Station decisions re. upcoming Geosync bird
I've been casually following the discussion of the upcoming geosynchronous satellite. I currently have a Mode B , J and A analog setup that I've used on Oscar 10 and 13, and on some LEOs. This includes crossed Yagis on 2m and 70cm, and an all-mode radio for those bands. LEOs and flying mailboxes no longer interest me, so in recent years that setup has only been used for occasional terrestrial VHF SSB/CW, plus local repeater activity.
I will need to make some decisions on my general station setup soon. Antenna space is limited, and I want to take the possibility of the geosync bird into consideration. From what I've read and seen on video, the uplinks and downlinks to the satellite will be microwave. The satellite track will make a figure-8 pattern in the sky, but I don't know how large that pattern will be at my location. My 144 and 440 MHz antennas will not be compatible with the new bird. But will the 144/440 radios be useful, perhaps as an IF after the digital gymnastics happen in a converter?
So, my questions:
- Are any "dummy" Keplarian elements available for the geosynch bird's planned (or likely) orbit? That would let me do some "what-iffing." - If the above are not available, could someone tell me the approximate range of azimuth and elevation I might expect from CN87 (Seattle area)? - What is the physical size of the required dishes? - Will the radio for the new bird be self-contained, or require another radio as an IF? If the latter, what frequency band or bands are being contemplated for the IF?
If I've asked things that are too sensitive to discuss right now, let me know and I'll shut up. :-)
73, --Peter, KD7MW
Details on the satellite are still quite sensitive, but details on ground station requirements are much more readily discussed due to the lack of ITAR restrictions there.
One approach to the ground station would be to add a 5G and a 10G transverter to your existing radios, using them for IF radios. Though many 5G and 10G transverters use a 144 MHz IF, some are available with a 432 MHz IF. Getting one of the two transverters with a 432 MHz IF and one with a 144 MHz IF would probably facilitate full-duplex operation, unless you have two 144 MHz IF radios available.
This sort of approach might be preferred by an operator who plans to add those two bands to BOTH terrestrial and satellite operation. But if you were adding these two bands for satellite use only, there is significant opportunity for financial savings. You only need a 5G transmitting converter and a 10G receiving converter. On the receiving end, a modest satellite dish and an inexpensive LNBF designed for for satellite TV will convert the satellite downlink to a signal somewhere near 700 MHz, which is easily within the RF range of many software-defined radios. The ground station team has been hoping that an under-$20 satellite TV PLL-LNBF coupled with an inexpensive RTL-SDR dongle MIGHT suffice for the heart of the 10G receiver. For the uplink, it is possible that a $300-ish HackRF One SDR (which can transmit at up to 6 GHz), coupled with appropriate filtering and a suitable power amplifier might form the heart of an inexpensive 5G transmitter. The ground station team is looking at other, more expensive solutions, as well, and we can't yet promise that the rock-bottom-price solutions will work until they have been well-tested.
In any event, digital modes are going to be the order of the day, so if you are using a pair of all-mode radios as IF's, they will need to support a digital interface to a computer. That's one of the reasons why we are so excited about the possibilities of SDR to get us from RF to digital data and back at affordable prices.
\I hope that helps at least a little bit.
John Toscano, W0JT/5
On Wed, Mar 23, 2016 at 7:44 PM, Peter Klein pklein@threshinc.com wrote:
I've been casually following the discussion of the upcoming geosynchronous satellite. I currently have a Mode B , J and A analog setup that I've used on Oscar 10 and 13, and on some LEOs. This includes crossed Yagis on 2m and 70cm, and an all-mode radio for those bands. LEOs and flying mailboxes no longer interest me, so in recent years that setup has only been used for occasional terrestrial VHF SSB/CW, plus local repeater activity.
I will need to make some decisions on my general station setup soon. Antenna space is limited, and I want to take the possibility of the geosync bird into consideration. From what I've read and seen on video, the uplinks and downlinks to the satellite will be microwave. The satellite track will make a figure-8 pattern in the sky, but I don't know how large that pattern will be at my location. My 144 and 440 MHz antennas will not be compatible with the new bird. But will the 144/440 radios be useful, perhaps as an IF after the digital gymnastics happen in a converter?
