I believe this mail ought to be forwarded to *ALL* amateur radio satellite organisations.
We've - (GM1SXX & LA2QAA) - said it often enough in the last 10 years but if we persist, somebody just might finally get the message.
Commander John Brannegan G4IHJ made us aware of the problem in 1994 ... so far, to the best of my knowledge, it's been totally ignored.
Please *DO* note the last paragraph.
73 John. la2qaa@amsat.org To: eu-amsat@yahoogroups.com From: allan_gm1sxx@hotmail.com Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 08:33:45 +0000 Subject: [eu-amsat] The IARU, Satellite Frequency Co-ordination and the CUBESAT Bands.
Hi Folks.
Having read through the material pointed to by Trevor, it seems the
case that unco-ordinated satellites and the proliferation of
University CUBESATs on 2M and 70Cms (the prime bands for linear
transponder birds), are indeed a problem that is not being addressed,
or about to be addressed, any time soon. Sure, there will be talk
about addressing the problem, but that's all.
As best I can understand, the IARU believes it is an issue for local
(National) radio societies. With no-one 'steering the ship', as it
were, it's hardly any wonder it ran aground a long time ago.
Complaining to your national radio society is unlikely to carry much
clout for a satellite builder at the other end of the world. In
short, it's a free-for-all.
It's not a new problem either, see Altruistic radio amateurs (1994)
ftp://ftp.amsat.org/amsat/articles/satgen/sgen268.txt
John GM4IHJ noted this growing problem 14 *years* ago, and yet nobody
seems to care. Perhaps we really do get what we deserve.
It's likely that AMSAT will be a forgotten organisation once the two
most useful band segments we are allowed are littered with 'me-too'
satellites.
Can you imagine a future scenario....not too far in the future.
'Linear transponders on 2m & 70Cms?'.... don't be silly, those are the
Cubesat bands :-).
73 Al.
GM1SXX
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I believe this mail ought to be forwarded to *ALL* amateur radio satellite organisations.
We've - (GM1SXX & LA2QAA) - said it often enough in the last 10 years but if we persist, somebody just might finally get the message.
Commander John Brannegan G4IHJ made us aware of the problem in 1994 ... so far, to the best of my knowledge, it's been totally ignored.
Please *DO* note the last paragraph.
73 John. la2qaa@amsat.org
John, you are so right...
If AMSAT-NA persists in it's idiotic FM voice LEO's they are certainly not helping the cause...
The money should be sent to Germany to help with P3E...I've been saying that long prior to the launch of AO-51, at a number of conventions I attended, to no avail...
I guess someone in there has a profit motive we know nothing about... The guise at the time was to encourage new members..And I would bet the membership has gone down...they will never report membership levels, and I can't imagine why that would be a secret??
The skill level with AO51 is to buy an HT, and press a button...I can't imagine that would hold anyone's interest for long...level of difficulty.... equal to a cell phone...
Hopefully, the rest of the world's AMSAT's will save the operation and interest of amateur ssb/cw BANDWIDTH SATELLITES, to enable at least several minutes of REAL COMMUNICATION, instead of the ridiculous callsign/gridsquare exchange that is occurring now...
My meager contributions are now going to AMSAT-DL, and I've been supporting Project Oscar and AMSAT-NA for 28 years...so I'm not exactly the new kid on the block!!
And it looks like US high school graduates are about the same level as other countries 9th graders...
And don't any one give me any BS about my loyalty...I was a navy fighter pilot in WWII, Korea and Vietnam before I retired in 1967..
73, Dave, WB6LLO dguimon1@san.rr.com
Disagree: I learn....
Pulling for P3E...
The FM birds are all that I have access to at the moment. I personally don't mind the fast paced callsign/grid exchange, but that doesn't seem to float some people's boat. I do just fine. My income is very limited, since being 14 years old doesn't really pay that much. I cannot afford some of these fancy all mode rigs that can even make you a cup of coffee. All I've got in my inventory is several FM UHF and VHF rigs that get me on the FM birds.
