Well, every bit of information I have read here and elsewhere would lead one to the conclusion that the satellite name is 'ARISSat-1'. Therefore it seems logical that it would be named so in the information provided by the people that provide the keps.

Of course it doesn't 'need to change' as you put it. For all I care they can call it 'Bob'.

73, K7TRK

-----Original Message----- From: Nigel A. Gunn, W8IFF/G8IFF [mailto:nigel@ngunn.net] Sent: Friday, August 05, 2011 1:17 PM To: Ted Cc: APBIDDLE@mailaps.org; 'AMSAT-BB'; 'SAREX-BB' Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Re: ARRISat-1 Keps now available from Celestrak

Why does it need to change.

On 08/05/2011 07:47 PM, Ted wrote:

Just updated my HRD Sat program and it now lists keps for 'Radioscaf-B'. (no ARRISat-1' listing)

Will that eventually change?

Ted K7TRK

On 5 Aug 2011 at 13:49, Greg D. wrote:

Date sent: Fri, 05 Aug 2011 13:49:53 -0700 From: "Greg D." ko6th_greg@hotmail.com Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: [sarex] Re: Re: ARRISat-1 Keps now available from Celestrak To: amsat-bb@amsat.org, sarex@amsat.org

It doesn't.

But it speaks to what many are feeling - well, speaking for myself at least - that it would be a really good idea, politically, that when ARISSat-1 gets an Oscar number, it should have an AO-prefix, not an RS-prefix.

There, it's been said.

Greg KO6TH

As ARISS as ISS are part of an international program i suggest "ARISSKAF-1"

"-"

Luc Leblanc VE2DWE Skype VE2DWE www.qsl.net/ve2dwe DSTAR urcall VE2DWE WAC BASIC CW PHONE SATELLITE

'use the real world name that the builders and launch agencies use.'

Then how do you decide who gets the right to name? The builder? Or the 'launcher'?

Yaesu builds a radio in Japan and sells it in the USA. It's still called a Yaesu. The name does not change because it came here on a Maersk cargo ship. It does not become a 'Maersk' does it?

Americans built it. They should have the naming rights.

Just because some Russians threw it off their space ship does not give them the right to name it (it just gives them the right to break it!)

K7TRK -----Original Message----- From: amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org [mailto:amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org] On Behalf Of Nigel A. Gunn, W8IFF/G8IFF Sent: Friday, August 05, 2011 2:15 PM To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Cc: sarex@amsat.org Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: [sarex] Re: Re: ARRISat-1 Keps now available from Celestrak

As many have said before. Perhaps we should get away from the American system of allocating Oscar numbers and use the real world name that the builders and launch agencies use.

On 08/05/2011 08:49 PM, Greg D. wrote:

It doesn't.

But it speaks to what many are feeling - well, speaking for myself at

least - that it would be a really good idea, politically, that when ARISSat-1 gets an Oscar number, it should have an AO-prefix, not an RS-prefix.

There, it's been said.

Greg KO6TH

_______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb

...

,,,it now lists keps for 'Radioscaf-B'. (no ARRISat-1' listing). Will that eventually change?

I chuckle.

We in the USA have virtually abandoned manned space. We have no manned space flight vehicles because all we do is squabble with the attention span of 2 year olds in our politics and long term outlooks. All our politicians do is worry about their re-election in the next 2 years. They cannot face the really big issues that need to be solved without jeopardizing their re-election by the me-first, screw-them electorate. The voters only have the attention span from one radio talk show to the next.

So since the Russians are now the only manned space program that can provide the ride, I guess they get to call it whatever they want. Our guys worked VERY HARD to build it and deliver it against unbelieveable pressures and bureaucratic issues, but the only way to get it to ISS was to give it to the Russians.

Sigh... Bob, WB4APR

Trevor...there is not a chance that is going to happen. The US is on the verge of a revolution in space affairs (to mimic Admiral Bill Owens) and we are about to leave a technowelfare program and go into something truly free enterprise. Watch

Robert G. Oler WB5MZO life member AMSAT ARRL NARS

Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2011 23:04:09 +0100 From: m5aka@yahoo.co.uk To: amsat-bb@amsat.org; bruninga@usna.edu Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: A rose is a rose... is a rose

Bob, Politicians are the same the world over.