So, my questions:
- Are any "dummy" Keplarian elements available for the geosynch bird's
planned (or likely) orbit? That would let me do some "what-iffing."
- If the above are not available, could someone tell me the approximate
range of azimuth and elevation I might expect from CN87 (Seattle area)?
- What is the physical size of the required dishes?
- Will the radio for the new bird be self-contained, or require another
radio as an IF? If the latter, what frequency band or bands are being contemplated for the IF?
If I've asked things that are too sensitive to discuss right now, let me know and I'll shut up. :-)
73, --Peter, KD7MW
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
I need to do a bit more digging, but any preliminary EIRP figures for the uplink?
I've been collecting parts/pieces. So far, I have several European LNB's for 10 GHz receive, two flat panel antennas for 5 and 10 GHz, plus an interesting little 5 GHz amp that a friend sent a link to the other day. 3.5-4W for $35.
Mike
On 3/24/2016 12:17 AM, John Toscano wrote:
Details on the satellite are still quite sensitive, but details on ground station requirements are much more readily discussed due to the lack of ITAR restrictions there.
One approach to the ground station would be to add a 5G and a 10G transverter to your existing radios, using them for IF radios. Though many 5G and 10G transverters use a 144 MHz IF, some are available with a 432 MHz IF. Getting one of the two transverters with a 432 MHz IF and one with a 144 MHz IF would probably facilitate full-duplex operation, unless you have two 144 MHz IF radios available.
This sort of approach might be preferred by an operator who plans to add those two bands to BOTH terrestrial and satellite operation. But if you were adding these two bands for satellite use only, there is significant opportunity for financial savings. You only need a 5G transmitting converter and a 10G receiving converter. On the receiving end, a modest satellite dish and an inexpensive LNBF designed for for satellite TV will convert the satellite downlink to a signal somewhere near 700 MHz, which is easily within the RF range of many software-defined radios. The ground station team has been hoping that an under-$20 satellite TV PLL-LNBF coupled with an inexpensive RTL-SDR dongle MIGHT suffice for the heart of the 10G receiver. For the uplink, it is possible that a $300-ish HackRF One SDR (which can transmit at up to 6 GHz), coupled with appropriate filtering and a suitable power amplifier might form the heart of an inexpensive 5G transmitter. The ground station team is looking at other, more expensive solutions, as well, and we can't yet promise that the rock-bottom-price solutions will work until they have been well-tested.
In any event, digital modes are going to be the order of the day, so if you are using a pair of all-mode radios as IF's, they will need to support a digital interface to a computer. That's one of the reasons why we are so excited about the possibilities of SDR to get us from RF to digital data and back at affordable prices.
\I hope that helps at least a little bit.
John Toscano, W0JT/5
On Wed, Mar 23, 2016 at 7:44 PM, Peter Klein pklein@threshinc.com wrote:
I've been casually following the discussion of the upcoming geosynchronous satellite. I currently have a Mode B , J and A analog setup that I've used on Oscar 10 and 13, and on some LEOs. This includes crossed Yagis on 2m and 70cm, and an all-mode radio for those bands. LEOs and flying mailboxes no longer interest me, so in recent years that setup has only been used for occasional terrestrial VHF SSB/CW, plus local repeater activity.
I will need to make some decisions on my general station setup soon. Antenna space is limited, and I want to take the possibility of the geosync bird into consideration. From what I've read and seen on video, the uplinks and downlinks to the satellite will be microwave. The satellite track will make a figure-8 pattern in the sky, but I don't know how large that pattern will be at my location. My 144 and 440 MHz antennas will not be compatible with the new bird. But will the 144/440 radios be useful, perhaps as an IF after the digital gymnastics happen in a converter?
So, my questions:
- Are any "dummy" Keplarian elements available for the geosynch bird's
planned (or likely) orbit? That would let me do some "what-iffing."
