FT4 and CW on RS-44
FT4 activity on RS-44 has been increasing. FT4 can be heard just about everywhere in the passband and this can create problems for SSB and CW users. I have heard FT4 around 435668, 64x,639 and 620. The HF bands are divided into mode segments so CW,SSB and Digital are not in the same areas. On RS-44 there are no segments so it is all modes everywhere. Several days ago I listened to WB9YIG trying to work N1DM around 435639, but every time N1DM would give his callsign a FT4 signal would be on top of him. They finally gave up. I doubt if it was intentional. The FT4 computer was just doing what it was programmed to do. The operator may have not even been listening (not a good idea on sats). Also keep in mind that a FT4 signal is key down continuous carrier, much more demanding on satellite power than SSB or to some extent CW. The beauty of FT4 is supposed to be that you don't need a strong signal to decode, so flea power should work well.
It would be good if all the FT4 operations would move to one area on the transponder. I suggest 435610-435620 because it is the least used area. The top end has become very crowded lately due to some rovers operating in that area. This has encouraged others to operate there as well. Maybe some others have a better suggestion.
FT4 is not the only issue on RS-44. CW activity has been increasing as well. CW and SSB can co-exist, however, CW ops cannot be using CW filters and expect not to interfere with SSB stations. Again we don't have a CW segment so using CW filters are not going to be appropriate. Please use a SSB RX filter when operating CW and make sure you don't hear SSB in your passband before starting up. Same for SSB stations. Don't start up if you hear CW in your passband. Just move to a clear spot.
If you are not computer conrtolled for doppler, you are going to be moving in the passband. And you are likely going to slide into another QSO, especially now that RS-44 activity has increased. Please try to keep your position in the passband stable. If your radio can be computer controlled, please take advantage of that so that you don't move. You never have to send dits, whistle or blow into the mic when you are computer controlled. And you won't be transmitting on top of somebody.
Just my opinion of course.
73, John K8YSE
Hello John
I'm totally agree with you, we were talking about that in our local sat group and we have to lay the foundations for proper transponder management before everyone become crazy.
Maybe a general "band plan" for all the SATs will be a solution......
My two cents
Rick EA4M
On Mon, Aug 23, 2021, 17:48 john@papays.com wrote:
FT4 activity on RS-44 has been increasing. FT4 can be heard just about everywhere in the passband and this can create problems for SSB and CW users. I have heard FT4 around 435668, 64x,639 and 620. The HF bands are divided into mode segments so CW,SSB and Digital are not in the same areas. On RS-44 there are no segments so it is all modes everywhere. Several days ago I listened to WB9YIG trying to work N1DM around 435639, but every time N1DM would give his callsign a FT4 signal would be on top of him. They finally gave up. I doubt if it was intentional. The FT4 computer was just doing what it was programmed to do. The operator may have not even been listening (not a good idea on sats). Also keep in mind that a FT4 signal is key down continuous carrier, much more demanding on satellite power than SSB or to some extent CW. The beauty of FT4 is supposed to be that you don't need a strong signal to decode, so flea power should work well.
It would be good if all the FT4 operations would move to one area on the transponder. I suggest 435610-435620 because it is the least used area. The top end has become very crowded lately due to some rovers operating in that area. This has encouraged others to operate there as well. Maybe some others have a better suggestion.
FT4 is not the only issue on RS-44. CW activity has been increasing as well. CW and SSB can co-exist, however, CW ops cannot be using CW filters and expect not to interfere with SSB stations. Again we don't have a CW segment so using CW filters are not going to be appropriate. Please use a SSB RX filter when operating CW and make sure you don't hear SSB in your passband before starting up. Same for SSB stations. Don't start up if you hear CW in your passband. Just move to a clear spot.
If you are not computer conrtolled for doppler, you are going to be moving in the passband. And you are likely going to slide into another QSO, especially now that RS-44 activity has increased. Please try to keep your position in the passband stable. If your radio can be computer controlled, please take advantage of that so that you don't move. You never have to send dits, whistle or blow into the mic when you are computer controlled. And you won't be transmitting on top of somebody.
Just my opinion of course.
73, John K8YSE
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On 08/23/21 10:53, Ricardo Navarrete wrote:
Maybe a general "band plan" for all the SATs will be a solution......
I think this is an excellent idea, given the proliferation of modes which are now available.
Guidelines such as these should take into account the benefit of forward error correction (FEC) coding on required uplink signal power _at the satellite_.
This is to say that less received power (transmitter power + antenna gain - path loss) can be used by stations employing FEC-coded protocols. This will reduce the overall load on the transponder.
In essence, a bit more power burned by your 20-core PC on the ground to encode/decode results in better power usage for everyone at the satellite!
--- Zach N0ZGO
For a great many years, operation with key down continuous power was strongly discouraged on the linear transponder sats precisely because such modes hogged the sat's power. There is so much activity on the FT modes, however, that John is probably right that it's time to revisit that idea. Not only should a digital band segment be identified as John suggests, but a simple means of holding down power output should be adopted. Here's one idea. Since CW has approximately a 50% duty cycle, why not take your CW power and cut it in half for use on FT4? 73 Ray W2RS
-----Original Message-----From: Ricardo Navarrete ricardoea4zk@gmail.com To: john@papays.com Cc: Amsat BB amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Mon, Aug 23, 2021 8:53 am Subject: [AMSAT-BB] Re: FT4 and CW on RS-44 's Hello Johnth I'm totally agree with you, we were talking about that in our local sat group and we have to lay the foundations for proper transponder management before everyone become crazy. Maybe a general "band plan" for all the SATs will be a solution...... My two cents Rick EA4M On Mon, Aug 23, 2021, 17:48 john@papays.com wrote:
FT4 activity on RS-44 has been increasing. FT4 can be heard just about everywhere in the passband and this can create problems for SSB and CW users. I have heard FT4 around 435668, 64x,639 and 620. The HF bands are divided into mode segments so CW,SSB and Digital are not in the same areas. On RS-44 there are no segments so it is all modes everywhere. Several days ago I listened to WB9YIG trying to work N1DM around 435639, but every time N1DM would give his callsign a FT4 signal would be on top of him. They finally gave up. I doubt if it was intentional. The FT4 computer was just doing what it was programmed to do. The operator may have not even been listening (not a good idea on sats). Also keep in mind that a FT4 signal is key down continuous carrier, much more demanding on satellite power than SSB or to some extent CW. The beauty of FT4 is supposed to be that you don't need a strong signal to decode, so flea power should work well.It would be good if all the FT4 operations would move to one area on the transponder. I suggest 435610-435620 because it is the least used area. The top end has become very crowded lately due to some rovers operating in that area. This has encouraged others to operate there as well. Maybe some others have a better suggestion.FT4 is not the only issue on RS-44. CW activity has been increasing as well. CW and SSB can co-exist, however, CW ops cannot be using CW filters and expect not to interfere with SSB stations. Again we don't have a CW segment so using CW filters are not going to be appropriate. Please use a SSB RX filter when operating CW and make sure you don't hear SSB in your passband before starting up. Same for SSB stations. Don't start up if you hear CW in your passband. Just move to a clear spot.If you are not computer conrtolled for doppler, you are going to be moving in the passband. And you are likely going to slide into another QSO, especially now that RS-44 activity has increased. Please try to keep your position in the passband stable. If your radio can be computer controlled, please take advantage of that so that you don't move. You never have to send dits, whistle or blow into the mic when you are computer controlled. And you won't be transmitting on top of somebody.Just my opinion of course. 73, John K8YSE
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Hear hear!
On Mon, Aug 23, 2021 at 12:30 PM Ray Soifer via AMSAT-BB amsat-bb@amsat.org wrote:
For a great many years, operation with key down continuous power was strongly discouraged on the linear transponder sats precisely because such modes hogged the sat's power. There is so much activity on the FT modes, however, that John is probably right that it's time to revisit that idea. Not only should a digital band segment be identified as John suggests, but a simple means of holding down power output should be adopted. Here's one idea. Since CW has approximately a 50% duty cycle, why not take your CW power and cut it in half for use on FT4?
73 Ray W2RS
-----Original Message----- From: Ricardo Navarrete ricardoea4zk@gmail.com To: john@papays.com Cc: Amsat BB amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Mon, Aug 23, 2021 8:53 am Subject: [AMSAT-BB] Re: FT4 and CW on RS-44 's Hello John th I'm totally agree with you, we were talking about that in our local sat group and we have to lay the foundations for proper transponder management before everyone become crazy.
Maybe a general "band plan" for all the SATs will be a solution......
My two cents
Rick EA4M
On Mon, Aug 23, 2021, 17:48 john@papays.com wrote:
FT4 activity on RS-44 has been increasing. FT4 can be heard just about everywhere in the passband and this can create problems for SSB and CW users. I have heard FT4 around 435668, 64x,639 and 620. The HF bands are divided into mode segments so CW,SSB and Digital are not in the same areas. On RS-44 there are no segments so it is all modes everywhere. Several days ago I listened to WB9YIG trying to work N1DM around 435639, but every time N1DM would give his callsign a FT4 signal would be on top of him. They finally gave up. I doubt if it was intentional. The FT4 computer was just doing what it was programmed to do. The operator may have not even been listening (not a good idea on sats). Also keep in mind that a FT4 signal is key down continuous carrier, much more demanding on satellite power than SSB or to some extent CW. The beauty of FT4 is supposed to be that you don't need a strong signal to decode, so flea power should work well. It would be good if all the FT4 operations would move to one area on the transponder. I suggest 435610-435620 because it is the least used area. The top end has become very crowded lately due to some rovers operating in that area. This has encouraged others to operate there as well. Maybe some others have a better suggestion. FT4 is not the only issue on RS-44. CW activity has been increasing as well. CW and SSB can co-exist, however, CW ops cannot be using CW filters and expect not to interfere with SSB stations. Again we don't have a CW segment so using CW filters are not going to be appropriate. Please use a SSB RX filter when operating CW and make sure you don't hear SSB in your passband before starting up. Same for SSB stations. Don't start up if you hear CW in your passband. Just move to a clear spot. If you are not computer conrtolled for doppler, you are going to be moving in the passband. And you are likely going to slide into another QSO, especially now that RS-44 activity has increased. Please try to keep your position in the passband stable. If your radio can be computer controlled, please take advantage of that so that you don't move. You never have to send dits, whistle or blow into the mic when you are computer controlled. And you won't be transmitting on top of somebody. Just my opinion of course. 73, John K8YSE
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Hi all, those suggestions are right, the aproach of a band plan can help a lot, nevertheless as others mentioned, all the actions we decide to do will be effective if we follow the rule of listen before TX, I do FT-4, and CW, and with a full duplex station there is no way you make interference and if you doit is intentional.
Regarding the power, FT4 can run with less power than cw and ssb, I have made qso's with 0% of the power of the rig, but again, if we abuse about the power of TX no matter the mode we used, we will hogged the sat power.
Respect, Improve our operating skills and a band plan will work very good.
73 Bert / XE1HG
________________________________ De: Robert McGwier rwmcgwier@gmail.com Enviado: lunes, 23 de agosto de 2021 06:53 p. m. Para: Ray Soifer rsoifer1@aol.com CC: ricardoea4zk@gmail.com ricardoea4zk@gmail.com; john@papays.com john@papays.com; amsat-bb@amsat.org amsat-bb@amsat.org Asunto: [AMSAT-BB] Re: FT4 and CW on RS-44\
Hear hear!
On Mon, Aug 23, 2021 at 12:30 PM Ray Soifer via AMSAT-BB <amsat-bb@amsat.orgmailto:amsat-bb@amsat.org> wrote: For a great many years, operation with key down continuous power was strongly discouraged on the linear transponder sats precisely because such modes hogged the sat's power. There is so much activity on the FT modes, however, that John is probably right that it's time to revisit that idea. Not only should a digital band segment be identified as John suggests, but a simple means of holding down power output should be adopted. Here's one idea. Since CW has approximately a 50% duty cycle, why not take your CW power and cut it in half for use on FT4?
73 Ray W2RS
-----Original Message----- From: Ricardo Navarrete <ricardoea4zk@gmail.commailto:ricardoea4zk@gmail.com> To: john@papays.commailto:john@papays.com Cc: Amsat BB <amsat-bb@amsat.orgmailto:amsat-bb@amsat.org> Sent: Mon, Aug 23, 2021 8:53 am Subject: [AMSAT-BB] Re: FT4 and CW on RS-44 's Hello John th I'm totally agree with you, we were talking about that in our local sat group and we have to lay the foundations for proper transponder management before everyone become crazy.
Maybe a general "band plan" for all the SATs will be a solution......
My two cents
Rick EA4M
On Mon, Aug 23, 2021, 17:48 <john@papays.commailto:john@papays.com> wrote: FT4 activity on RS-44 has been increasing. FT4 can be heard just about everywhere in the passband and this can create problems for SSB and CW users. I have heard FT4 around 435668, 64x,639 and 620. The HF bands are divided into mode segments so CW,SSB and Digital are not in the same areas. On RS-44 there are no segments so it is all modes everywhere. Several days ago I listened to WB9YIG trying to work N1DM around 435639, but every time N1DM would give his callsign a FT4 signal would be on top of him. They finally gave up. I doubt if it was intentional. The FT4 computer was just doing what it was programmed to do. The operator may have not even been listening (not a good idea on sats). Also keep in mind that a FT4 signal is key down continuous carrier, much more demanding on satellite power than SSB or to some extent CW. The beauty of FT4 is supposed to be that you don't need a strong signal to decode, so flea power should work well. It would be good if all the FT4 operations would move to one area on the transponder. I suggest 435610-435620 because it is the least used area. The top end has become very crowded lately due to some rovers operating in that area. This has encouraged others to operate there as well. Maybe some others have a better suggestion. FT4 is not the only issue on RS-44. CW activity has been increasing as well. CW and SSB can co-exist, however, CW ops cannot be using CW filters and expect not to interfere with SSB stations. Again we don't have a CW segment so using CW filters are not going to be appropriate. Please use a SSB RX filter when operating CW and make sure you don't hear SSB in your passband before starting up. Same for SSB stations. Don't start up if you hear CW in your passband. Just move to a clear spot. If you are not computer conrtolled for doppler, you are going to be moving in the passband. And you are likely going to slide into another QSO, especially now that RS-44 activity has increased. Please try to keep your position in the passband stable. If your radio can be computer controlled, please take advantage of that so that you don't move. You never have to send dits, whistle or blow into the mic when you are computer controlled. And you won't be transmitting on top of somebody. Just my opinion of course. 73, John K8YSE
-----------------------------------------------------------
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-- Dr. Robert W McGwier, Ph.D. Adjunct Faculty, Virginia Tech ARDC Member of Board N4HY: ARRL, TAPR, AMSAT, EARC Sky: AAVSO, SkyHub, Auburn AS, Skyscrapers
BTW I can't understand the use if FT4 in satellite even in HF.... I always thought that FTx modes where developed for extremely bad propagation conditions or for those who have a very poor setup to help them enjoying ham radio, I could accept FT4 in satellites to complete a extreme QSO under negative elevation in both sides but not to have a simple QSO in a good pass or with a normal setup.
It is just my opinion..