I note that some of your Politicians seem paranoid about the USA's biggest trading partner, Beijing. I don't mind betting that in a few years time your Politicians will be falling over themselves to vote billions of tax dollars to the Space program to prevent the US falling into 3rd place behind the Russian Federation and Beijing.

73 Trevor M5AKA

--- On Fri, 5/8/11, Bob Bruninga bruninga@usna.edu wrote:

...

...

...

,,,it now lists keps for 'Radioscaf-B'. (no ARRISat-1' listing). Will that eventually change?

I chuckle.

We in the USA have virtually abandoned manned space. We have no manned space flight vehicles because all we do is squabble with the attention span of 2 year olds in our politics and long term outlooks. All our politicians do is worry about their re-election in the next 2 years. They cannot face the really big issues that need to be solved without jeopardizing their re-election by the me-first, screw-them electorate. The voters only have the attention span from one radio talk show to the next.

So since the Russians are now the only manned space program that can provide the ride, I guess they get to call it whatever they want. Our guys worked VERY HARD to build it and deliver it against unbelieveable pressures and bureaucratic issues, but the only way to get it to ISS was to give it to the Russians.

Sigh... Bob, WB4APR

---

Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb

Greg. well all I can say is that anyone who says that the US has "virtually abandoned" crewed spaceflight is not up on current events. What we are doing is transitioning from a program of the military industrial complex to one which centers on private enterprise...and that will open space access for a lot of things. And that will include amateur radio payloads. In my view the association between amateur radio and human spaceflight has hurt amateur radio more then it has helped.

Go read "The Revolution in Military Affairs"...and you will get the drift Robert G. Oler WB5MZO Life member AMSAT ARRL NARS

Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2011 10:08:01 -0500 From: w5ggw@cox.net To: orbitjet@hotmail.com CC: m5aka@yahoo.co.uk; amsat-bb@amsat.org; bruninga@usna.edu Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Re: A rose is a rose... is a rose

When these kinds of comments come up, I often wonder how many people actually understand how the US economy works. I spend some time to put together some view points of how the FED is affecting what's happening and how the "basis of the FED" as a mechanism is not really working to manage the complexities of our economy. There are things all over youtube.com which are records of senate and congressional committee sessions, historical videos, documentaries etc. If you are not really sure how the FED works and what all the "troubles" of the economy in the U.S. and the world (because many countries chose to tie themselves to our currency system), visible my Google+ post that I've put up and look around at some of the videos I've linked to.

https://plus.google.com/110612293771822302429/posts/eG6QC13kgv8

Gregg Wonderly W5GGW

On 8/5/2011 5:39 PM, R Oler wrote:

...

Trevor...there is not a chance that is going to happen. The US is on the verge of a revolution in space affairs (to mimic Admiral Bill Owens) and we are about to leave a technowelfare program and go into something truly free enterprise. Watch

Robert G. Oler WB5MZO life member AMSAT ARRL NARS

...

Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2011 23:04:09 +0100 From: m5aka@yahoo.co.uk To: amsat-bb@amsat.org; bruninga@usna.edu Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: A rose is a rose... is a rose

Bob, Politicians are the same the world over.

I note that some of your Politicians seem paranoid about the USA's biggest trading partner, Beijing. I don't mind betting that in a few years time your Politicians will be falling over themselves to vote billions of tax dollars to the Space program to prevent the US falling into 3rd place behind the Russian Federation and Beijing.

...

73 Trevor M5AKA

--- On Fri, 5/8/11, Bob Bruningabruninga@usna.edu wrote:

...

...

...

,,,it now lists keps for 'Radioscaf-B'. (no ARRISat-1' listing). Will that eventually change?

I chuckle.

We in the USA have virtually abandoned manned space. We have no manned space flight vehicles because all we do is squabble with the attention span of 2 year olds in our politics and long term outlooks. All our politicians do is worry about their re-election in the next 2 years. They cannot face the really big issues that need to be solved without jeopardizing their re-election by the me-first, screw-them electorate. The voters only have the attention span from one radio talk show to the next.

