Re: Two hundred 437 MHz satallites launch March 16 + WebSDR
Is CDMA an authorized emission type for the Amateur service? What is the chipping rate/bandwidth of these? Don't the PRN sequences need to be made public so as not to be classified as "encryption" ? Detailed specs on the Sprites is in short supply. Has anyone done a link budget, seems like allot of spreading gain is required to hear 10mW form a 300km orbit which translates into allot of bandwidth in a part of the band usually reserved for narrow band modes. The lack of transparency on many of these projects that use the amateur bands seems to run against the spirit of amateur radio in my opinion.
Howie AB2S
70 CM is not just for the ham bands, it is a shared band check the rules wa4hfn Damon
On Tue, Mar 4, 2014 at 2:30 PM, Howie DeFelice [email protected]wrote:
Is CDMA an authorized emission type for the Amateur service? What is the chipping rate/bandwidth of these? Don't the PRN sequences need to be made public so as not to be classified as "encryption" ? Detailed specs on the Sprites is in short supply. Has anyone done a link budget, seems like allot of spreading gain is required to hear 10mW form a 300km orbit which translates into allot of bandwidth in a part of the band usually reserved for narrow band modes. The lack of transparency on many of these projects that use the amateur bands seems to run against the spirit of amateur radio in my opinion.
Howie AB2S _______________________________________________ Sent via [email protected]. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Yes, that is true, so are these licensed under an authority other than amateur radio ? If they aren't then my questions stand.
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2014 14:55:52 -0600 Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Re: Two hundred 437 MHz satallites launch March 16 + WebSDR From: [email protected] To: [email protected] CC: [email protected]
70 CM is not just for the ham bands, it is a shared band check the ruleswa4hfn Damon
On Tue, Mar 4, 2014 at 2:30 PM, Howie DeFelice [email protected] wrote:
Is CDMA an authorized emission type for the Amateur service? What is the chipping rate/bandwidth of these? Don't the PRN sequences need to be made public so as not to be classified as "encryption" ? Detailed specs on the Sprites is in short supply. Has anyone done a link budget, seems like allot of spreading gain is required to hear 10mW form a 300km orbit which translates into allot of bandwidth in a part of the band usually reserved for narrow band modes. The lack of transparency on many of these projects that use the amateur bands seems to run against the spirit of amateur radio in my opinion.
Howie
AB2S
_______________________________________________
Sent via [email protected]. Opinions expressed are those of the author.
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Howie,
CDMA is actually actively promoted by the ITU. Indeed all the details have to be published before launch, so everyone can demodulate it.
Citing from the ITU satellite-amateur handbook: *"Amateur and amateur-satellite systems should have technical characteristics that provide worldwide interoperability, and allow origination, relay and termination of communications independent of other radio services. Design emphasis should be placed on reliability, robustness and flexibility of reconfiguration for efficient emergency communications. Multiple access techniques (FDMA, TDMA and CDMA) should be selected for optimum spectrum efficiency and frequency reuse. The selection of modulation techniques should take into account resistance to interference and immunity to adverse propagation conditions."*
I have been researching this for the QB50 mission, but strong pressures (mainly from the US) within the project killed the idea early on.
The US is now actively putting satellites in 70cm with experimental licenses, which unfortunately means they could use CDMA without providing the spreading codes. The (majority of the) rest of the world is still using the amateur satellite service.
Using CDMA would be beneficial for sharing the spectrum, but required coordination as well. I was trying to standardize the parameters (for QB50), so the IARU could be handing out orthogonal codes to satellite teams, so avoid clashes. But welcome to politics.....
Wouter PA3WEG
On Tue, Mar 4, 2014 at 10:16 PM, Howie DeFelice [email protected]wrote:
Yes, that is true, so are these licensed under an authority other than amateur radio ? If they aren't then my questions stand.