On Mon, Aug 23, 2021, 21:15 Humberto González xe1fze@hotmail.com wrote:
Hi all, those suggestions are right, the aproach of a band plan can help a lot, nevertheless as others mentioned, all the actions we decide to do will be effective if we follow the rule of listen before TX, I do FT-4, and CW, and with a full duplex station there is no way you make interference and if you doit is intentional.
Regarding the power, FT4 can run with less power than cw and ssb, I have made qso's with 0% of the power of the rig, but again, if we abuse about the power of TX no matter the mode we used, we will hogged the sat power.
Respect, Improve our operating skills and a band plan will work very good.
73 Bert / XE1HG
*De:* Robert McGwier rwmcgwier@gmail.com *Enviado:* lunes, 23 de agosto de 2021 06:53 p. m. *Para:* Ray Soifer rsoifer1@aol.com *CC:* ricardoea4zk@gmail.com ricardoea4zk@gmail.com; john@papays.com < john@papays.com>; amsat-bb@amsat.org amsat-bb@amsat.org *Asunto:* [AMSAT-BB] Re: FT4 and CW on RS-44\
Hear hear!
On Mon, Aug 23, 2021 at 12:30 PM Ray Soifer via AMSAT-BB < amsat-bb@amsat.org> wrote:
For a great many years, operation with key down continuous power was strongly discouraged on the linear transponder sats precisely because such modes hogged the sat's power. There is so much activity on the FT modes, however, that John is probably right that it's time to revisit that idea. Not only should a digital band segment be identified as John suggests, but a simple means of holding down power output should be adopted. Here's one idea. Since CW has approximately a 50% duty cycle, why not take your CW power and cut it in half for use on FT4?
73 Ray W2RS
-----Original Message----- From: Ricardo Navarrete ricardoea4zk@gmail.com To: john@papays.com Cc: Amsat BB amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Mon, Aug 23, 2021 8:53 am Subject: [AMSAT-BB] Re: FT4 and CW on RS-44 's Hello John th I'm totally agree with you, we were talking about that in our local sat group and we have to lay the foundations for proper transponder management before everyone become crazy.
Maybe a general "band plan" for all the SATs will be a solution......
My two cents
Rick EA4M
On Mon, Aug 23, 2021, 17:48 john@papays.com wrote:
FT4 activity on RS-44 has been increasing. FT4 can be heard just about everywhere in the passband and this can create problems for SSB and CW users. I have heard FT4 around 435668, 64x,639 and 620. The HF bands are divided into mode segments so CW,SSB and Digital are not in the same areas. On RS-44 there are no segments so it is all modes everywhere. Several days ago I listened to WB9YIG trying to work N1DM around 435639, but every time N1DM would give his callsign a FT4 signal would be on top of him. They finally gave up. I doubt if it was intentional. The FT4 computer was just doing what it was programmed to do. The operator may have not even been listening (not a good idea on sats). Also keep in mind that a FT4 signal is key down continuous carrier, much more demanding on satellite power than SSB or to some extent CW. The beauty of FT4 is supposed to be that you don't need a strong signal to decode, so flea power should work well. It would be good if all the FT4 operations would move to one area on the transponder. I suggest 435610-435620 because it is the least used area. The top end has become very crowded lately due to some rovers operating in that area. This has encouraged others to operate there as well. Maybe some others have a better suggestion. FT4 is not the only issue on RS-44. CW activity has been increasing as well. CW and SSB can co-exist, however, CW ops cannot be using CW filters and expect not to interfere with SSB stations. Again we don't have a CW segment so using CW filters are not going to be appropriate. Please use a SSB RX filter when operating CW and make sure you don't hear SSB in your passband before starting up. Same for SSB stations. Don't start up if you hear CW in your passband. Just move to a clear spot. If you are not computer conrtolled for doppler, you are going to be moving in the passband. And you are likely going to slide into another QSO, especially now that RS-44 activity has increased. Please try to keep your position in the passband stable. If your radio can be computer controlled, please take advantage of that so that you don't move. You never have to send dits, whistle or blow into the mic when you are computer controlled. And you won't be transmitting on top of somebody. Just my opinion of course. 73, John K8YSE
Sent via AMSAT-BB(a)amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Acceptable Use and Privacy Policies available at https://www.amsat.org/about-amsat/
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Sent via AMSAT-BB(a)amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Acceptable Use and Privacy Policies available at https://www.amsat.org/about-amsat/
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Sent via AMSAT-BB(a)amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Acceptable Use and Privacy Policies available at https://www.amsat.org/about-amsat/
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-- Dr. Robert W McGwier, Ph.D. Adjunct Faculty, Virginia Tech ARDC Member of Board N4HY: ARRL, TAPR, AMSAT, EARC Sky: AAVSO, SkyHub, Auburn AS, Skyscrapers
Rick EA4M, My understanding is that FT4 was developed to provide QSOs in half the time as FT8especially for Digital Contesting. But, it makes more sense for SAT operating sinceQSOs need to be quicker due to the several propagation issues that occur. Perhapsagreed-upon freqs need to be implemented to promote sharing of the Bandpass withouttoo much interference. GL/73, Bob K8BL
On Monday, August 23, 2021, 03:50:39 PM EDT, Ricardo Navarrete ricardoea4zk@gmail.com wrote:
BTW I can't understand the use if FT4 in satellite even in HF.... I always thought that FTx modes where developed for extremely bad propagation conditions or for those who have a very poor setup to help them enjoying ham radio, I could accept FT4 in satellites to complete a extreme QSO under negative elevation in both sides but not to have a simple QSO in a good pass or with a normal setup. It is just my opinion.. On Mon, Aug 23, 2021, 21:15 Humberto González xe1fze@hotmail.com wrote:
Hi all, those suggestions are right, the aproach of a band plan can help a lot, nevertheless as others mentioned, all the actions we decide to do will be effective if we follow the rule of listen before TX, I do FT-4, and CW, and with a full duplex station there is no way you make interference and if you doit is intentional. Regarding the power, FT4 can run with less power than cw and ssb, I have made qso's with 0% of the power of the rig, but again, if we abuse about the power of TX no matter the mode we used, we will hogged the sat power. Respect, Improve our operating skills and a band plan will work very good. 73Bert / XE1HG De: Robert McGwier rwmcgwier@gmail.com Enviado: lunes, 23 de agosto de 2021 06:53 p. m. Para: Ray Soifer rsoifer1@aol.com CC: ricardoea4zk@gmail.com ricardoea4zk@gmail.com; john@papays.com john@papays.com; amsat-bb@amsat.org amsat-bb@amsat.org Asunto: [AMSAT-BB] Re: FT4 and CW on RS-44\ Hear hear! On Mon, Aug 23, 2021 at 12:30 PM Ray Soifer via AMSAT-BB amsat-bb@amsat.org wrote:
For a great many years, operation with key down continuous power was strongly discouraged on the linear transponder sats precisely because such modes hogged the sat's power. There is so much activity on the FT modes, however, that John is probably right that it's time to revisit that idea. Not only should a digital band segment be identified as John suggests, but a simple means of holding down power output should be adopted. Here's one idea. Since CW has approximately a 50% duty cycle, why not take your CW power and cut it in half for use on FT4? 73 Ray W2RS
-----Original Message-----From: Ricardo Navarrete ricardoea4zk@gmail.com To: john@papays.com Cc: Amsat BB amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Mon, Aug 23, 2021 8:53 am Subject: [AMSAT-BB] Re: FT4 and CW on RS-44 's Hello Johnth I'm totally agree with you, we were talking about that in our local sat group and we have to lay the foundations for proper transponder management before everyone become crazy. Maybe a general "band plan" for all the SATs will be a solution...... My two cents Rick EA4M On Mon, Aug 23, 2021, 17:48 john@papays.com wrote:
FT4 activity on RS-44 has been increasing. FT4 can be heard just about everywhere in the passband and this can create problems for SSB and CW users. I have heard FT4 around 435668, 64x,639 and 620. The HF bands are divided into mode segments so CW,SSB and Digital are not in the same areas. On RS-44 there are no segments so it is all modes everywhere. Several days ago I listened to WB9YIG trying to work N1DM around 435639, but every time N1DM would give his callsign a FT4 signal would be on top of him. They finally gave up. I doubt if it was intentional. The FT4 computer was just doing what it was programmed to do. The operator may have not even been listening (not a good idea on sats). Also keep in mind that a FT4 signal is key down continuous carrier, much more demanding on satellite power than SSB or to some extent CW. The beauty of FT4 is supposed to be that you don't need a strong signal to decode, so flea power should work well.It would be good if all the FT4 operations would move to one area on the transponder. I suggest 435610-435620 because it is the least used area. The top end has become very crowded lately due to some rovers operating in that area. This has encouraged others to operate there as well. Maybe some others have a better suggestion.FT4 is not the only issue on RS-44. CW activity has been increasing as well. CW and SSB can co-exist, however, CW ops cannot be using CW filters and expect not to interfere with SSB stations. Again we don't have a CW segment so using CW filters are not going to be appropriate. Please use a SSB RX filter when operating CW and make sure you don't hear SSB in your passband before starting up. Same for SSB stations. Don't start up if you hear CW in your passband. Just move to a clear spot.If you are not computer conrtolled for doppler, you are going to be moving in the passband. And you are likely going to slide into another QSO, especially now that RS-44 activity has increased. Please try to keep your position in the passband stable. If your radio can be computer controlled, please take advantage of that so that you don't move. You never have to send dits, whistle or blow into the mic when you are computer controlled. And you won't be transmitting on top of somebody.Just my opinion of course. 73, John K8YSE
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Probably you are right Bob, bit this is extracted from author web page.....
FT4 and FT8 are digital protocols designed for rapid and accurate communication between amateur radio stations, particularly in weak- signal conditions.
That is what I said that this protocol is good in very low.angle passes but it has non sense over medium-low or medium angle passes.
One thing I'm completely sure, we need something similar to a band plan, order and method keep things in place.....
73
On Mon, Aug 23, 2021, 23:47 Bob Liddy (K8BL) k8bl@ameritech.net wrote:
Rick EA4M,
My understanding is that FT4 was developed to provide QSOs in half the time as FT8 especially for Digital Contesting. But, it makes more sense for SAT operating since QSOs need to be quicker due to the several propagation issues that occur. Perhaps agreed-upon freqs need to be implemented to promote sharing of the Bandpass without too much interference.
GL/73, Bob K8BL
On Monday, August 23, 2021, 03:50:39 PM EDT, Ricardo Navarrete < ricardoea4zk@gmail.com> wrote:
BTW I can't understand the use if FT4 in satellite even in HF.... I always thought that FTx modes where developed for extremely bad propagation conditions or for those who have a very poor setup to help them enjoying ham radio, I could accept FT4 in satellites to complete a extreme QSO under negative elevation in both sides but not to have a simple QSO in a good pass or with a normal setup.
It is just my opinion..
On Mon, Aug 23, 2021, 21:15 Humberto González xe1fze@hotmail.com wrote:
Hi all, those suggestions are right, the aproach of a band plan can help a lot, nevertheless as others mentioned, all the actions we decide to do will be effective if we follow the rule of listen before TX, I do FT-4, and CW, and with a full duplex station there is no way you make interference and if you doit is intentional.
Regarding the power, FT4 can run with less power than cw and ssb, I have made qso's with 0% of the power of the rig, but again, if we abuse about the power of TX no matter the mode we used, we will hogged the sat power.
Respect, Improve our operating skills and a band plan will work very good.
73 Bert / XE1HG
*De:* Robert McGwier rwmcgwier@gmail.com *Enviado:* lunes, 23 de agosto de 2021 06:53 p. m. *Para:* Ray Soifer rsoifer1@aol.com *CC:* ricardoea4zk@gmail.com ricardoea4zk@gmail.com; john@papays.com < john@papays.com>; amsat-bb@amsat.org amsat-bb@amsat.org *Asunto:* [AMSAT-BB] Re: FT4 and CW on RS-44\
Hear hear!
On Mon, Aug 23, 2021 at 12:30 PM Ray Soifer via AMSAT-BB < amsat-bb@amsat.org> wrote:
For a great many years, operation with key down continuous power was strongly discouraged on the linear transponder sats precisely because such modes hogged the sat's power. There is so much activity on the FT modes, however, that John is probably right that it's time to revisit that idea. Not only should a digital band segment be identified as John suggests, but a simple means of holding down power output should be adopted. Here's one idea. Since CW has approximately a 50% duty cycle, why not take your CW power and cut it in half for use on FT4?
73 Ray W2RS
-----Original Message----- From: Ricardo Navarrete ricardoea4zk@gmail.com To: john@papays.com Cc: Amsat BB amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Mon, Aug 23, 2021 8:53 am Subject: [AMSAT-BB] Re: FT4 and CW on RS-44 's Hello John th I'm totally agree with you, we were talking about that in our local sat group and we have to lay the foundations for proper transponder management before everyone become crazy.
Maybe a general "band plan" for all the SATs will be a solution......
