Re: Phase IV satellite or GOLF
Hi Graham,
Great news, thanks for sharing the info which I am copying to the BB so that all aware.
I take this opportunity to thank you and the coordination team at IARU for the MIR-SAT 1 (MO-112) project, you guys have been instrumental with the success of the mission with advices and suggestions. Thanks to you, Hans and all others.
73
Jean Marc (3B8DU)
On Aug 15, 2022, at 9:35 PM, Graham Shirville [email protected] wrote:
Hi Jean Marc,
Just to give you this info about what the Chinese are up to!
http://www.amsatuk.me.uk/iaru/finished_detail.php?serialnum=857 http://www.amsatuk.me.uk/iaru/finished_detail.php?serialnum=857 best wishes
Graham
On 15/08/2022 16:55, Jean Marc Momple wrote:
Jim,
I am like you and don’t like contest type of QSO but chatting with friends around the world and also technical experimentation.
As regards the regulations, your are right that this is probably the biggest hurdle to put our own GEO up there. Just trying to simplify the issues in a nutshell for easy understanding of all: first we will have to find a slot to cover an hemisphere (not cheap), then build the bird and find a launcher (extremely) expensive. More maintain the bird position in space for its life time (say 15 years) and finally park it in the graveyard, this operational part is probably beyond our capabilities and also the risks are huge e.g. (worst case) that we damage a commercial bird up there and all the possible legal and compensation issue.
Therefore, I reiterate that the QO-100 model is the best approach to have a global GEO network or at least one over Americas, AMSAT-DL & QSAR have done it and have the experience, they have the technical design of the transponders, know all possible issues and also now experienced of operating it. Thus we should use the knowledge acquired and copy with pride. Actually if it is Mitsubishi building a commercial GEO (as they build QO-100) for deployment over an interesting slot for us it would be even easier as they built the HAM transponders, contacting them can be an opportunity eventually as they can bridge the gap between us and their customers (just an idea), may be contacting all the GEO satellites manufacturers (not many anyway) is better as they may be able to put us in contact with their customers thus increasing chances of a ride.
I also again appeal to all AMSAT leaders to join force and have a common strategy for HAM in space, whatever the outcome HEO, GEO or LEO it will focus our efforts in one direction and enable to reinforce/keep our presence in space.
Another though, now that our Chinese friends have a space station it would be nice that they have some similar program such as ARISS for students and HAM radio on board, May be any B HAM leader could comment on same.
73
Jean Marc (3B8DU)
On Aug 15, 2022, at 5:37 AM, [email protected] mailto:[email protected] wrote:
I have realized the past few days that our AMSAT group has some really smart Hams! Thanks very much for the information. I have a few more questions. As I said before I would like to have more than a five minute QSO. I am not much of a contester, more a rag chewer. But I am afraid, if I understand most of you correctly, that is probably not going to happen in my life time? I reference K0JM's comments it's not so much the money but the regulatory environment that will stop this. I don't see this getting any easier in the next year, five years, or ten years. Does anybody else see anything different? And throwing in N8FGV's comments about the timing of the launch seems like a long shot as well. I spent a ton of money prior to AO-40 getting equipment ready to go in high hopes of having an AO-13 length run with so much more to do! I was terribly excited about this bird only to have it vanish before my eyes before I really got started. My last question is would a GOLF type satellite have the same obstacles as a Phase IV bird? If so I am probably going to have a-lot of satellite ham gear for sale real soon. Again thanks for your input.
WA5QAP
(licensed in 1966)
---------------------------- Original Message ---------------------------- Subject: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite From: "Daniel Schultz" <[email protected] mailto:[email protected]> Date: Fri, August 12, 2022 6:57 pm To: "AMSAT-BB" <[email protected] mailto:[email protected]>
Hosting our payload on a commercial GEO satellite would likely cost more than $10 million if the commercial satellite owner is to be fully compensated for the engineering modifications to their satellite and potential loss of transponder revenue from diverting satellite resources to a non-productive payload over a 15 year design lifetime. Offering a tax break will probably not make up this difference. You might have better luck seeking hosting on a government owned satellite such as the Air Force mission that was discussed by AMSAT a few years ago, but eventually fell through. This is where carefully cultivated personal relationships can come in, if you have any such friends in high places. OSCAR-1 got its launch approved back in 1961 because of a few highly placed hams in the Pentagon, so keep up with your networking and maybe it can happen.
Some orbits are inherently unstable, for example 63 degree Molniya orbits will reliably decay in a few years. The Late, Great OSCAR-13 provides a prime example of this. Their orbital lifetime is heavily sensitive to the time of launch, if AO-13 was launched a few hours earlier it would still be up there, a few hours later it would have reentered a couple of years after launch. This is easy to model in GMAT.
As a secondary payload, we don't get to choose the launch time, our only hope would be to use thrusters to make slight post-launch adjustments so the satellite reenters not too early (as AO-13 did) and not too late. I have been trying to figure out how to do this but have not had any results so far. If we have a dedicated launch all to ourselves we can choose a launch time that meets our requirements.
The NASA Cubesat that was recently grounded was aiming for a GTO launch, which has been mentioned as a possible target for an AMSAT mission because we could possibly get one cheap. Analysis of NORAD tracking data shows a lot of spent rocket bodies that have been in GTO for decades, so this might not be the best choice for a mission that needs a guaranteed reentry date.
Another possibility would be to place the satellite directly into the GEO graveyard orbit and let it slowly drift around the Earth. There are plenty of other HEO or Cislunar orbits that are not sensitive to orbital debris requirements and may not be commercially attractive but would work OK for our needs.
So yes, if we had $10 million in our bank account we could buy our way out of a lot of problems that only affect poor people who are lacking options.
73, Dan N8FGV
------ Original Message ------ Received: Fri, 12 Aug 2022 12:28:55 PM EDT
From: Paul Andrews <[email protected] mailto:[email protected]>
Subject: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite
Yes! Find a commercial GEOsat with room to support an amateur payload. Leverage commercial economics for launch and platform reliability. The commercial operator can donate (tax break) the value of the ham (STEM) capability. Maybe ham bands at 10 GHz and above. Simple bent pipe.
------ Original Message ------ Received: Fri, 12 Aug 2022 11:28:21 AM EDT
From: "Mark Johns, K0JM" <[email protected] mailto:[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite
The launch costs, while significant, are beside the point. The biggest issue with HEO satellites are the regulatory challenges. AMSAT and international partners could build and get ready for launch such a satellite within a few years, just as they did with AO-10, AO-13, and AO-40. But they would not get a license to put it into orbit in the current regulatory environment. The technical and financial challenges can be met, but the licensing requirements are killing us.
Sent via AMSAT-BB(a)amsat.org http://amsat.org/. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Acceptable Use and Privacy Policies available at https://www.amsat.org/about-amsat/ https://www.amsat.org/about-amsat/
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Sent via AMSAT-BB(a)amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Acceptable Use and Privacy Policies available at https://www.amsat.org/about-amsat/ https://www.amsat.org/about-amsat/
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The Chinese plans for amateur radio on their space station have been widely reported. However, China has not indicated when that operation will commence. -- Mark D. Johns, KØJM AMSAT Ambassador & News Service Editor Brooklyn Park, MN USA EN35hd ----------------------------------------------- "Heaven goes by favor; if it went by merit, you would stay out and your dog would go in." ---Mark Twain
On Mon, Aug 15, 2022 at 12:45 PM Jean Marc Momple [email protected] wrote:
Hi Graham,
Great news, thanks for sharing the info which I am copying to the BB so that all aware.
I take this opportunity to thank you and the coordination team at IARU for the MIR-SAT 1 (MO-112) project, you guys have been instrumental with the success of the mission with advices and suggestions. Thanks to you, Hans and all others.
73
Jean Marc (3B8DU)
On Aug 15, 2022, at 9:35 PM, Graham Shirville [email protected] wrote:
Hi Jean Marc,
Just to give you this info about what the Chinese are up to!
http://www.amsatuk.me.uk/iaru/finished_detail.php?serialnum=857
best wishes
Graham
On 15/08/2022 16:55, Jean Marc Momple wrote:
Jim,
I am like you and don’t like contest type of QSO but chatting with friends around the world and also technical experimentation.
As regards the regulations, your are right that this is probably the biggest hurdle to put our own GEO up there. Just trying to simplify the issues in a nutshell for easy understanding of all: first we will have to find a slot to cover an hemisphere (not cheap), then build the bird and find a launcher (extremely) expensive. More maintain the bird position in space for its life time (say 15 years) and finally park it in the graveyard, this operational part is probably beyond our capabilities and also the risks are huge e.g. (worst case) that we damage a commercial bird up there and all the possible legal and compensation issue.
Therefore, I reiterate that the QO-100 model is the best approach to have a global GEO network or at least one over Americas, AMSAT-DL & QSAR have done it and have the experience, they have the technical design of the transponders, know all possible issues and also now experienced of operating it. Thus we should use the knowledge acquired and copy with pride. Actually if it is Mitsubishi building a commercial GEO (as they build QO-100) for deployment over an interesting slot for us it would be even easier as they built the HAM transponders, contacting them can be an opportunity eventually as they can bridge the gap between us and their customers (just an idea), may be contacting all the GEO satellites manufacturers (not many anyway) is better as they may be able to put us in contact with their customers thus increasing chances of a ride.
I also again appeal to all AMSAT leaders to join force and have a common strategy for HAM in space, whatever the outcome HEO, GEO or LEO it will focus our efforts in one direction and enable to reinforce/keep our presence in space.
Another though, now that our Chinese friends have a space station it would be nice that they have some similar program such as ARISS for students and HAM radio on board, May be any B HAM leader could comment on same.
73
Jean Marc (3B8DU)
On Aug 15, 2022, at 5:37 AM, [email protected] wrote:
I have realized the past few days that our AMSAT group has some really smart Hams! Thanks very much for the information. I have a few more questions. As I said before I would like to have more than a five minute QSO. I am not much of a contester, more a rag chewer. But I am afraid, if I understand most of you correctly, that is probably not going to happen in my life time? I reference K0JM's comments it's not so much the money but the regulatory environment that will stop this. I don't see this getting any easier in the next year, five years, or ten years. Does anybody else see anything different? And throwing in N8FGV's comments about the timing of the launch seems like a long shot as well. I spent a ton of money prior to AO-40 getting equipment ready to go in high hopes of having an AO-13 length run with so much more to do! I was terribly excited about this bird only to have it vanish before my eyes before I really got started. My last question is would a GOLF type satellite have the same obstacles as a Phase IV bird? If so I am probably going to have a-lot of satellite ham gear for sale real soon. Again thanks for your input.
WA5QAP
(licensed in 1966)
---------------------------- Original Message ---------------------------- Subject: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite From: "Daniel Schultz" [email protected] Date: Fri, August 12, 2022 6:57 pm To: "AMSAT-BB" [email protected]
Hosting our payload on a commercial GEO satellite would likely cost more than $10 million if the commercial satellite owner is to be fully compensated for the engineering modifications to their satellite and potential loss of transponder revenue from diverting satellite resources to a non-productive payload over a 15 year design lifetime. Offering a tax break will probably not make up this difference. You might have better luck seeking hosting on a government owned satellite such as the Air Force mission that was discussed by AMSAT a few years ago, but eventually fell through. This is where carefully cultivated personal relationships can come in, if you have any such friends in high places. OSCAR-1 got its launch approved back in 1961 because of a few highly placed hams in the Pentagon, so keep up with your networking and maybe it can happen.
Some orbits are inherently unstable, for example 63 degree Molniya orbits will reliably decay in a few years. The Late, Great OSCAR-13 provides a prime example of this. Their orbital lifetime is heavily sensitive to the time of launch, if AO-13 was launched a few hours earlier it would still be up there, a few hours later it would have reentered a couple of years after launch. This is easy to model in GMAT.
As a secondary payload, we don't get to choose the launch time, our only hope would be to use thrusters to make slight post-launch adjustments so the satellite reenters not too early (as AO-13 did) and not too late. I have been trying to figure out how to do this but have not had any results so far. If we have a dedicated launch all to ourselves we can choose a launch time that meets our requirements.
The NASA Cubesat that was recently grounded was aiming for a GTO launch, which has been mentioned as a possible target for an AMSAT mission because we could possibly get one cheap. Analysis of NORAD tracking data shows a lot of spent rocket bodies that have been in GTO for decades, so this might not be the best choice for a mission that needs a guaranteed reentry date.
Another possibility would be to place the satellite directly into the GEO graveyard orbit and let it slowly drift around the Earth. There are plenty of other HEO or Cislunar orbits that are not sensitive to orbital debris requirements and may not be commercially attractive but would work OK for our needs.
So yes, if we had $10 million in our bank account we could buy our way out of a lot of problems that only affect poor people who are lacking options.
73, Dan N8FGV
------ Original Message ------ Received: Fri, 12 Aug 2022 12:28:55 PM EDT
From: Paul Andrews [email protected]
Subject: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite
Yes! Find a commercial GEOsat with room to support an amateur payload. Leverage commercial economics for launch and platform reliability. The commercial operator can donate (tax break) the value of the ham (STEM) capability. Maybe ham bands at 10 GHz and above. Simple bent pipe.
------ Original Message ------ Received: Fri, 12 Aug 2022 11:28:21 AM EDT
From: "Mark Johns, K0JM" [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite
The launch costs, while significant, are beside the point. The biggest issue with HEO satellites are the regulatory challenges. AMSAT and international partners could build and get ready for launch such a satellite within a few years, just as they did with AO-10, AO-13, and AO-40. But they would not get a license to put it into orbit in the current regulatory environment. The technical and financial challenges can be met, but the licensing requirements are killing us.
Sent via AMSAT-BB(a)amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Acceptable Use and Privacy Policies available at https://www.amsat.org/about-amsat/
View archives of this mailing list at https://mailman.amsat.org/hyperkitty/list/[email protected] To unsubscribe send an email to amsat-bb-leave(a)amsat.org Manage all of your AMSAT-NA mailing list preferences at https://mailman.amsat.org
Sent via AMSAT-BB(a)amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Acceptable Use and Privacy Policies available at https://www.amsat.org/about-amsat/
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Sent via AMSAT-BB(a)amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Acceptable Use and Privacy Policies available at https://www.amsat.org/about-amsat/
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Sent via AMSAT-BB(a)amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Acceptable Use and Privacy Policies available at https://www.amsat.org/about-amsat/
View archives of this mailing list at https://mailman.amsat.org/hyperkitty/list/[email protected] To unsubscribe send an email to amsat-bb-leave(a)amsat.org Manage all of your AMSAT-NA mailing list preferences at https://mailman.amsat.org
Hi Mark,
Thanks for your input. Really appreciated.
Hopefully they will announce same asap, but more important for me is that HAMs will be on board. Thanks to the OM’S/ YL in China making this possible for the HAM community worldwide. Bravo Ms X and Mr X in China (also to ARISS and all others doing so for years) for your efforts to make the HAM community an active part of the great space adventure.
