It's a terrible shame that Amsat has choosen not to continue Mode S on Eagle. I for one will no longer send my hard earned cash as a donation to Eagle or Amsat NA,but to Amsat DL as I'm sure many others will do. The expression "Don't bite the hand that feeds you " comes to mind. I have a full Mode L / S setup here sitting waiting unused since the day AO 40 died, what use are LEO's in Western Australia. Sorry Amsat NA but I wont be renewing my membership next time without mode S. 73 Keiith
Keith.
I delurk to note this. It will be entertaining to see if Eagle is built...ie if the money shows up for it...and then it will be entertaining to see how many pony up for the specialized radios the special modes are going to take. A lot of the latter will dependon what the cost are.
The fact that the birds get more complicated and die quicker (well AO-40 was certianly "less") will kill any serious traditional amateur radio manufactor from pushing the specialized gear. A startup or two might try the gear (particularly if AMSAT designs it) but odds are it will be virtually useless if the bird dies, which after AO-40 will be on everyone's mind.
It will also be interesting to see how P3E affects this, when it strikes me as very likely that P3E will fly...at some point. I sometimes look back on the AO-40 Easy Sat articles (well written by Steve Ford) and smile.
anyway intresting comments on your part.
Robert Oler WB5MZO/portable
Amsat Life member
Robert Oler WB5MZO Houston TX
----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Oler" cvn65vf94@msn.com To: vk6xh@arach.net.au; amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2006 6:33 AM Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: The Eagle has died.
I sometimes look back on the AO-40 Easy Sat articles (well written by Steve Ford) and smile.
anyway intresting comments on your part.
Robert Oler WB5MZO/portable
Amsat Life member Robert Oler WB5MZO Houston TX
Hi Robert, WB5MZO
In addition to the Steve Ford articles read please the article written by Antony Monteiro AA2TX in to QST september 2006 page-42 and smile again !
73" de
i8CVS Domenico
Mode U/S with AO-40 was a real pleasure to work, with excellent signals once the receiving set-up had been optimized (1.2 m solid dish and a good DB6NT LNA). Living here in high density WiFi area, cordless phones, wireless CCTV and all kind of 2.4 Ghz junk ! I could regularly hear the noise floor of the S band transponder and contact very low power stations. 73's Eric EA5GIY
----- Original Message ----- From: "i8cvs" domenico.i8cvs@tin.it To: "Robert Oler" cvn65vf94@msn.com; "Keith Bainbridge" vk6xh@arach.net.au; "AMSAT-BB" amsat-bb@amsat.org Cc: iz1dsj@sparks.it Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2006 2:52 PM Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: The Eagle has died.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Oler" cvn65vf94@msn.com To: vk6xh@arach.net.au; amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2006 6:33 AM Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: The Eagle has died.
I sometimes look back on the AO-40 Easy Sat articles (well written by Steve Ford) and smile.
anyway intresting comments on your part.
Robert Oler WB5MZO/portable
Amsat Life member Robert Oler WB5MZO Houston TX
Hi Robert, WB5MZO
In addition to the Steve Ford articles read please the article written by Antony Monteiro AA2TX in to QST september 2006 page-42 and smile again !
73" de
i8CVS Domenico
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Eric.
Delurking a tad longer.
I've read and well understand the engineering points the folks on Eagle are making. I am curious if they have addressed some other issues.
If they get the money to build the bird then the "community" which supports this has agreed with their decision. If they cant then well they cant. The next step will be to see if they can get the "buy in" to buy the equipment that is going to be required for the new modes which they seem to be banking the bird on.
The irony is that they (on Eagle) are facing the same challenge that manufactors in the light sport airplane market are. The LSA market right now is divided up between two different groups. People who are spending large sums of money for brand new LSA vehicles and people who are buying Ercoupe like (read very old) LSA vehicles. Right now an Ercoupe C is about 10000 dollars more then a D...why? The C is LSA qualified and goes for around 20-30K. The cheapest "new" LSA goes for over 70K.
The new LSA's have wonder instruments (LCD like displays...gee make me think I am in the Boeing) and the ERcoupes have instruments in some cases older then I am. But the ERcoupes are selling.