So since the Russians are now the only manned space program that can provide the ride, I guess they get to call it whatever they want. Our guys worked VERY HARD to build it and deliver it against unbelieveable pressures and bureaucratic issues, but the only way to get it to ISS was to give it to the Russians.

Sigh... Bob, WB4APR

---

Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb

---

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I agree, that there is change that can happen. Here's my view on what I really think are the issues.

I was specifically referring to the notion that "funding" is the "problem". Funding will be the "issue" that allows change to actually happen, and at what speed it can happen. Money availability is largely controlled by the "Fed" in terms of providing an interest rate that will allow private enterprise to "invest" by getting loans from the banks that the Fed serves.

Sure, there is also a fixed amount of "money" available from private parties. But, if no one who "has the money" wants to fund "space flight", then it won't ever happen privately. I.e. why hasn't the privetization already happened? I think it's because it doesn't "make money". There's nothing "known" to generate value out of space "flight". Space based research, perhaps, but not "space flight". Transportation to the ISS is an occasional thing... Not a giant opportunity for continued income and business growth (limited occupancy etc.).

There has to be some other interests generated. Nasa's exploratory program can provide the data and some "Wow moments" that raise the interest levels of those with money. But, if there is no "investment" opportunity, then a mindset change has to happen that causes people to believe that it needs to happen and they should "pay" for it rather than "invest" in it.

Because of the development of "the space program" by the government of the U.S., that's largely where it has been funded from, and the Fed, has "printed money" for many parts of that development.

If there is only a "small" amount of private funding available, it may not go to the 'right' places. So, in order for "all possible opportunities to be explored", there has to exist enough interests with enough money to make it happen. Federally funded exploration programs are one way to make sure specific tasks are executed. But, because people believe that "money" is and should be of a "fixed supply", we'll have countless arguments about "budget".

If we did something with a space program over the course of 10 years, instead of doing it in 1 year, for example, people would see less effect of the "money spent" over 10 years. But if all of the economic impact occured in just 1 year, it could have very recognizable impact, as the wars have in the past. The Fed has moved the economy along at slow speeds because its easier to keep an eye on it.

The amount of "cash" available, is arbitrary, because the Fed decides when to print it based on their economic outlook and then decided interest rates. They are printing like mad right now because of the recession. This is the policy and procedures of how the Fed works as an independent organization (no one who you voted for can make them do anything).

As we all know, a huge mount of "value" was "injected" into our economy by massive, risky, unmanaged credit. We didn't have the money in circulation to support that value, and suddenly it was realized that there was a problem. Next was the decision about who loses? Is it the person making the purchase, or the person loaning the money, or the person who sold the risky item? It has been decided that no one loses, and we'll just adjust the economy by printing money so everyone can "do" what needs to be done to recover. Go watch the Fed vs the congress videos on youtube.com if you didn't get to see how much grilling the Fed got for "fixing the economy" by bailing out the "can't fail".

Let's hope everyone is acting responsibly this time, because printing more money only adds "money" to support the "value", if everyone agrees to "keep" the value of "money" the same in the economy. Otherwise, we get "inflation" that will devalue money again, and that won't help. Hyper-inflation is being predicted.

You can hope for privatization to work, but there are no guarantees. With a baseless "money", we can, actually just print like mad, all we want to employ as many people as possible to do as much "work" as we can find to do. Since everyone is working, and we are getting useful results, does it seem wrong to "print money" to employ people to work? We did this for the wars...

Once we are done with a "work" program, how do all those people continue to live in the economy? What is happening with the Space Shuttle program? An answer might be that we just keep printing money and let them "live". But that's what everyone calls socialism and historically, it hasn't worked. Food stamps, unemployment, and other assistance programs are argued to create socialistic behaviors, but how do we decide the moment that a person or a project deserves to fail? Do we have to judge it as "bad", or do we need to declare it "okay to fail"?