All the best, 73
Jean Marc (3B8DU)
On Aug 15, 2022, at 9:50 PM, Mark Johns, K0JM [email protected] wrote:
The Chinese plans for amateur radio on their space station have been widely reported. However, China has not indicated when that operation will commence. -- Mark D. Johns, KØJM AMSAT Ambassador & News Service Editor Brooklyn Park, MN USA EN35hd
"Heaven goes by favor; if it went by merit, you would stay out and your dog would go in." ---Mark Twain
On Mon, Aug 15, 2022 at 12:45 PM Jean Marc Momple [email protected] wrote:
Hi Graham,
Great news, thanks for sharing the info which I am copying to the BB so that all aware.
I take this opportunity to thank you and the coordination team at IARU for the MIR-SAT 1 (MO-112) project, you guys have been instrumental with the success of the mission with advices and suggestions. Thanks to you, Hans and all others.
73
Jean Marc (3B8DU)
On Aug 15, 2022, at 9:35 PM, Graham Shirville [email protected] wrote:
Hi Jean Marc,
Just to give you this info about what the Chinese are up to!
http://www.amsatuk.me.uk/iaru/finished_detail.php?serialnum=857
best wishes
Graham
On 15/08/2022 16:55, Jean Marc Momple wrote:
Jim,
I am like you and don’t like contest type of QSO but chatting with friends around the world and also technical experimentation.
As regards the regulations, your are right that this is probably the biggest hurdle to put our own GEO up there. Just trying to simplify the issues in a nutshell for easy understanding of all: first we will have to find a slot to cover an hemisphere (not cheap), then build the bird and find a launcher (extremely) expensive. More maintain the bird position in space for its life time (say 15 years) and finally park it in the graveyard, this operational part is probably beyond our capabilities and also the risks are huge e.g. (worst case) that we damage a commercial bird up there and all the possible legal and compensation issue.
Therefore, I reiterate that the QO-100 model is the best approach to have a global GEO network or at least one over Americas, AMSAT-DL & QSAR have done it and have the experience, they have the technical design of the transponders, know all possible issues and also now experienced of operating it. Thus we should use the knowledge acquired and copy with pride. Actually if it is Mitsubishi building a commercial GEO (as they build QO-100) for deployment over an interesting slot for us it would be even easier as they built the HAM transponders, contacting them can be an opportunity eventually as they can bridge the gap between us and their customers (just an idea), may be contacting all the GEO satellites manufacturers (not many anyway) is better as they may be able to put us in contact with their customers thus increasing chances of a ride.
I also again appeal to all AMSAT leaders to join force and have a common strategy for HAM in space, whatever the outcome HEO, GEO or LEO it will focus our efforts in one direction and enable to reinforce/keep our presence in space.
Another though, now that our Chinese friends have a space station it would be nice that they have some similar program such as ARISS for students and HAM radio on board, May be any B HAM leader could comment on same.
73
Jean Marc (3B8DU)
On Aug 15, 2022, at 5:37 AM, [email protected] wrote:
I have realized the past few days that our AMSAT group has some really smart Hams! Thanks very much for the information. I have a few more questions. As I said before I would like to have more than a five minute QSO. I am not much of a contester, more a rag chewer. But I am afraid, if I understand most of you correctly, that is probably not going to happen in my life time? I reference K0JM's comments it's not so much the money but the regulatory environment that will stop this. I don't see this getting any easier in the next year, five years, or ten years. Does anybody else see anything different? And throwing in N8FGV's comments about the timing of the launch seems like a long shot as well. I spent a ton of money prior to AO-40 getting equipment ready to go in high hopes of having an AO-13 length run with so much more to do! I was terribly excited about this bird only to have it vanish before my eyes before I really got started. My last question is would a GOLF type satellite have the same obstacles as a Phase IV bird? If so I am probably going to have a-lot of satellite ham gear for sale real soon. Again thanks for your input.
WA5QAP
(licensed in 1966)
---------------------------- Original Message ---------------------------- Subject: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite From: "Daniel Schultz" [email protected] Date: Fri, August 12, 2022 6:57 pm To: "AMSAT-BB" [email protected]
Hosting our payload on a commercial GEO satellite would likely cost more than $10 million if the commercial satellite owner is to be fully compensated for the engineering modifications to their satellite and potential loss of transponder revenue from diverting satellite resources to a non-productive payload over a 15 year design lifetime. Offering a tax break will probably not make up this difference. You might have better luck seeking hosting on a government owned satellite such as the Air Force mission that was discussed by AMSAT a few years ago, but eventually fell through. This is where carefully cultivated personal relationships can come in, if you have any such friends in high places. OSCAR-1 got its launch approved back in 1961 because of a few highly placed hams in the Pentagon, so keep up with your networking and maybe it can happen.
Some orbits are inherently unstable, for example 63 degree Molniya orbits will reliably decay in a few years. The Late, Great OSCAR-13 provides a prime example of this. Their orbital lifetime is heavily sensitive to the time of launch, if AO-13 was launched a few hours earlier it would still be up there, a few hours later it would have reentered a couple of years after launch. This is easy to model in GMAT.
As a secondary payload, we don't get to choose the launch time, our only hope would be to use thrusters to make slight post-launch adjustments so the satellite reenters not too early (as AO-13 did) and not too late. I have been trying to figure out how to do this but have not had any results so far. If we have a dedicated launch all to ourselves we can choose a launch time that meets our requirements.
The NASA Cubesat that was recently grounded was aiming for a GTO launch, which has been mentioned as a possible target for an AMSAT mission because we could possibly get one cheap. Analysis of NORAD tracking data shows a lot of spent rocket bodies that have been in GTO for decades, so this might not be the best choice for a mission that needs a guaranteed reentry date.
Another possibility would be to place the satellite directly into the GEO graveyard orbit and let it slowly drift around the Earth. There are plenty of other HEO or Cislunar orbits that are not sensitive to orbital debris requirements and may not be commercially attractive but would work OK for our needs.
So yes, if we had $10 million in our bank account we could buy our way out of a lot of problems that only affect poor people who are lacking options.
73, Dan N8FGV
------ Original Message ------ Received: Fri, 12 Aug 2022 12:28:55 PM EDT
From: Paul Andrews [email protected]
Subject: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite
Yes! Find a commercial GEOsat with room to support an amateur payload. Leverage commercial economics for launch and platform reliability. The commercial operator can donate (tax break) the value of the ham (STEM) capability. Maybe ham bands at 10 GHz and above. Simple bent pipe.
------ Original Message ------ Received: Fri, 12 Aug 2022 11:28:21 AM EDT
From: "Mark Johns, K0JM" [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite
The launch costs, while significant, are beside the point. The biggest issue with HEO satellites are the regulatory challenges. AMSAT and international partners could build and get ready for launch such a satellite within a few years, just as they did with AO-10, AO-13, and AO-40. But they would not get a license to put it into orbit in the current regulatory environment. The technical and financial challenges can be met, but the licensing requirements are killing us.
Sent via AMSAT-BB(a)amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Acceptable Use and Privacy Policies available at https://www.amsat.org/about-amsat/
View archives of this mailing list at https://mailman.amsat.org/hyperkitty/list/[email protected] To unsubscribe send an email to amsat-bb-leave(a)amsat.org Manage all of your AMSAT-NA mailing list preferences at https://mailman.amsat.org
Sent via AMSAT-BB(a)amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Acceptable Use and Privacy Policies available at https://www.amsat.org/about-amsat/
View archives of this mailing list at https://mailman.amsat.org/hyperkitty/list/[email protected] To unsubscribe send an email to amsat-bb-leave(a)amsat.org Manage all of your AMSAT-NA mailing list preferences at https://mailman.amsat.org
Sent via AMSAT-BB(a)amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Acceptable Use and Privacy Policies available at https://www.amsat.org/about-amsat/
View archives of this mailing list at https://mailman.amsat.org/hyperkitty/list/[email protected] To unsubscribe send an email to amsat-bb-leave(a)amsat.org Manage all of your AMSAT-NA mailing list preferences at https://mailman.amsat.org
Sent via AMSAT-BB(a)amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Acceptable Use and Privacy Policies available at https://www.amsat.org/about-amsat/
View archives of this mailing list at https://mailman.amsat.org/hyperkitty/list/[email protected] To unsubscribe send an email to amsat-bb-leave(a)amsat.org Manage all of your AMSAT-NA mailing list preferences at https://mailman.amsat.org
Perhaps going off on a tangent.. However crazy idea(s)..
Crazy Idea One: Has there been any discission with the Commercial Lunar Payload Services (CLPS) vendors for a possible ride share to the moon? https://www.nasa.gov/content/commercial-lunar-payload-services
Crazy Idea Two: Back in the Apollo program, NASA would have astronauts deploy the Apollo Lunar Surface Experiments Package (ALSEP). When NASA returns to the Moon (i.e., Artemis), what is the possibility of developing a Solar powered Ham Radio Package that would be deployed on the moon surface?
Both crazy ideas would avoid the de-orbiting regulations.
73, Tom K0CFI
-----Original Message----- From: Jean Marc Momple [email protected] Sent: Monday, August 15, 2022 11:05 To: [email protected] Cc: AMSAT-BB [email protected] Subject: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite or GOLF
Hi Mark,
Thanks for your input. Really appreciated.
Hopefully they will announce same asap, but more important for me is that HAMs will be on board. Thanks to the OM'S/ YL in China making this possible for the HAM community worldwide. Bravo Ms X and Mr X in China (also to ARISS and all others doing so for years) for your efforts to make the HAM community an active part of the great space adventure.
All the best, 73
Jean Marc (3B8DU)
On Aug 15, 2022, at 9:50 PM, Mark Johns, K0JM [email protected] wrote:
The Chinese plans for amateur radio on their space station have been widely reported. However, China has not indicated when that operation will commence. -- Mark D. Johns, KØJM AMSAT Ambassador & News Service Editor Brooklyn Park, MN USA EN35hd
"Heaven goes by favor; if it went by merit, you would stay out and your dog would go in." ---Mark Twain
On Mon, Aug 15, 2022 at 12:45 PM Jean Marc Momple [email protected] wrote:
Hi Graham,
Great news, thanks for sharing the info which I am copying to the BB so that all aware.
I take this opportunity to thank you and the coordination team at IARU for the MIR-SAT 1 (MO-112) project, you guys have been instrumental with the success of the mission with advices and suggestions. Thanks to you, Hans and all others.
73
Jean Marc (3B8DU)
On Aug 15, 2022, at 9:35 PM, Graham Shirville [email protected] wrote:
Hi Jean Marc,
Just to give you this info about what the Chinese are up to!
https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww. amsatuk.me.uk%2Fiaru%2Ffinished_detail.php%3Fserialnum%3D857&data =05%7C01%7C%7C28c9813cbbc1476816c308da7ee8bd63%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435 aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637961835330090836%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJ WIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C300 0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=iCUK%2FPNS%2Bw7Effk3RPyYlqYaUCZpIMz8yYkO0jKmz6w% 3D&reserved=0
best wishes
Graham
On 15/08/2022 16:55, Jean Marc Momple wrote:
Jim,
I am like you and don't like contest type of QSO but chatting with friends around the world and also technical experimentation.
As regards the regulations, your are right that this is probably the biggest hurdle to put our own GEO up there. Just trying to simplify the issues in a nutshell for easy understanding of all: first we will have to find a slot to cover an hemisphere (not cheap), then build the bird and find a launcher (extremely) expensive. More maintain the bird position in space for its life time (say 15 years) and finally park it in the graveyard, this operational part is probably beyond our capabilities and also the risks are huge e.g. (worst case) that we damage a commercial bird up there and all the possible legal and compensation issue.
Therefore, I reiterate that the QO-100 model is the best approach to have a global GEO network or at least one over Americas, AMSAT-DL & QSAR have done it and have the experience, they have the technical design of the transponders, know all possible issues and also now experienced of operating it. Thus we should use the knowledge acquired and copy with pride. Actually if it is Mitsubishi building a commercial GEO (as they build QO-100) for deployment over an interesting slot for us it would be even easier as they built the HAM transponders, contacting them can be an opportunity eventually as they can bridge the gap between us and their customers (just an idea), may be contacting all the GEO satellites manufacturers (not many anyway) is better as they may be able to put us in contact with their customers thus increasing chances of a ride.
I also again appeal to all AMSAT leaders to join force and have a common strategy for HAM in space, whatever the outcome HEO, GEO or LEO it will focus our efforts in one direction and enable to reinforce/keep our presence in space.
Another though, now that our Chinese friends have a space station it would be nice that they have some similar program such as ARISS for students and HAM radio on board, May be any B HAM leader could comment on same.
73
Jean Marc (3B8DU)
On Aug 15, 2022, at 5:37 AM, [email protected] wrote:
I have realized the past few days that our AMSAT group has some really smart Hams! Thanks very much for the information. I have a few more questions. As I said before I would like to have more than a five minute QSO. I am not much of a contester, more a rag chewer. But I am afraid, if I understand most of you correctly, that is probably not going to happen in my life time? I reference K0JM's comments it's not so much the money but the regulatory environment that will stop this. I don't see this getting any easier in the next year, five years, or ten years. Does anybody else see anything different? And throwing in N8FGV's comments about the timing of the launch seems like a long shot as well. I spent a ton of money prior to AO-40 getting equipment ready to go in high hopes of having an AO-13 length run with so much more to do! I was terribly excited about this bird only to have it vanish before my eyes before I really got started. My last question is would a GOLF type satellite have the same obstacles as a Phase IV bird? If so I am probably going to have a-lot of satellite ham gear for sale real soon. Again thanks for your input.
WA5QAP
(licensed in 1966)
---------------------------- Original Message
Subject: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite From: "Daniel Schultz" [email protected] Date: Fri, August 12, 2022 6:57 pm To: "AMSAT-BB" [email protected]
Hosting our payload on a commercial GEO satellite would likely cost more than $10 million if the commercial satellite owner is to be fully compensated for the engineering modifications to their satellite and potential loss of transponder revenue from diverting satellite resources to a non-productive payload over a 15 year design lifetime. Offering a tax break will probably not make up this difference. You might have better luck seeking hosting on a government owned satellite such as the Air Force mission that was discussed by AMSAT a few years ago, but eventually fell through. This is where carefully cultivated personal relationships can come in, if you have any such friends in high places. OSCAR-1 got its launch approved back in 1961 because of a few highly placed hams in the Pentagon, so keep up with your networking and maybe it can happen.
Some orbits are inherently unstable, for example 63 degree Molniya orbits will reliably decay in a few years. The Late, Great OSCAR-13 provides a prime example of this. Their orbital lifetime is heavily sensitive to the time of launch, if AO-13 was launched a few hours earlier it would still be up there, a few hours later it would have reentered a couple of years after launch. This is easy to model in GMAT.
As a secondary payload, we don't get to choose the launch time, our only hope would be to use thrusters to make slight post-launch adjustments so the satellite reenters not too early (as AO-13 did) and not too late. I have been trying to figure out how to do this but have not had any results so far. If we have a dedicated launch all to ourselves we can choose a launch time that meets our requirements.
The NASA Cubesat that was recently grounded was aiming for a GTO launch, which has been mentioned as a possible target for an AMSAT mission because we could possibly get one cheap. Analysis of NORAD tracking data shows a lot of spent rocket bodies that have been in GTO for decades, so this might not be the best choice for a mission that needs a guaranteed reentry date.