Amateur Radio is a wide spectrum. There's lots of different things that can take place in different ways. Some rely on the ionosphere to get their contact, and other's rely on the pass predictions. It's not easy to float everybody's boat, but most of the time we seem to get along OK. Where the real inconsistencies begin to take effect is when there is one organization that powers different interests, and when it is blamed for entertaining one interest at the current time, but not another.
Would it be possible for you all to stop complaining and start volunteering for anything? All of this eQRM about "Oh let's get a real bird in the air" is driving me nuts. Volunteer. Make a "real" bird happen, but don't press that send button if it can be interpreted as eQRM.
And by the way, I think getting anything launched into space and then successfully working is quite an accomplishment.
On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 12:23 AM, Dave Guimont dguimon1@san.rr.com wrote:
I believe this mail ought to be forwarded to *ALL* amateur radio satellite organisations.
We've - (GM1SXX & LA2QAA) - said it often enough in the last 10 years but if we persist, somebody just might finally get the message.
Commander John Brannegan G4IHJ made us aware of the problem in 1994 ... so far, to the best of my knowledge, it's been totally ignored.
Please *DO* note the last paragraph.
73 John. la2qaa@amsat.org
John, you are so right...
If AMSAT-NA persists in it's idiotic FM voice LEO's they are certainly not helping the cause...
The money should be sent to Germany to help with P3E...I've been saying that long prior to the launch of AO-51, at a number of conventions I attended, to no avail...
I guess someone in there has a profit motive we know nothing about... The guise at the time was to encourage new members..And I would bet the membership has gone down...they will never report membership levels, and I can't imagine why that would be a secret??
The skill level with AO51 is to buy an HT, and press a button...I can't imagine that would hold anyone's interest for long...level of difficulty.... equal to a cell phone...
Hopefully, the rest of the world's AMSAT's will save the operation and interest of amateur ssb/cw BANDWIDTH SATELLITES, to enable at least several minutes of REAL COMMUNICATION, instead of the ridiculous callsign/gridsquare exchange that is occurring now...
My meager contributions are now going to AMSAT-DL, and I've been supporting Project Oscar and AMSAT-NA for 28 years...so I'm not exactly the new kid on the block!!
And it looks like US high school graduates are about the same level as other countries 9th graders...
And don't any one give me any BS about my loyalty...I was a navy fighter pilot in WWII, Korea and Vietnam before I retired in 1967..
73, Dave, WB6LLO dguimon1@san.rr.com Disagree: I learn.... Pulling for P3E...
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Guimont" dguimon1@san.rr.com To: la2qaa@AMSAT.Org Cc: amsat-bb@AMSAT.Org Sent: Monday, June 16, 2008 7:23 AM Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Frequency Co-ordination.
I believe this mail ought to be forwarded to *ALL* amateur radio satellite organisations.
We've - (GM1SXX & LA2QAA) - said it often enough in the last 10 years but if we persist, somebody just might finally get the message.
Commander John Brannegan G4IHJ made us aware of the problem in 1994 ... so far, to the best of my knowledge, it's been totally ignored.
Please *DO* note the last paragraph.
73 John. la2qaa@amsat.org
John, you are so right...
If AMSAT-NA persists in it's idiotic FM voice LEO's they are certainly not helping the cause...
The money should be sent to Germany to help with P3E...I've been saying that long prior to the launch of AO-51, at a number of conventions I attended, to no avail...
I guess someone in there has a profit motive we know nothing about... The guise at the time was to encourage new members..And I would bet the membership has gone down...they will never report membership levels, and I can't imagine why that would be a secret??
The skill level with AO51 is to buy an HT, and press a button...I can't imagine that would hold anyone's interest for long...level of difficulty.... equal to a cell phone...