Practically, we can argue and discuss about gold or silver backed currency till we are blue in the face. In a resource backed, currency based economy, if new people are to be employed, someone else needs to take a pay cut, spend some money, or die so that the new person can be paid some money. If more "value" is created in the economy with new products, then the price of other items have to decline for that other value to be accessible for purchase. If you have to plan your business to continuously reduce prices, how far can you go before you can't? What does that do to initial prices and who can purchase? The Fed controls available money, hoping to manage this appropriately so that printing only should happen when new economic value exists.

Getting more of the "resource" such as mining gold/silver, would be like "printing" money because once you add it to the economy, there will be more available and the worth of the existing will likely decline unless there is additional "value" added to the economy to make the "gold" harder to get. This is why some people believe the Fed is okay as long as it's managed appropriately. It is cheaper to print money then it is to "mine" gold, and gold and silver are useful resources, where as "paper" is manufactured from renewable resources.

With the Fed in operation, the "annual cost of living increase" in your pay check was about equalizing your "money" with the "Fed" printing rate so that you didn't have to take an effective cut in pay because of the inflation being created.

The Fed prints enough new money to take "growth" into account, based on what it can track. The problem was that too much "money" was being loaned out and the "banks" had stacked their own debt at more than 10-to-1 against cash on hand with loans because of lack of regulation. Thus the economy was larger than the Fed could "perceive" and we didn't have enough "cash" to cover such risky behavior. And yes, the risky behavior should not of been happening either.

It's important to learn how it all works so that we understand that privetization is possible, but there are countless circumstances that don't always make it economically possible. Money, today, is a vehicle that can be used for a lot of things, and the misuse of it, as we've seen, can destroy the economy or damage it severely.

The X-Prize, for example had very view participants because there wasn't any "real" prize except recognition, and ultimately the "knowledge" gained from participation.

Where are all the interests at really? I think there should be lots of interest, but I sure don't see anything that would suggest that there would be 10 space flight companies making regular trips into space by 2020.

This is way off topic for this group...

Gregg Wonderly W5GGW

On 8/9/2011 11:08 AM, R Oler wrote:

Greg. well all I can say is that anyone who says that the US has "virtually abandoned" crewed spaceflight is not up on current events. What we are doing is transitioning from a program of the military industrial complex to one which centers on private enterprise...and that will open space access for a lot of things. And that will include amateur radio payloads. In my view the association between amateur radio and human spaceflight has hurt amateur radio more then it has helped.

Go read "The Revolution in Military Affairs"...and you will get the drift Robert G. Oler WB5MZO Life member AMSAT ARRL NARS

...

Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2011 10:08:01 -0500 From: w5ggw@cox.net To: orbitjet@hotmail.com CC: m5aka@yahoo.co.uk; amsat-bb@amsat.org; bruninga@usna.edu Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Re: A rose is a rose... is a rose

When these kinds of comments come up, I often wonder how many people actually understand how the US economy works. I spend some time to put together some view points of how the FED is affecting what's happening and how the "basis of the FED" as a mechanism is not really working to manage the complexities of our economy. There are things all over youtube.com which are records of senate and congressional committee sessions, historical videos, documentaries etc. If you are not really sure how the FED works and what all the "troubles" of the economy in the U.S. and the world (because many countries chose to tie themselves to our currency system), visible my Google+ post that I've put up and look around at some of the videos I've linked to.

https://plus.google.com/110612293771822302429/posts/eG6QC13kgv8

Gregg Wonderly W5GGW

On 8/5/2011 5:39 PM, R Oler wrote:

...

Trevor...there is not a chance that is going to happen. The US is on the

verge of a revolution in space affairs (to mimic Admiral Bill Owens) and we are about to leave a technowelfare program and go into something truly free enterprise. Watch

...

...

Robert G. Oler WB5MZO life member AMSAT ARRL NARS

...

Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2011 23:04:09 +0100 From: m5aka@yahoo.co.uk To: amsat-bb@amsat.org; bruninga@usna.edu Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: A rose is a rose... is a rose

Bob, Politicians are the same the world over.