Another possibility would be to place the satellite directly into the GEO graveyard orbit and let it slowly drift around the Earth. There are plenty of other HEO or Cislunar orbits that are not sensitive to orbital debris requirements and may not be commercially attractive but would work OK for our needs.
So yes, if we had $10 million in our bank account we could buy our way out of a lot of problems that only affect poor people who are lacking options.
73, Dan N8FGV
------ Original Message ------ Received: Fri, 12 Aug 2022 12:28:55 PM EDT
From: Paul Andrews [email protected]
Subject: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite
Yes! Find a commercial GEOsat with room to support an amateur payload. Leverage commercial economics for launch and platform reliability. The commercial operator can donate (tax break) the value of the ham (STEM) capability. Maybe ham bands at 10 GHz and above. Simple bent pipe.
------ Original Message ------ Received: Fri, 12 Aug 2022 11:28:21 AM EDT
From: "Mark Johns, K0JM" [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite
The launch costs, while significant, are beside the point. The biggest issue with HEO satellites are the regulatory challenges. AMSAT and international partners could build and get ready for launch such a satellite within a few years, just as they did with AO-10, AO-13, and AO-40. But they would not get a license to put it into orbit in the current regulatory environment. The technical and financial challenges can be met, but the licensing requirements are killing us.
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-----------------------------------------------------------
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View archives of this mailing list at https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmailman.am... To unsubscribe send an email to amsat-bb-leave(a)amsat.org Manage all of your AMSAT-NA mailing list preferences at https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmailman.am...
yep, crazy enough- I like it 73 Bob W7LRD
On 08/15/2022 1:22 PM Thomas Talley [email protected] wrote:
Perhaps going off on a tangent.. However crazy idea(s)..
Crazy Idea One: Has there been any discission with the Commercial Lunar Payload Services (CLPS) vendors for a possible ride share to the moon? https://www.nasa.gov/content/commercial-lunar-payload-services
Crazy Idea Two: Back in the Apollo program, NASA would have astronauts deploy the Apollo Lunar Surface Experiments Package (ALSEP). When NASA returns to the Moon (i.e., Artemis), what is the possibility of developing a Solar powered Ham Radio Package that would be deployed on the moon surface?
Both crazy ideas would avoid the de-orbiting regulations.
73, Tom K0CFI
-----Original Message----- From: Jean Marc Momple [email protected] Sent: Monday, August 15, 2022 11:05 To: [email protected] Cc: AMSAT-BB [email protected] Subject: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite or GOLF
Hi Mark,
Thanks for your input. Really appreciated.
Hopefully they will announce same asap, but more important for me is that HAMs will be on board. Thanks to the OM'S/ YL in China making this possible for the HAM community worldwide. Bravo Ms X and Mr X in China (also to ARISS and all others doing so for years) for your efforts to make the HAM community an active part of the great space adventure.
All the best, 73
Jean Marc (3B8DU)
On Aug 15, 2022, at 9:50 PM, Mark Johns, K0JM [email protected] wrote:
The Chinese plans for amateur radio on their space station have been widely reported. However, China has not indicated when that operation will commence. -- Mark D. Johns, KØJM AMSAT Ambassador & News Service Editor Brooklyn Park, MN USA EN35hd
"Heaven goes by favor; if it went by merit, you would stay out and your dog would go in." ---Mark Twain
On Mon, Aug 15, 2022 at 12:45 PM Jean Marc Momple [email protected] wrote:
Hi Graham,
Great news, thanks for sharing the info which I am copying to the BB so that all aware.
I take this opportunity to thank you and the coordination team at IARU for the MIR-SAT 1 (MO-112) project, you guys have been instrumental with the success of the mission with advices and suggestions. Thanks to you, Hans and all others.
73
Jean Marc (3B8DU)
On Aug 15, 2022, at 9:35 PM, Graham Shirville [email protected] wrote:
Hi Jean Marc,
Just to give you this info about what the Chinese are up to!
https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww. amsatuk.me.uk%2Fiaru%2Ffinished_detail.php%3Fserialnum%3D857&data =05%7C01%7C%7C28c9813cbbc1476816c308da7ee8bd63%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435 aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637961835330090836%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJ WIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C300 0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=iCUK%2FPNS%2Bw7Effk3RPyYlqYaUCZpIMz8yYkO0jKmz6w% 3D&reserved=0
best wishes
Graham
On 15/08/2022 16:55, Jean Marc Momple wrote:
Jim,
I am like you and don't like contest type of QSO but chatting with friends around the world and also technical experimentation.
As regards the regulations, your are right that this is probably the biggest hurdle to put our own GEO up there. Just trying to simplify the issues in a nutshell for easy understanding of all: first we will have to find a slot to cover an hemisphere (not cheap), then build the bird and find a launcher (extremely) expensive. More maintain the bird position in space for its life time (say 15 years) and finally park it in the graveyard, this operational part is probably beyond our capabilities and also the risks are huge e.g. (worst case) that we damage a commercial bird up there and all the possible legal and compensation issue.
Therefore, I reiterate that the QO-100 model is the best approach to have a global GEO network or at least one over Americas, AMSAT-DL & QSAR have done it and have the experience, they have the technical design of the transponders, know all possible issues and also now experienced of operating it. Thus we should use the knowledge acquired and copy with pride. Actually if it is Mitsubishi building a commercial GEO (as they build QO-100) for deployment over an interesting slot for us it would be even easier as they built the HAM transponders, contacting them can be an opportunity eventually as they can bridge the gap between us and their customers (just an idea), may be contacting all the GEO satellites manufacturers (not many anyway) is better as they may be able to put us in contact with their customers thus increasing chances of a ride.
I also again appeal to all AMSAT leaders to join force and have a common strategy for HAM in space, whatever the outcome HEO, GEO or LEO it will focus our efforts in one direction and enable to reinforce/keep our presence in space.
Another though, now that our Chinese friends have a space station it would be nice that they have some similar program such as ARISS for students and HAM radio on board, May be any B HAM leader could comment on same.
73
Jean Marc (3B8DU)
On Aug 15, 2022, at 5:37 AM, [email protected] wrote:
I have realized the past few days that our AMSAT group has some really smart Hams! Thanks very much for the information. I have a few more questions. As I said before I would like to have more than a five minute QSO. I am not much of a contester, more a rag chewer. But I am afraid, if I understand most of you correctly, that is probably not going to happen in my life time? I reference K0JM's comments it's not so much the money but the regulatory environment that will stop this. I don't see this getting any easier in the next year, five years, or ten years. Does anybody else see anything different? And throwing in N8FGV's comments about the timing of the launch seems like a long shot as well. I spent a ton of money prior to AO-40 getting equipment ready to go in high hopes of having an AO-13 length run with so much more to do! I was terribly excited about this bird only to have it vanish before my eyes before I really got started. My last question is would a GOLF type satellite have the same obstacles as a Phase IV bird? If so I am probably going to have a-lot of satellite ham gear for sale real soon. Again thanks for your input.
WA5QAP
(licensed in 1966)
---------------------------- Original Message
Subject: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite From: "Daniel Schultz" [email protected] Date: Fri, August 12, 2022 6:57 pm To: "AMSAT-BB" [email protected]
Hosting our payload on a commercial GEO satellite would likely cost more than $10 million if the commercial satellite owner is to be fully compensated for the engineering modifications to their satellite and potential loss of transponder revenue from diverting satellite resources to a non-productive payload over a 15 year design lifetime. Offering a tax break will probably not make up this difference. You might have better luck seeking hosting on a government owned satellite such as the Air Force mission that was discussed by AMSAT a few years ago, but eventually fell through. This is where carefully cultivated personal relationships can come in, if you have any such friends in high places. OSCAR-1 got its launch approved back in 1961 because of a few highly placed hams in the Pentagon, so keep up with your networking and maybe it can happen.
Some orbits are inherently unstable, for example 63 degree Molniya orbits will reliably decay in a few years. The Late, Great OSCAR-13 provides a prime example of this. Their orbital lifetime is heavily sensitive to the time of launch, if AO-13 was launched a few hours earlier it would still be up there, a few hours later it would have reentered a couple of years after launch. This is easy to model in GMAT.
As a secondary payload, we don't get to choose the launch time, our only hope would be to use thrusters to make slight post-launch adjustments so the satellite reenters not too early (as AO-13 did) and not too late. I have been trying to figure out how to do this but have not had any results so far. If we have a dedicated launch all to ourselves we can choose a launch time that meets our requirements.
The NASA Cubesat that was recently grounded was aiming for a GTO launch, which has been mentioned as a possible target for an AMSAT mission because we could possibly get one cheap. Analysis of NORAD tracking data shows a lot of spent rocket bodies that have been in GTO for decades, so this might not be the best choice for a mission that needs a guaranteed reentry date.
Another possibility would be to place the satellite directly into the GEO graveyard orbit and let it slowly drift around the Earth. There are plenty of other HEO or Cislunar orbits that are not sensitive to orbital debris requirements and may not be commercially attractive but would work OK for our needs.
So yes, if we had $10 million in our bank account we could buy our way out of a lot of problems that only affect poor people who are lacking options.
73, Dan N8FGV
------ Original Message ------ Received: Fri, 12 Aug 2022 12:28:55 PM EDT
From: Paul Andrews [email protected]
Subject: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite
Yes! Find a commercial GEOsat with room to support an amateur payload. Leverage commercial economics for launch and platform reliability. The commercial operator can donate (tax break) the value of the ham (STEM) capability. Maybe ham bands at 10 GHz and above. Simple bent pipe.
------ Original Message ------ Received: Fri, 12 Aug 2022 11:28:21 AM EDT
From: "Mark Johns, K0JM" [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite
The launch costs, while significant, are beside the point. The biggest issue with HEO satellites are the regulatory challenges. AMSAT and international partners could build and get ready for launch such a satellite within a few years, just as they did with AO-10, AO-13, and AO-40. But they would not get a license to put it into orbit in the current regulatory environment. The technical and financial challenges can be met, but the licensing requirements are killing us.
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Has anyone had one of these M2 PS-70CM relays stop working? I can see the coil, my 2 meter one is working, but the 70 cm has stopped switching. Anyone have any idea what type of relay it is inside?
Tom K8TB
Hi Tom. I believe AMSAT-DL currently has a proposal at ESA for an amateur payload in Lunar orbit as a rideshare. David G0MRF
-----Original Message----- From: Thomas Talley [email protected] To: AMSAT-BB [email protected] Sent: Mon, 15 Aug 2022 20:22 Subject: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite or GOLF
Perhaps going off on a tangent.. However crazy idea(s)..
Crazy Idea One: Has there been any discission with the Commercial Lunar Payload Services (CLPS) vendors for a possible ride share to the moon? https://www.nasa.gov/content/commercial-lunar-payload-services
Crazy Idea Two: Back in the Apollo program, NASA would have astronauts deploy the Apollo Lunar Surface Experiments Package (ALSEP). When NASA returns to the Moon (i.e., Artemis), what is the possibility of developing a Solar powered Ham Radio Package that would be deployed on the moon surface?
Both crazy ideas would avoid the de-orbiting regulations.
73, Tom K0CFI
-----Original Message----- From: Jean Marc Momple [email protected] Sent: Monday, August 15, 2022 11:05 To: [email protected] Cc: AMSAT-BB [email protected] Subject: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite or GOLF
Hi Mark,
Thanks for your input. Really appreciated.
Hopefully they will announce same asap, but more important for me is that HAMs will be on board. Thanks to the OM'S/ YL in China making this possible for the HAM community worldwide. Bravo Ms X and Mr X in China (also to ARISS and all others doing so for years) for your efforts to make the HAM community an active part of the great space adventure.
All the best, 73
Jean Marc (3B8DU)
On Aug 15, 2022, at 9:50 PM, Mark Johns, K0JM [email protected] wrote:
The Chinese plans for amateur radio on their space station have been widely reported. However, China has not indicated when that operation will commence. -- Mark D. Johns, KØJM AMSAT Ambassador & News Service Editor Brooklyn Park, MN USA EN35hd
"Heaven goes by favor; if it went by merit, you would stay out and your dog would go in." ---Mark Twain
On Mon, Aug 15, 2022 at 12:45 PM Jean Marc Momple [email protected] wrote:
Hi Graham,
Great news, thanks for sharing the info which I am copying to the BB so that all aware.
I take this opportunity to thank you and the coordination team at IARU for the MIR-SAT 1 (MO-112) project, you guys have been instrumental with the success of the mission with advices and suggestions. Thanks to you, Hans and all others.
73
Jean Marc (3B8DU)
On Aug 15, 2022, at 9:35 PM, Graham Shirville [email protected] wrote:
Hi Jean Marc,
Just to give you this info about what the Chinese are up to!
https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww. amsatuk.me.uk%2Fiaru%2Ffinished_detail.php%3Fserialnum%3D857&data =05%7C01%7C%7C28c9813cbbc1476816c308da7ee8bd63%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435 aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637961835330090836%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJ WIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C300 0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=iCUK%2FPNS%2Bw7Effk3RPyYlqYaUCZpIMz8yYkO0jKmz6w% 3D&reserved=0
best wishes
Graham
On 15/08/2022 16:55, Jean Marc Momple wrote:
Jim,
I am like you and don't like contest type of QSO but chatting with friends around the world and also technical experimentation.
As regards the regulations, your are right that this is probably the biggest hurdle to put our own GEO up there. Just trying to simplify the issues in a nutshell for easy understanding of all: first we will have to find a slot to cover an hemisphere (not cheap), then build the bird and find a launcher (extremely) expensive. More maintain the bird position in space for its life time (say 15 years) and finally park it in the graveyard, this operational part is probably beyond our capabilities and also the risks are huge e.g. (worst case) that we damage a commercial bird up there and all the possible legal and compensation issue.
Therefore, I reiterate that the QO-100 model is the best approach to have a global GEO network or at least one over Americas, AMSAT-DL & QSAR have done it and have the experience, they have the technical design of the transponders, know all possible issues and also now experienced of operating it. Thus we should use the knowledge acquired and copy with pride. Actually if it is Mitsubishi building a commercial GEO (as they build QO-100) for deployment over an interesting slot for us it would be even easier as they built the HAM transponders, contacting them can be an opportunity eventually as they can bridge the gap between us and their customers (just an idea), may be contacting all the GEO satellites manufacturers (not many anyway) is better as they may be able to put us in contact with their customers thus increasing chances of a ride.
I also again appeal to all AMSAT leaders to join force and have a common strategy for HAM in space, whatever the outcome HEO, GEO or LEO it will focus our efforts in one direction and enable to reinforce/keep our presence in space.
Another though, now that our Chinese friends have a space station it would be nice that they have some similar program such as ARISS for students and HAM radio on board, May be any B HAM leader could comment on same.
73
Jean Marc (3B8DU)
On Aug 15, 2022, at 5:37 AM, [email protected] wrote:
I have realized the past few days that our AMSAT group has some really smart Hams! Thanks very much for the information. I have a few more questions. As I said before I would like to have more than a five minute QSO. I am not much of a contester, more a rag chewer. But I am afraid, if I understand most of you correctly, that is probably not going to happen in my life time? I reference K0JM's comments it's not so much the money but the regulatory environment that will stop this. I don't see this getting any easier in the next year, five years, or ten years. Does anybody else see anything different? And throwing in N8FGV's comments about the timing of the launch seems like a long shot as well. I spent a ton of money prior to AO-40 getting equipment ready to go in high hopes of having an AO-13 length run with so much more to do! I was terribly excited about this bird only to have it vanish before my eyes before I really got started. My last question is would a GOLF type satellite have the same obstacles as a Phase IV bird? If so I am probably going to have a-lot of satellite ham gear for sale real soon. Again thanks for your input.