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2014 14:55:52 -0600 Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Re: Two hundred 437 MHz satallites launch March 16
- WebSDR
From: [email protected] To: [email protected] CC: [email protected]
70 CM is not just for the ham bands, it is a shared band check the ruleswa4hfn Damon
On Tue, Mar 4, 2014 at 2:30 PM, Howie DeFelice [email protected] wrote:
Is CDMA an authorized emission type for the Amateur service? What is the chipping rate/bandwidth of these? Don't the PRN sequences need to be made public so as not to be classified as "encryption" ? Detailed specs on the Sprites is in short supply. Has anyone done a link budget, seems like allot of spreading gain is required to hear 10mW form a 300km orbit which translates into allot of bandwidth in a part of the band usually reserved for narrow band modes. The lack of transparency on many of these projects that use the amateur bands seems to run against the spirit of amateur radio in my opinion.
Howie
AB2S
Sent via [email protected]. Opinions expressed are those of the author.
Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via [email protected]. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Hi Wouter,
I personally agree with the ITU recommendations and think that CDMA/ spread spectrum techniques can be useful for amateur satellite communications. Unfortunately individual national regulatory entities (especially the U.S. FCC) can take a very long time to adopt ITU recommendations. Current FCC rules define three spreading sequences based on defined tapped linear sequence generators; one 7 bit, one 13 bit and one 19 bit. That makes it difficult to deploy an effective CDMA system. I am sure provisions could be made for a STA ( special temporary authority) but I would anticipate this to be an involved process.
I believe the current efforts by the ARRL to give amateurs more flexibility by adopting maximum bandwidth restrictions vs maximum symbol rate restrictions is a move in the right direction. If the purpose of amateur radio is to advance the state of the art, the rules need to be flexible enough to accommodate innovation.
Of course, these are just the opinions of one person. I am sure there are as many opinions as there are subscribers to this list :) And yes, politics can be a great attenuator to progress...
Howie, AB2S
Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2014 11:48:40 +0100 Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Re: Two hundred 437 MHz satallites launch March 16 + WebSDR From: [email protected] To: [email protected] CC: [email protected]; [email protected]
Howie,
CDMA is actually actively promoted by the ITU. Indeed all the details have to be published before launch, so everyone can demodulate it.
Citing from the ITU satellite-amateur handbook: "Amateur and amateur-satellite systems should have technical characteristics that provide worldwide interoperability, and allow origination, relay and termination of communications independent of other radio services. Design emphasis should be placed on reliability, robustness and flexibility of reconfiguration for efficient emergency communications. Multiple access techniques (FDMA, TDMA and CDMA) should be selected for optimum spectrum efficiency and frequency reuse. The selection of modulation techniques should take into account resistance to interference and immunity to adverse propagation conditions."
I have been researching this for the QB50 mission, but strong pressures (mainly from the US) within the project killed the idea early on.
The US is now actively putting satellites in 70cm with experimental licenses, which unfortunately means they could use CDMA without providing the spreading codes. The (majority of the) rest of the world is still using the amateur satellite service.
Using CDMA would be beneficial for sharing the spectrum, but required coordination as well. I was trying to standardize the parameters (for QB50), so the IARU could be handing out orthogonal codes to satellite teams, so avoid clashes. But welcome to politics.....
Wouter PA3WEG
On Tue, Mar 4, 2014 at 10:16 PM, Howie DeFelice [email protected] wrote:
Yes, that is true, so are these licensed under an authority other than amateur radio ? If they aren't then my questions stand.
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2014 14:55:52 -0600
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Re: Two hundred 437 MHz satallites launch March 16 + WebSDR
From: [email protected]
70 CM is not just for the ham bands, it is a shared band check the ruleswa4hfn Damon
On Tue, Mar 4, 2014 at 2:30 PM, Howie DeFelice [email protected] wrote:
Is CDMA an authorized emission type for the Amateur service? What is the chipping rate/bandwidth of these? Don't the PRN sequences need to be made public so as not to be classified as "encryption" ? Detailed specs on the Sprites is in short supply. Has anyone done a link budget, seems like allot of spreading gain is required to hear 10mW form a 300km orbit which translates into allot of bandwidth in a part of the band usually reserved for narrow band modes. The lack of transparency on many of these projects that use the amateur bands seems to run against the spirit of amateur radio in my opinion.
Howie
AB2S
_______________________________________________
Sent via [email protected]. Opinions expressed are those of the author.
Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
_______________________________________________
Sent via [email protected]. Opinions expressed are those of the author.
Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Good Morning, Howie;
I don't believe there has been any limitation (in the US, anyway) on SS emission types on 70cm and above since at least the late 1990's. I was hoping someone else would chime in since surely someone in this group knows more about that than I, but I'm pretty sure you can use whatever DS technique you want provided that whatever other direction in part 97 is followed. It seems things are pretty liberal to my reading, but I haven't had occasion to play in that space.
It's my understanding that RM-11708--the current petition you mentioned--deals only with HF and has nothing to do symbol rates or anything else that would affect 70cm. That said, I do think it has everything to do with Wouter's concern about openness. It makes little difference to my daughter and me if the transmissions in amateur bands--satellite or otherwise--are operating under part 97, part 5, or part 15 if they are by design unintelligible to all but a select few. But that is only my picture of things. An "HF only" petition may be relevant to this group in the sense that this group has in the past put quite a bit of thought into this particular subject. The satellite community may have interesting perspective on some of this from its own experiences. If this subject is important to you the ARRL is asking for your thoughts right now:
http://www.arrl.org/news/arrl-board-requests-member-comments-about-digital-m...
Enough of that digression....one other thing that *may* be an issue to the satellite community is that the current SS rules might have some limitations in regard to international communications, but that too may be history. How that fits in with the *amateur satellite service* is not something I can answer, but if it is an impediment to a worthy project it would certainly have my support to change of needed, for whatever that is worth.
Andy K0SM/2
On Mar 10, 2014, at 12:51 PM, Howie DeFelice [email protected] wrote:
Hi Wouter,
I personally agree with the ITU recommendations and think that CDMA/ spread spectrum techniques can be useful for amateur satellite communications. Unfortunately individual national regulatory entities (especially the U.S. FCC) can take a very long time to adopt ITU recommendations. Current FCC rules define three spreading sequences based on defined tapped linear sequence generators; one 7 bit, one 13 bit and one 19 bit. That makes it difficult to deploy an effective CDMA system. I am sure provisions could be made for a STA ( special temporary authority) but I would anticipate this to be an involved process.
I believe the current efforts by the ARRL to give amateurs more flexibility by adopting maximum bandwidth restrictions vs maximum symbol rate restrictions is a move in the right direction. If the purpose of amateur radio is to advance the state of the art, the rules need to be flexible enough to accommodate innovation.
Of course, these are just the opinions of one person. I am sure there are as many opinions as there are subscribers to this list :) And yes, politics can be a great attenuator to progress...
Howie, AB2S
Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2014 11:48:40 +0100 Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Re: Two hundred 437 MHz satallites launch March 16 + WebSDR From: [email protected] To: [email protected] CC: [email protected]; [email protected]
Howie,
CDMA is actually actively promoted by the ITU. Indeed all the details have to be published before launch, so everyone can demodulate it.
Citing from the ITU satellite-amateur handbook: "Amateur and amateur-satellite systems should have technical characteristics that provide worldwide interoperability, and allow origination, relay and termination of communications independent of other radio services. Design emphasis should be placed on reliability, robustness and flexibility of reconfiguration for efficient emergency communications. Multiple access techniques (FDMA, TDMA and CDMA) should be selected for optimum spectrum efficiency and frequency reuse. The selection of modulation techniques should take into account resistance to interference and immunity to adverse propagation conditions."
I have been researching this for the QB50 mission, but strong pressures (mainly from the US) within the project killed the idea early on.
The US is now actively putting satellites in 70cm with experimental licenses, which unfortunately means they could use CDMA without providing the spreading codes. The (majority of the) rest of the world is still using the amateur satellite service.
Using CDMA would be beneficial for sharing the spectrum, but required coordination as well. I was trying to standardize the parameters (for QB50), so the IARU could be handing out orthogonal codes to satellite teams, so avoid clashes. But welcome to politics.....
Wouter PA3WEG
On Tue, Mar 4, 2014 at 10:16 PM, Howie DeFelice [email protected] wrote:
Yes, that is true, so are these licensed under an authority other than amateur radio ? If they aren't then my questions stand.