- If the above are not available, could someone tell me the approximate
range of azimuth and elevation I might expect from CN87 (Seattle area)?
- What is the physical size of the required dishes?
- Will the radio for the new bird be self-contained, or require another
radio as an IF? If the latter, what frequency band or bands are being contemplated for the IF?
If I've asked things that are too sensitive to discuss right now, let me know and I'll shut up. :-)
73, --Peter, KD7MW
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Full Duplex on a Geo Bird,,,,?
What is the delay lag time on such a distance?
Joe WB9SBD Sig The Original Rolling Ball Clock Idle Tyme Idle-Tyme.com http://www.idle-tyme.com On 3/23/2016 11:17 PM, John Toscano wrote:
Details on the satellite are still quite sensitive, but details on ground station requirements are much more readily discussed due to the lack of ITAR restrictions there.
One approach to the ground station would be to add a 5G and a 10G transverter to your existing radios, using them for IF radios. Though many 5G and 10G transverters use a 144 MHz IF, some are available with a 432 MHz IF. Getting one of the two transverters with a 432 MHz IF and one with a 144 MHz IF would probably facilitate full-duplex operation, unless you have two 144 MHz IF radios available.
This sort of approach might be preferred by an operator who plans to add those two bands to BOTH terrestrial and satellite operation. But if you were adding these two bands for satellite use only, there is significant opportunity for financial savings. You only need a 5G transmitting converter and a 10G receiving converter. On the receiving end, a modest satellite dish and an inexpensive LNBF designed for for satellite TV will convert the satellite downlink to a signal somewhere near 700 MHz, which is easily within the RF range of many software-defined radios. The ground station team has been hoping that an under-$20 satellite TV PLL-LNBF coupled with an inexpensive RTL-SDR dongle MIGHT suffice for the heart of the 10G receiver. For the uplink, it is possible that a $300-ish HackRF One SDR (which can transmit at up to 6 GHz), coupled with appropriate filtering and a suitable power amplifier might form the heart of an inexpensive 5G transmitter. The ground station team is looking at other, more expensive solutions, as well, and we can't yet promise that the rock-bottom-price solutions will work until they have been well-tested.
In any event, digital modes are going to be the order of the day, so if you are using a pair of all-mode radios as IF's, they will need to support a digital interface to a computer. That's one of the reasons why we are so excited about the possibilities of SDR to get us from RF to digital data and back at affordable prices.
\I hope that helps at least a little bit.
John Toscano, W0JT/5
On Wed, Mar 23, 2016 at 7:44 PM, Peter Klein pklein@threshinc.com wrote:
I've been casually following the discussion of the upcoming geosynchronous satellite. I currently have a Mode B , J and A analog setup that I've used on Oscar 10 and 13, and on some LEOs. This includes crossed Yagis on 2m and 70cm, and an all-mode radio for those bands. LEOs and flying mailboxes no longer interest me, so in recent years that setup has only been used for occasional terrestrial VHF SSB/CW, plus local repeater activity.
I will need to make some decisions on my general station setup soon. Antenna space is limited, and I want to take the possibility of the geosync bird into consideration. From what I've read and seen on video, the uplinks and downlinks to the satellite will be microwave. The satellite track will make a figure-8 pattern in the sky, but I don't know how large that pattern will be at my location. My 144 and 440 MHz antennas will not be compatible with the new bird. But will the 144/440 radios be useful, perhaps as an IF after the digital gymnastics happen in a converter?
So, my questions:
- Are any "dummy" Keplarian elements available for the geosynch bird's
planned (or likely) orbit? That would let me do some "what-iffing."
- If the above are not available, could someone tell me the approximate
range of azimuth and elevation I might expect from CN87 (Seattle area)?
- What is the physical size of the required dishes?
- Will the radio for the new bird be self-contained, or require another
radio as an IF? If the latter, what frequency band or bands are being contemplated for the IF?
If I've asked things that are too sensitive to discuss right now, let me know and I'll shut up. :-)
73, --Peter, KD7MW
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
240-280 ms
73,
Paul, N8HM
On Thu, Mar 24, 2016 at 8:31 AM, Joe nss@mwt.net wrote:
Full Duplex on a Geo Bird,,,,?