WA5QAP
(licensed in 1966)
---------------------------- Original Message
Subject: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite From: "Daniel Schultz" [email protected] Date: Fri, August 12, 2022 6:57 pm To: "AMSAT-BB" [email protected]
Hosting our payload on a commercial GEO satellite would likely cost more than $10 million if the commercial satellite owner is to be fully compensated for the engineering modifications to their satellite and potential loss of transponder revenue from diverting satellite resources to a non-productive payload over a 15 year design lifetime. Offering a tax break will probably not make up this difference. You might have better luck seeking hosting on a government owned satellite such as the Air Force mission that was discussed by AMSAT a few years ago, but eventually fell through. This is where carefully cultivated personal relationships can come in, if you have any such friends in high places. OSCAR-1 got its launch approved back in 1961 because of a few highly placed hams in the Pentagon, so keep up with your networking and maybe it can happen.
Some orbits are inherently unstable, for example 63 degree Molniya orbits will reliably decay in a few years. The Late, Great OSCAR-13 provides a prime example of this. Their orbital lifetime is heavily sensitive to the time of launch, if AO-13 was launched a few hours earlier it would still be up there, a few hours later it would have reentered a couple of years after launch. This is easy to model in GMAT.
As a secondary payload, we don't get to choose the launch time, our only hope would be to use thrusters to make slight post-launch adjustments so the satellite reenters not too early (as AO-13 did) and not too late. I have been trying to figure out how to do this but have not had any results so far. If we have a dedicated launch all to ourselves we can choose a launch time that meets our requirements.
The NASA Cubesat that was recently grounded was aiming for a GTO launch, which has been mentioned as a possible target for an AMSAT mission because we could possibly get one cheap. Analysis of NORAD tracking data shows a lot of spent rocket bodies that have been in GTO for decades, so this might not be the best choice for a mission that needs a guaranteed reentry date.
Another possibility would be to place the satellite directly into the GEO graveyard orbit and let it slowly drift around the Earth. There are plenty of other HEO or Cislunar orbits that are not sensitive to orbital debris requirements and may not be commercially attractive but would work OK for our needs.
So yes, if we had $10 million in our bank account we could buy our way out of a lot of problems that only affect poor people who are lacking options.
73, Dan N8FGV
------ Original Message ------ Received: Fri, 12 Aug 2022 12:28:55 PM EDT
From: Paul Andrews [email protected]
Subject: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite
Yes! Find a commercial GEOsat with room to support an amateur payload. Leverage commercial economics for launch and platform reliability. The commercial operator can donate (tax break) the value of the ham (STEM) capability. Maybe ham bands at 10 GHz and above. Simple bent pipe.
------ Original Message ------ Received: Fri, 12 Aug 2022 11:28:21 AM EDT
From: "Mark Johns, K0JM" [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite
The launch costs, while significant, are beside the point. The biggest issue with HEO satellites are the regulatory challenges. AMSAT and international partners could build and get ready for launch such a satellite within a few years, just as they did with AO-10, AO-13, and AO-40. But they would not get a license to put it into orbit in the current regulatory environment. The technical and financial challenges can be met, but the licensing requirements are killing us.
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Hi David,
yes, we did submit such a proposal but unfortunately ESA did not move ahead with it.
Maybe the proposal can be reused. If anyone is interested please send an Email to me.
Kind regards
Matthias
www.dd1us.dehttp://www.dd1us.de
Von: David G0MRF via AMSAT-BB [email protected] Gesendet: Dienstag, 16. August 2022 00:15 An: [email protected]; [email protected] Betreff: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite or GOLF
Hi Tom.
I believe AMSAT-DL currently has a proposal at ESA for an amateur payload in Lunar orbit as a rideshare.
David G0MRF
-----Original Message----- From: Thomas Talley <[email protected]mailto:[email protected]> To: AMSAT-BB <[email protected]mailto:[email protected]> Sent: Mon, 15 Aug 2022 20:22 Subject: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite or GOLF Perhaps going off on a tangent.. However crazy idea(s)..
Crazy Idea One: Has there been any discission with the Commercial Lunar Payload Services (CLPS) vendors for a possible ride share to the moon? https://www.nasa.gov/content/commercial-lunar-payload-services
Crazy Idea Two: Back in the Apollo program, NASA would have astronauts deploy the Apollo Lunar Surface Experiments Package (ALSEP). When NASA returns to the Moon (i.e., Artemis), what is the possibility of developing a Solar powered Ham Radio Package that would be deployed on the moon surface?
Both crazy ideas would avoid the de-orbiting regulations.
73, Tom K0CFI
-----Original Message----- From: Jean Marc Momple <[email protected]mailto:[email protected]> Sent: Monday, August 15, 2022 11:05 To: [email protected]mailto:[email protected] Cc: AMSAT-BB <[email protected]mailto:[email protected]> Subject: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite or GOLF
Hi Mark,
Thanks for your input. Really appreciated.
Hopefully they will announce same asap, but more important for me is that HAMs will be on board. Thanks to the OM'S/ YL in China making this possible for the HAM community worldwide. Bravo Ms X and Mr X in China (also to ARISS and all others doing so for years) for your efforts to make the HAM community an active part of the great space adventure.
All the best, 73
Jean Marc (3B8DU)
On Aug 15, 2022, at 9:50 PM, Mark Johns, K0JM <[email protected]mailto:[email protected]> wrote:
The Chinese plans for amateur radio on their space station have been widely reported. However, China has not indicated when that operation will commence. -- Mark D. Johns, KØJM AMSAT Ambassador & News Service Editor Brooklyn Park, MN USA EN35hd
"Heaven goes by favor; if it went by merit, you would stay out and your dog would go in." ---Mark Twain
On Mon, Aug 15, 2022 at 12:45 PM Jean Marc Momple <[email protected]mailto:[email protected]> wrote:
Hi Graham,
Great news, thanks for sharing the info which I am copying to the BB so that all aware.
I take this opportunity to thank you and the coordination team at IARU for the MIR-SAT 1 (MO-112) project, you guys have been instrumental with the success of the mission with advices and suggestions. Thanks to you, Hans and all others.
73
Jean Marc (3B8DU)
On Aug 15, 2022, at 9:35 PM, Graham Shirville <[email protected]mailto:[email protected]> wrote:
Hi Jean Marc,
Just to give you this info about what the Chinese are up to!
https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww. amsatuk.me.uk%2Fiaru%2Ffinished_detail.php%3Fserialnum%3D857&data =05%7C01%7C%7C28c9813cbbc1476816c308da7ee8bd63%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435 aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637961835330090836%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJ WIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C300 0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=iCUK%2FPNS%2Bw7Effk3RPyYlqYaUCZpIMz8yYkO0jKmz6w% 3D&reserved=0
best wishes
Graham
On 15/08/2022 16:55, Jean Marc Momple wrote:
Jim,
I am like you and don't like contest type of QSO but chatting with friends around the world and also technical experimentation.
As regards the regulations, your are right that this is probably the biggest hurdle to put our own GEO up there. Just trying to simplify the issues in a nutshell for easy understanding of all: first we will have to find a slot to cover an hemisphere (not cheap), then build the bird and find a launcher (extremely) expensive. More maintain the bird position in space for its life time (say 15 years) and finally park it in the graveyard, this operational part is probably beyond our capabilities and also the risks are huge e.g. (worst case) that we damage a commercial bird up there and all the possible legal and compensation issue.
Therefore, I reiterate that the QO-100 model is the best approach to have a global GEO network or at least one over Americas, AMSAT-DL & QSAR have done it and have the experience, they have the technical design of the transponders, know all possible issues and also now experienced of operating it. Thus we should use the knowledge acquired and copy with pride. Actually if it is Mitsubishi building a commercial GEO (as they build QO-100) for deployment over an interesting slot for us it would be even easier as they built the HAM transponders, contacting them can be an opportunity eventually as they can bridge the gap between us and their customers (just an idea), may be contacting all the GEO satellites manufacturers (not many anyway) is better as they may be able to put us in contact with their customers thus increasing chances of a ride.
I also again appeal to all AMSAT leaders to join force and have a common strategy for HAM in space, whatever the outcome HEO, GEO or LEO it will focus our efforts in one direction and enable to reinforce/keep our presence in space.
Another though, now that our Chinese friends have a space station it would be nice that they have some similar program such as ARISS for students and HAM radio on board, May be any B HAM leader could comment on same.
73
Jean Marc (3B8DU)
On Aug 15, 2022, at 5:37 AM, [email protected]mailto:[email protected] wrote:
I have realized the past few days that our AMSAT group has some really smart Hams! Thanks very much for the information. I have a few more questions. As I said before I would like to have more than a five minute QSO. I am not much of a contester, more a rag chewer. But I am afraid, if I understand most of you correctly, that is probably not going to happen in my life time? I reference K0JM's comments it's not so much the money but the regulatory environment that will stop this. I don't see this getting any easier in the next year, five years, or ten years. Does anybody else see anything different? And throwing in N8FGV's comments about the timing of the launch seems like a long shot as well. I spent a ton of money prior to AO-40 getting equipment ready to go in high hopes of having an AO-13 length run with so much more to do! I was terribly excited about this bird only to have it vanish before my eyes before I really got started. My last question is would a GOLF type satellite have the same obstacles as a Phase IV bird? If so I am probably going to have a-lot of satellite ham gear for sale real soon. Again thanks for your input.
WA5QAP
(licensed in 1966)
---------------------------- Original Message
Subject: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite From: "Daniel Schultz" <[email protected]mailto:[email protected]> Date: Fri, August 12, 2022 6:57 pm To: "AMSAT-BB" <[email protected]mailto:[email protected]>
Hosting our payload on a commercial GEO satellite would likely cost more than $10 million if the commercial satellite owner is to be fully compensated for the engineering modifications to their satellite and potential loss of transponder revenue from diverting satellite resources to a non-productive payload over a 15 year design lifetime. Offering a tax break will probably not make up this difference. You might have better luck seeking hosting on a government owned satellite such as the Air Force mission that was discussed by AMSAT a few years ago, but eventually fell through. This is where carefully cultivated personal relationships can come in, if you have any such friends in high places. OSCAR-1 got its launch approved back in 1961 because of a few highly placed hams in the Pentagon, so keep up with your networking and maybe it can happen.
Some orbits are inherently unstable, for example 63 degree Molniya orbits will reliably decay in a few years. The Late, Great OSCAR-13 provides a prime example of this. Their orbital lifetime is heavily sensitive to the time of launch, if AO-13 was launched a few hours earlier it would still be up there, a few hours later it would have reentered a couple of years after launch. This is easy to model in GMAT.
As a secondary payload, we don't get to choose the launch time, our only hope would be to use thrusters to make slight post-launch adjustments so the satellite reenters not too early (as AO-13 did) and not too late. I have been trying to figure out how to do this but have not had any results so far. If we have a dedicated launch all to ourselves we can choose a launch time that meets our requirements.
The NASA Cubesat that was recently grounded was aiming for a GTO launch, which has been mentioned as a possible target for an AMSAT mission because we could possibly get one cheap. Analysis of NORAD tracking data shows a lot of spent rocket bodies that have been in GTO for decades, so this might not be the best choice for a mission that needs a guaranteed reentry date.
Another possibility would be to place the satellite directly into the GEO graveyard orbit and let it slowly drift around the Earth. There are plenty of other HEO or Cislunar orbits that are not sensitive to orbital debris requirements and may not be commercially attractive but would work OK for our needs.
So yes, if we had $10 million in our bank account we could buy our way out of a lot of problems that only affect poor people who are lacking options.
73, Dan N8FGV
------ Original Message ------ Received: Fri, 12 Aug 2022 12:28:55 PM EDT
From: Paul Andrews <[email protected]mailto:[email protected]>
Subject: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite
Yes! Find a commercial GEOsat with room to support an amateur payload. Leverage commercial economics for launch and platform reliability. The commercial operator can donate (tax break) the value of the ham (STEM) capability. Maybe ham bands at 10 GHz and above. Simple bent pipe.
------ Original Message ------ Received: Fri, 12 Aug 2022 11:28:21 AM EDT
From: "Mark Johns, K0JM" <[email protected]mailto:[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite
The launch costs, while significant, are beside the point. The biggest issue with HEO satellites are the regulatory challenges. AMSAT and international partners could build and get ready for launch such a satellite within a few years, just as they did with AO-10, AO-13, and AO-40. But they would not get a license to put it into orbit in the current regulatory environment. The technical and financial challenges can be met, but the licensing requirements are killing us.
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Just an observation...
Looks like there will be an off the shelve "five and dime" radio in the near future:
New ICOM IC-905 VHF/UHF/uW transceiver http://www.southgatearc.org/news/2022/august/icom-ic905-transceiver.htm#.YwE...
Nice introduction video.
YMMV
Tom K0CFI
From: Matthias Bopp [email protected] Sent: Monday, August 15, 2022 3:19 PM To: David G0MRF [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected] Subject: AW: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite or GOLF
Hi David,
yes, we did submit such a proposal but unfortunately ESA did not move ahead with it.
Maybe the proposal can be reused. If anyone is interested please send an Email to me.
Kind regards
Matthias
Von: David G0MRF via AMSAT-BB <[email protected]mailto:[email protected]> Gesendet: Dienstag, 16. August 2022 00:15 An: [email protected]mailto:[email protected]; [email protected]mailto:[email protected] Betreff: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite or GOLF
Hi Tom.
I believe AMSAT-DL currently has a proposal at ESA for an amateur payload in Lunar orbit as a rideshare.
David G0MRF
-----Original Message----- From: Thomas Talley <[email protected]mailto:[email protected]> To: AMSAT-BB <[email protected]mailto:[email protected]> Sent: Mon, 15 Aug 2022 20:22 Subject: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite or GOLF Perhaps going off on a tangent.. However crazy idea(s)..
Crazy Idea One: Has there been any discission with the Commercial Lunar Payload Services (CLPS) vendors for a possible ride share to the moon? https://www.nasa.gov/content/commercial-lunar-payload-serviceshttps://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.nasa.gov%2Fcontent%2Fcommercial-lunar-payload-services&data=05%7C01%7C%7Ce8a86e86d9fb4f2e0e3f08da7f0c327b%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637961987650423661%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=x5lU16o1SmkqACqvjmZYJVOkKnGE%2FOlCM79DvQcB6b8%3D&reserved=0
Crazy Idea Two: Back in the Apollo program, NASA would have astronauts deploy the Apollo Lunar Surface Experiments Package (ALSEP). When NASA returns to the Moon (i.e., Artemis), what is the possibility of developing a Solar powered Ham Radio Package that would be deployed on the moon surface?
Both crazy ideas would avoid the de-orbiting regulations.