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2014 14:55:52 -0600
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Re: Two hundred 437 MHz satallites launch March 16 + WebSDR
From: [email protected]
70 CM is not just for the ham bands, it is a shared band check the ruleswa4hfn Damon
On Tue, Mar 4, 2014 at 2:30 PM, Howie DeFelice [email protected] wrote:
Is CDMA an authorized emission type for the Amateur service? What is the chipping rate/bandwidth of these? Don't the PRN sequences need to be made public so as not to be classified as "encryption" ? Detailed specs on the Sprites is in short supply. Has anyone done a link budget, seems like allot of spreading gain is required to hear 10mW form a 300km orbit which translates into allot of bandwidth in a part of the band usually reserved for narrow band modes. The lack of transparency on many of these projects that use the amateur bands seems to run against the spirit of amateur radio in my opinion.
Howie
AB2S
Sent via [email protected]. Opinions expressed are those of the author.
Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via [email protected]. Opinions expressed are those of the author.
Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via [email protected]. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
It's my understanding that RM-11708--the current petition you
mentioned--deals only with HF
and has nothing to do symbol rates or
anything else that would affect 70cm. Andrew, As I read it RM-11708 directly affects the amateur satellite service at 144 and 435 MHz. RM-11708 can be read at http://apps.fcc.gov/ecfs/comment/view?id=6017477458 It proposes to "delete all references to symbol rate from Section 97.307(f)" http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/retrieveECFR?gp&n=47y5.0.1.1.6&r=PART#47... That would also remove the 1200 Baud restriction on 144 and the 19600 Baud limit on 435 MHz. I noted a reference to "SS" in a previous email. Some people use SS as a convenient abbreviation for Spread Spectrum but the FCC uses it differently. The FCC define the two letters "SS" as a separate term not an abbreviation, see Definitions 97.3(c)(8) http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-2011-title47-vol5/xml/CFR-2011-title47-vol5...
On Tuesday, 11 March 2014, 12:35, Andrew Flowers [email protected] wrote:
Good Morning, Howie;
I don't believe there has been any limitation (in the US, anyway) on SS emission types on 70cm and above since at least the late 1990's. I was hoping someone else would chime in since surely someone in this group knows more about that than I, but I'm pretty sure you can use whatever DS technique you want provided that whatever other direction in part 97 is followed. It seems things are pretty liberal to my reading, but I haven't had occasion to play in that space.
It's my understanding that RM-11708--the current petition you mentioned--deals only with HF and has nothing to do symbol rates or anything else that would affect 70cm. That said, I do think it has everything to do with Wouter's concern about openness. It makes little difference to my daughter and me if the transmissions in amateur bands--satellite or otherwise--are operating under part 97, part 5, or part 15 if they are by design unintelligible to all but a select few. But that is only my picture of things. An "HF only" petition may be relevant to this group in the sense that this group has in the past put quite a bit of thought into this particular subject. The satellite community may have interesting perspective on some of this from its own experiences. If this subject is important to you the ARRL is asking for your thoughts right now:
http://www.arrl.org/news/arrl-board-requests-member-comments-about-digital-m...
Enough of that digression....one other thing that *may* be an issue to the satellite community is that the current SS rules might have some limitations in regard to international communications, but that too may be history. How that fits in with the *amateur satellite service* is not something I can answer, but if it is an impediment to a worthy project it would certainly have my support to change of needed, for whatever that is worth.
Andy K0SM/2
On Mar 10, 2014, at 12:51 PM, Howie DeFelice [email protected] wrote:
Hi Wouter,
I personally agree with the ITU recommendations and think that CDMA/ spread spectrum techniques can be useful for amateur satellite communications. Unfortunately individual national regulatory entities (especially the U.S. FCC) can take a very long time to adopt ITU recommendations. Current FCC rules define three spreading sequences based on defined tapped linear sequence generators; one 7 bit, one 13 bit and one 19 bit. That makes it
difficult to deploy an effective CDMA system. I am sure provisions could be made for a STA ( special temporary authority) but I would anticipate this to be an involved process.
I believe the current efforts by the ARRL to give amateurs more flexibility by adopting maximum bandwidth restrictions vs maximum symbol rate restrictions is a move in the right direction. If the purpose of amateur radio is to advance the state of the art, the rules need to be flexible enough to accommodate innovation.
Of course, these are just the opinions of one person. I am sure there are as many opinions as there are subscribers to this list :) And yes, politics can be a great attenuator to progress...