My two cents
Rick EA4M
On Mon, Aug 23, 2021, 17:48 john@papays.com wrote:
FT4 activity on RS-44 has been increasing. FT4 can be heard just about everywhere in the passband and this can create problems for SSB and CW users. I have heard FT4 around 435668, 64x,639 and 620. The HF bands are divided into mode segments so CW,SSB and Digital are not in the same areas. On RS-44 there are no segments so it is all modes everywhere. Several days ago I listened to WB9YIG trying to work N1DM around 435639, but every time N1DM would give his callsign a FT4 signal would be on top of him. They finally gave up. I doubt if it was intentional. The FT4 computer was just doing what it was programmed to do. The operator may have not even been listening (not a good idea on sats). Also keep in mind that a FT4 signal is key down continuous carrier, much more demanding on satellite power than SSB or to some extent CW. The beauty of FT4 is supposed to be that you don't need a strong signal to decode, so flea power should work well. It would be good if all the FT4 operations would move to one area on the transponder. I suggest 435610-435620 because it is the least used area. The top end has become very crowded lately due to some rovers operating in that area. This has encouraged others to operate there as well. Maybe some others have a better suggestion. FT4 is not the only issue on RS-44. CW activity has been increasing as well. CW and SSB can co-exist, however, CW ops cannot be using CW filters and expect not to interfere with SSB stations. Again we don't have a CW segment so using CW filters are not going to be appropriate. Please use a SSB RX filter when operating CW and make sure you don't hear SSB in your passband before starting up. Same for SSB stations. Don't start up if you hear CW in your passband. Just move to a clear spot. If you are not computer conrtolled for doppler, you are going to be moving in the passband. And you are likely going to slide into another QSO, especially now that RS-44 activity has increased. Please try to keep your position in the passband stable. If your radio can be computer controlled, please take advantage of that so that you don't move. You never have to send dits, whistle or blow into the mic when you are computer controlled. And you won't be transmitting on top of somebody. Just my opinion of course. 73, John K8YSE
Sent via AMSAT-BB(a)amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Acceptable Use and Privacy Policies available at https://www.amsat.org/about-amsat/
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Sent via AMSAT-BB(a)amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Acceptable Use and Privacy Policies available at https://www.amsat.org/about-amsat/
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Sent via AMSAT-BB(a)amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Acceptable Use and Privacy Policies available at https://www.amsat.org/about-amsat/
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-- Dr. Robert W McGwier, Ph.D. Adjunct Faculty, Virginia Tech ARDC Member of Board N4HY: ARRL, TAPR, AMSAT, EARC Sky: AAVSO, SkyHub, Auburn AS, Skyscrapers
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Some users have computer Doppler correction ,others do not. Asa practical matter both need to be accommodated. I suggest a digimodes segment near the top end of the RS-44 downlink because the beacon is at the bottom end. 73 Ray W2RS
-----Original Message----- From: Ricardo Navarrete ricardoea4zk@gmail.com To: Bob Liddy (K8BL) k8bl@ameritech.net Cc: Humberto González xe1fze@hotmail.com; Robert McGwier rwmcgwier@gmail.com; Ray Soifer rsoifer1@aol.com; john@papays.com; Amsat BB amsat-bb@amsat.org, bothe Sent: Mon, Aug 23, 2021 3:08 pm Subject: [AMSAT-BB] Re: FT4 and CW on RS-44\
Probably you are right Bob, bit this is extracted from author web page..... FT4 and FT8 are digital protocols designed for rapid and accuratecommunication between amateur radio stations, particularly in weak-signal conditions. That is what I said that this protocol is good in very low.angle passes but it has non sense over medium-low or medium angle passes. One thing I'm completely sure, we need something similar to a band plan, order and method keep things in place..... 73 On Mon, Aug 23, 2021, 23:47 Bob Liddy (K8BL) k8bl@ameritech.net wrote:
Rick EA4M, My understanding is that FT4 was developed to provide QSOs in half the time as FT8especially for Digital Contesting. But, it makes more sense for SAT operating sinceQSOs need to be quicker due to the several propagation issues that occur. Perhapsagreed-upon freqs need to be implemented to promote sharing of the Bandpass withouttoo much interference. GL/73, Bob K8BL
On Monday, August 23, 2021, 03:50:39 PM EDT, Ricardo Navarrete ricardoea4zk@gmail.com wrote:
BTW I can't understand the use if FT4 in satellite even in HF.... I always thought that FTx modes where developed for extremely bad propagation conditions or for those who have a very poor setup to help them enjoying ham radio, I could accept FT4 in satellites to complete a extreme QSO under negative elevation in both sides but not to have a simple QSO in a good pass or with a normal setup. It is just my opinion.. On Mon, Aug 23, 2021, 21:15 Humberto González xe1fze@hotmail.com wrote:
Hi all, those suggestions are right, the aproach of a band plan can help a lot, nevertheless as others mentioned, all the actions we decide to do will be effective if we follow the rule of listen before TX, I do FT-4, and CW, and with a full duplex station there is no way you make interference and if you doit is intentional. Regarding the power, FT4 can run with less power than cw and ssb, I have made qso's with 0% of the power of the rig, but again, if we abuse about the power of TX no matter the mode we used, we will hogged the sat power. Respect, Improve our operating skills and a band plan will work very good. 73Bert / XE1HG De: Robert McGwier rwmcgwier@gmail.com Enviado: lunes, 23 de agosto de 2021 06:53 p. m. Para: Ray Soifer rsoifer1@aol.com CC: ricardoea4zk@gmail.com ricardoea4zk@gmail.com; john@papays.com john@papays.com; amsat-bb@amsat.org amsat-bb@amsat.org Asunto: [AMSAT-BB] Re: FT4 and CW on RS-44\ Hear hear! On Mon, Aug 23, 2021 at 12:30 PM Ray Soifer via AMSAT-BB amsat-bb@amsat.org wrote:
For a great many years, operation with key down continuous power was strongly discouraged on the linear transponder sats precisely because such modes hogged the sat's power. There is so much activity on the FT modes, however, that John is probably right that it's time to revisit that idea. Not only should a digital band segment be identified as John suggests, but a simple means of holding down power output should be adopted. Here's one idea. Since CW has approximately a 50% duty cycle, why not take your CW power and cut it in half for use on FT4? 73 Ray W2RS
-----Original Message-----From: Ricardo Navarrete ricardoea4zk@gmail.com To: john@papays.com Cc: Amsat BB amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Mon, Aug 23, 2021 8:53 am Subject: [AMSAT-BB] Re: FT4 and CW on RS-44 's Hello Johnth I'm totally agree with you, we were talking about that in our local sat group and we have to lay the foundations for proper transponder management before everyone become crazy. Maybe a general "band plan" for all the SATs will be a solution...... My two cents Rick EA4M On Mon, Aug 23, 2021, 17:48 john@papays.com wrote:
FT4 activity on RS-44 has been increasing. FT4 can be heard just about everywhere in the passband and this can create problems for SSB and CW users. I have heard FT4 around 435668, 64x,639 and 620. The HF bands are divided into mode segments so CW,SSB and Digital are not in the same areas. On RS-44 there are no segments so it is all modes everywhere. Several days ago I listened to WB9YIG trying to work N1DM around 435639, but every time N1DM would give his callsign a FT4 signal would be on top of him. They finally gave up. I doubt if it was intentional. The FT4 computer was just doing what it was programmed to do. The operator may have not even been listening (not a good idea on sats). Also keep in mind that a FT4 signal is key down continuous carrier, much more demanding on satellite power than SSB or to some extent CW. The beauty of FT4 is supposed to be that you don't need a strong signal to decode, so flea power should work well.It would be good if all the FT4 operations would move to one area on the transponder. I suggest 435610-435620 because it is the least used area. The top end has become very crowded lately due to some rovers operating in that area. This has encouraged others to operate there as well. Maybe some others have a better suggestion.FT4 is not the only issue on RS-44. CW activity has been increasing as well. CW and SSB can co-exist, however, CW ops cannot be using CW filters and expect not to interfere with SSB stations. Again we don't have a CW segment so using CW filters are not going to be appropriate. Please use a SSB RX filter when operating CW and make sure you don't hear SSB in your passband before starting up. Same for SSB stations. Don't start up if you hear CW in your passband. Just move to a clear spot.If you are not computer conrtolled for doppler, you are going to be moving in the passband. And you are likely going to slide into another QSO, especially now that RS-44 activity has increased. Please try to keep your position in the passband stable. If your radio can be computer controlled, please take advantage of that so that you don't move. You never have to send dits, whistle or blow into the mic when you are computer controlled. And you won't be transmitting on top of somebody.Just my opinion of course. 73, John K8YSE
-----------------------------------------------------------
Sent via AMSAT-BB(a)amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Acceptable Use and Privacy Policies available at https://www.amsat.org/about-amsat/
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Sent via AMSAT-BB(a)amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Acceptable Use and Privacy Policies available at https://www.amsat.org/about-amsat/
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The original AMSAT Journal article (May/June 2020) on experiments with digital modes suggested 5 kHz up from the bottom of the passband. That won't interfere with the beacon. -- Mark D. Johns, KØJM AMSAT Ambassador & News Service Editor Brooklyn Park, MN USA EN35hd ----------------------------------------------- "Heaven goes by favor; if it went by merit, you would stay out and your dog would go in." ---Mark Twain
On Tue, Aug 24, 2021 at 10:46 AM Ray Soifer via AMSAT-BB amsat-bb@amsat.org wrote:
Some users have computer Doppler correction ,others do not. Asa practical matter both need to be accommodated. I suggest a digimodes segment near the top end of the RS-44 downlink because the beacon is at the bottom end.
73 Ray W2RS
-----Original Message----- From: Ricardo Navarrete ricardoea4zk@gmail.com To: Bob Liddy (K8BL) k8bl@ameritech.net Cc: Humberto González xe1fze@hotmail.com; Robert McGwier < rwmcgwier@gmail.com>; Ray Soifer rsoifer1@aol.com; john@papays.com; Amsat BB amsat-bb@amsat.org, bothe Sent: Mon, Aug 23, 2021 3:08 pm Subject: [AMSAT-BB] Re: FT4 and CW on RS-44\
Probably you are right Bob, bit this is extracted from author web page.....
FT4 and FT8 are digital protocols designed for rapid and accurate communication between amateur radio stations, particularly in weak- signal conditions.
That is what I said that this protocol is good in very low.angle passes but it has non sense over medium-low or medium angle passes.
One thing I'm completely sure, we need something similar to a band plan, order and method keep things in place.....
73
On Mon, Aug 23, 2021, 23:47 Bob Liddy (K8BL) k8bl@ameritech.net wrote:
Rick EA4M,
My understanding is that FT4 was developed to provide QSOs in half the time as FT8 especially for Digital Contesting. But, it makes more sense for SAT operating since QSOs need to be quicker due to the several propagation issues that occur. Perhaps agreed-upon freqs need to be implemented to promote sharing of the Bandpass without too much interference.
GL/73, Bob K8BL
On Monday, August 23, 2021, 03:50:39 PM EDT, Ricardo Navarrete < ricardoea4zk@gmail.com> wrote:
BTW I can't understand the use if FT4 in satellite even in HF.... I always thought that FTx modes where developed for extremely bad propagation conditions or for those who have a very poor setup to help them enjoying ham radio, I could accept FT4 in satellites to complete a extreme QSO under negative elevation in both sides but not to have a simple QSO in a good pass or with a normal setup.
It is just my opinion..
On Mon, Aug 23, 2021, 21:15 Humberto González xe1fze@hotmail.com wrote:
Hi all, those suggestions are right, the aproach of a band plan can help a lot, nevertheless as others mentioned, all the actions we decide to do will be effective if we follow the rule of listen before TX, I do FT-4, and CW, and with a full duplex station there is no way you make interference and if you doit is intentional.
Regarding the power, FT4 can run with less power than cw and ssb, I have made qso's with 0% of the power of the rig, but again, if we abuse about the power of TX no matter the mode we used, we will hogged the sat power.
Respect, Improve our operating skills and a band plan will work very good.
73 Bert / XE1HG
*De:* Robert McGwier rwmcgwier@gmail.com *Enviado:* lunes, 23 de agosto de 2021 06:53 p. m. *Para:* Ray Soifer rsoifer1@aol.com *CC:* ricardoea4zk@gmail.com ricardoea4zk@gmail.com; john@papays.com < john@papays.com>; amsat-bb@amsat.org amsat-bb@amsat.org *Asunto:* [AMSAT-BB] Re: FT4 and CW on RS-44\
Hear hear!
On Mon, Aug 23, 2021 at 12:30 PM Ray Soifer via AMSAT-BB < amsat-bb@amsat.org> wrote:
For a great many years, operation with key down continuous power was strongly discouraged on the linear transponder sats precisely because such modes hogged the sat's power. There is so much activity on the FT modes, however, that John is probably right that it's time to revisit that idea. Not only should a digital band segment be identified as John suggests, but a simple means of holding down power output should be adopted. Here's one idea. Since CW has approximately a 50% duty cycle, why not take your CW power and cut it in half for use on FT4?
73 Ray W2RS
-----Original Message----- From: Ricardo Navarrete ricardoea4zk@gmail.com To: john@papays.com Cc: Amsat BB amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Mon, Aug 23, 2021 8:53 am Subject: [AMSAT-BB] Re: FT4 and CW on RS-44 's Hello John th I'm totally agree with you, we were talking about that in our local sat group and we have to lay the foundations for proper transponder management before everyone become crazy.
Maybe a general "band plan" for all the SATs will be a solution......