What is the delay lag time on such a distance?
Joe WB9SBD Sig The Original Rolling Ball Clock Idle Tyme Idle-Tyme.com http://www.idle-tyme.com
On 3/23/2016 11:17 PM, John Toscano wrote:
Details on the satellite are still quite sensitive, but details on ground station requirements are much more readily discussed due to the lack of ITAR restrictions there.
One approach to the ground station would be to add a 5G and a 10G transverter to your existing radios, using them for IF radios. Though many 5G and 10G transverters use a 144 MHz IF, some are available with a 432 MHz IF. Getting one of the two transverters with a 432 MHz IF and one with a 144 MHz IF would probably facilitate full-duplex operation, unless you have two 144 MHz IF radios available.
This sort of approach might be preferred by an operator who plans to add those two bands to BOTH terrestrial and satellite operation. But if you were adding these two bands for satellite use only, there is significant opportunity for financial savings. You only need a 5G transmitting converter and a 10G receiving converter. On the receiving end, a modest satellite dish and an inexpensive LNBF designed for for satellite TV will convert the satellite downlink to a signal somewhere near 700 MHz, which is easily within the RF range of many software-defined radios. The ground station team has been hoping that an under-$20 satellite TV PLL-LNBF coupled with an inexpensive RTL-SDR dongle MIGHT suffice for the heart of the 10G receiver. For the uplink, it is possible that a $300-ish HackRF One SDR (which can transmit at up to 6 GHz), coupled with appropriate filtering and a suitable power amplifier might form the heart of an inexpensive 5G transmitter. The ground station team is looking at other, more expensive solutions, as well, and we can't yet promise that the rock-bottom-price solutions will work until they have been well-tested.
In any event, digital modes are going to be the order of the day, so if you are using a pair of all-mode radios as IF's, they will need to support a digital interface to a computer. That's one of the reasons why we are so excited about the possibilities of SDR to get us from RF to digital data and back at affordable prices.
\I hope that helps at least a little bit.
John Toscano, W0JT/5
On Wed, Mar 23, 2016 at 7:44 PM, Peter Klein pklein@threshinc.com wrote:
I've been casually following the discussion of the upcoming geosynchronous satellite. I currently have a Mode B , J and A analog setup that I've used on Oscar 10 and 13, and on some LEOs. This includes crossed Yagis on 2m and 70cm, and an all-mode radio for those bands. LEOs and flying mailboxes no longer interest me, so in recent years that setup has only been used for occasional terrestrial VHF SSB/CW, plus local repeater activity.
I will need to make some decisions on my general station setup soon. Antenna space is limited, and I want to take the possibility of the geosync bird into consideration. From what I've read and seen on video, the uplinks and downlinks to the satellite will be microwave. The satellite track will make a figure-8 pattern in the sky, but I don't know how large that pattern will be at my location. My 144 and 440 MHz antennas will not be compatible with the new bird. But will the 144/440 radios be useful, perhaps as an IF after the digital gymnastics happen in a converter?
So, my questions:
- Are any "dummy" Keplarian elements available for the geosynch bird's
planned (or likely) orbit? That would let me do some "what-iffing."
- If the above are not available, could someone tell me the approximate
range of azimuth and elevation I might expect from CN87 (Seattle area)?
- What is the physical size of the required dishes?
- Will the radio for the new bird be self-contained, or require another
radio as an IF? If the latter, what frequency band or bands are being contemplated for the IF?
If I've asked things that are too sensitive to discuss right now, let me know and I'll shut up. :-)
73, --Peter, KD7MW
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
That isn't too bad. It would be a killer when running CW and monitoring like a sidetone tho! he he he.
Joe WB9SBD Sig The Original Rolling Ball Clock Idle Tyme Idle-Tyme.com http://www.idle-tyme.com On 3/24/2016 7:35 AM, Paul Stoetzer wrote:
240-280 ms
73,
Paul, N8HM
On Thu, Mar 24, 2016 at 8:31 AM, Joe nss@mwt.net wrote:
Full Duplex on a Geo Bird,,,,?