Why? They are what people can "buy into" the hobby for on the dollars they are willing to spend.
The question that I see in the amateur satellite community is do we want "wonderful modes" or do we prefer larger numbers.
If they get the new modes on EAgle will it be with hardware that is easily buildable by the "average Ham"? Does anyone here really see that like AO-40 where MDS converters could be pressed into service, all this stuff is going to be "user friendly".
The odd part is that the "tinkerers" in the community more or less rose to the challenge in terms of tinkering a setup for AO-40 S band. yeah it never worked with tiny dishes and the like. But my guess is that this "easy sat" approach is a goal that is a couple of bridges to far. but put up a good sized dish and work on the installation to optimize it and the results were pretty "impressive".
Oh well I am not on the board and probably never will be and there are smart people there. They have made their decision.
It will just be interesting to see if they can get the "money" support for their decisions. Back home in Houston the folks who are selling the "new" LSA's have branched out into refurbishing LSA capable "classic" airplanes...that is what they are selling.
I just wonder what would change if instead of a "wonder bird" every 15 years...we had a steady supply of AO-10 vehicles.
Robert Oler
WB5MZO/portable Life member AMSAT/ARRL
Eagle provides U/V so no one has to buy new equipment.
73,
John KD6OZH
----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Oler" cvn65vf94@msn.com To: ericvo@telefonica.net; amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2006 15:32 UTC Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: The Eagle has died.
Eric.
Delurking a tad longer.
I've read and well understand the engineering points the folks on Eagle
are
making. I am curious if they have addressed some other issues.
If they get the money to build the bird then the "community" which
supports
this has agreed with their decision. If they cant then well they cant.
The
next step will be to see if they can get the "buy in" to buy the equipment that is going to be required for the new modes which they seem to be
banking
the bird on.
The irony is that they (on Eagle) are facing the same challenge that manufactors in the light sport airplane market are. The LSA market right now is divided up between two different groups. People who are spending large sums of money for brand new LSA vehicles and people who are buying Ercoupe like (read very old) LSA vehicles. Right now an Ercoupe C is
about
10000 dollars more then a D...why? The C is LSA qualified and goes for around 20-30K. The cheapest "new" LSA goes for over 70K.
The new LSA's have wonder instruments (LCD like displays...gee make me
think
I am in the Boeing) and the ERcoupes have instruments in some cases older then I am. But the ERcoupes are selling.
Why? They are what people can "buy into" the hobby for on the dollars
they
are willing to spend.
The question that I see in the amateur satellite community is do we want "wonderful modes" or do we prefer larger numbers.
If they get the new modes on EAgle will it be with hardware that is
easily
buildable by the "average Ham"? Does anyone here really see that like
AO-40
where MDS converters could be pressed into service, all this stuff is goin
g
to be "user friendly".
The odd part is that the "tinkerers" in the community more or less rose to the challenge in terms of tinkering a setup for AO-40 S band. yeah it
never
worked with tiny dishes and the like. But my guess is that this "easy
sat"
approach is a goal that is a couple of bridges to far. but put up a good sized dish and work on the installation to optimize it and the results
were
pretty "impressive".
Oh well I am not on the board and probably never will be and there are
smart
people there. They have made their decision.
It will just be interesting to see if they can get the "money" support for their decisions. Back home in Houston the folks who are selling the "new" LSA's have branched out into refurbishing LSA capable "classic" airplanes...that is what they are selling.
I just wonder what would change if instead of a "wonder bird" every 15 years...we had a steady supply of AO-10 vehicles.
Robert Oler
WB5MZO/portable Life member AMSAT/ARRL
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
i8cvs,
If Eagle dies, so does technoloigy for AMSAT, and the Amateur Radio Community!
What is next? Quenched Arc? Spark? 200 KHz and down?