Howie, AB2S
Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2014 11:48:40 +0100 Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Re: Two
hundred 437 MHz satallites launch March 16 + WebSDR
From: [email protected] To: [email protected] CC: [email protected]; [email protected]
Howie,
CDMA is actually actively promoted by the ITU. Indeed all the details have to be published before launch, so everyone can demodulate it.
Citing from the ITU satellite-amateur handbook: "Amateur and amateur-satellite systems should have technical characteristics that provide worldwide interoperability, and allow origination, relay and termination of communications independent of other radio services. Design emphasis should be placed on reliability, robustness and flexibility of reconfiguration for efficient emergency communications. Multiple access techniques (FDMA, TDMA and CDMA) should be selected for optimum spectrum efficiency and frequency reuse. The selection of modulation techniques should take into account resistance to interference and immunity to adverse propagation conditions."
I have been researching this for the QB50 mission, but strong pressures (mainly from the
US) within the project killed the idea early on.
The US is now actively putting satellites in 70cm with experimental licenses, which unfortunately means they could use CDMA without providing the spreading codes. The (majority of the) rest of the world is still using the amateur satellite service.
Using CDMA would be beneficial for sharing the spectrum, but required coordination as well. I was trying to standardize the parameters (for QB50), so the IARU could be handing out orthogonal codes to satellite teams, so avoid clashes. But welcome to politics.....
Wouter PA3WEG
On Tue, Mar 4, 2014 at 10:16 PM, Howie DeFelice [email protected] wrote:
Yes, that is true, so are these licensed under an authority other than amateur radio ? If they aren't then my questions stand.
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2014 14:55:52 -0600
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Re: Two hundred 437 MHz satallites launch March 16 + WebSDR
From: [email protected]
70 CM is not just for the ham bands, it is a shared band check the ruleswa4hfn Damon
On Tue, Mar 4, 2014 at 2:30 PM, Howie DeFelice [email protected] wrote:
Is CDMA an authorized emission type for the Amateur service? What is the chipping rate/bandwidth of these? Don't the PRN sequences need to be made public so as not to be classified as "encryption" ? Detailed specs on the Sprites is in short supply. Has anyone done a link budget, seems like allot of spreading gain is required to hear 10mW form a 300km orbit which translates into allot
of bandwidth in a part of the band usually reserved for narrow band modes. The lack of transparency on many of these projects that use the amateur bands seems to run against the spirit of amateur radio in my opinion.
Howie
AB2S
Sent via [email protected]. Opinions expressed are those of the author.
Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via [email protected]. Opinions expressed are those of the author.
Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
program!
Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via [email protected]. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
_______________________________________________ Sent via [email protected]. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
An SS emission is defined as a limited subset of Spread Spectrum emissions. Only emissions which have an X in both symbols 2 and 3 of the ITU Emissions Designator are classified as SS. The use of those "X" symbol SS emissions is restricted in the USA to frequencies above 420 MHz
73 Trevor M5AKA
op 11-03-14 14:34, M5AKA schreef:
It's my understanding that RM-11708--the current petition you
mentioned--deals only with HF
and has nothing to do symbol rates or
anything else that would affect 70cm.
Andrew,
As I read it RM-11708 directly affects the amateur satellite service at 144 and 435 MHz. RM-11708 can be read at http://apps.fcc.gov/ecfs/comment/view?id=6017477458
It proposes to "delete all references to symbol rate from Section 97.307(f)" http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/retrieveECFR?gp&n=47y5.0.1.1.6&r=PART#47...
That would also remove the 1200 Baud restriction on 144 and the 19600 Baud limit on 435 MHz.
I noted a reference to "SS" in a previous email. Some people use SS as a convenient abbreviation for Spread Spectrum but the FCC uses it differently. The FCC define the two letters "SS" as a separate term not an abbreviation, see Definitions 97.3(c)(8) http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-2011-title47-vol5/xml/CFR-2011-title47-vol5...
Keep in mind that the downlink is not effected by usa rules so nobody is stopping a sat from downlinking 1M2 or more on 2 meter, offcourse it does not fit in the sat subband but that is not of concern to the ITU.
73 Andre PE1RDW
participants (6)
-
Andre -
Andrew Flowers -
damon runion -
Howie DeFelice -
M5AKA -
Wouter Weggelaar