On an AO-91 pass earlier this Sunday, I heard a partial callsign who said “Looking for initial contact.” I responded and he heard me. But then we were stomped out by the usual stations. It was the weekend; the worst time of all to be on FM. It’s hard to welcome new users to satellites when this happens. I would add: this is not the first time. Week before last we had new people, rovers, portables, and kids-at-the-mike on an AO-91 pass. They all got stomped. No QSOs heard with any of them. Some have suggested that launching more FM birds would alleviate the stompfest. But how many more birds would it take before the number of ops per pass begins to thin out? It might be a large number given the appetite among some ops for repeat QSOs with the same station again and again on every pass. Behavior mod on the part of veteran FM ops doesn’t seem to be in the cards. So what about this? Suppose the next gen FM birds were channelized? That would divide the number of ops per pass. Thoughts? Ray KN2K
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This is the problem of fm sats. It is the first pass the pole system. I wish we had more linear transponders.
On Sun, Aug 7, 2022, 11:07 PM crohtun--- via AMSAT-BB [email protected] wrote:
On an AO-91 pass earlier this Sunday, I heard a partial callsign who said “Looking for initial contact.” I responded and he heard me. But then we were stomped out by the usual stations. It was the weekend; the worst time of all to be on FM. It’s hard to welcome new users to satellites when this happens. I would add: this is not the first time. Week before last we had new people, rovers, portables, and kids-at-the-mike on an AO-91 pass. They all got stomped. No QSOs heard with any of them.
Some have suggested that launching more FM birds would alleviate the stompfest. But how many more birds would it take before the number of ops per pass begins to thin out? It might be a large number given the appetite among some ops for repeat QSOs with the same station again and again on every pass.
Behavior mod on the part of veteran FM ops doesn’t seem to be in the cards. So what about this? Suppose the next gen FM birds were channelized? That would divide the number of ops per pass. Thoughts?
Ray KN2K
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Hello Ray Nice idea. channelized receive is fairly easy without excess power consumption. - single downconverter with multiple IF's or SDR equivalent. The main issue is on transmit where you need to share the limited 'DC power' between multiple transmitters.Probably possible to do 2 x transmitters on a 2U and 3 x transmitters on a 3U. Some fancy final amplifier running a high efficiency mode like class D or E shouldn't hurt the power budget too much 73 David
Behavior mod on the part of veteran FM ops doesn’t seem to be in the cards. So what about this? Suppose the next gen FM birds were channelized? That would divide the number of ops per pass. Thoughts? Ray KN2K
AO-51 did it (two simultaneous FM xmitters)—but hardly a cubesat!!
Mark N8MH
On Sun, Aug 7, 2022 at 4:29 PM David G0MRF via AMSAT-BB [email protected] wrote:
Hello Ray
Nice idea. channelized receive is fairly easy without excess power consumption. - single downconverter with multiple IF's or SDR equivalent. The main issue is on transmit where you need to share the limited 'DC power' between multiple transmitters. Probably possible to do 2 x transmitters on a 2U and 3 x transmitters on a 3U. Some fancy final amplifier running a high efficiency mode like class D or E shouldn't hurt the power budget too much
73 David
Behavior mod on the part of veteran FM ops doesn’t seem to be in the cards. So what about this? Suppose the next gen FM birds were channelized? That would divide the number of ops per pass. Thoughts?
Ray KN2K
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On 8/7/22 12:45, Ashhar Farhan wrote:
This is the problem of fm sats. It is the first pass the pole system. I wish we had more linear transponders.
Hello Ashhar,
I agree that FM satellites are of limited use due to the "capture" effect and alligators. No matter how many FM channels we include on future satellites, we'll always have someone getting stomped on. Additionally, FM is not an efficient mode with regard to limited satellite power. It requires much greater SNR than SSB/CW or digital voice (with FEC).
Everyone on amsat-bb,
I see the need for innovation in the following areas:
1. More linear satellites for CW/SSB modes.
2. More _digital_ satellites for digital voice and networked data.
Packet is simple and effective, but we can do better in the future. 9k6 or faster uplink, 56k downlinks? How about linked satellites (sat->Earth->sat or sat->sat if we're ambitious) using part of the 44.0.0.0/8 network and being amateur radio's "internet in space"?
3. Kit-form ground equipment
Yes, digital modes are better use of spectrum and power, but a 144/440 MHz SSB/CW kit could be done with a micro-controller that does the Doppler adjustment for the user. Nothing requiring an external PC.
I envision a small board, the size of a pack of playing cards, which has all the RF and processing needed to be a linear/digital (or even FM) ground terminal for the above satellites. Use BLE (Bluetooth Low Energy) for the link to your cell phone or whatnot for the UI to keep it simple.
AMSAT needs volunteers with vision and, most importantly, _time_ to make some of these visions a reality.
If any of this sounds interesting, please contact us!
https://www.amsat.org/volunteer-for-amsat
Should you not get a reply, don't hesitate to send me a note and, as one of your elected BoD members, I'll make sure your volunteer request is evaluated and matched up with AMSATs needs. Don't worry if you're not sure you have the skills to do it- We're all amateurs here and we all had to learn at some point!
73,
--- Zach N0ZGO
The real problem is that nobody has any etiquette. If someone calls someone, then you wait until they have finished. Everyone needs to understand that you may not get a contact every pass and if someone is already in an active exchange, you wait, you dont throw your call in. I have often made a call and had someone return my call only to have someone start calling and ultimately preventing my exchange. Oh well, i gave up on people acting like gentlemen.
On Sunday, August 7, 2022 at 02:32:52 PM PDT, Zach Metzinger [email protected] wrote:
On 8/7/22 12:45, Ashhar Farhan wrote:
This is the problem of fm sats. It is the first pass the pole system. I wish we had more linear transponders.