What is the delay lag time on such a distance?
Joe WB9SBD Sig The Original Rolling Ball Clock Idle Tyme Idle-Tyme.com http://www.idle-tyme.com
On 3/23/2016 11:17 PM, John Toscano wrote:
Details on the satellite are still quite sensitive, but details on ground station requirements are much more readily discussed due to the lack of ITAR restrictions there.
One approach to the ground station would be to add a 5G and a 10G transverter to your existing radios, using them for IF radios. Though many 5G and 10G transverters use a 144 MHz IF, some are available with a 432 MHz IF. Getting one of the two transverters with a 432 MHz IF and one with a 144 MHz IF would probably facilitate full-duplex operation, unless you have two 144 MHz IF radios available.
This sort of approach might be preferred by an operator who plans to add those two bands to BOTH terrestrial and satellite operation. But if you were adding these two bands for satellite use only, there is significant opportunity for financial savings. You only need a 5G transmitting converter and a 10G receiving converter. On the receiving end, a modest satellite dish and an inexpensive LNBF designed for for satellite TV will convert the satellite downlink to a signal somewhere near 700 MHz, which is easily within the RF range of many software-defined radios. The ground station team has been hoping that an under-$20 satellite TV PLL-LNBF coupled with an inexpensive RTL-SDR dongle MIGHT suffice for the heart of the 10G receiver. For the uplink, it is possible that a $300-ish HackRF One SDR (which can transmit at up to 6 GHz), coupled with appropriate filtering and a suitable power amplifier might form the heart of an inexpensive 5G transmitter. The ground station team is looking at other, more expensive solutions, as well, and we can't yet promise that the rock-bottom-price solutions will work until they have been well-tested.
In any event, digital modes are going to be the order of the day, so if you are using a pair of all-mode radios as IF's, they will need to support a digital interface to a computer. That's one of the reasons why we are so excited about the possibilities of SDR to get us from RF to digital data and back at affordable prices.
\I hope that helps at least a little bit.
John Toscano, W0JT/5
On Wed, Mar 23, 2016 at 7:44 PM, Peter Klein pklein@threshinc.com wrote:
I've been casually following the discussion of the upcoming geosynchronous satellite. I currently have a Mode B , J and A analog setup that I've used on Oscar 10 and 13, and on some LEOs. This includes crossed Yagis on 2m and 70cm, and an all-mode radio for those bands. LEOs and flying mailboxes no longer interest me, so in recent years that setup has only been used for occasional terrestrial VHF SSB/CW, plus local repeater activity.
I will need to make some decisions on my general station setup soon. Antenna space is limited, and I want to take the possibility of the geosync bird into consideration. From what I've read and seen on video, the uplinks and downlinks to the satellite will be microwave. The satellite track will make a figure-8 pattern in the sky, but I don't know how large that pattern will be at my location. My 144 and 440 MHz antennas will not be compatible with the new bird. But will the 144/440 radios be useful, perhaps as an IF after the digital gymnastics happen in a converter?
So, my questions:
- Are any "dummy" Keplarian elements available for the geosynch bird's
planned (or likely) orbit? That would let me do some "what-iffing."
- If the above are not available, could someone tell me the approximate
range of azimuth and elevation I might expect from CN87 (Seattle area)?
- What is the physical size of the required dishes?
- Will the radio for the new bird be self-contained, or require another
radio as an IF? If the latter, what frequency band or bands are being contemplated for the IF?
If I've asked things that are too sensitive to discuss right now, let me know and I'll shut up. :-)
73, --Peter, KD7MW
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
I'm working on a CW keyer that uses quantum mechanics to send the code before you actually send it, thereby negating the propagation delay. :-)
On Thu, Mar 24, 2016 at 8:46 AM, Joe nss@mwt.net wrote:
That isn't too bad. It would be a killer when running CW and monitoring like a sidetone tho! he he he.