Hopefully, the rest of the world's AMSAT's will save the operation and interest of amateur ssb/cw BANDWIDTH SATELLITES, to enable at least several minutes of REAL COMMUNICATION, instead of the ridiculous callsign/gridsquare exchange that is occurring now...
My meager contributions are now going to AMSAT-DL, and I've been supporting Project Oscar and AMSAT-NA for 28 years...so I'm not exactly the new kid on the block!!
And it looks like US high school graduates are about the same level as other countries 9th graders...
And don't any one give me any BS about my loyalty...I was a navy fighter pilot in WWII, Korea and Vietnam before I retired in 1967..
73, Dave, WB6LLO dguimon1@san.rr.com Disagree: I learn.... Pulling for P3E...
Hi Dave, WB6LLO
I agree 100% on what you writes and particularly to the following.
If AMSAT-NA persists in it's idiotic FM voice LEO's they are certainly not helping the cause...
The money should be sent to Germany to help with P3E...I've been saying that long prior to the launch of AO-51, at a number of conventions I attended, to no avail...
This is the right place to donate for P3-E
http://www.p3e-satellite.org/index.pl?step=pixelliste
Best 73" de
i8CVS Domenico
***Comments in line -- Jeff -- KE7ACY
----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Guimont" dguimon1@san.rr.com
John, you are so right...
If AMSAT-NA persists in it's idiotic FM voice LEO's they are certainly not helping the cause...
[snip] The skill level with AO51 is to buy an HT, and press a button...I can't imagine that would hold anyone's interest for long...level of difficulty.... equal to a cell phone...
*** If that's what you think, then you obviously haven't tried it!
Hopefully, the rest of the world's AMSAT's will save the operation and interest of amateur ssb/cw BANDWIDTH SATELLITES, to enable at least several minutes of REAL COMMUNICATION, instead of the ridiculous callsign/gridsquare exchange that is occurring now...
**** You do what you gotta do in the amount of time you have to do it. That's the challenge!
My meager contributions are now going to AMSAT-DL, and I've been supporting Project Oscar and AMSAT-NA for 28 years...so I'm not exactly the new kid on the block!!
**** Send all your money to Germany! Why not move there too?
And it looks like US high school graduates are about the same level as other countries 9th graders...
**** What's this got to do with the subject at hand?? You can blame all the liberals for this, but what's it got to do with satellite frequency coordination?
And don't any one give me any BS about my loyalty...I was a navy fighter pilot in WWII, Korea and Vietnam before I retired in 1967..
**** It's attitudes like yours that are killing amateur radio! You want more members in Amsat, give the ham community something to work that doesn't require $10,000 rigs/setups that you click a couple of mouse buttons and then sit back and chat for 4 hours. Where's the challenge in that? You might have to get out of your chair and go move your antenna manually??
**** I've been in ham radio a whopping 4 years! In that time, I've done rocket and balloon tracking, vhf/uhf voice comm, APRS, ARES, packet, HF voice, and lately vhf/hf digital modes. I tried working the ISS a couple of years ago and gave up figuring that I didn't have the equipment ( or budget ) necessary to do it. It took a ham out of Mexico, that wanted to work my grid to get me into satellites. If he had the same attitude as you, it wouldn't have happened. He's got the equipment to work HEO sats, but he's not sitting around moaning and groaning about the the lack of sats (HEO) to work, he's out there getting hams involved in sats! When's the last time you elmered a 14 year old kid that's interested in ham radio like the kid that answered in an earlier reply?? The result of the efforts of that one ham in Mexico??? At least a half dozen hams (of all ages) are now active on the satellites in our area (central Oregon) with at least a couple dozen more exposed to it and interested! If any of them were exposed toyour attitude, that wouldn't have happened.
**** Jeff Moore -- KE7ACY
73, Dave, WB6LLO dguimon1@san.rr.com
Disagree: I learn....
Pulling for P3E...