Art , KC6UQH ----- Original Message ----- From: "i8cvs" domenico.i8cvs@tin.it To: "Robert Oler" cvn65vf94@msn.com; "Keith Bainbridge" vk6xh@arach.net.au; "AMSAT-BB" amsat-bb@amsat.org Cc: iz1dsj@sparks.it Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2006 5:52 AM Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: The Eagle has died.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Oler" cvn65vf94@msn.com To: vk6xh@arach.net.au; amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2006 6:33 AM Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: The Eagle has died.
I sometimes look back on the AO-40 Easy Sat articles (well written by Steve Ford) and smile.
anyway intresting comments on your part.
Robert Oler WB5MZO/portable
Amsat Life member Robert Oler WB5MZO Houston TX
Hi Robert, WB5MZO
In addition to the Steve Ford articles read please the article written by Antony Monteiro AA2TX in to QST september 2006 page-42 and smile again !
73" de
i8CVS Domenico
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
If Eagle dies, so does technoloigy for AMSAT, and the Amateur Radio Community!
What is next? Quenched Arc? Spark? 200 KHz and down?
Art , KC6UQH
Hello Art.
Look, the BOD has a tough job. I spent 6 years as a "volunteer" but have to get elected official (The President of my community association) and it is a thankless job. They have made their decision.....we will see how it works out.
But I would say this about technology.
Neither Technology nor technology development exist in a vacumn. NASA proves that daily with human spaceflight. Had human spaceflight ended after Skylab there is not a single way that The Republic would be different, except the taxpayers would not have funded a flawed agency, and a lot of very good talent would have been put to use doing something useful. Even my home community in Clear Lake City TX would be better off (the home of the Johnson Space Center).
NASA human spaceflight is technology for technologies sake. It has no effect on the rest of The Republic whatsoever. For all the hype NASA hasnt done a spin off in human spaceflight worth the money invested in it, since Apollo.
If AMSAT engineers have a lot of technology skills...good for them. On the other hand if the folks who use the satellites in the amateur community keep going down...what is the point in keeping a few people "up to speed" to do something that is not pumping the numbers of people who use the technology "up"?
Now say that whatever technology is orbited actually increased the amateur satellite community...
is that a good thing?
I think that it is the GOOD THING, the only good thing.
If the technology available makes the community larger I think that is a better thing then if the technology "rocks" but the group using it is smaller.
I close with this thought. Instead of Oscar 40, had the community gotten two more Oscar 13's. Pretty plain jane birds with not a lot of gizmos and Amsat engineers would have had to have been content with reinventing the wheel...but say instead of AO-40 as a pile of junk we had two more Oscar 13's that worked.
Dont you think it would have been a better deal then we got? Do you think that there would have been more or less people involved in HEO communications?
I think more...and I think that is a good thing.
Robert G. Oler WB5MZO/portable Life member AMSAT ARRL and a few other organizatiions.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Oler" cvn65vf94@msn.com To: kc6uqh@cox.net; domenico.i8cvs@tin.it; vk6xh@arach.net.au; amsat-bb@amsat.org Cc: iz1dsj@sparks.it Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2006 4:56 AM Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Re: The Eagle has died.
If Eagle dies, so does technoloigy for AMSAT, and the Amateur Radio Community!
What is next? Quenched Arc? Spark? 200 KHz and down?
Art , KC6UQH
Hello Art.
clipped
I close with this thought. Instead of Oscar 40, had the community gotten two more Oscar 13's. Pretty plain jane birds with not a lot of gizmos and Amsat engineers would have had to have been content with reinventing the wheel...but say instead of AO-40 as a pile of junk we had two more Oscar 13's that worked.
Dont you think it would have been a better deal then we got? Do you think that there would have been more or less people involved in HEO communications?
I think more...and I think that is a good thing.
Robert G. Oler WB5MZO/portable Life member AMSAT ARRL and a few other organizatiions.
I agree Robert
Much more content satellite users with reinventing the wheel !
Look at many are actually operating CW and SSB on OSCAR-7 , FO-29 and VO-52 waiting for the next viable HEO
73" de
i8CVS Domenico
Quoting i8cvs domenico.i8cvs@tin.it:
----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Oler" cvn65vf94@msn.com To: kc6uqh@cox.net; domenico.i8cvs@tin.it; vk6xh@arach.net.au; amsat-bb@amsat.org Cc: iz1dsj@sparks.it Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2006 4:56 AM Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Re: The Eagle has died.