Joe WB9SBD Sig The Original Rolling Ball Clock Idle Tyme Idle-Tyme.com http://www.idle-tyme.com On 3/24/2016 7:35 AM, Paul Stoetzer wrote:
240-280 ms
73,
Paul, N8HM
On Thu, Mar 24, 2016 at 8:31 AM, Joe nss@mwt.net wrote:
Full Duplex on a Geo Bird,,,,?
What is the delay lag time on such a distance?
Joe WB9SBD Sig The Original Rolling Ball Clock Idle Tyme Idle-Tyme.com http://www.idle-tyme.com
On 3/23/2016 11:17 PM, John Toscano wrote:
Details on the satellite are still quite sensitive, but details on ground station requirements are much more readily discussed due to the lack of ITAR restrictions there.
One approach to the ground station would be to add a 5G and a 10G transverter to your existing radios, using them for IF radios. Though many 5G and 10G transverters use a 144 MHz IF, some are available with a 432 MHz IF. Getting one of the two transverters with a 432 MHz IF and one with a 144 MHz IF would probably facilitate full-duplex operation, unless you have two 144 MHz IF radios available.
This sort of approach might be preferred by an operator who plans to add those two bands to BOTH terrestrial and satellite operation. But if you were adding these two bands for satellite use only, there is significant opportunity for financial savings. You only need a 5G transmitting converter and a 10G receiving converter. On the receiving end, a modest satellite dish and an inexpensive LNBF designed for for satellite TV will convert the satellite downlink to a signal somewhere near 700 MHz, which is easily within the RF range of many software-defined radios. The ground station team has been hoping that an under-$20 satellite TV PLL-LNBF coupled with an inexpensive RTL-SDR dongle MIGHT suffice for the heart of the 10G receiver. For the uplink, it is possible that a $300-ish HackRF One SDR (which can transmit at up to 6 GHz), coupled with appropriate filtering and a suitable power amplifier might form the heart of an inexpensive 5G transmitter. The ground station team is looking at other, more expensive solutions, as well, and we can't yet promise that the rock-bottom-price solutions will work until they have been well-tested.
In any event, digital modes are going to be the order of the day, so if you are using a pair of all-mode radios as IF's, they will need to support a digital interface to a computer. That's one of the reasons why we are so excited about the possibilities of SDR to get us from RF to digital data and back at affordable prices.
\I hope that helps at least a little bit.
John Toscano, W0JT/5
On Wed, Mar 23, 2016 at 7:44 PM, Peter Klein pklein@threshinc.com wrote:
I've been casually following the discussion of the upcoming
geosynchronous satellite. I currently have a Mode B , J and A analog setup that I've used on Oscar 10 and 13, and on some LEOs. This includes crossed Yagis on 2m and 70cm, and an all-mode radio for those bands. LEOs and flying mailboxes no longer interest me, so in recent years that setup has only been used for occasional terrestrial VHF SSB/CW, plus local repeater activity.
I will need to make some decisions on my general station setup soon. Antenna space is limited, and I want to take the possibility of the geosync bird into consideration. From what I've read and seen on video, the uplinks and downlinks to the satellite will be microwave. The satellite track will make a figure-8 pattern in the sky, but I don't know how large that pattern will be at my location. My 144 and 440 MHz antennas will not be compatible with the new bird. But will the 144/440 radios be useful, perhaps as an IF after the digital gymnastics happen in a converter?
So, my questions:
- Are any "dummy" Keplarian elements available for the geosynch bird's
planned (or likely) orbit? That would let me do some "what-iffing."
- If the above are not available, could someone tell me the approximate
range of azimuth and elevation I might expect from CN87 (Seattle area)?
- What is the physical size of the required dishes?
- Will the radio for the new bird be self-contained, or require another
radio as an IF? If the latter, what frequency band or bands are being contemplated for the IF?
If I've asked things that are too sensitive to discuss right now, let me know and I'll shut up. :-)
73, --Peter, KD7MW
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Remember that AO-10, AO-13, and AO-40 at apogee were all at about geosynchronous altitude or higher, so hams have experience operating full duplex with such a delay.