My two cents
Rick EA4M
On Mon, Aug 23, 2021, 17:48 john@papays.com wrote:
FT4 activity on RS-44 has been increasing. FT4 can be heard just about everywhere in the passband and this can create problems for SSB and CW users. I have heard FT4 around 435668, 64x,639 and 620. The HF bands are divided into mode segments so CW,SSB and Digital are not in the same areas. On RS-44 there are no segments so it is all modes everywhere. Several days ago I listened to WB9YIG trying to work N1DM around 435639, but every time N1DM would give his callsign a FT4 signal would be on top of him. They finally gave up. I doubt if it was intentional. The FT4 computer was just doing what it was programmed to do. The operator may have not even been listening (not a good idea on sats). Also keep in mind that a FT4 signal is key down continuous carrier, much more demanding on satellite power than SSB or to some extent CW. The beauty of FT4 is supposed to be that you don't need a strong signal to decode, so flea power should work well. It would be good if all the FT4 operations would move to one area on the transponder. I suggest 435610-435620 because it is the least used area. The top end has become very crowded lately due to some rovers operating in that area. This has encouraged others to operate there as well. Maybe some others have a better suggestion. FT4 is not the only issue on RS-44. CW activity has been increasing as well. CW and SSB can co-exist, however, CW ops cannot be using CW filters and expect not to interfere with SSB stations. Again we don't have a CW segment so using CW filters are not going to be appropriate. Please use a SSB RX filter when operating CW and make sure you don't hear SSB in your passband before starting up. Same for SSB stations. Don't start up if you hear CW in your passband. Just move to a clear spot. If you are not computer conrtolled for doppler, you are going to be moving in the passband. And you are likely going to slide into another QSO, especially now that RS-44 activity has increased. Please try to keep your position in the passband stable. If your radio can be computer controlled, please take advantage of that so that you don't move. You never have to send dits, whistle or blow into the mic when you are computer controlled. And you won't be transmitting on top of somebody. Just my opinion of course. 73, John K8YSE
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-----Original Message----- From: Mark Johns, K0JM k0jm.mark@gmail.com To: Ray Soifer rsoifer1@aol.com Cc: ricardoea4zk@gmail.com ricardoea4zk@gmail.com; k8bl@ameritech.net k8bl@ameritech.net; xe1fze@hotmail.com xe1fze@hotmail.com; rwmcgwier@gmail.com rwmcgwier@gmail.com; john@papays.com john@papays.com; amsat-bb@amsat.org amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Tue, Aug 24, 2021 9:22 am Subject: [AMSAT-BB] Re: FT4 and CW on RS-44\
The original AMSAT Journal article (May/June 2020) on experiments with digital modes suggested 5 kHz up from the bottom of the passband. That won't interfere with the beacon. -- Mark D. Johns, KØJM AMSAT Ambassador & News Service Editor Brooklyn Park, MN USA EN35hd -----------------------------------------------"Heaven goes by favor; if it went by merit, you would stay out and your dog would go in." ---Mark Twain
On Tue, Aug 24, 2021 at 10:46 AM Ray Soifer via AMSAT-BB amsat-bb@amsat.org wrote:
Some users have computer Doppler correction ,others do not. Asa practical matter both need to be accommodated. I suggest a digimodes segment near the top end of the RS-44 downlink because the beacon is at the bottom end. 73 Ray W2RS
-----Original Message----- From: Ricardo Navarrete ricardoea4zk@gmail.com To: Bob Liddy (K8BL) k8bl@ameritech.net Cc: Humberto González xe1fze@hotmail.com; Robert McGwier rwmcgwier@gmail.com; Ray Soifer rsoifer1@aol.com; john@papays.com; Amsat BB amsat-bb@amsat.org, bothe Sent: Mon, Aug 23, 2021 3:08 pm Subject: [AMSAT-BB] Re: FT4 and CW on RS-44\
Probably you are right Bob, bit this is extracted from author web page..... FT4 and FT8 are digital protocols designed for rapid and accuratecommunication between amateur radio stations, particularly in weak-signal conditions. That is what I said that this protocol is good in very low.angle passes but it has non sense over medium-low or medium angle passes. One thing I'm completely sure, we need something similar to a band plan, order and method keep things in place..... 73 On Mon, Aug 23, 2021, 23:47 Bob Liddy (K8BL) k8bl@ameritech.net wrote:
Rick EA4M, My understanding is that FT4 was developed to provide QSOs in half the time as FT8especially for Digital Contesting. But, it makes more sense for SAT operating sinceQSOs need to be quicker due to the several propagation issues that occur. Perhapsagreed-upon freqs need to be implemented to promote sharing of the Bandpass withouttoo much interference. GL/73, Bob K8BL
On Monday, August 23, 2021, 03:50:39 PM EDT, Ricardo Navarrete ricardoea4zk@gmail.com wrote:
BTW I can't understand the use if FT4 in satellite even in HF.... I always thought that FTx modes where developed for extremely bad propagation conditions or for those who have a very poor setup to help them enjoying ham radio, I could accept FT4 in satellites to complete a extreme QSO under negative elevation in both sides but not to have a simple QSO in a good pass or with a normal setup. It is just my opinion.. On Mon, Aug 23, 2021, 21:15 Humberto González xe1fze@hotmail.com wrote:
Hi all, those suggestions are right, the aproach of a band plan can help a lot, nevertheless as others mentioned, all the actions we decide to do will be effective if we follow the rule of listen before TX, I do FT-4, and CW, and with a full duplex station there is no way you make interference and if you doit is intentional. Regarding the power, FT4 can run with less power than cw and ssb, I have made qso's with 0% of the power of the rig, but again, if we abuse about the power of TX no matter the mode we used, we will hogged the sat power. Respect, Improve our operating skills and a band plan will work very good. 73Bert / XE1HG De: Robert McGwier rwmcgwier@gmail.com Enviado: lunes, 23 de agosto de 2021 06:53 p. m. Para: Ray Soifer rsoifer1@aol.com CC: ricardoea4zk@gmail.com ricardoea4zk@gmail.com; john@papays.com john@papays.com; amsat-bb@amsat.org amsat-bb@amsat.org Asunto: [AMSAT-BB] Re: FT4 and CW on RS-44\ Hear hear! On Mon, Aug 23, 2021 at 12:30 PM Ray Soifer via AMSAT-BB amsat-bb@amsat.org wrote:
For a great many years, operation with key down continuous power was strongly discouraged on the linear transponder sats precisely because such modes hogged the sat's power. There is so much activity on the FT modes, however, that John is probably right that it's time to revisit that idea. Not only should a digital band segment be identified as John suggests, but a simple means of holding down power output should be adopted. Here's one idea. Since CW has approximately a 50% duty cycle, why not take your CW power and cut it in half for use on FT4? 73 Ray W2RS
-----Original Message-----From: Ricardo Navarrete ricardoea4zk@gmail.com To: john@papays.com Cc: Amsat BB amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Mon, Aug 23, 2021 8:53 am Subject: [AMSAT-BB] Re: FT4 and CW on RS-44 's Hello Johnth I'm totally agree with you, we were talking about that in our local sat group and we have to lay the foundations for proper transponder management before everyone become crazy. Maybe a general "band plan" for all the SATs will be a solution...... My two cents Rick EA4M On Mon, Aug 23, 2021, 17:48 john@papays.com wrote:
FT4 activity on RS-44 has been increasing. FT4 can be heard just about everywhere in the passband and this can create problems for SSB and CW users. I have heard FT4 around 435668, 64x,639 and 620. The HF bands are divided into mode segments so CW,SSB and Digital are not in the same areas. On RS-44 there are no segments so it is all modes everywhere. Several days ago I listened to WB9YIG trying to work N1DM around 435639, but every time N1DM would give his callsign a FT4 signal would be on top of him. They finally gave up. I doubt if it was intentional. The FT4 computer was just doing what it was programmed to do. The operator may have not even been listening (not a good idea on sats). Also keep in mind that a FT4 signal is key down continuous carrier, much more demanding on satellite power than SSB or to some extent CW. The beauty of FT4 is supposed to be that you don't need a strong signal to decode, so flea power should work well.It would be good if all the FT4 operations would move to one area on the transponder. I suggest 435610-435620 because it is the least used area. The top end has become very crowded lately due to some rovers operating in that area. This has encouraged others to operate there as well. Maybe some others have a better suggestion.FT4 is not the only issue on RS-44. CW activity has been increasing as well. CW and SSB can co-exist, however, CW ops cannot be using CW filters and expect not to interfere with SSB stations. Again we don't have a CW segment so using CW filters are not going to be appropriate. Please use a SSB RX filter when operating CW and make sure you don't hear SSB in your passband before starting up. Same for SSB stations. Don't start up if you hear CW in your passband. Just move to a clear spot.If you are not computer conrtolled for doppler, you are going to be moving in the passband. And you are likely going to slide into another QSO, especially now that RS-44 activity has increased. Please try to keep your position in the passband stable. If your radio can be computer controlled, please take advantage of that so that you don't move. You never have to send dits, whistle or blow into the mic when you are computer controlled. And you won't be transmitting on top of somebody.Just my opinion of course. 73, John K8YSE
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Bert wrote:
BTW I can't understand the use if FT4 in satellite even in HF.... I always thought that FTx modes where developed for extremely bad propagation >conditions or for those who have a very poor setup to help them enjoying ham radio.
Ham radio is a wonderful thing in that we can enjoy various technologies developed over the years ... we can continue to use just about any modulation scheme we have traditionally used except that from a spark gap transmitter. We can also experiment with new techniques to trade antenna/transmitter/battery size for modulation complexity. This wonderful article from James Miller shows the promise of good digital codes:
https://www.amsat.org/articles/g3ruh/105.html
The article is 30 years old now, I am surprised we still use so much SSB/FM/SSTV!
de KM1P Joe
John,
Your suggestion is excellent, as many might know I´ve been on CW lately on RS-44 with manual tuning (portable setup), I've learned to ID FT4 carriers in order to move to a clear frequency, also I've adopted SSB RX filters to sometimes answer voice calls to my CW CQs, but a proposed band plan and a QRP policy encouragement should be addressed to everybody, at least on NA operations we can adhere to some of this.
73 DE XE2RV Rafa - DL55
On Mon, Aug 23, 2021 at 9:48 AM john@papays.com wrote:
FT4 activity on RS-44 has been increasing. FT4 can be heard just about everywhere in the passband and this can create problems for SSB and CW users. I have heard FT4 around 435668, 64x,639 and 620. The HF bands are divided into mode segments so CW,SSB and Digital are not in the same areas. On RS-44 there are no segments so it is all modes everywhere. Several days ago I listened to WB9YIG trying to work N1DM around 435639, but every time N1DM would give his callsign a FT4 signal would be on top of him. They finally gave up. I doubt if it was intentional. The FT4 computer was just doing what it was programmed to do. The operator may have not even been listening (not a good idea on sats). Also keep in mind that a FT4 signal is key down continuous carrier, much more demanding on satellite power than SSB or to some extent CW. The beauty of FT4 is supposed to be that you don't need a strong signal to decode, so flea power should work well.
It would be good if all the FT4 operations would move to one area on the transponder. I suggest 435610-435620 because it is the least used area. The top end has become very crowded lately due to some rovers operating in that area. This has encouraged others to operate there as well. Maybe some others have a better suggestion.
FT4 is not the only issue on RS-44. CW activity has been increasing as well. CW and SSB can co-exist, however, CW ops cannot be using CW filters and expect not to interfere with SSB stations. Again we don't have a CW segment so using CW filters are not going to be appropriate. Please use a SSB RX filter when operating CW and make sure you don't hear SSB in your passband before starting up. Same for SSB stations. Don't start up if you hear CW in your passband. Just move to a clear spot.
If you are not computer conrtolled for doppler, you are going to be moving in the passband. And you are likely going to slide into another QSO, especially now that RS-44 activity has increased. Please try to keep your position in the passband stable. If your radio can be computer controlled, please take advantage of that so that you don't move. You never have to send dits, whistle or blow into the mic when you are computer controlled. And you won't be transmitting on top of somebody.
Just my opinion of course.
73, John K8YSE
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I like John’s suggestions and had been wondering why there were no satellite band plans. Guess it just wasn’t an issue until now. I have noted that the SatPC32 doppler file for RS-44 has a “Digital Transp.” line with USB-D and LSB-D set at 435612, something consistent with John’s recommendations. In addition, the XW2 series and CAS4A/B have lines marked “wsjt-x.” These lines also are set to the sideband data modes and the receive frequency is set 8 kHz below center frequency. I don’t know the history behind these lines, but where ever they came from, they seem to generalize John’s idea to other birds. RayKN2K
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On Monday, August 23, 2021, 11:47 AM, john@papays.com john@papays.com wrote:
FT4 activity on RS-44 has been increasing. FT4 can be heard just about everywhere in the passband and this can create problems for SSB and CW users. I have heard FT4 around 435668, 64x,639 and 620. The HF bands are divided into mode segments so CW,SSB and Digital are not in the same areas. On RS-44 there are no segments so it is all modes everywhere. Several days ago I listened to WB9YIG trying to work N1DM around 435639, but every time N1DM would give his callsign a FT4 signal would be on top of him. They finally gave up. I doubt if it was intentional. The FT4 computer was just doing what it was programmed to do. The operator may have not even been listening (not a good idea on sats). Also keep in mind that a FT4 signal is key down continuous carrier, much more demanding on satellite power than SSB or to some extent CW. The beauty of FT4 is supposed to be that you don't need a strong signal to decode, so flea power should work well.
It would be good if all the FT4 operations would move to one area on the transponder. I suggest 435610-435620 because it is the least used area. The top end has become very crowded lately due to some rovers operating in that area. This has encouraged others to operate there as well. Maybe some others have a better suggestion.
FT4 is not the only issue on RS-44. CW activity has been increasing as well. CW and SSB can co-exist, however, CW ops cannot be using CW filters and expect not to interfere with SSB stations. Again we don't have a CW segment so using CW filters are not going to be appropriate. Please use a SSB RX filter when operating CW and make sure you don't hear SSB in your passband before starting up. Same for SSB stations. Don't start up if you hear CW in your passband. Just move to a clear spot.
If you are not computer conrtolled for doppler, you are going to be moving in the passband. And you are likely going to slide into another QSO, especially now that RS-44 activity has increased. Please try to keep your position in the passband stable. If your radio can be computer controlled, please take advantage of that so that you don't move. You never have to send dits, whistle or blow into the mic when you are computer controlled. And you won't be transmitting on top of somebody.
Just my opinion of course.
73, John K8YSE
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There were satellite bandplans in the days of Oscar 6, 7 and 8. They followed the same pattern as HF bandplans, CW at the bottom end and SSB at the top end (on the downlink).
On 23/08/2021 15:45 crohtun via AMSAT-BB amsat-bb@amsat.org wrote:
I like John’s suggestions and had been wondering why there were no satellite band plans. Guess it just wasn’t an issue until now. I have noted that the SatPC32 doppler file for RS-44 has a “Digital Transp.” line with USB-D and LSB-D set at 435612, something consistent with John’s recommendations. In addition, the XW2 series and CAS4A/B have lines marked “wsjt-x.” These lines also are set to the sideband data modes and the receive frequency is set 8 kHz below center frequency. I don’t know the history behind these lines, but where ever they came from, they seem to generalize John’s idea to other birds.
Ray KN2K
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On Monday, August 23, 2021, 11:47 AM, john@papays.com john@papays.com wrote:
FT4 activity on RS-44 has been increasing. FT4 can be heard just about everywhere in the passband and this can create problems for SSB and CW users. I have heard FT4 around 435668, 64x,639 and 620. The HF bands are divided into mode segments so CW,SSB and Digital are not in the same areas. On RS-44 there are no segments so it is all modes everywhere. Several days ago I listened to WB9YIG trying to work N1DM around 435639, but every time N1DM would give his callsign a FT4 signal would be on top of him. They finally gave up. I doubt if it was intentional. The FT4 computer was just doing what it was programmed to do. The operator may have not even been listening (not a good idea on sats). Also keep in mind that a FT4 signal is key down continuous carrier, much more demanding on satellite power than SSB or to some extent CW. The beauty of FT4 is supposed to be that you don't need a strong signal to decode, so flea power should work well. It would be good if all the FT4 operations would move to one area on the transponder. I suggest 435610-435620 because it is the least used area. The top end has become very crowded lately due to some rovers operating in that area. This has encouraged others to operate there as well. Maybe some others have a better suggestion. FT4 is not the only issue on RS-44. CW activity has been increasing as well. CW and SSB can co-exist, however, CW ops cannot be using CW filters and expect not to interfere with SSB stations. Again we don't have a CW segment so using CW filters are not going to be appropriate. Please use a SSB RX filter when operating CW and make sure you don't hear SSB in your passband before starting up. Same for SSB stations. Don't start up if you hear CW in your passband. Just move to a clear spot. If you are not computer conrtolled for doppler, you are going to be moving in the passband. And you are likely going to slide into another QSO, especially now that RS-44 activity has increased. Please try to keep your position in the passband stable. If your radio can be computer controlled, please take advantage of that so that you don't move. You never have to send dits, whistle or blow into the mic when you are computer controlled. And you won't be transmitting on top of somebody. Just my opinion of course. 73, John K8YSE
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Nigel A. Gunn, ///shoulders.outwards.resolutions tel +1-937-971-0366 Amateur Radio G8IFF W8IFF and GMRS WRBV701, e-mail nigel@ngunn.net www http://www.ngunn.net
I'm a SatPC32 user at home, so when I toggle CW mode on, the downlink gets kicked into CW mode as well. On some birds, the transponder is stable enough that it works, on others, it's a #FAIL.
One solution if your radio supports it is to adjust or add a wider filter to your downlink radio that remains available in CW. I have started adding additional lines to my Doppler.SQF file to set the modes appropriately - e.g. "USB-D,LSB-D" for FT4, and it finally dawned on me to use "USB,CW" for a more passband-friendly CW. Not quite as quick as the CW +/- toggle but it works for me. Other computer-control systems may allow you to switch the uplink and downlink modes independently (ex: CSN's S.A.T.). And of course, you do not need as much power on CW (I can often tell when someone is running too much by the behavior of the satellite's downlink). FT4 requires even less (and running a 2nd WSJT instance will allow you to monitor your downlink). Since anyone using FT4 has to be computer controlled, I think setting a gathering spot near a passband edge should not be a problem. I recall the initial FT4 experiments were near the passband bottom?
John's suggestions are excellent and based on years of experience.
73 Steve KS1G
On Mon, Aug 23, 2021 at 11:47 AM john@papays.com wrote:
FT4 activity on RS-44 has been increasing. FT4 can be heard just about everywhere in the passband and this can create problems for SSB and CW users. I have heard FT4 around 435668, 64x,639 and 620. The HF bands are divided into mode segments so CW,SSB and Digital are not in the same areas. On RS-44 there are no segments so it is all modes everywhere. Several days ago I listened to WB9YIG trying to work N1DM around 435639, but every time N1DM would give his callsign a FT4 signal would be on top of him. They finally gave up. I doubt if it was intentional. The FT4 computer was just doing what it was programmed to do. The operator may have not even been listening (not a good idea on sats). Also keep in mind that a FT4 signal is key down continuous carrier, much more demanding on satellite power than SSB or to some extent CW. The beauty of FT4 is supposed to be that you don't need a strong signal to decode, so flea power should work well.
