hobbyists can help with ionospheric science.
Steve AI9IN
On 2016-06-17 04:01, Graham Shirville wrote:
Hi Dan
Many thanks for the link. It certainly makes interesting reading...at the bottom of his database is a further link to his 2016 presentation https://sites.google.com/a/slu.edu/swartwout/swartwout_cubesat_workshop_2016... that you mention.
Can we, collectively, come up with a better name than "Hobbyists" that he shows in slide 3?
73
Graham G3VZV
-----Original Message----- From: Daniel Schultz Sent: Friday, June 17, 2016 2:55 AM To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Only Half of the CubeSats Deployed into Space Work
I just attended a talk on Tuesday by professor Michael Swartwout of Saint Louis University. He maintains a database of all known Cubesats at: https://sites.google.com/a/slu.edu/swartwout/home/cubesat-database
According to his most recent data, about 25% of recent Cubesats are dead on arrival in orbit, and another 12% fail early in the mission. 50% of Cubesats are classified as fully or partially successful. He attributes this mostly to inexperienced organizations building their first satellite with little understanding of the space environment and little or no environmental testing before launch. A certain amount of first timer "we know everything" arrogance also factors into that statistic. Satellites in space definitely don't work the same as satellites on the workbench. Many of these "one and done" organizations quit building satellites after their first failure, those organizations that launch multiple Cubesats have much better success rates. Experience does count for something.
Even for tiny little Cubesats, there is a set of "best practices" that you need to pay attention to when building your satellite. If it is your organization's first satellite, you need to be mindful of what you don't know and try to learn from the experience of others.
Slides from an earlier presentation by Professor Swartwout are at:
http://nepp.nasa.gov/workshops/eeesmallmissions/talks/11%20-%20THU/1300%20-%...
I expect that this year's presentation will be posted online in a few days.
Dan Schultz N8FGV
------------Original Message------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 18:54:05 +0000 (UTC) From: M5AKA m5aka@yahoo.co.uk To: AMSAT BB amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: [amsat-bb] "Only Half of the CubeSats Deployed into Space Work" Message-ID: 528856269.7643560.1466103245274.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
ARRL story quotes NASA engineer Joe Pellegrino as saying "Only Half of the CubeSats Deployed into Space Work" - is the failure rate really that
high?http://www.arrl.org/news/view/stmsat-1-youngsters-told-only-half-of-the-cub esats-deployed-into-space-work
I've certainly noticed that a number of ISS deployed CubeSats using amateur frequencies which were subject to delays in the initial launch and then more delays before actual deployment have failed but it certainly didn't seem to be as high as 50%
But most ISS CubeSat deployments are not on amateur frequencies e.g. over 100 Planet Labs Dove CubeSats have been deployed. Was the NASA engineer saying that half of Planet Labs satellites failed to work?
73 Trevor M5AKA
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb _______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
participants (10)
-
Arthur Feller -
B J -
Clayton W5PFG -
Daniel Schultz -
Gaston Bertels -
Graham Shirville -
John Brier -
M5AKA -
Peter Laws -
skristof＠etczone.com