I note that some of your Politicians seem paranoid about the USA's biggest

trading partner, Beijing. I don't mind betting that in a few years time your Politicians will be falling over themselves to vote billions of tax dollars to the Space program to prevent the US falling into 3rd place behind the Russian Federation and Beijing.

...

...

...

73 Trevor M5AKA

--- On Fri, 5/8/11, Bob Bruningabruninga@usna.edu wrote:

...

...

> ,,,it now lists keps for 'Radioscaf-B'. (no > ARRISat-1' listing). Will that eventually change?

I chuckle.

We in the USA have virtually abandoned manned space. We have no manned space flight vehicles because all we do is squabble with the attention span of 2 year olds in our politics and long term outlooks. All our politicians do is worry about their re-election in the next 2 years. They cannot face the really big issues that need to be solved without jeopardizing their re-election by the me-first, screw-them electorate. The voters only have the attention span from one radio talk show to the next.

So since the Russians are now the only manned space program that can provide the ride, I guess they get to call it whatever they want. Our guys worked VERY HARD to build it and deliver it against unbelieveable pressures and bureaucratic issues, but the only way to get it to ISS was to give it to the Russians.

Sigh... Bob, WB4APR

---

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---

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Yes Phil, you are correct. Communications and earth observation in orbit are great examples of space applications that have succeeded. But, they are also things that we've already done. I admit that there is probably more to explore and learn here, near to us, but I was really thinking about more distant space exploration. Our planet is pretty boring from the perspective that we are here, and get get around on it to see what's on the surface. Subsurface exploration in the Ocean (I'd like to know a lot more about those now underwater cities that appear to have been buried by catastrophic floods from ICE age ice dams breaking), and other deep earth observations would be a good thing to learn more about what is going on without planet and how we are affecting.

Higher orbit or distant communications systems are exciting. A repeater or two on the moon for example would be something that we might try and be ready to provide should a moon mission come up on the horizon.

Gregg Wonderly

On 8/13/2011 4:46 PM, Phil Karn wrote:

On 8/9/11 4:47 PM, Gregg Wonderly wrote:

...

But, if no one who "has the money" wants to fund "space flight", then it won't ever happen privately. I.e. why hasn't the privetization already happened? I think it's because it doesn't "make money". There's nothing "known" to generate value out of space "flight".

Actually, there's one space application that has proved quite commercially viable: communications. Commercial earth resources satellites are a distant second. I can't think of anything else.

Exploration for its own sake is never going to be commercially viable. There has to be some short-term economic payoff. There's a long history of those who have become rich in some other industry funding an earth expedition out of personal interest, but the cost of space flight is still far too high for this to extend to space. It means that the funding of space exploration will have to remain the province of governments for the time being. There's just no payoff for commercial investment, at least not yet.

-Phil

Ted,

No, the first name assigned usually sticks. A few times they have initially assigned a name to the wrong object. Even in that case, they just swap the names around. Remember, it has a Russian callsign, so that is as logical a choice as another. Some programs such as SATPC32 allow you to change the designation to something else, such as ARRISat-1 or Ethel, if it suits you. ;)

Alan WA4SCA

-----Original Message----- From: Ted [mailto:k7trkradio@charter.net] Sent: Friday, August 05, 2011 2:47 PM To: APBIDDLE@mailaps.org; 'AMSAT-BB'; 'SAREX-BB' Subject: RE: [amsat-bb] ARRISat-1 Keps now available from Celestrak

Just updated my HRD Sat program and it now lists keps for 'Radioscaf-B'. (no ARRISat-1' listing)

Will that eventually change?

Ted K7TRK

-----Original Message----- From: amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org [mailto:amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org] On Behalf Of Alan P. Biddle Sent: Friday, August 05, 2011 11:47 AM To: AMSAT-BB; SAREX-BB Subject: [amsat-bb] ARRISat-1 Keps now available from Celestrak

Just checked the latest AMATEUR.TXT download from Celestrak, used by many tracking programs. ARRISat-1 is now included, though with the alternate name RADIOSCAF-B. Thanks as always to Tim Kelso.

Alan WA4SCA

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