It would be good if all the FT4 operations would move to one area on the transponder. I suggest 435610-435620 because it is the least used area. The top end has become very crowded lately due to some rovers operating in that area. This has encouraged others to operate there as well. Maybe some others have a better suggestion.
FT4 is not the only issue on RS-44. CW activity has been increasing as well. CW and SSB can co-exist, however, CW ops cannot be using CW filters and expect not to interfere with SSB stations. Again we don't have a CW segment so using CW filters are not going to be appropriate. Please use a SSB RX filter when operating CW and make sure you don't hear SSB in your passband before starting up. Same for SSB stations. Don't start up if you hear CW in your passband. Just move to a clear spot.
If you are not computer conrtolled for doppler, you are going to be moving in the passband. And you are likely going to slide into another QSO, especially now that RS-44 activity has increased. Please try to keep your position in the passband stable. If your radio can be computer controlled, please take advantage of that so that you don't move. You never have to send dits, whistle or blow into the mic when you are computer controlled. And you won't be transmitting on top of somebody.
Just my opinion of course.
73, John K8YSE
CW and other digital modes at the bottom of the receive bands seems like a good idea (and easier for us old HF guys to remember..).
73,
Carlos
W7QL
From: Carlos Cardon [mailto:cdcardon@comcast.net] Sent: Monday, August 23, 2021 12:41 PM To: 'john@papays.com' Subject: RE: [AMSAT-BB] FT4 and CW on RS-44
Well said, John.
For us old guys, it seems consistent to have CW and Digital at the lower end of the band and SSB in the upper part. The CW and digital signals require much less bandwidth than SSB. So if they can set up and look for each other at the low end, we can avoid some of the QRM we have been hearing.
73,
Carlos
From: john@papays.com [mailto:john@papays.com] Sent: Monday, August 23, 2021 9:47 AM To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: [AMSAT-BB] FT4 and CW on RS-44
FT4 activity on RS-44 has been increasing. FT4 can be heard just about everywhere in the passband and this can create problems for SSB and CW users. I have heard FT4 around 435668, 64x,639 and 620. The HF bands are divided into mode segments so CW,SSB and Digital are not in the same areas. On RS-44 there are no segments so it is all modes everywhere. Several days ago I listened to WB9YIG trying to work N1DM around 435639, but every time N1DM would give his callsign a FT4 signal would be on top of him. They finally gave up. I doubt if it was intentional. The FT4 computer was just doing what it was programmed to do. The operator may have not even been listening (not a good idea on sats). Also keep in mind that a FT4 signal is key down continuous carrier, much more demanding on satellite power than SSB or to some extent CW. The beauty of FT4 is supposed to be that you don't need a strong signal to decode, so flea power should work well.
It would be good if all the FT4 operations would move to one area on the transponder. I suggest 435610-435620 because it is the least used area. The top end has become very crowded lately due to some rovers operating in that area. This has encouraged others to operate there as well. Maybe some others have a better suggestion.
FT4 is not the only issue on RS-44. CW activity has been increasing as well. CW and SSB can co-exist, however, CW ops cannot be using CW filters and expect not to interfere with SSB stations. Again we don't have a CW segment so using CW filters are not going to be appropriate. Please use a SSB RX filter when operating CW and make sure you don't hear SSB in your passband before starting up. Same for SSB stations. Don't start up if you hear CW in your passband. Just move to a clear spot.
If you are not computer conrtolled for doppler, you are going to be moving in the passband. And you are likely going to slide into another QSO, especially now that RS-44 activity has increased. Please try to keep your position in the passband stable. If your radio can be computer controlled, please take advantage of that so that you don't move. You never have to send dits, whistle or blow into the mic when you are computer controlled. And you won't be transmitting on top of somebody.
Just my opinion of course.
73, John K8YSE
On 08/25/21 12:50, Carlos Cardon wrote:
CW and other digital modes at the bottom of the receive bands seems like a good idea (and easier for us old HF guys to remember..).
I'd like to suggest ranges for low-bandwidth digital voice, SSTV/image, and experimental modes.
--- Zach N0ZGO
Just a thought -
Low end of the passband makes sense but I suggest that the proposed gentlemen’s agreement specify the segments by bandwidth of the mode type. As an example, the lower 40 % of the passband be “suggested” for modes less than 2 KHz and the remaining 60% be “suggested” for modes greater than 2 KHz.
Just a thought.
I concur with Mark K0JM that this “band plan” should be proposed as a gentlemen’s agreement and cannot be mandated by AMSAT, ARRL or any other organization except for the satellite owners (China, Russia, AMSAT, etc).
Again, just my thoughts.
73 Carl WA0CQG
On Aug 25, 2021, at 12:50 PM, Carlos Cardon cdcardon@comcast.net wrote:
CW and other digital modes at the bottom of the receive bands seems like a good idea (and easier for us old HF guys to remember..).
73, Carlos W7QL
From: Carlos Cardon [mailto:cdcardon@comcast.net] Sent: Monday, August 23, 2021 12:41 PM To: 'john@papays.com' Subject: RE: [AMSAT-BB] FT4 and CW on RS-44
Well said, John.
For us old guys, it seems consistent to have CW and Digital at the lower end of the band and SSB in the upper part. The CW and digital signals require much less bandwidth than SSB. So if they can set up and look for each other at the low end, we can avoid some of the QRM we have been hearing.
73, Carlos
From: john@papays.com [mailto:john@papays.com] Sent: Monday, August 23, 2021 9:47 AM To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: [AMSAT-BB] FT4 and CW on RS-44
FT4 activity on RS-44 has been increasing. FT4 can be heard just about everywhere in the passband and this can create problems for SSB and CW users. I have heard FT4 around 435668, 64x,639 and 620. The HF bands are divided into mode segments so CW,SSB and Digital are not in the same areas. On RS-44 there are no segments so it is all modes everywhere. Several days ago I listened to WB9YIG trying to work N1DM around 435639, but every time N1DM would give his callsign a FT4 signal would be on top of him. They finally gave up. I doubt if it was intentional. The FT4 computer was just doing what it was programmed to do. The operator may have not even been listening (not a good idea on sats). Also keep in mind that a FT4 signal is key down continuous carrier, much more demanding on satellite power than SSB or to some extent CW. The beauty of FT4 is supposed to be that you don't need a strong signal to decode, so flea power should work well. It would be good if all the FT4 operations would move to one area on the transponder. I suggest 435610-435620 because it is the least used area. The top end has become very crowded lately due to some rovers operating in that area. This has encouraged others to operate there as well. Maybe some others have a better suggestion. FT4 is not the only issue on RS-44. CW activity has been increasing as well. CW and SSB can co-exist, however, CW ops cannot be using CW filters and expect not to interfere with SSB stations. Again we don't have a CW segment so using CW filters are not going to be appropriate. Please use a SSB RX filter when operating CW and make sure you don't hear SSB in your passband before starting up. Same for SSB stations. Don't start up if you hear CW in your passband. Just move to a clear spot. If you are not computer conrtolled for doppler, you are going to be moving in the passband. And you are likely going to slide into another QSO, especially now that RS-44 activity has increased. Please try to keep your position in the passband stable. If your radio can be computer controlled, please take advantage of that so that you don't move. You never have to send dits, whistle or blow into the mic when you are computer controlled. And you won't be transmitting on top of somebody. Just my opinion of course. 73, John K8YSE
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OK John, you've made a persuasive case, I'll join you in proposing 435.610-620 for FT-4 if users keep their EIRP down to no more than half of what they run on CW or PEP on SSB. 73 Ray W2RS -----Original Message----- From: Carlos Cardon cdcardon@comcast.net To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Wed, Aug 25, 2021 10:50 am Subject: [AMSAT-BB] FW: FT4 and CW on RS-44un
<!--#yiv2636166922 _filtered {} _filtered {} _filtered {}#yiv2636166922 #yiv2636166922 p.yiv2636166922MsoNormal, #yiv2636166922 li.yiv2636166922MsoNormal, #yiv2636166922 div.yiv2636166922MsoNormal {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman", "serif";}#yiv2636166922 a:link, #yiv2636166922 span.yiv2636166922MsoHyperlink {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv2636166922 a:visited, #yiv2636166922 span.yiv2636166922MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv2636166922 p {margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman", "serif";}#yiv2636166922 span.yiv2636166922EmailStyle18 {font-family:"Calibri", "sans-serif";color:#1F497D;}#yiv2636166922 span.yiv2636166922EmailStyle19 {font-family:"Calibri", "sans-serif";color:#1F497D;}#yiv2636166922 .yiv2636166922MsoChpDefault {font-size:10.0pt;} _filtered {}#yiv2636166922 div.yiv2636166922WordSection1 {}-->CW and other digital modes at the bottom of the receive bands seems like a good idea (and easier for us old HF guys to remember..). 73,CarlosW7QL From: Carlos Cardon [mailto:cdcardon@comcast.net] Sent: Monday, August 23, 2021 12:41 PM To: 'john@papays.com' Subject: RE: [AMSAT-BB] FT4 and CW on RS-44 Well said, John. For us old guys, it seems consistent to have CW and Digital at the lower end of the band and SSB in the upper part. The CW and digital signals require much less bandwidth than SSB. So if they can set up and look for each other at the low end, we can avoid some of the QRM we have been hearing. 73,Carlos From: john@papays.com [mailto:john@papays.com] Sent: Monday, August 23, 2021 9:47 AM To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: [AMSAT-BB] FT4 and CW on RS-44 FT4 activity on RS-44 has been increasing. FT4 can be heard just about everywhere in the passband and this can create problems for SSB and CW users. I have heard FT4 around 435668, 64x,639 and 620. The HF bands are divided into mode segments so CW,SSB and Digital are not in the same areas. On RS-44 there are no segments so it is all modes everywhere. Several days ago I listened to WB9YIG trying to work N1DM around 435639, but every time N1DM would give his callsign a FT4 signal would be on top of him. They finally gave up. I doubt if it was intentional. The FT4 computer was just doing what it was programmed to do. The operator may have not even been listening (not a good idea on sats). Also keep in mind that a FT4 signal is key down continuous carrier, much more demanding on satellite power than SSB or to some extent CW. The beauty of FT4 is supposed to be that you don't need a strong signal to decode, so flea power should work well.It would be good if all the FT4 operations would move to one area on the transponder. I suggest 435610-435620 because it is the least used area. The top end has become very crowded lately due to some rovers operating in that area. This has encouraged others to operate there as well. Maybe some others have a better suggestion.FT4 is not the only issue on RS-44. CW activity has been increasing as well. CW and SSB can co-exist, however, CW ops cannot be using CW filters and expect not to interfere with SSB stations. Again we don't have a CW segment so using CW filters are not going to be appropriate. Please use a SSB RX filter when operating CW and make sure you don't hear SSB in your passband before starting up. Same for SSB stations. Don't start up if you hear CW in your passband. Just move to a clear spot.If you are not computer conrtolled for doppler, you are going to be moving in the passband. And you are likely going to slide into another QSO, especially now that RS-44 activity has increased. Please try to keep your position in the passband stable. If your radio can be computer controlled, please take advantage of that so that you don't move. You never have to send dits, whistle or blow into the mic when you are computer controlled. And you won't be transmitting on top of somebody.Just my opinion of course. 73, John K8YSE -----------------------------------------------------------
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Chiming in!
I thought the rule was to use the minimum power necessary to make the contact. That applies to all modes and frequencies as I recall. It’s not necessarily proportional to another mode.
Mark N8MH
On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 12:58 PM Ray Soifer via AMSAT-BB amsat-bb@amsat.org wrote:
OK John, you've made a persuasive case, I'll join you in proposing 435.610-620 for FT-4 if users keep their EIRP down to no more than half of what they run on CW or PEP on SSB.
73 Ray W2RS
-----Original Message----- From: Carlos Cardon cdcardon@comcast.net To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Wed, Aug 25, 2021 10:50 am Subject: [AMSAT-BB] FW: FT4 and CW on RS-44un
CW and other digital modes at the bottom of the receive bands seems like a good idea (and easier for us old HF guys to remember..).
73, Carlos W7QL
*From:* Carlos Cardon [mailto:cdcardon@comcast.net] *Sent:* Monday, August 23, 2021 12:41 PM *To:* 'john@papays.com' *Subject:* RE: [AMSAT-BB] FT4 and CW on RS-44
Well said, John.
For us old guys, it seems consistent to have CW and Digital at the lower end of the band and SSB in the upper part. The CW and digital signals require much less bandwidth than SSB. So if they can set up and look for each other at the low end, we can avoid some of the QRM we have been hearing.
73, Carlos
*From:* john@papays.com [mailto:john@papays.com] *Sent:* Monday, August 23, 2021 9:47 AM *To:* amsat-bb@amsat.org *Subject:* [AMSAT-BB] FT4 and CW on RS-44
FT4 activity on RS-44 has been increasing. FT4 can be heard just about everywhere in the passband and this can create problems for SSB and CW users. I have heard FT4 around 435668, 64x,639 and 620. The HF bands are divided into mode segments so CW,SSB and Digital are not in the same areas. On RS-44 there are no segments so it is all modes everywhere. Several days ago I listened to WB9YIG trying to work N1DM around 435639, but every time N1DM would give his callsign a FT4 signal would be on top of him. They finally gave up. I doubt if it was intentional. The FT4 computer was just doing what it was programmed to do. The operator may have not even been listening (not a good idea on sats). Also keep in mind that a FT4 signal is key down continuous carrier, much more demanding on satellite power than SSB or to some extent CW. The beauty of FT4 is supposed to be that you don't need a strong signal to decode, so flea power should work well. It would be good if all the FT4 operations would move to one area on the transponder. I suggest 435610-435620 because it is the least used area. The top end has become very crowded lately due to some rovers operating in that area. This has encouraged others to operate there as well. Maybe some others have a better suggestion. FT4 is not the only issue on RS-44. CW activity has been increasing as well. CW and SSB can co-exist, however, CW ops cannot be using CW filters and expect not to interfere with SSB stations. Again we don't have a CW segment so using CW filters are not going to be appropriate. Please use a SSB RX filter when operating CW and make sure you don't hear SSB in your passband before starting up. Same for SSB stations. Don't start up if you hear CW in your passband. Just move to a clear spot. If you are not computer conrtolled for doppler, you are going to be moving in the passband. And you are likely going to slide into another QSO, especially now that RS-44 activity has increased. Please try to keep your position in the passband stable. If your radio can be computer controlled, please take advantage of that so that you don't move. You never have to send dits, whistle or blow into the mic when you are computer controlled. And you won't be transmitting on top of somebody. Just my opinion of course. 73, John K8YSE
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Hey Team,
If I can be of assistance directing folks to the right frequency on each bird, I'm all in. I realize that a bunch of folks used the how-to video I made to start working FT4 on RS-44 (and others). When I posted the video, 145.938 TX at the bird seemed off to the side and as good a place as any to work other stations. So it was used as an example. For the first week before I posted the video, myself and a few other satops I had assisted hadn't run into any conflicts.
Since then it seems 145.990 is now the latest go-to-spot. Even saw an op this morning via FT4 at 145.938 directing folks over to the respective RX freq.
I've updated the video description with this information for RS-44 as well as what was suggested from ANS-234 AMSAT News Service Weekly Bulletins 2021-08-21.
IMHO what Frank stated: a single frequency per bird is good to call the "FT4 frequency". Looking forward to the consensus.