If Eagle dies, so does technoloigy for AMSAT, and the Amateur Radio Community!
What is next? Quenched Arc? Spark? 200 KHz and down?
Art , KC6UQH
Hello Art.
clipped
I close with this thought. Instead of Oscar 40, had the community
gotten
two more Oscar 13's. Pretty plain jane birds with not a lot of gizmos
and
Amsat engineers would have had to have been content with reinventing
the
wheel...but say instead of AO-40 as a pile of junk we had two more
Oscar
13's that worked.
Dont you think it would have been a better deal then we got? Do you
think
that there would have been more or less people involved in HEO communications?
I think more...and I think that is a good thing.
Robert G. Oler WB5MZO/portable Life member AMSAT ARRL and a few other organizatiions.
I agree Robert
Much more content satellite users with reinventing the wheel !
Look at many are actually operating CW and SSB on OSCAR-7 , FO-29 and VO-52 waiting for the next viable HEO
73" de
i8CVS Domenico
Happily, two of the three birds you mention above, AO-7 and VO-52, are in exactly the mode that analog Eagle users will be using, U/V. As I understand it, the plan is to have this link working 24/7. (Yes it will primarily use a software-driven transponder, but that will be transparent to the analog user.) In this regard, I can't see how the design team can be accused of unnecessarily innovating.
73, Bruce VE9QRP
----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce Robertson" broberts@mta.ca To: "AMSAT-BB" amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2006 5:22 PM Subject: [amsat-bb] The Mode B tradition, was Re: The Eagle has died.
Quoting i8cvs domenico.i8cvs@tin.it:
----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Oler" cvn65vf94@msn.com To: kc6uqh@cox.net; domenico.i8cvs@tin.it; vk6xh@arach.net.au; amsat-bb@amsat.org Cc: iz1dsj@sparks.it Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2006 4:56 AM Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Re: The Eagle has died.
If Eagle dies, so does technoloigy for AMSAT, and the Amateur Radio Community!
What is next? Quenched Arc? Spark? 200 KHz and down?
Art , KC6UQH
Hello Art.
clipped
I close with this thought. Instead of Oscar 40, had the community
gotten
two more Oscar 13's. Pretty plain jane birds with not a lot of gizmos
and
Amsat engineers would have had to have been content with reinventing
the
wheel...but say instead of AO-40 as a pile of junk we had two more
Oscar
13's that worked.
Dont you think it would have been a better deal then we got? Do you
think
that there would have been more or less people involved in HEO communications?
I think more...and I think that is a good thing.
Robert G. Oler WB5MZO/portable Life member AMSAT ARRL and a few other organizatiions.
I agree Robert
Much more content satellite users with reinventing the wheel !
Look at many are actually operating CW and SSB on OSCAR-7 , FO-29 and VO-52 waiting for the next viable HEO
73" de
i8CVS Domenico
Happily, two of the three birds you mention above, AO-7 and VO-52, are in exactly the mode that analog Eagle users will be using, U/V. As I understand it, the plan is to have this link working 24/7. (Yes it will primarily use a software-driven transponder, but that will be transparent to the analog user.) In this regard, I can't see how the design team can be accused of unnecessarily innovating.
73, Bruce VE9QRP
Hi Bruce, VE9QRP
You missed the point because Robert (and I aegree) says that from an operational point of view it would much better to have two less costly satellite like OSCAR-13 now in orbit but working instead of a more complicaded and costly AO40 not working.
When AO40 died I losted all my satellite friends in the USA and Pacific area and you losted all your friends in Europe and so on.
If two OSCAR-13 similar satellites where working now we all will be discussing this problems on the air for hours instead to push the keyboard on internet and the numbar of satellite users will be larger and having a larger number of satellite users means to have big voice and power during the IARU and ITU Conferences
On the other side from the techincal point of view if AO40 was not born then our knowledge and skill in microwave would be less.
A good balance from the operational and technical needs is necessary because radio-ham is not only technical or only operational but a mix of both but initially the easy space communication is more important then highly technological.