73, Tom K0CFI
-----Original Message----- From: Jean Marc Momple <[email protected]mailto:[email protected]> Sent: Monday, August 15, 2022 11:05 To: [email protected]mailto:[email protected] Cc: AMSAT-BB <[email protected]mailto:[email protected]> Subject: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite or GOLF
Hi Mark,
Thanks for your input. Really appreciated.
Hopefully they will announce same asap, but more important for me is that HAMs will be on board. Thanks to the OM'S/ YL in China making this possible for the HAM community worldwide. Bravo Ms X and Mr X in China (also to ARISS and all others doing so for years) for your efforts to make the HAM community an active part of the great space adventure.
All the best, 73
Jean Marc (3B8DU)
On Aug 15, 2022, at 9:50 PM, Mark Johns, K0JM <[email protected]mailto:[email protected]> wrote:
The Chinese plans for amateur radio on their space station have been widely reported. However, China has not indicated when that operation will commence. -- Mark D. Johns, KØJM AMSAT Ambassador & News Service Editor Brooklyn Park, MN USA EN35hd
"Heaven goes by favor; if it went by merit, you would stay out and your dog would go in." ---Mark Twain
On Mon, Aug 15, 2022 at 12:45 PM Jean Marc Momple <[email protected]mailto:[email protected]> wrote:
Hi Graham,
Great news, thanks for sharing the info which I am copying to the BB so that all aware.
I take this opportunity to thank you and the coordination team at IARU for the MIR-SAT 1 (MO-112) project, you guys have been instrumental with the success of the mission with advices and suggestions. Thanks to you, Hans and all others.
73
Jean Marc (3B8DU)
On Aug 15, 2022, at 9:35 PM, Graham Shirville <[email protected]mailto:[email protected]> wrote:
Hi Jean Marc,
Just to give you this info about what the Chinese are up to!
https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww. amsatuk.me.uk%2Fiaru%2Ffinished_detail.php%3Fserialnum%3D857&data =05%7C01%7C%7C28c9813cbbc1476816c308da7ee8bd63%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435 aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637961835330090836%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJ WIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C300 0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=iCUK%2FPNS%2Bw7Effk3RPyYlqYaUCZpIMz8yYkO0jKmz6w% 3D&reserved=0
best wishes
Graham
On 15/08/2022 16:55, Jean Marc Momple wrote:
Jim,
I am like you and don't like contest type of QSO but chatting with friends around the world and also technical experimentation.
As regards the regulations, your are right that this is probably the biggest hurdle to put our own GEO up there. Just trying to simplify the issues in a nutshell for easy understanding of all: first we will have to find a slot to cover an hemisphere (not cheap), then build the bird and find a launcher (extremely) expensive. More maintain the bird position in space for its life time (say 15 years) and finally park it in the graveyard, this operational part is probably beyond our capabilities and also the risks are huge e.g. (worst case) that we damage a commercial bird up there and all the possible legal and compensation issue.
Therefore, I reiterate that the QO-100 model is the best approach to have a global GEO network or at least one over Americas, AMSAT-DL & QSAR have done it and have the experience, they have the technical design of the transponders, know all possible issues and also now experienced of operating it. Thus we should use the knowledge acquired and copy with pride. Actually if it is Mitsubishi building a commercial GEO (as they build QO-100) for deployment over an interesting slot for us it would be even easier as they built the HAM transponders, contacting them can be an opportunity eventually as they can bridge the gap between us and their customers (just an idea), may be contacting all the GEO satellites manufacturers (not many anyway) is better as they may be able to put us in contact with their customers thus increasing chances of a ride.
I also again appeal to all AMSAT leaders to join force and have a common strategy for HAM in space, whatever the outcome HEO, GEO or LEO it will focus our efforts in one direction and enable to reinforce/keep our presence in space.
Another though, now that our Chinese friends have a space station it would be nice that they have some similar program such as ARISS for students and HAM radio on board, May be any B HAM leader could comment on same.
73
Jean Marc (3B8DU)
On Aug 15, 2022, at 5:37 AM, [email protected]mailto:[email protected] wrote:
I have realized the past few days that our AMSAT group has some really smart Hams! Thanks very much for the information. I have a few more questions. As I said before I would like to have more than a five minute QSO. I am not much of a contester, more a rag chewer. But I am afraid, if I understand most of you correctly, that is probably not going to happen in my life time? I reference K0JM's comments it's not so much the money but the regulatory environment that will stop this. I don't see this getting any easier in the next year, five years, or ten years. Does anybody else see anything different? And throwing in N8FGV's comments about the timing of the launch seems like a long shot as well. I spent a ton of money prior to AO-40 getting equipment ready to go in high hopes of having an AO-13 length run with so much more to do! I was terribly excited about this bird only to have it vanish before my eyes before I really got started. My last question is would a GOLF type satellite have the same obstacles as a Phase IV bird? If so I am probably going to have a-lot of satellite ham gear for sale real soon. Again thanks for your input.
WA5QAP
(licensed in 1966)
---------------------------- Original Message
Subject: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite From: "Daniel Schultz" <[email protected]mailto:[email protected]> Date: Fri, August 12, 2022 6:57 pm To: "AMSAT-BB" <[email protected]mailto:[email protected]>
Hosting our payload on a commercial GEO satellite would likely cost more than $10 million if the commercial satellite owner is to be fully compensated for the engineering modifications to their satellite and potential loss of transponder revenue from diverting satellite resources to a non-productive payload over a 15 year design lifetime. Offering a tax break will probably not make up this difference. You might have better luck seeking hosting on a government owned satellite such as the Air Force mission that was discussed by AMSAT a few years ago, but eventually fell through. This is where carefully cultivated personal relationships can come in, if you have any such friends in high places. OSCAR-1 got its launch approved back in 1961 because of a few highly placed hams in the Pentagon, so keep up with your networking and maybe it can happen.
Some orbits are inherently unstable, for example 63 degree Molniya orbits will reliably decay in a few years. The Late, Great OSCAR-13 provides a prime example of this. Their orbital lifetime is heavily sensitive to the time of launch, if AO-13 was launched a few hours earlier it would still be up there, a few hours later it would have reentered a couple of years after launch. This is easy to model in GMAT.
As a secondary payload, we don't get to choose the launch time, our only hope would be to use thrusters to make slight post-launch adjustments so the satellite reenters not too early (as AO-13 did) and not too late. I have been trying to figure out how to do this but have not had any results so far. If we have a dedicated launch all to ourselves we can choose a launch time that meets our requirements.
The NASA Cubesat that was recently grounded was aiming for a GTO launch, which has been mentioned as a possible target for an AMSAT mission because we could possibly get one cheap. Analysis of NORAD tracking data shows a lot of spent rocket bodies that have been in GTO for decades, so this might not be the best choice for a mission that needs a guaranteed reentry date.
Another possibility would be to place the satellite directly into the GEO graveyard orbit and let it slowly drift around the Earth. There are plenty of other HEO or Cislunar orbits that are not sensitive to orbital debris requirements and may not be commercially attractive but would work OK for our needs.
So yes, if we had $10 million in our bank account we could buy our way out of a lot of problems that only affect poor people who are lacking options.
73, Dan N8FGV
------ Original Message ------ Received: Fri, 12 Aug 2022 12:28:55 PM EDT
From: Paul Andrews <[email protected]mailto:[email protected]>
Subject: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite
Yes! Find a commercial GEOsat with room to support an amateur payload. Leverage commercial economics for launch and platform reliability. The commercial operator can donate (tax break) the value of the ham (STEM) capability. Maybe ham bands at 10 GHz and above. Simple bent pipe.
------ Original Message ------ Received: Fri, 12 Aug 2022 11:28:21 AM EDT
From: "Mark Johns, K0JM" <[email protected]mailto:[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite
The launch costs, while significant, are beside the point. The biggest issue with HEO satellites are the regulatory challenges. AMSAT and international partners could build and get ready for launch such a satellite within a few years, just as they did with AO-10, AO-13, and AO-40. But they would not get a license to put it into orbit in the current regulatory environment. The technical and financial challenges can be met, but the licensing requirements are killing us.
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Let Icom host a GEO sat transponder now ! This will exponentially increase the sales figure for this exciting new radio and future versions. Bernard KC9SGV
On Sat, Aug 20, 2022 at 11:02 AM Thomas Talley [email protected] wrote:
Just an observation…
Looks like there will be an off the shelve “five and dime” radio in the near future:
New ICOM IC-905 VHF/UHF/uW transceiver
http://www.southgatearc.org/news/2022/august/icom-ic905-transceiver.htm#.YwE...
Nice introduction video.
YMMV
Tom K0CFI
*From:* Matthias Bopp [email protected] *Sent:* Monday, August 15, 2022 3:19 PM *To:* David G0MRF [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected] *Subject:* AW: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite or GOLF
Hi David,
yes, we did submit such a proposal but unfortunately ESA did not move ahead with it.
Maybe the proposal can be reused. If anyone is interested please send an Email to me.
Kind regards
Matthias
*Von:* David G0MRF via AMSAT-BB [email protected] *Gesendet:* Dienstag, 16. August 2022 00:15 *An:* [email protected]; [email protected] *Betreff:* [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite or GOLF
Hi Tom.
I believe AMSAT-DL currently has a proposal at ESA for an amateur payload in Lunar orbit as a rideshare.
David G0MRF
-----Original Message----- From: Thomas Talley [email protected] To: AMSAT-BB [email protected] Sent: Mon, 15 Aug 2022 20:22 Subject: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite or GOLF
Perhaps going off on a tangent.. However crazy idea(s)..
Crazy Idea One: Has there been any discission with the Commercial Lunar Payload Services (CLPS) vendors for a possible ride share to the moon?
https://www.nasa.gov/content/commercial-lunar-payload-services https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.nasa.gov%2Fcontent%2Fcommercial-lunar-payload-services&data=05%7C01%7C%7Ce8a86e86d9fb4f2e0e3f08da7f0c327b%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637961987650423661%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=x5lU16o1SmkqACqvjmZYJVOkKnGE%2FOlCM79DvQcB6b8%3D&reserved=0
Crazy Idea Two: Back in the Apollo program, NASA would have astronauts deploy the Apollo Lunar Surface Experiments Package (ALSEP). When NASA returns to the Moon (i.e., Artemis), what is the possibility of developing a Solar powered Ham Radio Package that would be deployed on the moon surface?
Both crazy ideas would avoid the de-orbiting regulations.
73, Tom K0CFI
-----Original Message-----
From: Jean Marc Momple [email protected]
Sent: Monday, August 15, 2022 11:05
Cc: AMSAT-BB [email protected]
Subject: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite or GOLF
Hi Mark,
Thanks for your input. Really appreciated.
Hopefully they will announce same asap, but more important for me is that HAMs will be on board. Thanks to the OM'S/ YL in China making this possible for the HAM community worldwide. Bravo Ms X and Mr X in China (also to ARISS and all others doing so for years) for your efforts to make the HAM community an active part of the great space adventure.
All the best, 73
Jean Marc (3B8DU)
On Aug 15, 2022, at 9:50 PM, Mark Johns, K0JM [email protected]
wrote:
The Chinese plans for amateur radio on their space station have been
widely reported. However, China has not indicated when that operation
will commence.
--
Mark D. Johns, KØJM
AMSAT Ambassador & News Service Editor
Brooklyn Park, MN USA EN35hd
"Heaven goes by favor; if it went by merit,
you would stay out and your dog would go in."
---Mark Twain
On Mon, Aug 15, 2022 at 12:45 PM Jean Marc Momple
[email protected] wrote:
Hi Graham,
Great news, thanks for sharing the info which I am copying to the BB
so that all aware.
I take this opportunity to thank you and the coordination team at IARU
for the MIR-SAT 1 (MO-112) project, you guys have been instrumental with the success of the mission with advices and suggestions. Thanks to you, Hans and all others.
73
Jean Marc (3B8DU)
On Aug 15, 2022, at 9:35 PM, Graham Shirville [email protected]
wrote:
Hi Jean Marc,
Just to give you this info about what the Chinese are up to!
https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.
amsatuk.me.uk%2Fiaru%2Ffinished_detail.php%3Fserialnum%3D857&data
=05%7C01%7C%7C28c9813cbbc1476816c308da7ee8bd63%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435
aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637961835330090836%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJ
WIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C300
0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=iCUK%2FPNS%2Bw7Effk3RPyYlqYaUCZpIMz8yYkO0jKmz6w%
3D&reserved=0
best wishes
Graham
On 15/08/2022 16:55, Jean Marc Momple wrote:
Jim,
I am like you and don't like contest type of QSO but chatting with
friends around the world and also technical experimentation.
As regards the regulations, your are right that this is probably the
biggest hurdle to put our own GEO up there. Just trying to simplify the issues in a nutshell for easy understanding of all: first we will have to find a slot to cover an hemisphere (not cheap), then build the bird and find a launcher (extremely) expensive. More maintain the bird position in space for its life time (say 15 years) and finally park it in the graveyard, this operational part is probably beyond our capabilities and also the risks are huge e.g. (worst case) that we damage a commercial bird up there and all the possible legal and compensation issue.
Therefore, I reiterate that the QO-100 model is the best approach to
have a global GEO network or at least one over Americas, AMSAT-DL & QSAR have done it and have the experience, they have the technical design of the transponders, know all possible issues and also now experienced of operating it. Thus we should use the knowledge acquired and copy with pride. Actually if it is Mitsubishi building a commercial GEO (as they build QO-100) for deployment over an interesting slot for us it would be even easier as they built the HAM transponders, contacting them can be an opportunity eventually as they can bridge the gap between us and their customers (just an idea), may be contacting all the GEO satellites manufacturers (not many anyway) is better as they may be able to put us in contact with their customers thus increasing chances of a ride.
I also again appeal to all AMSAT leaders to join force and have a
common strategy for HAM in space, whatever the outcome HEO, GEO or LEO it will focus our efforts in one direction and enable to reinforce/keep our presence in space.
Another though, now that our Chinese friends have a space station it
would be nice that they have some similar program such as ARISS for students and HAM radio on board, May be any B HAM leader could comment on same.
73
Jean Marc (3B8DU)
On Aug 15, 2022, at 5:37 AM, [email protected] wrote:
I have realized the past few days that our AMSAT group has some really
smart Hams! Thanks very much for the information. I have a few more questions. As I said before I would like to have more than a five minute QSO. I am not much of a contester, more a rag chewer. But I am afraid, if I understand most of you correctly, that is probably not going to happen in my life time? I reference K0JM's comments it's not so much the money but the regulatory environment that will stop this. I don't see this getting any easier in the next year, five years, or ten years. Does anybody else see anything different? And throwing in N8FGV's comments about the timing of the launch seems like a long shot as well. I spent a ton of money prior to AO-40 getting equipment ready to go in high hopes of having an AO-13 length run with so much more to do! I was terribly excited about this bird only to have it vanish before my eyes before I really got started. My last question is would a GOLF type satellite have the same obstacles as a Phase IV bird? If so I am probably going to have a-lot of satellite ham gear for sale real soon. Again thanks for your input.