Also kinda strange to hear someone(s) intentionally talking over FT4 contacts in the middle of a pass that were ongoing throughout. Doing that doesn't hinder the FT4 contact in the slightest. So I guess if it makes you happy? ¯_(ツ)_/¯
Ducking and covering.
-Ant NU1U
On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 2:28 PM wa2ndv@gmail.com wrote:
There should be ONE discreet frequency for FT4 as it is everywhere else, not a range of frequencies.
Once consensus is reached it can be added to the csntechnologies SAT tracker. As of now the frequency proposed by NU1U is in the transponder list for RS-44.
73
Frank
WA2NDV
*From: *Ray Soifer via AMSAT-BB amsat-bb@amsat.org *Sent: *Thursday, August 26, 2021 12:58 PM *To: *cdcardon@comcast.net; amsat-bb@amsat.org *Subject: *[AMSAT-BB] Re: FW: FT4 and CW on RS-44
OK John, you've made a persuasive case, I'll join you in proposing 435.610-620 for FT-4 if users keep their EIRP down to no more than half of what they run on CW or PEP on SSB.
73 Ray W2RS
-----Original Message----- From: Carlos Cardon cdcardon@comcast.net To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Wed, Aug 25, 2021 10:50 am Subject: [AMSAT-BB] FW: FT4 and CW on RS-44un
CW and other digital modes at the bottom of the receive bands seems like a good idea (and easier for us old HF guys to remember..).
73,
Carlos
W7QL
*From:* Carlos Cardon [mailto:cdcardon@comcast.net] *Sent:* Monday, August 23, 2021 12:41 PM *To:* 'john@papays.com' *Subject:* RE: [AMSAT-BB] FT4 and CW on RS-44
Well said, John.
For us old guys, it seems consistent to have CW and Digital at the lower end of the band and SSB in the upper part. The CW and digital signals require much less bandwidth than SSB. So if they can set up and look for each other at the low end, we can avoid some of the QRM we have been hearing.
73,
Carlos
*From:* john@papays.com [mailto:john@papays.com] *Sent:* Monday, August 23, 2021 9:47 AM *To:* amsat-bb@amsat.org *Subject:* [AMSAT-BB] FT4 and CW on RS-44
FT4 activity on RS-44 has been increasing. FT4 can be heard just about everywhere in the passband and this can create problems for SSB and CW users. I have heard FT4 around 435668, 64x,639 and 620. The HF bands are divided into mode segments so CW,SSB and Digital are not in the same areas. On RS-44 there are no segments so it is all modes everywhere. Several days ago I listened to WB9YIG trying to work N1DM around 435639, but every time N1DM would give his callsign a FT4 signal would be on top of him. They finally gave up. I doubt if it was intentional. The FT4 computer was just doing what it was programmed to do. The operator may have not even been listening (not a good idea on sats). Also keep in mind that a FT4 signal is key down continuous carrier, much more demanding on satellite power than SSB or to some extent CW. The beauty of FT4 is supposed to be that you don't need a strong signal to decode, so flea power should work well.
It would be good if all the FT4 operations would move to one area on the transponder. I suggest 435610-435620 because it is the least used area. The top end has become very crowded lately due to some rovers operating in that area. This has encouraged others to operate there as well. Maybe some others have a better suggestion.
FT4 is not the only issue on RS-44. CW activity has been increasing as well. CW and SSB can co-exist, however, CW ops cannot be using CW filters and expect not to interfere with SSB stations. Again we don't have a CW segment so using CW filters are not going to be appropriate. Please use a SSB RX filter when operating CW and make sure you don't hear SSB in your passband before starting up. Same for SSB stations. Don't start up if you hear CW in your passband. Just move to a clear spot.
If you are not computer conrtolled for doppler, you are going to be moving in the passband And you are likely going to slide into another QSO, especially now that RS-44 activity has increased. Please try to keep your position in the passband stable. If your radio can be computer controlled, please take advantage of that so that you don't move. You never have to send dits, whistle or blow into the mic when you are computer controlled. And you won't be transmitting on top of somebody.
Just my opinion of course.
73, John K8YSE
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Concur that I’ve tested FT4 not only on CAS-4A and 4B, XW-2A and 2B, JO-97 but also EO-88 with very low power setting.
A consensus of a frequency would be great as right now I’m only hearing my own echo, still looking for my first QSO on FT4 via sat :)
73 de Yono - YD0NXX
Sent from my iPhone
On Aug 27, 2021, at 4:14 AM, wa2ndv@gmail.com wrote:
…
BTW I have also tested FT4 on CAS-4A and B , JO-97 and XW-2A with 0 power on my 9700 which is just a few hundred milliwatts. I had good decoded up to 1500 miles range, 1.5 degrees with a return of -15db on WSJT-x
…
What is the meaning of FT4 on satellites???? I always thought that FT4 was for very low signals, poor propagation and precarious setups....
On Fri, Aug 27, 2021, 02:27 Yono Adisoemarta via AMSAT-BB < amsat-bb@amsat.org> wrote:
Concur that I’ve tested FT4 not only on CAS-4A and 4B, XW-2A and 2B, JO-97 but also EO-88 with very low power setting.
A consensus of a frequency would be great as right now I’m only hearing my own echo, still looking for my first QSO on FT4 via sat :)
73 de Yono - YD0NXX
Sent from my iPhone
On Aug 27, 2021, at 4:14 AM, wa2ndv@gmail.com wrote:
…
BTW I have also tested FT4 on CAS-4A and B , JO-97 and XW-2A with 0 power on my 9700 which is just a few hundred milliwatts. I had good decoded up to 1500 miles range, 1.5 degrees with a return of -15db on WSJT-x
…
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Rick,
You just described every pass under 15 degrees or sometimes more from my QTH from spring to fall with the foliage.
Other reasons can include, but aren't limited to: Experimentation. Mic shy satops. AO-109. Check it off the list of things you've done with the hobby. Fun.
73 -Ant NU1U
On Fri, Aug 27, 2021 at 11:28 AM Ricardo Navarrete ricardoea4zk@gmail.com wrote:
What is the meaning of FT4 on satellites???? I always thought that FT4 was for very low signals, poor propagation and precarious setups....
On Fri, Aug 27, 2021, 02:27 Yono Adisoemarta via AMSAT-BB < amsat-bb@amsat.org> wrote:
Concur that I’ve tested FT4 not only on CAS-4A and 4B, XW-2A and 2B, JO-97 but also EO-88 with very low power setting.
A consensus of a frequency would be great as right now I’m only hearing my own echo, still looking for my first QSO on FT4 via sat :)
73 de Yono - YD0NXX
Sent from my iPhone
On Aug 27, 2021, at 4:14 AM, wa2ndv@gmail.com wrote:
…
BTW I have also tested FT4 on CAS-4A and B , JO-97 and XW-2A with 0 power on my 9700 which is just a few hundred milliwatts. I had good decoded up to 1500 miles range, 1.5 degrees with a return of -15db on WSJT-x
…
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Perfect Ant,
For those pass this mode is perfect, bit under this kind of circumstances....
On Fri, Aug 27, 2021, 18:00 Ant Lefebvre anthony.lefebvre@gmail.com wrote:
Rick,
You just described every pass under 15 degrees or sometimes more from my QTH from spring to fall with the foliage.
Other reasons can include, but aren't limited to: Experimentation. Mic shy satops. AO-109. Check it off the list of things you've done with the hobby. Fun.
73 -Ant NU1U
On Fri, Aug 27, 2021 at 11:28 AM Ricardo Navarrete ricardoea4zk@gmail.com wrote:
What is the meaning of FT4 on satellites???? I always thought that FT4 was for very low signals, poor propagation and precarious setups....
On Fri, Aug 27, 2021, 02:27 Yono Adisoemarta via AMSAT-BB < amsat-bb@amsat.org> wrote:
Concur that I’ve tested FT4 not only on CAS-4A and 4B, XW-2A and 2B, JO-97 but also EO-88 with very low power setting.
A consensus of a frequency would be great as right now I’m only hearing my own echo, still looking for my first QSO on FT4 via sat :)
73 de Yono - YD0NXX
Sent from my iPhone
On Aug 27, 2021, at 4:14 AM, wa2ndv@gmail.com wrote:
…
BTW I have also tested FT4 on CAS-4A and B , JO-97 and XW-2A with 0 power on my 9700 which is just a few hundred milliwatts. I had good decoded up to 1500 miles range, 1.5 degrees with a return of -15db on WSJT-x
…
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As I pointed out earlier, SatPC32 already has WSJTX lines in the doppler file for CAS4A/B, the XW2 series, and RS44. They’re consistent with K8YSE’s recommendation. But whatever frequencies are listed in anyone’s doppler control software, there’s always going to be a range due to doppler shift being different between stations. So we really can’t talk about one, discreet frequency for meeting a rover, doing FT4, or anything else. It’s always +/- doppler, and a range will get used on the air regardless of what’s in software. RayKN2K
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On Thursday, August 26, 2021, 2:29 PM, wa2ndv@gmail.com wa2ndv@gmail.com wrote:
#yiv9751571736 #yiv9751571736 -- _filtered {} _filtered {} _filtered {} _filtered {}#yiv9751571736 #yiv9751571736 p.yiv9751571736MsoNormal, #yiv9751571736 li.yiv9751571736MsoNormal, #yiv9751571736 div.yiv9751571736MsoNormal {margin:0in;font-size:11.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;}#yiv9751571736 a:link, #yiv9751571736 span.yiv9751571736MsoHyperlink {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv9751571736 span.yiv9751571736DefaultFontHxMailStyle {font-family:sans-serif;color:windowtext;font-weight:normal;font-style:normal;text-decoration:none none;}#yiv9751571736 MsoChpDefault {} _filtered {}#yiv9751571736 div.yiv9751571736WordSection1 {}#yiv9751571736 There should be ONE discreet frequency for FT4 as it is everywhere else, not a range of frequencies.
Once consensus is reached it can be added to the csntechnologies SAT tracker. As of now the frequency proposed by NU1U is in the transponder list for RS-44.
73
Frank
WA2NDV
From: Ray Soifer via AMSAT-BB Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2021 12:58 PM To: cdcardon@comcast.net; amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: [AMSAT-BB] Re: FW: FT4 and CW on RS-44
OK John, you've made a persuasive case, I'll join you in proposing 435.610-620 for FT-4 if users keep their EIRP down to no more than half of what they run on CW or PEP on SSB.
73 Ray W2RS
-----Original Message----- From: Carlos Cardon cdcardon@comcast.net To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Wed, Aug 25, 2021 10:50 am Subject: [AMSAT-BB] FW: FT4 and CW on RS-44un
CW and other digital modes at the bottom of the receive bands seems like a good idea (and easier for us old HF guys to remember..).
73,
Carlos
W7QL
From: Carlos Cardon [mailto:cdcardon@comcast.net] Sent: Monday, August 23, 2021 12:41 PM To: 'john@papays.com' Subject: RE: [AMSAT-BB] FT4 and CW on RS-44
Well said, John.
For us old guys, it seems consistent to have CW and Digital at the lower end of the band and SSB in the upper part. The CW and digital signals require much less bandwidth than SSB. So if they can set up and look for each other at the low end, we can avoid some of the QRM we have been hearing.
73,
Carlos
From: john@papays.com [mailto:john@papays.com] Sent: Monday, August 23, 2021 9:47 AM To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: [AMSAT-BB] FT4 and CW on RS-44
FT4 activity on RS-44 has been increasing. FT4 can be heard just about everywhere in the passband and this can create problems for SSB and CW users. I have heard FT4 around 435668, 64x,639 and 620. The HF bands are divided into mode segments so CW,SSB and Digital are not in the same areas. On RS-44 there are no segments so it is all modes everywhere. Several days ago I listened to WB9YIG trying to work N1DM around 435639, but every time N1DM would give his callsign a FT4 signal would be on top of him. They finally gave up. I doubt if it was intentional. The FT4 computer was just doing what it was programmed to do. The operator may have not even been listening (not a good idea on sats). Also keep in mind that a FT4 signal is key down continuous carrier, much more demanding on satellite power than SSB or to some extent CW. The beauty of FT4 is supposed to be that you don't need a strong signal to decode, so flea power should work well.
It would be good if all the FT4 operations would move to one area on the transponder. I suggest 435610-435620 because it is the least used area. The top end has become very crowded lately due to some rovers operating in that area. This has encouraged others to operate there as well. Maybe some others have a better suggestion.
FT4 is not the only issue on RS-44. CW activity has been increasing as well. CW and SSB can co-exist, however, CW ops cannot be using CW filters and expect not to interfere with SSB stations. Again we don't have a CW segment so using CW filters are not going to be appropriate. Please use a SSB RX filter when operating CW and make sure you don't hear SSB in your passband before starting up. Same for SSB stations. Don't start up if you hear CW in your passband. Just move to a clear spot.
If you are not computer conrtolled for doppler, you are going to be moving in the passband And you are likely going to slide into another QSO, especially now that RS-44 activity has increased. Please try to keep your position in the passband stable. If your radio can be computer controlled, please take advantage of that so that you don't move. You never have to send dits, whistle or blow into the mic when you are computer controlled. And you won't be transmitting on top of somebody.
Just my opinion of course.
73, John K8YSE
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Hi Ray,
I didn’t think the default installation of SatPC32 Doppler.sqf provided those FT4 lines, but maybe so now. That’d be great. Can you kindly post them here so we can see them? My thought has been to create a list of such and get agreement here, while also making it easier for folks to use the agreed upon uplink/downlink for the relevant linear birds.
73, Mark N8MH
On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 5:31 PM crohtun via AMSAT-BB amsat-bb@amsat.org wrote:
As I pointed out earlier, SatPC32 already has WSJTX lines in the doppler file for CAS4A/B, the XW2 series, and RS44. They’re consistent with K8YSE’s recommendation.
But whatever frequencies are listed in anyone’s doppler control software, there’s always going to be a range due to doppler shift being different between stations. So we really can’t talk about one, discreet frequency for meeting a rover, doing FT4, or anything else. It’s always +/- doppler, and a range will get used on the air regardless of what’s in software.
Ray KN2K
Sent from the all new AOL app for iOS https://apps.apple.com/us/app/aol-news-email-weather-video/id646100661
On Thursday, August 26, 2021, 2:29 PM, wa2ndv@gmail.com wa2ndv@gmail.com wrote:
There should be ONE discreet frequency for FT4 as it is everywhere else, not a range of frequencies.
Once consensus is reached it can be added to the csntechnologies SAT tracker. As of now the frequency proposed by NU1U is in the transponder list for RS-44.
73
Frank
WA2NDV
*From: *Ray Soifer via AMSAT-BB amsat-bb@amsat.org *Sent: *Thursday, August 26, 2021 12:58 PM *To: *cdcardon@comcast.net; amsat-bb@amsat.org *Subject: *[AMSAT-BB] Re: FW: FT4 and CW on RS-44
OK John, you've made a persuasive case, I'll join you in proposing 435.610-620 for FT-4 if users keep their EIRP down to no more than half of what they run on CW or PEP on SSB.
73 Ray W2RS
-----Original Message----- From: Carlos Cardon cdcardon@comcast.net To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Wed, Aug 25, 2021 10:50 am Subject: [AMSAT-BB] FW: FT4 and CW on RS-44un
CW and other digital modes at the bottom of the receive bands seems like a good idea (and easier for us old HF guys to remember..).