On Jun 16, 2008, at 3:54 AM, John Hackett wrote:
Can you imagine a future scenario....not too far in the future. 'Linear transponders on 2m & 70Cms?'.... don't be silly, those are the Cubesat bands :-).
While I don't question the utility, or even the necessity of frequency coordination as part of the amateur satellite service, I am honestly confused about some of this. If I recall correctly, 144.3 to 144.5 and 145.8 to 146.00 are allocated to the amateur satellite service. That's at best 400khz of space available to us for all satellite operations. It isn't hard to imagine that a single satellite could actually cover each of the sub bands with a single linear transponder: for instance, AO-40's 2m uplink was 145.840 to 145.990, covering nearly 40% of all spectrum available on 2m to the amateur satellite service. The new Phase 3E satellite has a proposed passband from 145.845 to 145.945 (according to http://www.amsat-dl.org/p3e/tabelle.htm).
And here's the thing: VO-52 already operates on 2m, centered on 145.900. DO-64 is carrying a linear transponder centered on, you guessed it: 145.900. Right now, that's not such a big deal. DO-64 isn't on yet, and they are both in LEO orbits, so the chance of them both being up is relatively small for any particular pass (indeed, running a simulation forward, I found no conflicts between DO-64 and VO-52 in the next 30 days from my home location). Both of these satellites had frequencies coordinated through the IARU.
But if we do succeed in getting a satellite into HEO, it seems to me that we already have a problem: I suspect that it renders the LEOs transponder capability more or less moot. The simple fact is: there isn't that much space available to us on 2m, and it fills up quickly, coordinated or not.
We've also seen that even though the COMPASS-1 and new CUTE-1.7+APDII sats were coordinated, they actually were coordinated to use the same downlink frequency and were launched on the same vehicle. This isn't all that big of an issue, their orbits are drifting apart, and they use primarily narrow band CW telemetry on those frequencies, but still, potential conflicts exist.
I guess my question is: how did these conflicts make it through frequency coordination. Also, how do sider allocations get processed? Everybody seems to want more linear transponders on board (we have seen this request again in response to the Spanish cubesat's request for comments) but if we were to get our HEO with linear transponder, doesn't this spell significant interference problems for VO-52, Do-64, and other satellites which might carry linear transponders into LEO?
I'll thank you all in advance for your thoughtful comments...
Mark
--- On Mon, 16/6/08, Mark Vandewettering kf6kyi@gmail.com wrote:
confused about some of this. If I recall correctly, 144.3 to 144.5 and 145.8 to 146.00 are allocated to the amateur satellite service.
Only 145.8 to 146.0 MHz is currently allocated by IARU to the Amateur Satellite Service. In addition in IARU Region 1 the International Space Station makes use of 145.2 MHz as an Uplink (144.490 MHz in Regions 2 and 3)
In IARU Region 1 - Europe and Africa - 144.4 to 144.5 MHz is heavily used for terrestrial beacons.
So as you can see there is a shortage of frequency spectrum in 2 metres - there is only 200 kHz available.
With that in mind I hope that national AMSAT societies in Region 1 will be explaining the benefits of the IARU Region 1 Cavtat 08 2 metre satellite expansion paper to their IARU recognised National Society since it's the delegates from these societies that will decide the issue.
If nobody takes the time to explain to these Societies what Amateur Satellite operation is about and why an expansion is needed then we should not be suprised if delegates who know nothing at all about the Amateur Satellite Service do not support it.
AMSAT groups in IARU Regions 2 and 3 may wish to give consideration to providing similar papers for their IARU recognised national societies to submit to IARU Region 2/3 conferences.
IARU Region 1 Cavtat 08 papers http://www.iaru-r1.org/Cavtat%20qwopaskl.htm
73 Trevor M5AKA
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participants (7)
-
Andrew Koenig -
Dave Guimont -
i8cvs -
Jeff Moore -
John Hackett -
Mark Vandewettering -
Trevor