WA5QAP
(licensed in 1966)
---------------------------- Original Message
Subject: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite
From: "Daniel Schultz" [email protected]
Date: Fri, August 12, 2022 6:57 pm
To: "AMSAT-BB" [email protected]
Hosting our payload on a commercial GEO satellite would likely cost
more than
$10 million if the commercial satellite owner is to be fully
compensated for the engineering modifications to their satellite and
potential loss of transponder revenue from diverting satellite
resources to a non-productive payload over a 15 year design
lifetime. Offering a tax break will probably not make up this
difference. You might have better luck seeking hosting on a
government owned satellite such as the Air Force mission that was
discussed by AMSAT a few years ago, but eventually fell through.
This is where carefully cultivated personal relationships can come
in, if you have any such friends in high places. OSCAR-1 got its
launch approved back in 1961 because of a few highly placed hams in
the Pentagon, so keep up with your networking and maybe it can happen.
Some orbits are inherently unstable, for example 63 degree Molniya
orbits will reliably decay in a few years. The Late, Great OSCAR-13
provides a prime example of this. Their orbital lifetime is heavily
sensitive to the time of launch, if AO-13 was launched a few hours
earlier it would still be up there, a few hours later it would have
reentered a couple of years after launch. This is easy to model in
GMAT.
As a secondary payload, we don't get to choose the launch time, our
only hope would be to use thrusters to make slight post-launch
adjustments so the satellite reenters not too early (as AO-13 did)
and not too late. I have been trying to figure out how to do this
but have not had any results so far. If we have a dedicated launch
all to ourselves we can choose a launch time that meets our
requirements.
The NASA Cubesat that was recently grounded was aiming for a GTO
launch, which has been mentioned as a possible target for an AMSAT
mission because we could possibly get one cheap. Analysis of NORAD
tracking data shows a lot of spent rocket bodies that have been in
GTO for decades, so this might not be the best choice for a mission
that needs a guaranteed reentry date.
Another possibility would be to place the satellite directly into
the GEO graveyard orbit and let it slowly drift around the Earth.
There are plenty of other HEO or Cislunar orbits that are not
sensitive to orbital debris requirements and may not be commercially
attractive but would work OK for our needs.
So yes, if we had $10 million in our bank account we could buy our
way out of a lot of problems that only affect poor people who are
lacking options.
73, Dan N8FGV
------ Original Message ------
Received: Fri, 12 Aug 2022 12:28:55 PM EDT
From: Paul Andrews [email protected]
Subject: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite
Yes! Find a commercial GEOsat with room to support an amateur payload.
Leverage commercial economics for launch and platform reliability.
The commercial operator can donate (tax break) the value of the ham
(STEM) capability. Maybe ham bands at 10 GHz and above. Simple bent
pipe.
------ Original Message ------
Received: Fri, 12 Aug 2022 11:28:21 AM EDT
From: "Mark Johns, K0JM" [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite
The launch costs, while significant, are beside the point. The
biggest issue with HEO satellites are the regulatory challenges.
AMSAT and international partners could build and get ready for
launch such a satellite within a few years, just as they did with
AO-10, AO-13, and AO-40. But they would not get a license to put it
into orbit in the current regulatory environment. The technical and
financial challenges can be met, but the licensing requirements are
killing us.
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I know there is only very preliminary info available so far, but in the videos Ive found I havent heard anything that mentions satellite or full duplex cross band capabilities. If Icom is making this the ultimate VHF/UHF/SHF radio and even adding an analog ATV mode, surely they wouldnt have overlooked the needs of the satellite crowd would they?
Dave N9FN
From: Thomas Talley [email protected] Sent: Saturday, August 20, 2022 12:01 PM To: [email protected] Subject: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite or GOLF
Just an observation
Looks like there will be an off the shelve five and dime radio in the near future:
New ICOM IC-905 VHF/UHF/uW transceiver
http://www.southgatearc.org/news/2022/august/icom-ic905-transceiver.htm#.YwE EdBzMJD8
Nice introduction video.
YMMV
Tom K0CFI
From: Matthias Bopp <[email protected] mailto:[email protected]
Sent: Monday, August 15, 2022 3:19 PM To: David G0MRF <[email protected] mailto:[email protected] >; [email protected] mailto:[email protected] ; [email protected] mailto:[email protected] Subject: AW: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite or GOLF
Hi David,
yes, we did submit such a proposal but unfortunately ESA did not move ahead with it.
Maybe the proposal can be reused. If anyone is interested please send an Email to me.
Kind regards
Matthias
Von: David G0MRF via AMSAT-BB <[email protected] mailto:[email protected] > Gesendet: Dienstag, 16. August 2022 00:15 An: [email protected] mailto:[email protected] ; [email protected] mailto:[email protected] Betreff: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite or GOLF
Hi Tom.
I believe AMSAT-DL currently has a proposal at ESA for an amateur payload in Lunar orbit as a rideshare.
David G0MRF
-----Original Message----- From: Thomas Talley <[email protected] mailto:[email protected] > To: AMSAT-BB <[email protected] mailto:[email protected] > Sent: Mon, 15 Aug 2022 20:22 Subject: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite or GOLF
Perhaps going off on a tangent.. However crazy idea(s)..
Crazy Idea One: Has there been any discission with the Commercial Lunar Payload Services (CLPS) vendors for a possible ride share to the moon?
https://www.nasa.gov/content/commercial-lunar-payload-services https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.nasa. gov%2Fcontent%2Fcommercial-lunar-payload-services&data=05%7C01%7C%7Ce8a86e86 d9fb4f2e0e3f08da7f0c327b%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637961 987650423661%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJ BTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=x5lU16o1SmkqACqvjmZYJVOkKn GE%2FOlCM79DvQcB6b8%3D&reserved=0
Crazy Idea Two: Back in the Apollo program, NASA would have astronauts deploy the Apollo Lunar Surface Experiments Package (ALSEP). When NASA returns to the Moon (i.e., Artemis), what is the possibility of developing a Solar powered Ham Radio Package that would be deployed on the moon surface?
Both crazy ideas would avoid the de-orbiting regulations.
73, Tom K0CFI
-----Original Message-----
From: Jean Marc Momple <[email protected] mailto:[email protected] >
Sent: Monday, August 15, 2022 11:05
To: [email protected] mailto:[email protected]
Cc: AMSAT-BB <[email protected] mailto:[email protected] >
Subject: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite or GOLF
Hi Mark,
Thanks for your input. Really appreciated.
Hopefully they will announce same asap, but more important for me is that HAMs will be on board. Thanks to the OM'S/ YL in China making this possible for the HAM community worldwide. Bravo Ms X and Mr X in China (also to ARISS and all others doing so for years) for your efforts to make the HAM community an active part of the great space adventure.
All the best, 73
Jean Marc (3B8DU)
On Aug 15, 2022, at 9:50 PM, Mark Johns, K0JM <[email protected]
mailto:[email protected] > wrote:
The Chinese plans for amateur radio on their space station have been
widely reported. However, China has not indicated when that operation
will commence.
--
Mark D. Johns, KØJM
AMSAT Ambassador & News Service Editor
Brooklyn Park, MN USA EN35hd
"Heaven goes by favor; if it went by merit,
you would stay out and your dog would go in."
---Mark Twain
On Mon, Aug 15, 2022 at 12:45 PM Jean Marc Momple
<[email protected] mailto:[email protected] > wrote:
Hi Graham,
Great news, thanks for sharing the info which I am copying to the BB so
that all aware.
I take this opportunity to thank you and the coordination team at IARU
for the MIR-SAT 1 (MO-112) project, you guys have been instrumental with the success of the mission with advices and suggestions. Thanks to you, Hans and all others.
73
Jean Marc (3B8DU)
On Aug 15, 2022, at 9:35 PM, Graham Shirville <[email protected]
mailto:[email protected] > wrote:
Hi Jean Marc,
Just to give you this info about what the Chinese are up to!
https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.
amsatuk.me.uk%2Fiaru%2Ffinished_detail.php%3Fserialnum%3D857&data
=05%7C01%7C%7C28c9813cbbc1476816c308da7ee8bd63%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435
aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637961835330090836%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJ
WIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C300
0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=iCUK%2FPNS%2Bw7Effk3RPyYlqYaUCZpIMz8yYkO0jKmz6w%
3D&reserved=0
best wishes
Graham
On 15/08/2022 16:55, Jean Marc Momple wrote:
Jim,
I am like you and don't like contest type of QSO but chatting with
friends around the world and also technical experimentation.
As regards the regulations, your are right that this is probably the
biggest hurdle to put our own GEO up there. Just trying to simplify the issues in a nutshell for easy understanding of all: first we will have to find a slot to cover an hemisphere (not cheap), then build the bird and find a launcher (extremely) expensive. More maintain the bird position in space for its life time (say 15 years) and finally park it in the graveyard, this operational part is probably beyond our capabilities and also the risks are huge e.g. (worst case) that we damage a commercial bird up there and all the possible legal and compensation issue.
Therefore, I reiterate that the QO-100 model is the best approach to have
a global GEO network or at least one over Americas, AMSAT-DL & QSAR have done it and have the experience, they have the technical design of the transponders, know all possible issues and also now experienced of operating it. Thus we should use the knowledge acquired and copy with pride. Actually if it is Mitsubishi building a commercial GEO (as they build QO-100) for deployment over an interesting slot for us it would be even easier as they built the HAM transponders, contacting them can be an opportunity eventually as they can bridge the gap between us and their customers (just an idea), may be contacting all the GEO satellites manufacturers (not many anyway) is better as they may be able to put us in contact with their customers thus increasing chances of a ride.
I also again appeal to all AMSAT leaders to join force and have a common
strategy for HAM in space, whatever the outcome HEO, GEO or LEO it will focus our efforts in one direction and enable to reinforce/keep our presence in space.
Another though, now that our Chinese friends have a space station it
would be nice that they have some similar program such as ARISS for students and HAM radio on board, May be any B HAM leader could comment on same.
73
Jean Marc (3B8DU)
On Aug 15, 2022, at 5:37 AM, [email protected] mailto:[email protected] wrote:
I have realized the past few days that our AMSAT group has some really
smart Hams! Thanks very much for the information. I have a few more questions. As I said before I would like to have more than a five minute QSO. I am not much of a contester, more a rag chewer. But I am afraid, if I understand most of you correctly, that is probably not going to happen in my life time? I reference K0JM's comments it's not so much the money but the regulatory environment that will stop this. I don't see this getting any easier in the next year, five years, or ten years. Does anybody else see anything different? And throwing in N8FGV's comments about the timing of the launch seems like a long shot as well. I spent a ton of money prior to AO-40 getting equipment ready to go in high hopes of having an AO-13 length run with so much more to do! I was terribly excited about this bird only to have it vanish before my eyes before I really got started. My last question is would a GOLF type satellite have the same obstacles as a Phase IV bird? If so I am probably going to have a-lot of satellite ham gear for sale real soon. Again thanks for your input.
WA5QAP
(licensed in 1966)
---------------------------- Original Message
Subject: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite
From: "Daniel Schultz" <[email protected] mailto:[email protected] >
Date: Fri, August 12, 2022 6:57 pm
To: "AMSAT-BB" <[email protected] mailto:[email protected] >
Hosting our payload on a commercial GEO satellite would likely cost
more than
$10 million if the commercial satellite owner is to be fully
compensated for the engineering modifications to their satellite and
potential loss of transponder revenue from diverting satellite
resources to a non-productive payload over a 15 year design
lifetime. Offering a tax break will probably not make up this
difference. You might have better luck seeking hosting on a
government owned satellite such as the Air Force mission that was
discussed by AMSAT a few years ago, but eventually fell through.
This is where carefully cultivated personal relationships can come
in, if you have any such friends in high places. OSCAR-1 got its
launch approved back in 1961 because of a few highly placed hams in the
Pentagon, so keep up with your networking and maybe it can happen.
Some orbits are inherently unstable, for example 63 degree Molniya
orbits will reliably decay in a few years. The Late, Great OSCAR-13
provides a prime example of this. Their orbital lifetime is heavily
sensitive to the time of launch, if AO-13 was launched a few hours
earlier it would still be up there, a few hours later it would have
reentered a couple of years after launch. This is easy to model in GMAT.
As a secondary payload, we don't get to choose the launch time, our
only hope would be to use thrusters to make slight post-launch
adjustments so the satellite reenters not too early (as AO-13 did)
and not too late. I have been trying to figure out how to do this
but have not had any results so far. If we have a dedicated launch
all to ourselves we can choose a launch time that meets our
requirements.
The NASA Cubesat that was recently grounded was aiming for a GTO
launch, which has been mentioned as a possible target for an AMSAT
mission because we could possibly get one cheap. Analysis of NORAD
tracking data shows a lot of spent rocket bodies that have been in
GTO for decades, so this might not be the best choice for a mission that
needs a guaranteed reentry date.
Another possibility would be to place the satellite directly into
the GEO graveyard orbit and let it slowly drift around the Earth.
There are plenty of other HEO or Cislunar orbits that are not
sensitive to orbital debris requirements and may not be commercially
attractive but would work OK for our needs.
So yes, if we had $10 million in our bank account we could buy our
way out of a lot of problems that only affect poor people who are
lacking options.
73, Dan N8FGV
------ Original Message ------
Received: Fri, 12 Aug 2022 12:28:55 PM EDT
From: Paul Andrews <[email protected] mailto:[email protected] >
Subject: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite
Yes! Find a commercial GEOsat with room to support an amateur payload.
Leverage commercial economics for launch and platform reliability.
The commercial operator can donate (tax break) the value of the ham
(STEM) capability. Maybe ham bands at 10 GHz and above. Simple bent
pipe.
------ Original Message ------
Received: Fri, 12 Aug 2022 11:28:21 AM EDT
From: "Mark Johns, K0JM" <[email protected]
Subject: Re: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite
The launch costs, while significant, are beside the point. The
biggest issue with HEO satellites are the regulatory challenges.
AMSAT and international partners could build and get ready for
launch such a satellite within a few years, just as they did with
AO-10, AO-13, and AO-40. But they would not get a license to put it
into orbit in the current regulatory environment. The technical and
financial challenges can be met, but the licensing requirements are
killing us.
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They overlooked 9K6 on the 9700 . . . . . only reason I don't have one.
They also left off 222
Jim
On 8/21/2022 08:48, Dave Chasey - N9FN wrote:
I know there is only very preliminary info available so far, but in the videos I’ve found I haven’t heard anything that mentions satellite or full duplex cross band capabilities. If Icom is making this the ultimate VHF/UHF/SHF radio and even adding an analog ATV mode, surely they wouldn’t have overlooked the needs of the satellite crowd would they?
Dave – N9FN
*From:* Thomas Talley [email protected] *Sent:* Saturday, August 20, 2022 12:01 PM *To:* [email protected] *Subject:* [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite or GOLF
Just an observation…
Looks like there will be an off the shelve “five and dime” radio in the near future:
New ICOM IC-905 VHF/UHF/uW transceiver
http://www.southgatearc.org/news/2022/august/icom-ic905-transceiver.htm#.YwE...
Nice introduction video.
YMMV
Tom K0CFI
*From:* Matthias Bopp [email protected] *Sent:* Monday, August 15, 2022 3:19 PM *To:* David G0MRF [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected] *Subject:* AW: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite or GOLF
Hi David,
yes, we did submit such a proposal but unfortunately ESA did not move ahead with it.
Maybe the proposal can be reused. If anyone is interested please send an Email to me.