73,
Carlos
W7QL
*From:* Carlos Cardon [mailto:cdcardon@comcast.net] *Sent:* Monday, August 23, 2021 12:41 PM *To:* 'john@papays.com' *Subject:* RE: [AMSAT-BB] FT4 and CW on RS-44
Well said, John.
For us old guys, it seems consistent to have CW and Digital at the lower end of the band and SSB in the upper part. The CW and digital signals require much less bandwidth than SSB. So if they can set up and look for each other at the low end, we can avoid some of the QRM we have been hearing.
73,
Carlos
*From:* john@papays.com [mailto:john@papays.com] *Sent:* Monday, August 23, 2021 9:47 AM *To:* amsat-bb@amsat.org *Subject:* [AMSAT-BB] FT4 and CW on RS-44
FT4 activity on RS-44 has been increasing. FT4 can be heard just about everywhere in the passband and this can create problems for SSB and CW users. I have heard FT4 around 435668, 64x,639 and 620. The HF bands are divided into mode segments so CW,SSB and Digital are not in the same areas. On RS-44 there are no segments so it is all modes everywhere. Several days ago I listened to WB9YIG trying to work N1DM around 435639, but every time N1DM would give his callsign a FT4 signal would be on top of him. They finally gave up. I doubt if it was intentional. The FT4 computer was just doing what it was programmed to do. The operator may have not even been listening (not a good idea on sats). Also keep in mind that a FT4 signal is key down continuous carrier, much more demanding on satellite power than SSB or to some extent CW. The beauty of FT4 is supposed to be that you don't need a strong signal to decode, so flea power should work well.
It would be good if all the FT4 operations would move to one area on the transponder. I suggest 435610-435620 because it is the least used area. The top end has become very crowded lately due to some rovers operating in that area. This has encouraged others to operate there as well. Maybe some others have a better suggestion.
FT4 is not the only issue on RS-44. CW activity has been increasing as well. CW and SSB can co-exist, however, CW ops cannot be using CW filters and expect not to interfere with SSB stations. Again we don't have a CW segment so using CW filters are not going to be appropriate. Please use a SSB RX filter when operating CW and make sure you don't hear SSB in your passband before starting up. Same for SSB stations. Don't start up if you hear CW in your passband. Just move to a clear spot.
If you are not computer conrtolled for doppler, you are going to be moving in the passband And you are likely going to slide into another QSO, especially now that RS-44 activity has increased. Please try to keep your position in the passband stable. If your radio can be computer controlled, please take advantage of that so that you don't move. You never have to send dits, whistle or blow into the mic when you are computer controlled. And you won't be transmitting on top of somebody.
Just my opinion of course.
73, John K8YSE
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Mark, have an updated file for Satpc32 and other programs such as GPredict could be great!!!!!
Good point!!!
Rick EA4M
On Thu, Aug 26, 2021, 23:38 Mark L. Hammond marklhammond@gmail.com wrote:
Hi Ray,
I didn’t think the default installation of SatPC32 Doppler.sqf provided those FT4 lines, but maybe so now. That’d be great. Can you kindly post them here so we can see them? My thought has been to create a list of such and get agreement here, while also making it easier for folks to use the agreed upon uplink/downlink for the relevant linear birds.
73, Mark N8MH
On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 5:31 PM crohtun via AMSAT-BB amsat-bb@amsat.org wrote:
As I pointed out earlier, SatPC32 already has WSJTX lines in the doppler file for CAS4A/B, the XW2 series, and RS44. They’re consistent with K8YSE’s recommendation.
But whatever frequencies are listed in anyone’s doppler control software, there’s always going to be a range due to doppler shift being different between stations. So we really can’t talk about one, discreet frequency for meeting a rover, doing FT4, or anything else. It’s always +/- doppler, and a range will get used on the air regardless of what’s in software.
Ray KN2K
Sent from the all new AOL app for iOS https://apps.apple.com/us/app/aol-news-email-weather-video/id646100661
On Thursday, August 26, 2021, 2:29 PM, wa2ndv@gmail.com wa2ndv@gmail.com wrote:
There should be ONE discreet frequency for FT4 as it is everywhere else, not a range of frequencies.
Once consensus is reached it can be added to the csntechnologies SAT tracker. As of now the frequency proposed by NU1U is in the transponder list for RS-44.
73
Frank
WA2NDV
*From: *Ray Soifer via AMSAT-BB amsat-bb@amsat.org *Sent: *Thursday, August 26, 2021 12:58 PM *To: *cdcardon@comcast.net; amsat-bb@amsat.org *Subject: *[AMSAT-BB] Re: FW: FT4 and CW on RS-44
OK John, you've made a persuasive case, I'll join you in proposing 435.610-620 for FT-4 if users keep their EIRP down to no more than half of what they run on CW or PEP on SSB.
73 Ray W2RS
-----Original Message----- From: Carlos Cardon cdcardon@comcast.net To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Wed, Aug 25, 2021 10:50 am Subject: [AMSAT-BB] FW: FT4 and CW on RS-44un
CW and other digital modes at the bottom of the receive bands seems like a good idea (and easier for us old HF guys to remember..).
73,
Carlos
W7QL
*From:* Carlos Cardon [mailto:cdcardon@comcast.net] *Sent:* Monday, August 23, 2021 12:41 PM *To:* 'john@papays.com' *Subject:* RE: [AMSAT-BB] FT4 and CW on RS-44
Well said, John.
For us old guys, it seems consistent to have CW and Digital at the lower end of the band and SSB in the upper part. The CW and digital signals require much less bandwidth than SSB. So if they can set up and look for each other at the low end, we can avoid some of the QRM we have been hearing.
73,
Carlos
*From:* john@papays.com [mailto:john@papays.com] *Sent:* Monday, August 23, 2021 9:47 AM *To:* amsat-bb@amsat.org *Subject:* [AMSAT-BB] FT4 and CW on RS-44
FT4 activity on RS-44 has been increasing. FT4 can be heard just about everywhere in the passband and this can create problems for SSB and CW users. I have heard FT4 around 435668, 64x,639 and 620. The HF bands are divided into mode segments so CW,SSB and Digital are not in the same areas. On RS-44 there are no segments so it is all modes everywhere. Several days ago I listened to WB9YIG trying to work N1DM around 435639, but every time N1DM would give his callsign a FT4 signal would be on top of him. They finally gave up. I doubt if it was intentional. The FT4 computer was just doing what it was programmed to do. The operator may have not even been listening (not a good idea on sats). Also keep in mind that a FT4 signal is key down continuous carrier, much more demanding on satellite power than SSB or to some extent CW. The beauty of FT4 is supposed to be that you don't need a strong signal to decode, so flea power should work well.
It would be good if all the FT4 operations would move to one area on the transponder. I suggest 435610-435620 because it is the least used area. The top end has become very crowded lately due to some rovers operating in that area. This has encouraged others to operate there as well. Maybe some others have a better suggestion.
FT4 is not the only issue on RS-44. CW activity has been increasing as well. CW and SSB can co-exist, however, CW ops cannot be using CW filters and expect not to interfere with SSB stations. Again we don't have a CW segment so using CW filters are not going to be appropriate. Please use a SSB RX filter when operating CW and make sure you don't hear SSB in your passband before starting up. Same for SSB stations. Don't start up if you hear CW in your passband. Just move to a clear spot.
If you are not computer conrtolled for doppler, you are going to be moving in the passband And you are likely going to slide into another QSO, especially now that RS-44 activity has increased. Please try to keep your position in the passband stable. If your radio can be computer controlled, please take advantage of that so that you don't move. You never have to send dits, whistle or blow into the mic when you are computer controlled. And you won't be transmitting on top of somebody.
Just my opinion of course.
73, John K8YSE
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--
Mark L. Hammond [N8MH]
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Folks, These are the lines that appear in my copy of Doppler.SQF. I don't know their history. But I do see that Eric explicitly refers to USB-D and LSB-D modes in the discussion section of the file. They do seem to generalize K8YSE's recommendation. RS-44,435612,145993,USB-D,LSB-D,REV,0,0,V/U Digital Transp. XW-2A,145667,435048,USB-D,LSB-D,REV,0,0,Transponder with wsjt-x XW-2B,145732,435108,USB-D,LSB-D,REV,0,0,Transponder with wsjt-xXW-2C,145797,435168,USB-D,LSB-D,REV,0,0,Transponder with wsjt-x XW-2D,145862,435228,USB-D,LSB-D,REV,0,0,Transponder with wsjt-x XW-2F,145982,435348,USB-D,LSB-D,REV,0,0,Transponder with wsjt-x CAS-4A,145862,435228,USB-D,LSB-D,REV,0,0,Transponder with wsjt-x CAS-4B,145917,435288,USB-D,LSB-D,REV,0,0,Transponder with wsjt-x 73, RayKN2K
-----Original Message----- From: Mark L. Hammond marklhammond@gmail.com To: crohtun crohtun@aol.com Cc: Ray Soifer rsoifer1@aol.com; amsat-bb@amsat.org amsat-bb@amsat.org; cdcardon@comcast.net cdcardon@comcast.net; wa2ndv@gmail.com Sent: Thu, Aug 26, 2021 5:36 pm Subject: Re: [AMSAT-BB] Re: FW: FT4 and CW on RS-44
Hi Ray, I didn’t think the default installation of SatPC32 Doppler.sqf provided those FT4 lines, but maybe so now. That’d be great. Can you kindly post them here so we can see them? My thought has been to create a list of such and get agreement here, while also making it easier for folks to use the agreed upon uplink/downlink for the relevant linear birds. 73,Mark N8MH On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 5:31 PM crohtun via AMSAT-BB amsat-bb@amsat.org wrote:
As I pointed out earlier, SatPC32 already has WSJTX lines in the doppler file for CAS4A/B, the XW2 series, and RS44. They’re consistent with K8YSE’s recommendation. But whatever frequencies are listed in anyone’s doppler control software, there’s always going to be a range due to doppler shift being different between stations. So we really can’t talk about one, discreet frequency for meeting a rover, doing FT4, or anything else. It’s always +/- doppler, and a range will get used on the air regardless of what’s in software. RayKN2K
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On Thursday, August 26, 2021, 2:29 PM, wa2ndv@gmail.com wa2ndv@gmail.com wrote: There should be ONE discreet frequency for FT4 as it is everywhere else, not a range of frequencies. Once consensus is reached it can be added to the csntechnologies SAT tracker. As of now the frequency proposed by NU1U is in the transponder list for RS-44. 73FrankWA2NDV From: Ray Soifer via AMSAT-BB Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2021 12:58 PM To: cdcardon@comcast.net; amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: [AMSAT-BB] Re: FW: FT4 and CW on RS-44 OK John, you've made a persuasive case, I'll join you in proposing 435.610-620 for FT-4 if users keep their EIRP down to no more than half of what they run on CW or PEP on SSB. 73 Ray W2RS -----Original Message----- From: Carlos Cardon cdcardon@comcast.net To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Wed, Aug 25, 2021 10:50 am Subject: [AMSAT-BB] FW: FT4 and CW on RS-44unCW and other digital modes at the bottom of the receive bands seems like a good idea (and easier for us old HF guys to remember..). 73,CarlosW7QL From: Carlos Cardon [mailto:cdcardon@comcast.net] Sent: Monday, August 23, 2021 12:41 PM To: 'john@papays.com' Subject: RE: [AMSAT-BB] FT4 and CW on RS-44 Well said, John. For us old guys, it seems consistent to have CW and Digital at the lower end of the band and SSB in the upper part. The CW and digital signals require much less bandwidth than SSB. So if they can set up and look for each other at the low end, we can avoid some of the QRM we have been hearing. 73,Carlos From: john@papays.com [mailto:john@papays.com] Sent: Monday, August 23, 2021 9:47 AM To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: [AMSAT-BB] FT4 and CW on RS-44 FT4 activity on RS-44 has been increasing. FT4 can be heard just about everywhere in the passband and this can create problems for SSB and CW users. I have heard FT4 around 435668, 64x,639 and 620. The HF bands are divided into mode segments so CW,SSB and Digital are not in the same areas. On RS-44 there are no segments so it is all modes everywhere. Several days ago I listened to WB9YIG trying to work N1DM around 435639, but every time N1DM would give his callsign a FT4 signal would be on top of him. They finally gave up. I doubt if it was intentional. The FT4 computer was just doing what it was programmed to do. The operator may have not even been listening (not a good idea on sats). Also keep in mind that a FT4 signal is key down continuous carrier, much more demanding on satellite power than SSB or to some extent CW. The beauty of FT4 is supposed to be that you don't need a strong signal to decode, so flea power should work well.It would be good if all the FT4 operations would move to one area on the transponder. I suggest 435610-435620 because it is the least used area. The top end has become very crowded lately due to some rovers operating in that area. This has encouraged others to operate there as well. Maybe some others have a better suggestion.FT4 is not the only issue on RS-44. CW activity has been increasing as well. CW and SSB can co-exist, however, CW ops cannot be using CW filters and expect not to interfere with SSB stations. Again we don't have a CW segment so using CW filters are not going to be appropriate. Please use a SSB RX filter when operating CW and make sure you don't hear SSB in your passband before starting up. Same for SSB stations. Don't start up if you hear CW in your passband. Just move to a clear spot.If you are not computer conrtolled for doppler, you are going to be moving in the passband And you are likely going to slide into another QSO, especially now that RS-44 activity has increased. Please try to keep your position in the passband stable. If your radio can be computer controlled, please take advantage of that so that you don't move. You never have to send dits, whistle or blow into the mic when you are computer controlled. And you won't be transmitting on top of somebody.Just my opinion of course. 73, John K8YSE -----------------------------------------------------------
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So 2 kHz above the passband lower end.
73 Steve KS1G
On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 8:35 PM crohtun--- via AMSAT-BB amsat-bb@amsat.org wrote:
Folks,
These are the lines that appear in my copy of Doppler.SQF. I don't know their history. But I do see that Eric explicitly refers to USB-D and LSB-D modes in the discussion section of the file. They do seem to generalize K8YSE's recommendation.
RS-44,435612,145993,USB-D,LSB-D,REV,0,0,V/U Digital Transp. XW-2A,145667,435048,USB-D,LSB-D,REV,0,0,Transponder with wsjt-x XW-2B,145732,435108,USB-D,LSB-D,REV,0,0,Transponder with wsjt-x XW-2C,145797,435168,USB-D,LSB-D,REV,0,0,Transponder with wsjt-x XW-2D,145862,435228,USB-D,LSB-D,REV,0,0,Transponder with wsjt-x XW-2F,145982,435348,USB-D,LSB-D,REV,0,0,Transponder with wsjt-x CAS-4A,145862,435228,USB-D,LSB-D,REV,0,0,Transponder with wsjt-x CAS-4B,145917,435288,USB-D,LSB-D,REV,0,0,Transponder with wsjt-x
73,
Ray KN2K
-----Original Message----- From: Mark L. Hammond marklhammond@gmail.com To: crohtun crohtun@aol.com Cc: Ray Soifer rsoifer1@aol.com; amsat-bb@amsat.org amsat-bb@amsat.org; cdcardon@comcast.net cdcardon@comcast.net; wa2ndv@gmail.com Sent: Thu, Aug 26, 2021 5:36 pm Subject: Re: [AMSAT-BB] Re: FW: FT4 and CW on RS-44
Hi Ray,
I didn’t think the default installation of SatPC32 Doppler.sqf provided those FT4 lines, but maybe so now. That’d be great. Can you kindly post them here so we can see them? My thought has been to create a list of such and get agreement here, while also making it easier for folks to use the agreed upon uplink/downlink for the relevant linear birds.