73,
Paul, N8HM
On Thu, Mar 24, 2016 at 8:31 AM, Joe nss@mwt.net wrote:
Full Duplex on a Geo Bird,,,,?
What is the delay lag time on such a distance?
Joe WB9SBD Sig The Original Rolling Ball Clock Idle Tyme Idle-Tyme.com http://www.idle-tyme.com
On 3/23/2016 11:17 PM, John Toscano wrote:
Details on the satellite are still quite sensitive, but details on ground station requirements are much more readily discussed due to the lack of ITAR restrictions there.
One approach to the ground station would be to add a 5G and a 10G transverter to your existing radios, using them for IF radios. Though many 5G and 10G transverters use a 144 MHz IF, some are available with a 432 MHz IF. Getting one of the two transverters with a 432 MHz IF and one with a 144 MHz IF would probably facilitate full-duplex operation, unless you have two 144 MHz IF radios available.
This sort of approach might be preferred by an operator who plans to add those two bands to BOTH terrestrial and satellite operation. But if you were adding these two bands for satellite use only, there is significant opportunity for financial savings. You only need a 5G transmitting converter and a 10G receiving converter. On the receiving end, a modest satellite dish and an inexpensive LNBF designed for for satellite TV will convert the satellite downlink to a signal somewhere near 700 MHz, which is easily within the RF range of many software-defined radios. The ground station team has been hoping that an under-$20 satellite TV PLL-LNBF coupled with an inexpensive RTL-SDR dongle MIGHT suffice for the heart of the 10G receiver. For the uplink, it is possible that a $300-ish HackRF One SDR (which can transmit at up to 6 GHz), coupled with appropriate filtering and a suitable power amplifier might form the heart of an inexpensive 5G transmitter. The ground station team is looking at other, more expensive solutions, as well, and we can't yet promise that the rock-bottom-price solutions will work until they have been well-tested.
In any event, digital modes are going to be the order of the day, so if you are using a pair of all-mode radios as IF's, they will need to support a digital interface to a computer. That's one of the reasons why we are so excited about the possibilities of SDR to get us from RF to digital data and back at affordable prices.
\I hope that helps at least a little bit.
John Toscano, W0JT/5
On Wed, Mar 23, 2016 at 7:44 PM, Peter Klein pklein@threshinc.com wrote:
I've been casually following the discussion of the upcoming geosynchronous satellite. I currently have a Mode B , J and A analog setup that I've used on Oscar 10 and 13, and on some LEOs. This includes crossed Yagis on 2m and 70cm, and an all-mode radio for those bands. LEOs and flying mailboxes no longer interest me, so in recent years that setup has only been used for occasional terrestrial VHF SSB/CW, plus local repeater activity.
I will need to make some decisions on my general station setup soon. Antenna space is limited, and I want to take the possibility of the geosync bird into consideration. From what I've read and seen on video, the uplinks and downlinks to the satellite will be microwave. The satellite track will make a figure-8 pattern in the sky, but I don't know how large that pattern will be at my location. My 144 and 440 MHz antennas will not be compatible with the new bird. But will the 144/440 radios be useful, perhaps as an IF after the digital gymnastics happen in a converter?
So, my questions:
- Are any "dummy" Keplarian elements available for the geosynch bird's
planned (or likely) orbit? That would let me do some "what-iffing."
- If the above are not available, could someone tell me the approximate
range of azimuth and elevation I might expect from CN87 (Seattle area)?
- What is the physical size of the required dishes?
- Will the radio for the new bird be self-contained, or require another
radio as an IF? If the latter, what frequency band or bands are being contemplated for the IF?
If I've asked things that are too sensitive to discuss right now, let me know and I'll shut up. :-)
73, --Peter, KD7MW
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sure. Remember that AO-40 at apogee was WAY beyond the Clark belt. Took a little bit of getting used to, but was not a real problem.