Kind regards
Matthias
*Von:*David G0MRF via AMSAT-BB [email protected] *Gesendet:* Dienstag, 16. August 2022 00:15 *An:* [email protected]; [email protected] *Betreff:* [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite or GOLF
Hi Tom.
I believe AMSAT-DL currently has a proposal at ESA for an amateur payload in Lunar orbit as a rideshare.
David G0MRF
-----Original Message----- From: Thomas Talley [email protected] To: AMSAT-BB [email protected] Sent: Mon, 15 Aug 2022 20:22 Subject: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite or GOLF
Perhaps going off on a tangent.. However crazy idea(s)..
Crazy Idea One: Has there been any discission with the Commercial Lunar Payload Services (CLPS) vendors for a possible ride share to the moon?
https://www.nasa.gov/content/commercial-lunar-payload-services https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.nasa.gov%2Fcontent%2Fcommercial-lunar-payload-services&data=05%7C01%7C%7Ce8a86e86d9fb4f2e0e3f08da7f0c327b%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637961987650423661%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=x5lU16o1SmkqACqvjmZYJVOkKnGE%2FOlCM79DvQcB6b8%3D&reserved=0
Crazy Idea Two: Back in the Apollo program, NASA would have astronauts deploy the Apollo Lunar Surface Experiments Package (ALSEP). When NASA returns to the Moon (i.e., Artemis), what is the possibility of developing a Solar powered Ham Radio Package that would be deployed on the moon surface?
Both crazy ideas would avoid the de-orbiting regulations.
73, Tom K0CFI
-----Original Message-----
From: Jean Marc Momple [email protected]
Sent: Monday, August 15, 2022 11:05
Cc: AMSAT-BB [email protected]
Subject: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite or GOLF
Hi Mark,
Thanks for your input. Really appreciated.
Hopefully they will announce same asap, but more important for me is that HAMs will be on board. Thanks to the OM'S/ YL in China making this possible for the HAM community worldwide. Bravo Ms X and Mr X in China (also to ARISS and all others doing so for years) for your efforts to make the HAM community an active part of the great space adventure.
All the best, 73
Jean Marc (3B8DU)
On Aug 15, 2022, at 9:50 PM, Mark Johns, K0JM [email protected] wrote:
The Chinese plans for amateur radio on their space station have been
widely reported. However, China has not indicated when that operation
will commence.
--
Mark D. Johns, KØJM
AMSAT Ambassador & News Service Editor
Brooklyn Park, MN USA EN35hd
"Heaven goes by favor; if it went by merit,
you would stay out and your dog would go in."
---Mark Twain
On Mon, Aug 15, 2022 at 12:45 PM Jean Marc Momple
[email protected] wrote:
Hi Graham,
Great news, thanks for sharing the info which I am copying to the BB so that all aware.
I take this opportunity to thank you and the coordination team at IARU for the MIR-SAT 1 (MO-112)
project, you guys have been instrumental with the success of the mission with advices and suggestions. Thanks to you, Hans and all others.
73
Jean Marc (3B8DU)
On Aug 15, 2022, at 9:35 PM, Graham Shirville [email protected] wrote:
Hi Jean Marc,
Just to give you this info about what the Chinese are up to!
https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.
amsatuk.me.uk%2Fiaru%2Ffinished_detail.php%3Fserialnum%3D857&data
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best wishes
Graham
On 15/08/2022 16:55, Jean Marc Momple wrote:
Jim,
I am like you and don't like contest type of QSO but chatting with friends around the world and
also technical experimentation.
As regards the regulations, your are right that this is probably the biggest hurdle to put our own GEO
up there. Just trying to simplify the issues in a nutshell for easy understanding of all: first we will have to find a slot to cover an hemisphere (not cheap), then build the bird and find a launcher (extremely) expensive. More maintain the bird position in space for its life time (say 15 years) and finally park it in the graveyard, this operational part is probably beyond our capabilities and also the risks are huge e.g. (worst case) that we damage a commercial bird up there and all the possible legal and compensation issue.
Therefore, I reiterate that the QO-100 model is the best approach to have a global GEO network or at
least one over Americas, AMSAT-DL & QSAR have done it and have the experience, they have the technical design of the transponders, know all possible issues and also now experienced of operating it. Thus we should use the knowledge acquired and copy with pride. Actually if it is Mitsubishi building a commercial GEO (as they build QO-100) for deployment over an interesting slot for us it would be even easier as they built the HAM transponders, contacting them can be an opportunity eventually as they can bridge the gap between us and their customers (just an idea), may be contacting all the GEO satellites manufacturers (not many anyway) is better as they may be able to put us in contact with their customers thus increasing chances of a ride.
I also again appeal to all AMSAT leaders to join force and have a common strategy for HAM in space,
whatever the outcome HEO, GEO or LEO it will focus our efforts in one direction and enable to reinforce/keep our presence in space.
Another though, now that our Chinese friends have a space station it would be nice that they have
some similar program such as ARISS for students and HAM radio on board, May be any B HAM leader could comment on same.
73
Jean Marc (3B8DU)
On Aug 15, 2022, at 5:37 AM, [email protected] wrote:
I have realized the past few days that our AMSAT group has some really smart Hams! Thanks very much for
the information. I have a few more questions. As I said before I would like to have more than a five minute QSO. I am not much of a contester, more a rag chewer. But I am afraid, if I understand most of you correctly, that is probably not going to happen in my life time? I reference K0JM's comments it's not so much the money but the regulatory environment that will stop this. I don't see this getting any easier in the next year, five years, or ten years. Does anybody else see anything different? And throwing in N8FGV's comments about the timing of the launch seems like a long shot as well. I spent a ton of money prior to AO-40 getting equipment ready to go in high hopes of having an AO-13 length run with so much more to do! I was terribly excited about this bird only to have it vanish before my eyes before I really got started. My last question is would a GOLF type satellite have the same obstacles as a Phase IV bird? If so I am probably going to have a-lot of satellite ham gear for sale real soon. Again thanks for your input.
WA5QAP
(licensed in 1966)
---------------------------- Original Message
Subject: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite
From: "Daniel Schultz" [email protected]
Date: Fri, August 12, 2022 6:57 pm
To: "AMSAT-BB" [email protected]
Hosting our payload on a commercial GEO satellite would likely cost
more than
$10 million if the commercial satellite owner is to be fully
compensated for the engineering modifications to their satellite and
potential loss of transponder revenue from diverting satellite
resources to a non-productive payload over a 15 year design
lifetime. Offering a tax break will probably not make up this
difference. You might have better luck seeking hosting on a
government owned satellite such as the Air Force mission that was
discussed by AMSAT a few years ago, but eventually fell through.
This is where carefully cultivated personal relationships can come
in, if you have any such friends in high places. OSCAR-1 got its
launch approved back in 1961 because of a few highly placed hams in the Pentagon, so keep up with
your networking and maybe it can happen.
Some orbits are inherently unstable, for example 63 degree Molniya
orbits will reliably decay in a few years. The Late, Great OSCAR-13
provides a prime example of this. Their orbital lifetime is heavily
sensitive to the time of launch, if AO-13 was launched a few hours
earlier it would still be up there, a few hours later it would have
reentered a couple of years after launch. This is easy to model in GMAT.
As a secondary payload, we don't get to choose the launch time, our
only hope would be to use thrusters to make slight post-launch
adjustments so the satellite reenters not too early (as AO-13 did)
and not too late. I have been trying to figure out how to do this
but have not had any results so far. If we have a dedicated launch
all to ourselves we can choose a launch time that meets our requirements.
The NASA Cubesat that was recently grounded was aiming for a GTO
launch, which has been mentioned as a possible target for an AMSAT
mission because we could possibly get one cheap. Analysis of NORAD
tracking data shows a lot of spent rocket bodies that have been in
GTO for decades, so this might not be the best choice for a mission that needs a guaranteed reentry
date.
Another possibility would be to place the satellite directly into
the GEO graveyard orbit and let it slowly drift around the Earth.
There are plenty of other HEO or Cislunar orbits that are not
sensitive to orbital debris requirements and may not be commercially
attractive but would work OK for our needs.
So yes, if we had $10 million in our bank account we could buy our
way out of a lot of problems that only affect poor people who are lacking options.
73, Dan N8FGV
------ Original Message ------
Received: Fri, 12 Aug 2022 12:28:55 PM EDT
From: Paul Andrews [email protected]
Subject: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite
Yes! Find a commercial GEOsat with room to support an amateur payload.
Leverage commercial economics for launch and platform reliability.
The commercial operator can donate (tax break) the value of the ham
(STEM) capability. Maybe ham bands at 10 GHz and above. Simple bent pipe.
------ Original Message ------
Received: Fri, 12 Aug 2022 11:28:21 AM EDT
From: "Mark Johns, K0JM" [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite
The launch costs, while significant, are beside the point. The
biggest issue with HEO satellites are the regulatory challenges.
AMSAT and international partners could build and get ready for
launch such a satellite within a few years, just as they did with
AO-10, AO-13, and AO-40. But they would not get a license to put it
into orbit in the current regulatory environment. The technical and
financial challenges can be met, but the licensing requirements are killing us.
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Jim,
I also asked Ray about 9k6 and up. He mentioned the ATV input, but was not certain beyond that. In any case, not full duplex.
73,
Alan WA4SCA
From: Jim Sanford [email protected] Sent: Sunday, August 21, 2022 08:16 To: [email protected] Subject: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite or GOLF
They overlooked 9K6 on the 9700 . . . . . only reason I don't have one. They also left off 222 Jim [email protected] mailto:[email protected]
On 8/21/2022 08:48, Dave Chasey - N9FN wrote:
I know there is only very preliminary info available so far, but in the videos I’ve found I haven’t heard anything that mentions satellite or full duplex cross band capabilities. If Icom is making this the ultimate VHF/UHF/SHF radio and even adding an analog ATV mode, surely they wouldn’t have overlooked the needs of the satellite crowd would they?
Dave – N9FN
From: Thomas Talley mailto:[email protected] [email protected] Sent: Saturday, August 20, 2022 12:01 PM To: [email protected] mailto:[email protected] Subject: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite or GOLF
Just an observation…
Looks like there will be an off the shelve “five and dime” radio in the near future:
New ICOM IC-905 VHF/UHF/uW transceiver http://www.southgatearc.org/news/2022/august/icom-ic905-transceiver.htm#.YwE...
Nice introduction video.
YMMV
Tom K0CFI
From: Matthias Bopp <[email protected] mailto:[email protected] > Sent: Monday, August 15, 2022 3:19 PM To: David G0MRF <[email protected] mailto:[email protected] >; [email protected] mailto:[email protected] ; [email protected] mailto:[email protected] Subject: AW: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite or GOLF
Hi David,
yes, we did submit such a proposal but unfortunately ESA did not move ahead with it.
Maybe the proposal can be reused. If anyone is interested please send an Email to me.
Kind regards
Matthias
Von: David G0MRF via AMSAT-BB <[email protected] mailto:[email protected] > Gesendet: Dienstag, 16. August 2022 00:15 An: [email protected] mailto:[email protected] ; [email protected] mailto:[email protected] Betreff: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite or GOLF
Hi Tom.
I believe AMSAT-DL currently has a proposal at ESA for an amateur payload in Lunar orbit as a rideshare.
David G0MRF
-----Original Message----- From: Thomas Talley <[email protected] mailto:[email protected] > To: AMSAT-BB <[email protected] mailto:[email protected] > Sent: Mon, 15 Aug 2022 20:22 Subject: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite or GOLF Perhaps going off on a tangent.. However crazy idea(s)..
Crazy Idea One: Has there been any discission with the Commercial Lunar Payload Services (CLPS) vendors for a possible ride share to the moon? https://www.nasa.gov/content/commercial-lunar-payload-services https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.nasa.gov%2Fcontent%2Fcommercial-lunar-payload-services&data=05%7C01%7C%7Ce8a86e86d9fb4f2e0e3f08da7f0c327b%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637961987650423661%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=x5lU16o1SmkqACqvjmZYJVOkKnGE%2FOlCM79DvQcB6b8%3D&reserved=0
Crazy Idea Two: Back in the Apollo program, NASA would have astronauts deploy the Apollo Lunar Surface Experiments Package (ALSEP). When NASA returns to the Moon (i.e., Artemis), what is the possibility of developing a Solar powered Ham Radio Package that would be deployed on the moon surface?
Both crazy ideas would avoid the de-orbiting regulations.
73, Tom K0CFI
-----Original Message----- From: Jean Marc Momple <[email protected] mailto:[email protected] > Sent: Monday, August 15, 2022 11:05 To: [email protected] mailto:[email protected] Cc: AMSAT-BB <[email protected] mailto:[email protected] > Subject: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite or GOLF
Hi Mark,
Thanks for your input. Really appreciated.
Hopefully they will announce same asap, but more important for me is that HAMs will be on board. Thanks to the OM'S/ YL in China making this possible for the HAM community worldwide. Bravo Ms X and Mr X in China (also to ARISS and all others doing so for years) for your efforts to make the HAM community an active part of the great space adventure.
All the best, 73
Jean Marc (3B8DU)
On Aug 15, 2022, at 9:50 PM, Mark Johns, K0JM <[email protected] mailto:[email protected] > wrote:
The Chinese plans for amateur radio on their space station have been widely reported. However, China has not indicated when that operation will commence. -- Mark D. Johns, KØJM AMSAT Ambassador & News Service Editor Brooklyn Park, MN USA EN35hd
"Heaven goes by favor; if it went by merit, you would stay out and your dog would go in." ---Mark Twain
On Mon, Aug 15, 2022 at 12:45 PM Jean Marc Momple <[email protected] mailto:[email protected] > wrote:
Hi Graham,
Great news, thanks for sharing the info which I am copying to the BB so that all aware.
I take this opportunity to thank you and the coordination team at IARU for the MIR-SAT 1 (MO-112) project, you guys have been instrumental with the success of the mission with advices and suggestions. Thanks to you, Hans and all others.
73
Jean Marc (3B8DU)
On Aug 15, 2022, at 9:35 PM, Graham Shirville <[email protected] mailto:[email protected] > wrote:
Hi Jean Marc,
Just to give you this info about what the Chinese are up to!
https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww. amsatuk.me.uk%2Fiaru%2Ffinished_detail.php%3Fserialnum%3D857&data =05%7C01%7C%7C28c9813cbbc1476816c308da7ee8bd63%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435 aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637961835330090836%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJ WIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C300 0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=iCUK%2FPNS%2Bw7Effk3RPyYlqYaUCZpIMz8yYkO0jKmz6w% 3D&reserved=0
best wishes
Graham
On 15/08/2022 16:55, Jean Marc Momple wrote:
Jim,
I am like you and don't like contest type of QSO but chatting with friends around the world and also technical experimentation.
As regards the regulations, your are right that this is probably the biggest hurdle to put our own GEO up there. Just trying to simplify the issues in a nutshell for easy understanding of all: first we will have to find a slot to cover an hemisphere (not cheap), then build the bird and find a launcher (extremely) expensive. More maintain the bird position in space for its life time (say 15 years) and finally park it in the graveyard, this operational part is probably beyond our capabilities and also the risks are huge e.g. (worst case) that we damage a commercial bird up there and all the possible legal and compensation issue.