73, Mark N8MH
On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 5:31 PM crohtun via AMSAT-BB amsat-bb@amsat.org wrote:
As I pointed out earlier, SatPC32 already has WSJTX lines in the doppler file for CAS4A/B, the XW2 series, and RS44. They’re consistent with K8YSE’s recommendation.
But whatever frequencies are listed in anyone’s doppler control software, there’s always going to be a range due to doppler shift being different between stations. So we really can’t talk about one, discreet frequency for meeting a rover, doing FT4, or anything else. It’s always +/- doppler, and a range will get used on the air regardless of what’s in software.
Ray KN2K
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On Thursday, August 26, 2021, 2:29 PM, wa2ndv@gmail.com wa2ndv@gmail.com wrote:
There should be ONE discreet frequency for FT4 as it is everywhere else, not a range of frequencies.
Once consensus is reached it can be added to the csntechnologies SAT tracker. As of now the frequency proposed by NU1U is in the transponder list for RS-44.
73 Frank WA2NDV
*From: *Ray Soifer via AMSAT-BB amsat-bb@amsat.org *Sent: *Thursday, August 26, 2021 12:58 PM *To: *cdcardon@comcast.net; amsat-bb@amsat.org *Subject: *[AMSAT-BB] Re: FW: FT4 and CW on RS-44
OK John, you've made a persuasive case, I'll join you in proposing 435.610-620 for FT-4 if users keep their EIRP down to no more than half of what they run on CW or PEP on SSB.
73 Ray W2RS
-----Original Message----- From: Carlos Cardon cdcardon@comcast.net To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Wed, Aug 25, 2021 10:50 am Subject: [AMSAT-BB] FW: FT4 and CW on RS-44un CW and other digital modes at the bottom of the receive bands seems like a good idea (and easier for us old HF guys to remember..).
73, Carlos W7QL
*From:* Carlos Cardon [mailto:cdcardon@comcast.net] *Sent:* Monday, August 23, 2021 12:41 PM *To:* 'john@papays.com' *Subject:* RE: [AMSAT-BB] FT4 and CW on RS-44
Well said, John.
For us old guys, it seems consistent to have CW and Digital at the lower end of the band and SSB in the upper part. The CW and digital signals require much less bandwidth than SSB. So if they can set up and look for each other at the low end, we can avoid some of the QRM we have been hearing.
73, Carlos
*From:* john@papays.com [mailto:john@papays.com] *Sent:* Monday, August 23, 2021 9:47 AM *To:* amsat-bb@amsat.org *Subject:* [AMSAT-BB] FT4 and CW on RS-44
FT4 activity on RS-44 has been increasing. FT4 can be heard just about everywhere in the passband and this can create problems for SSB and CW users. I have heard FT4 around 435668, 64x,639 and 620. The HF bands are divided into mode segments so CW,SSB and Digital are not in the same areas. On RS-44 there are no segments so it is all modes everywhere. Several days ago I listened to WB9YIG trying to work N1DM around 435639, but every time N1DM would give his callsign a FT4 signal would be on top of him. They finally gave up. I doubt if it was intentional. The FT4 computer was just doing what it was programmed to do. The operator may have not even been listening (not a good idea on sats). Also keep in mind that a FT4 signal is key down continuous carrier, much more demanding on satellite power than SSB or to some extent CW. The beauty of FT4 is supposed to be that you don't need a strong signal to decode, so flea power should work well. It would be good if all the FT4 operations would move to one area on the transponder. I suggest 435610-435620 because it is the least used area. The top end has become very crowded lately due to some rovers operating in that area. This has encouraged others to operate there as well. Maybe some others have a better suggestion. FT4 is not the only issue on RS-44. CW activity has been increasing as well. CW and SSB can co-exist, however, CW ops cannot be using CW filters and expect not to interfere with SSB stations. Again we don't have a CW segment so using CW filters are not going to be appropriate. Please use a SSB RX filter when operating CW and make sure you don't hear SSB in your passband before starting up. Same for SSB stations. Don't start up if you hear CW in your passband. Just move to a clear spot. If you are not computer conrtolled for doppler, you are going to be moving in the passband And you are likely going to slide into another QSO, especially now that RS-44 activity has increased. Please try to keep your position in the passband stable. If your radio can be computer controlled, please take advantage of that so that you don't move. You never have to send dits, whistle or blow into the mic when you are computer controlled. And you won't be transmitting on top of somebody. Just my opinion of course. 73, John K8YSE
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--
Mark L. Hammond [N8MH]
Hi Mark, I don't have SatPC32.
73 Ray Subject: Re: [AMSAT-BB] Re: FW: FT4 and CW on RS-44
Hi Ray, I didn’t think the default installation of SatPC32 Doppler.sqf provided those FT4 lines, but maybe so now. That’d be great. Can you kindly post them here so we can see them? My thought has been to create a list of such and get agreement here, while also making it easier for folks to use the agreed upon uplink/downlink for the relevant linear birds. 73,Mark N8MH On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 5:31 PM crohtun via AMSAT-BB amsat-bb@amsat.org wrote:
As I pointed out earlier, SatPC32 already has WSJTX lines in the doppler file for CAS4A/B, the XW2 series, and RS44. They’re consistent with K8YSE’s recommendation. But whatever frequencies are listed in anyone’s doppler control software, there’s always going to be a range due to doppler shift being different between stations. So we really can’t talk about one, discreet frequency for meeting a rover, doing FT4, or anything else. It’s always +/- doppler, and a range will get used on the air regardless of what’s in software. RayKN2K
Sent from the all new AOL app for iOS
On Thursday, August 26, 2021, 2:29 PM, wa2ndv@gmail.com wa2ndv@gmail.com wrote:
There should be ONE discreet frequency for FT4 as it is everywhere else, not a range of frequencies.
Once consensus is reached it can be added to the csntechnologies SAT tracker. As of now the frequency proposed by NU1U is in the transponder list for RS-44.
73
Frank
WA2NDV
From: Ray Soifer via AMSAT-BB Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2021 12:58 PM To: cdcardon@comcast.net; amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: [AMSAT-BB] Re: FW: FT4 and CW on RS-44
OK John, you've made a persuasive case, I'll join you in proposing 435.610-620 for FT-4 if users keep their EIRP down to no more than half of what they run on CW or PEP on SSB.
73 Ray W2RS
-----Original Message----- From: Carlos Cardon cdcardon@comcast.net To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Wed, Aug 25, 2021 10:50 am Subject: [AMSAT-BB] FW: FT4 and CW on RS-44un
CW and other digital modes at the bottom of the receive bands seems like a good idea (and easier for us old HF guys to remember..).
73,
Carlos
W7QL
From: Carlos Cardon [mailto:cdcardon@comcast.net] Sent: Monday, August 23, 2021 12:41 PM To: 'john@papays.com' Subject: RE: [AMSAT-BB] FT4 and CW on RS-44
Well said, John.
For us old guys, it seems consistent to have CW and Digital at the lower end of the band and SSB in the upper part. The CW and digital signals require much less bandwidth than SSB. So if they can set up and look for each other at the low end, we can avoid some of the QRM we have been hearing.
73,
Carlos
From: john@papays.com [mailto:john@papays.com] Sent: Monday, August 23, 2021 9:47 AM To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: [AMSAT-BB] FT4 and CW on RS-44
FT4 activity on RS-44 has been increasing. FT4 can be heard just about everywhere in the passband and this can create problems for SSB and CW users. I have heard FT4 around 435668, 64x,639 and 620. The HF bands are divided into mode segments so CW,SSB and Digital are not in the same areas. On RS-44 there are no segments so it is all modes everywhere. Several days ago I listened to WB9YIG trying to work N1DM around 435639, but every time N1DM would give his callsign a FT4 signal would be on top of him. They finally gave up. I doubt if it was intentional. The FT4 computer was just doing what it was programmed to do. The operator may have not even been listening (not a good idea on sats). Also keep in mind that a FT4 signal is key down continuous carrier, much more demanding on satellite power than SSB or to some extent CW. The beauty of FT4 is supposed to be that you don't need a strong signal to decode, so flea power should work well.
It would be good if all the FT4 operations would move to one area on the transponder. I suggest 435610-435620 because it is the least used area. The top end has become very crowded lately due to some rovers operating in that area. This has encouraged others to operate there as well. Maybe some others have a better suggestion.
FT4 is not the only issue on RS-44. CW activity has been increasing as well. CW and SSB can co-exist, however, CW ops cannot be using CW filters and expect not to interfere with SSB stations. Again we don't have a CW segment so using CW filters are not going to be appropriate. Please use a SSB RX filter when operating CW and make sure you don't hear SSB in your passband before starting up. Same for SSB stations. Don't start up if you hear CW in your passband. Just move to a clear spot.
If you are not computer conrtolled for doppler, you are going to be moving in the passband And you are likely going to slide into another QSO, especially now that RS-44 activity has increased. Please try to keep your position in the passband stable. If your radio can be computer controlled, please take advantage of that so that you don't move. You never have to send dits, whistle or blow into the mic when you are computer controlled. And you won't be transmitting on top of somebody.
Just my opinion of course.
73, John K8YSE
-----------------------------------------------------------
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There are two Rays in the conversion :)
Mark L. Hammond [N8MH] AMSAT Director and Command Station
On Fri, Aug 27, 2021 at 10:58 AM Ray Soifer rsoifer1@aol.com wrote:
Hi Mark,
I don't have SatPC32.
73 Ray Subject: Re: [AMSAT-BB] Re: FW: FT4 and CW on RS-44
Hi Ray,
I didn’t think the default installation of SatPC32 Doppler.sqf provided those FT4 lines, but maybe so now. That’d be great. Can you kindly post them here so we can see them? My thought has been to create a list of such and get agreement here, while also making it easier for folks to use the agreed upon uplink/downlink for the relevant linear birds.
73, Mark N8MH
On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 5:31 PM crohtun via AMSAT-BB amsat-bb@amsat.org wrote:
As I pointed out earlier, SatPC32 already has WSJTX lines in the doppler file for CAS4A/B, the XW2 series, and RS44. They’re consistent with K8YSE’s recommendation.
But whatever frequencies are listed in anyone’s doppler control software, there’s always going to be a range due to doppler shift being different between stations. So we really can’t talk about one, discreet frequency for meeting a rover, doing FT4, or anything else. It’s always +/- doppler, and a range will get used on the air regardless of what’s in software.
Ray KN2K
Sent from the all new AOL app for iOS https://apps.apple.com/us/app/aol-news-email-weather-video/id646100661
On Thursday, August 26, 2021, 2:29 PM, wa2ndv@gmail.com wa2ndv@gmail.com wrote:
There should be ONE discreet frequency for FT4 as it is everywhere else, not a range of frequencies.
Once consensus is reached it can be added to the csntechnologies SAT tracker. As of now the frequency proposed by NU1U is in the transponder list for RS-44.
73
Frank
WA2NDV
*From: *Ray Soifer via AMSAT-BB amsat-bb@amsat.org *Sent: *Thursday, August 26, 2021 12:58 PM *To: *cdcardon@comcast.net; amsat-bb@amsat.org *Subject: *[AMSAT-BB] Re: FW: FT4 and CW on RS-44
OK John, you've made a persuasive case, I'll join you in proposing 435.610-620 for FT-4 if users keep their EIRP down to no more than half of what they run on CW or PEP on SSB.
73 Ray W2RS
-----Original Message----- From: Carlos Cardon cdcardon@comcast.net To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Wed, Aug 25, 2021 10:50 am Subject: [AMSAT-BB] FW: FT4 and CW on RS-44un
CW and other digital modes at the bottom of the receive bands seems like a good idea (and easier for us old HF guys to remember..).
73,
Carlos
W7QL
*From:* Carlos Cardon [mailto:cdcardon@comcast.net] *Sent:* Monday, August 23, 2021 12:41 PM *To:* 'john@papays.com' *Subject:* RE: [AMSAT-BB] FT4 and CW on RS-44
Well said, John.
For us old guys, it seems consistent to have CW and Digital at the lower end of the band and SSB in the upper part. The CW and digital signals require much less bandwidth than SSB. So if they can set up and look for each other at the low end, we can avoid some of the QRM we have been hearing.
73,
Carlos
*From:* john@papays.com [mailto:john@papays.com] *Sent:* Monday, August 23, 2021 9:47 AM *To:* amsat-bb@amsat.org *Subject:* [AMSAT-BB] FT4 and CW on RS-44
FT4 activity on RS-44 has been increasing. FT4 can be heard just about everywhere in the passband and this can create problems for SSB and CW users. I have heard FT4 around 435668, 64x,639 and 620. The HF bands are divided into mode segments so CW,SSB and Digital are not in the same areas. On RS-44 there are no segments so it is all modes everywhere. Several days ago I listened to WB9YIG trying to work N1DM around 435639, but every time N1DM would give his callsign a FT4 signal would be on top of him. They finally gave up. I doubt if it was intentional. The FT4 computer was just doing what it was programmed to do. The operator may have not even been listening (not a good idea on sats). Also keep in mind that a FT4 signal is key down continuous carrier, much more demanding on satellite power than SSB or to some extent CW. The beauty of FT4 is supposed to be that you don't need a strong signal to decode, so flea power should work well.
It would be good if all the FT4 operations would move to one area on the transponder. I suggest 435610-435620 because it is the least used area. The top end has become very crowded lately due to some rovers operating in that area. This has encouraged others to operate there as well. Maybe some others have a better suggestion.
FT4 is not the only issue on RS-44. CW activity has been increasing as well. CW and SSB can co-exist, however, CW ops cannot be using CW filters and expect not to interfere with SSB stations. Again we don't have a CW segment so using CW filters are not going to be appropriate. Please use a SSB RX filter when operating CW and make sure you don't hear SSB in your passband before starting up. Same for SSB stations. Don't start up if you hear CW in your passband. Just move to a clear spot.
If you are not computer conrtolled for doppler, you are going to be moving in the passband And you are likely going to slide into another QSO, especially now that RS-44 activity has increased. Please try to keep your position in the passband stable. If your radio can be computer controlled, please take advantage of that so that you don't move. You never have to send dits, whistle or blow into the mic when you are computer controlled. And you won't be transmitting on top of somebody.
Just my opinion of course.
73, John K8YSE
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--
Mark L. Hammond [N8MH]
participants (20)
-
Ant Lefebvre -
Bob Liddy (K8BL) -
Carl Estey -
Carlos Cardon -
crohtun -
crohtun＠aol.com
-
Humberto González -
john＠papays.com -
Joseph B. Fitzgerald -
Mark Johns, K0JM -
Mark L. Hammond -
Nigel A. Gunn G8IFF/W8IFF -
Rafael Valdez G. - XE2RV -
Ray Soifer -
Ricardo Navarrete -
Robert McGwier -
Stephan Greene -
wa2ndv＠gmail.com -
Yono Adisoemarta -
Zach Metzinger