Let at first the amateur community to work worldwide with satellites similar to OSCAR-13 and hopefully P3E to prevent that they becames frustrated waiting a life in a single FM channel for a new good one after OSCAR-13 or AO40
73" de
i8CVS Domenico
As Bruce says, the plan for Eagle is 2 satellites much smaller than AO-40 with the mode (B or UV) that was used on AO-10, AO-13 and AO-40. Two problems with previous phase 3 satellites were that the transponder had to be turned off during parts of the year and some modes only worked near apogee. Consequently, a new mechanical design was proposed that allows operation at all sun angles encountered in Eagle's orbit and has gain antennas that work over approximately 75% of the orbit.
73,
John KD6OZH
----- Original Message ----- From: "i8cvs" domenico.i8cvs@tin.it To: brobertson@mta.ca; "AMSAT-BB" amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2006 18:53 UTC Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: The Mode B tradition, was Re: The Eagle has died.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce Robertson" broberts@mta.ca To: "AMSAT-BB" amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2006 5:22 PM Subject: [amsat-bb] The Mode B tradition, was Re: The Eagle has died.
Quoting i8cvs domenico.i8cvs@tin.it:
----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Oler" cvn65vf94@msn.com To: kc6uqh@cox.net; domenico.i8cvs@tin.it; vk6xh@arach.net.au; amsat-bb@amsat.org Cc: iz1dsj@sparks.it Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2006 4:56 AM Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Re: The Eagle has died.
If Eagle dies, so does technoloigy for AMSAT, and the Amateur Radio Community!
What is next? Quenched Arc? Spark? 200 KHz and down?
Art , KC6UQH
Hello Art.
clipped
I close with this thought. Instead of Oscar 40, had the community
gotten
two more Oscar 13's. Pretty plain jane birds with not a lot of gizmos
and
Amsat engineers would have had to have been content with reinventing
the
wheel...but say instead of AO-40 as a pile of junk we had two more
Oscar
13's that worked.
Dont you think it would have been a better deal then we got? Do you
think
that there would have been more or less people involved in HEO communications?
I think more...and I think that is a good thing.
Robert G. Oler WB5MZO/portable Life member AMSAT ARRL and a few other organizatiions.
I agree Robert
Much more content satellite users with reinventing the wheel !
Look at many are actually operating CW and SSB on OSCAR-7 , FO-29 and VO-52 waiting for the next viable HEO
73" de
i8CVS Domenico
Happily, two of the three birds you mention above, AO-7 and VO-52, are in exactly the mode that analog Eagle users will be using, U/V. As I understand it, the plan is to have this link working 24/7. (Yes it will primarily use a software-driven transponder, but that will be transparent to the analog user.) In this regard, I can't see how the design team can be accused of unnecessarily innovating.
73, Bruce VE9QRP
Hi Bruce, VE9QRP
You missed the point because Robert (and I aegree) says that from an operational point of view it would much better to have two less costly satellite like OSCAR-13 now in orbit but working instead of a more complicaded and costly AO40 not working.
When AO40 died I losted all my satellite friends in the USA and Pacific area and you losted all your friends in Europe and so on.
If two OSCAR-13 similar satellites where working now we all will be discussing this problems on the air for hours instead to push the keyboard on internet and the numbar of satellite users will be larger and having a larger number of satellite users means to have big voice and power during the IARU and ITU Conferences
On the other side from the techincal point of view if AO40 was not born then our knowledge and skill in microwave would be less.
A good balance from the operational and technical needs is necessary because radio-ham is not only technical or only operational but a mix of both but initially the easy space communication is more important then highly technological.
Let at first the amateur community to work worldwide with satellites similar to OSCAR-13 and hopefully P3E to prevent that they becames frustrated waiting a life in a single FM channel for a new good one after OSCAR-13 or AO40
73" de
i8CVS Domenico
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
participants (7)
-
Bruce Robertson -
Eric Van Offelen -
i8cvs -
John B. Stephensen -
kc6uqh -
Keith Bainbridge -
Robert Oler