Jim - K6CCC
---------------------------------------- From: "Joe" nss@mwt.net Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2016 5:32 AM To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Station decisions re. upcoming Geosync bird Full Duplex on a Geo Bird,,,,?
What is the delay lag time on such a distance?
Joe WB9SBD Sig The Original Rolling Ball Clock Idle Tyme Idle-Tyme.com http://www.idle-tyme.com On 3/23/2016 11:17 PM, John Toscano wrote:
Details on the satellite are still quite sensitive, but details on
ground
station requirements are much more readily discussed due to the lack of ITAR restrictions there.
One approach to the ground station would be to add a 5G and a 10G transverter to your existing radios, using them for IF radios. Though
many
5G and 10G transverters use a 144 MHz IF, some are available with a 432
MHz
IF. Getting one of the two transverters with a 432 MHz IF and one with a 144 MHz IF would probably facilitate full-duplex operation, unless you
have
two 144 MHz IF radios available.
This sort of approach might be preferred by an operator who plans to add those two bands to BOTH terrestrial and satellite operation. But if you were adding these two bands for satellite use only, there is significant opportunity for financial savings. You only need a 5G transmitting converter and a 10G receiving converter. On the receiving end, a modest satellite dish and an inexpensive LNBF designed for for satellite TV
will
convert the satellite downlink to a signal somewhere near 700 MHz, which
is
easily within the RF range of many software-defined radios. The ground station team has been hoping that an under-$20 satellite TV PLL-LNBF coupled with an inexpensive RTL-SDR dongle MIGHT suffice for the heart
of
the 10G receiver. For the uplink, it is possible that a $300-ish HackRF
One
SDR (which can transmit at up to 6 GHz), coupled with appropriate
filtering
and a suitable power amplifier might form the heart of an inexpensive 5G transmitter. The ground station team is looking at other, more expensive solutions, as well, and we can't yet promise that the rock-bottom-price solutions will work until they have been well-tested.
In any event, digital modes are going to be the order of the day, so if
you
are using a pair of all-mode radios as IF's, they will need to support a digital interface to a computer. That's one of the reasons why we are so excited about the possibilities of SDR to get us from RF to digital data and back at affordable prices.
\I hope that helps at least a little bit.
John Toscano, W0JT/5
On Wed, Mar 23, 2016 at 7:44 PM, Peter Klein pklein@threshinc.com
wrote:
I've been casually following the discussion of the upcoming
geosynchronous
satellite. I currently have a Mode B , J and A analog setup that I've
used
on Oscar 10 and 13, and on some LEOs. This includes crossed Yagis on 2m
and
70cm, and an all-mode radio for those bands. LEOs and flying mailboxes
no
longer interest me, so in recent years that setup has only been used
for
occasional terrestrial VHF SSB/CW, plus local repeater activity.
I will need to make some decisions on my general station setup soon. Antenna space is limited, and I want to take the possibility of the
geosync
bird into consideration. From what I've read and seen on video, the uplinks and downlinks to the satellite will be microwave. The satellite track will make a figure-8 pattern in the sky, but I don't know how
large
that pattern will be at my location. My 144 and 440 MHz antennas will
not
be compatible with the new bird. But will the 144/440 radios be useful, perhaps as an IF after the digital gymnastics happen in a converter?
So, my questions:
- Are any "dummy" Keplarian elements available for the geosynch bird's
planned (or likely) orbit? That would let me do some "what-iffing."
- If the above are not available, could someone tell me the approximate
range of azimuth and elevation I might expect from CN87 (Seattle area)?
- What is the physical size of the required dishes?
- Will the radio for the new bird be self-contained, or require another
radio as an IF? If the latter, what frequency band or bands are being contemplated for the IF?
If I've asked things that are too sensitive to discuss right now, let
me
know and I'll shut up. :-)
73, --Peter, KD7MW
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
Opinions
expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views
of
AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
program!
Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
Opinions expressed
are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
AMSAT-NA.
Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
program!
Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
_______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
participants (7)
-
Goody K3NG -
Jim Walls -
Joe -
John Toscano -
Mike Seguin -
Paul Stoetzer -
Peter Klein