Hello Ashhar,
I agree that FM satellites are of limited use due to the "capture" effect and alligators. No matter how many FM channels we include on future satellites, we'll always have someone getting stomped on. Additionally, FM is not an efficient mode with regard to limited satellite power. It requires much greater SNR than SSB/CW or digital voice (with FEC).
Everyone on amsat-bb,
I see the need for innovation in the following areas:
1. More linear satellites for CW/SSB modes.
2. More _digital_ satellites for digital voice and networked data.
Packet is simple and effective, but we can do better in the future. 9k6 or faster uplink, 56k downlinks? How about linked satellites (sat->Earth->sat or sat->sat if we're ambitious) using part of the 44.0.0.0/8 network and being amateur radio's "internet in space"?
3. Kit-form ground equipment
Yes, digital modes are better use of spectrum and power, but a 144/440 MHz SSB/CW kit could be done with a micro-controller that does the Doppler adjustment for the user. Nothing requiring an external PC.
I envision a small board, the size of a pack of playing cards, which has all the RF and processing needed to be a linear/digital (or even FM) ground terminal for the above satellites. Use BLE (Bluetooth Low Energy) for the link to your cell phone or whatnot for the UI to keep it simple.
AMSAT needs volunteers with vision and, most importantly, _time_ to make some of these visions a reality.
If any of this sounds interesting, please contact us!
https://www.amsat.org/volunteer-for-amsat
Should you not get a reply, don't hesitate to send me a note and, as one of your elected BoD members, I'll make sure your volunteer request is evaluated and matched up with AMSATs needs. Don't worry if you're not sure you have the skills to do it- We're all amateurs here and we all had to learn at some point!
73,
--- Zach N0ZGO
-----------------------------------------------------------
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Dave,
I just got back from the PNW Annual DX Convention. Granted the FM capture effect is little different but the lack of etiquette is the same as is found in a Dx pileup. They played a tape of a DXpedition (TX5N) trying to work a DL. The Dx station would call "DL?"and seemingly *everyone *seemed to think the Dx station must be wrong and he was really trying to call *them*. It took minutes to complete the Q - minutes on a satellite Q we don't often have. Somebody in this thread pointed out we may not get a Q ever pass. But there will be another one in the not too distant future. It's a *hobby* so, please everyone relax.
I agree that linear satellites are much easier to work with. The barrier to entry is the price of the equipment. Hard to beat a couple of Baofengs and a homemade Arrow antenna to get on an FM bird. In my view part of the solution is to come up with a way to lower the cost of entry for an SSB satellite ground station. CW would be nice but/and most new hams do not know CW. Sad but very true so not really a very good option.
John
On Sun, Aug 7, 2022 at 2:42 PM David Cheitel via AMSAT-BB < [email protected]> wrote:
The real problem is that nobody has any etiquette. If someone calls someone, then you wait until they have finished. Everyone needs to understand that you may not get a contact every pass and if someone is already in an active exchange, you wait, you dont throw your call in. I have often made a call and had someone return my call only to have someone start calling and ultimately preventing my exchange. Oh well, i gave up on people acting like gentlemen.
On Sunday, August 7, 2022 at 02:32:52 PM PDT, Zach Metzinger < [email protected]> wrote:
On 8/7/22 12:45, Ashhar Farhan wrote:
This is the problem of fm sats. It is the first pass the pole system. I wish we had more linear transponders.
Hello Ashhar,
I agree that FM satellites are of limited use due to the "capture" effect and alligators. No matter how many FM channels we include on future satellites, we'll always have someone getting stomped on. Additionally, FM is not an efficient mode with regard to limited satellite power. It requires much greater SNR than SSB/CW or digital voice (with FEC).
Everyone on amsat-bb,
I see the need for innovation in the following areas:
More linear satellites for CW/SSB modes.
More _digital_ satellites for digital voice and networked data.
Packet is simple and effective, but we can do better in the future. 9k6 or faster uplink, 56k downlinks? How about linked satellites (sat->Earth->sat or sat->sat if we're ambitious) using part of the 44.0.0.0/8 network and being amateur radio's "internet in space"?
- Kit-form ground equipment
Yes, digital modes are better use of spectrum and power, but a 144/440 MHz SSB/CW kit could be done with a micro-controller that does the Doppler adjustment for the user. Nothing requiring an external PC.
I envision a small board, the size of a pack of playing cards, which has all the RF and processing needed to be a linear/digital (or even FM) ground terminal for the above satellites. Use BLE (Bluetooth Low Energy) for the link to your cell phone or whatnot for the UI to keep it simple.
AMSAT needs volunteers with vision and, most importantly, _time_ to make some of these visions a reality.
If any of this sounds interesting, please contact us!
https://www.amsat.org/volunteer-for-amsat
Should you not get a reply, don't hesitate to send me a note and, as one of your elected BoD members, I'll make sure your volunteer request is evaluated and matched up with AMSATs needs. Don't worry if you're not sure you have the skills to do it- We're all amateurs here and we all had to learn at some point!
73,
--- Zach N0ZGO
Sent via AMSAT-BB(a)amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Acceptable Use and Privacy Policies available at https://www.amsat.org/about-amsat/
View archives of this mailing list at https://mailman.amsat.org/hyperkitty/list/[email protected] To unsubscribe send an email to amsat-bb-leave(a)amsat.org Manage all of your AMSAT-NA mailing list preferences at https://mailman.amsat.org
Sent via AMSAT-BB(a)amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Acceptable Use and Privacy Policies available at https://www.amsat.org/about-amsat/
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participants (7)
-
Ashhar Farhan -
crohtun＠aol.com -
David Cheitel -
David G0MRF -
John Kludt -
Mark L. Hammond -
Zach Metzinger