Therefore, I reiterate that the QO-100 model is the best approach to have a global GEO network or at least one over Americas, AMSAT-DL & QSAR have done it and have the experience, they have the technical design of the transponders, know all possible issues and also now experienced of operating it. Thus we should use the knowledge acquired and copy with pride. Actually if it is Mitsubishi building a commercial GEO (as they build QO-100) for deployment over an interesting slot for us it would be even easier as they built the HAM transponders, contacting them can be an opportunity eventually as they can bridge the gap between us and their customers (just an idea), may be contacting all the GEO satellites manufacturers (not many anyway) is better as they may be able to put us in contact with their customers thus increasing chances of a ride.
I also again appeal to all AMSAT leaders to join force and have a common strategy for HAM in space, whatever the outcome HEO, GEO or LEO it will focus our efforts in one direction and enable to reinforce/keep our presence in space.
Another though, now that our Chinese friends have a space station it would be nice that they have some similar program such as ARISS for students and HAM radio on board, May be any B HAM leader could comment on same.
73
Jean Marc (3B8DU)
On Aug 15, 2022, at 5:37 AM, [email protected] mailto:[email protected] wrote:
I have realized the past few days that our AMSAT group has some really smart Hams! Thanks very much for the information. I have a few more questions. As I said before I would like to have more than a five minute QSO. I am not much of a contester, more a rag chewer. But I am afraid, if I understand most of you correctly, that is probably not going to happen in my life time? I reference K0JM's comments it's not so much the money but the regulatory environment that will stop this. I don't see this getting any easier in the next year, five years, or ten years. Does anybody else see anything different? And throwing in N8FGV's comments about the timing of the launch seems like a long shot as well. I spent a ton of money prior to AO-40 getting equipment ready to go in high hopes of having an AO-13 length run with so much more to do! I was terribly excited about this bird only to have it vanish before my eyes before I really got started. My last question is would a GOLF type satellite have the same obstacles as a Phase IV bird? If so I am probably going to have a-lot of satellite ham gear for sale real soon. Again thanks for your input.
WA5QAP
(licensed in 1966)
---------------------------- Original Message
Subject: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite From: "Daniel Schultz" <[email protected] mailto:[email protected] > Date: Fri, August 12, 2022 6:57 pm To: "AMSAT-BB" <[email protected] mailto:[email protected] >
Hosting our payload on a commercial GEO satellite would likely cost more than $10 million if the commercial satellite owner is to be fully compensated for the engineering modifications to their satellite and potential loss of transponder revenue from diverting satellite resources to a non-productive payload over a 15 year design lifetime. Offering a tax break will probably not make up this difference. You might have better luck seeking hosting on a government owned satellite such as the Air Force mission that was discussed by AMSAT a few years ago, but eventually fell through. This is where carefully cultivated personal relationships can come in, if you have any such friends in high places. OSCAR-1 got its launch approved back in 1961 because of a few highly placed hams in the Pentagon, so keep up with your networking and maybe it can happen.
Some orbits are inherently unstable, for example 63 degree Molniya orbits will reliably decay in a few years. The Late, Great OSCAR-13 provides a prime example of this. Their orbital lifetime is heavily sensitive to the time of launch, if AO-13 was launched a few hours earlier it would still be up there, a few hours later it would have reentered a couple of years after launch. This is easy to model in GMAT.
As a secondary payload, we don't get to choose the launch time, our only hope would be to use thrusters to make slight post-launch adjustments so the satellite reenters not too early (as AO-13 did) and not too late. I have been trying to figure out how to do this but have not had any results so far. If we have a dedicated launch all to ourselves we can choose a launch time that meets our requirements.
The NASA Cubesat that was recently grounded was aiming for a GTO launch, which has been mentioned as a possible target for an AMSAT mission because we could possibly get one cheap. Analysis of NORAD tracking data shows a lot of spent rocket bodies that have been in GTO for decades, so this might not be the best choice for a mission that needs a guaranteed reentry date.
Another possibility would be to place the satellite directly into the GEO graveyard orbit and let it slowly drift around the Earth. There are plenty of other HEO or Cislunar orbits that are not sensitive to orbital debris requirements and may not be commercially attractive but would work OK for our needs.
So yes, if we had $10 million in our bank account we could buy our way out of a lot of problems that only affect poor people who are lacking options.
73, Dan N8FGV
------ Original Message ------ Received: Fri, 12 Aug 2022 12:28:55 PM EDT
From: Paul Andrews <[email protected] mailto:[email protected] >
Subject: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite
Yes! Find a commercial GEOsat with room to support an amateur payload. Leverage commercial economics for launch and platform reliability. The commercial operator can donate (tax break) the value of the ham (STEM) capability. Maybe ham bands at 10 GHz and above. Simple bent pipe.
------ Original Message ------ Received: Fri, 12 Aug 2022 11:28:21 AM EDT
From: "Mark Johns, K0JM" <[email protected] mailto:[email protected] >
Subject: Re: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite
The launch costs, while significant, are beside the point. The biggest issue with HEO satellites are the regulatory challenges. AMSAT and international partners could build and get ready for launch such a satellite within a few years, just as they did with AO-10, AO-13, and AO-40. But they would not get a license to put it into orbit in the current regulatory environment. The technical and financial challenges can be met, but the licensing requirements are killing us.
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https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient Virus-free. https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient www.avast.com
Thanks for the info Alan.
I have a pair of 9700’s, one for home and one for portable satellite operating, and would have bought a 705 if it did full duplex, but passed because it didn’t. Looks like I’ll likely pass on the 905 now too. The remote RF deck to eliminate feedline loss is a great idea for fixed and even some portable installations too!
It’s disappointing but understandable that they didn’t include 222 since that band isn’t available in much of the world market, but geez, at least my impression is that the analog ATV market would be much smaller than the satellite market and for a “do everything” radio that they would neglect satellite operation.
73 and thanks,
Dave – N9FN
From: Alan [email protected] Sent: Sunday, August 21, 2022 9:22 AM To: [email protected]; [email protected] Subject: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite or GOLF
Jim,
I also asked Ray about 9k6 and up. He mentioned the ATV input, but was not certain beyond that. In any case, not full duplex.
73,
Alan
WA4SCA
From: Jim Sanford <[email protected] mailto:[email protected] > Sent: Sunday, August 21, 2022 08:16 To: [email protected] mailto:[email protected] Subject: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite or GOLF
They overlooked 9K6 on the 9700 . . . . . only reason I don't have one.
They also left off 222
Jim
[email protected] mailto:[email protected]
On 8/21/2022 08:48, Dave Chasey - N9FN wrote:
I know there is only very preliminary info available so far, but in the videos I’ve found I haven’t heard anything that mentions satellite or full duplex cross band capabilities. If Icom is making this the ultimate VHF/UHF/SHF radio and even adding an analog ATV mode, surely they wouldn’t have overlooked the needs of the satellite crowd would they?
Dave – N9FN
From: Thomas Talley mailto:[email protected] [email protected] Sent: Saturday, August 20, 2022 12:01 PM To: [email protected] mailto:[email protected] Subject: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite or GOLF
Just an observation…
Looks like there will be an off the shelve “five and dime” radio in the near future:
New ICOM IC-905 VHF/UHF/uW transceiver
http://www.southgatearc.org/news/2022/august/icom-ic905-transceiver.htm#.YwE...
Nice introduction video.
YMMV
Tom K0CFI
From: Matthias Bopp <[email protected] mailto:[email protected] > Sent: Monday, August 15, 2022 3:19 PM To: David G0MRF <[email protected] mailto:[email protected] >; [email protected] mailto:[email protected] ; [email protected] mailto:[email protected] Subject: AW: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite or GOLF
Hi David,
yes, we did submit such a proposal but unfortunately ESA did not move ahead with it.
Maybe the proposal can be reused. If anyone is interested please send an Email to me.
Kind regards
Matthias
Von: David G0MRF via AMSAT-BB <[email protected] mailto:[email protected] > Gesendet: Dienstag, 16. August 2022 00:15 An: [email protected] mailto:[email protected] ; [email protected] mailto:[email protected] Betreff: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite or GOLF
Hi Tom.
I believe AMSAT-DL currently has a proposal at ESA for an amateur payload in Lunar orbit as a rideshare.
David G0MRF
-----Original Message----- From: Thomas Talley <[email protected] mailto:[email protected] > To: AMSAT-BB <[email protected] mailto:[email protected] > Sent: Mon, 15 Aug 2022 20:22 Subject: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite or GOLF
Perhaps going off on a tangent.. However crazy idea(s)..
Crazy Idea One: Has there been any discission with the Commercial Lunar Payload Services (CLPS) vendors for a possible ride share to the moon?
https://www.nasa.gov/content/commercial-lunar-payload-services https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.nasa.gov%2Fcontent%2Fcommercial-lunar-payload-services&data=05%7C01%7C%7Ce8a86e86d9fb4f2e0e3f08da7f0c327b%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637961987650423661%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=x5lU16o1SmkqACqvjmZYJVOkKnGE%2FOlCM79DvQcB6b8%3D&reserved=0
Crazy Idea Two: Back in the Apollo program, NASA would have astronauts deploy the Apollo Lunar Surface Experiments Package (ALSEP). When NASA returns to the Moon (i.e., Artemis), what is the possibility of developing a Solar powered Ham Radio Package that would be deployed on the moon surface?
Both crazy ideas would avoid the de-orbiting regulations.
73, Tom K0CFI
-----Original Message-----
From: Jean Marc Momple <[email protected] mailto:[email protected] >
Sent: Monday, August 15, 2022 11:05
To: [email protected] mailto:[email protected]
Cc: AMSAT-BB <[email protected] mailto:[email protected] >
Subject: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite or GOLF
Hi Mark,
Thanks for your input. Really appreciated.
Hopefully they will announce same asap, but more important for me is that HAMs will be on board. Thanks to the OM'S/ YL in China making this possible for the HAM community worldwide. Bravo Ms X and Mr X in China (also to ARISS and all others doing so for years) for your efforts to make the HAM community an active part of the great space adventure.
All the best, 73
Jean Marc (3B8DU)
On Aug 15, 2022, at 9:50 PM, Mark Johns, K0JM <[email protected] mailto:[email protected] > wrote:
The Chinese plans for amateur radio on their space station have been
widely reported. However, China has not indicated when that operation
will commence.
--
Mark D. Johns, KØJM
AMSAT Ambassador & News Service Editor
Brooklyn Park, MN USA EN35hd
"Heaven goes by favor; if it went by merit,
you would stay out and your dog would go in."
---Mark Twain
On Mon, Aug 15, 2022 at 12:45 PM Jean Marc Momple
<[email protected] mailto:[email protected] > wrote:
Hi Graham,
Great news, thanks for sharing the info which I am copying to the BB so that all aware.
I take this opportunity to thank you and the coordination team at IARU for the MIR-SAT 1 (MO-112) project, you guys have been instrumental with the success of the mission with advices and suggestions. Thanks to you, Hans and all others.
73
Jean Marc (3B8DU)
On Aug 15, 2022, at 9:35 PM, Graham Shirville <[email protected] mailto:[email protected] > wrote:
Hi Jean Marc,
Just to give you this info about what the Chinese are up to!
https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.
amsatuk.me.uk%2Fiaru%2Ffinished_detail.php%3Fserialnum%3D857&data
=05%7C01%7C%7C28c9813cbbc1476816c308da7ee8bd63%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435
aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637961835330090836%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJ
WIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C300
0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=iCUK%2FPNS%2Bw7Effk3RPyYlqYaUCZpIMz8yYkO0jKmz6w%
3D&reserved=0
best wishes
Graham
On 15/08/2022 16:55, Jean Marc Momple wrote:
Jim,
I am like you and don't like contest type of QSO but chatting with friends around the world and also technical experimentation.
As regards the regulations, your are right that this is probably the biggest hurdle to put our own GEO up there. Just trying to simplify the issues in a nutshell for easy understanding of all: first we will have to find a slot to cover an hemisphere (not cheap), then build the bird and find a launcher (extremely) expensive. More maintain the bird position in space for its life time (say 15 years) and finally park it in the graveyard, this operational part is probably beyond our capabilities and also the risks are huge e.g. (worst case) that we damage a commercial bird up there and all the possible legal and compensation issue.
Therefore, I reiterate that the QO-100 model is the best approach to have a global GEO network or at least one over Americas, AMSAT-DL & QSAR have done it and have the experience, they have the technical design of the transponders, know all possible issues and also now experienced of operating it. Thus we should use the knowledge acquired and copy with pride. Actually if it is Mitsubishi building a commercial GEO (as they build QO-100) for deployment over an interesting slot for us it would be even easier as they built the HAM transponders, contacting them can be an opportunity eventually as they can bridge the gap between us and their customers (just an idea), may be contacting all the GEO satellites manufacturers (not many anyway) is better as they may be able to put us in contact with their customers thus increasing chances of a ride.
I also again appeal to all AMSAT leaders to join force and have a common strategy for HAM in space, whatever the outcome HEO, GEO or LEO it will focus our efforts in one direction and enable to reinforce/keep our presence in space.
Another though, now that our Chinese friends have a space station it would be nice that they have some similar program such as ARISS for students and HAM radio on board, May be any B HAM leader could comment on same.
73
Jean Marc (3B8DU)
On Aug 15, 2022, at 5:37 AM, [email protected] mailto:[email protected] wrote:
I have realized the past few days that our AMSAT group has some really smart Hams! Thanks very much for the information. I have a few more questions. As I said before I would like to have more than a five minute QSO. I am not much of a contester, more a rag chewer. But I am afraid, if I understand most of you correctly, that is probably not going to happen in my life time? I reference K0JM's comments it's not so much the money but the regulatory environment that will stop this. I don't see this getting any easier in the next year, five years, or ten years. Does anybody else see anything different? And throwing in N8FGV's comments about the timing of the launch seems like a long shot as well. I spent a ton of money prior to AO-40 getting equipment ready to go in high hopes of having an AO-13 length run with so much more to do! I was terribly excited about this bird only to have it vanish before my eyes before I really got started. My last question is would a GOLF type satellite have the same obstacles as a Phase IV bird? If so I am probably going to have a-lot of satellite ham gear for sale real soon. Again thanks for your input.
WA5QAP
(licensed in 1966)
---------------------------- Original Message
Subject: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite
From: "Daniel Schultz" <[email protected] mailto:[email protected] >
Date: Fri, August 12, 2022 6:57 pm
To: "AMSAT-BB" <[email protected] mailto:[email protected] >
Hosting our payload on a commercial GEO satellite would likely cost
more than
$10 million if the commercial satellite owner is to be fully
compensated for the engineering modifications to their satellite and
potential loss of transponder revenue from diverting satellite
resources to a non-productive payload over a 15 year design
lifetime. Offering a tax break will probably not make up this
difference. You might have better luck seeking hosting on a
government owned satellite such as the Air Force mission that was
discussed by AMSAT a few years ago, but eventually fell through.
This is where carefully cultivated personal relationships can come
in, if you have any such friends in high places. OSCAR-1 got its
launch approved back in 1961 because of a few highly placed hams in the Pentagon, so keep up with your networking and maybe it can happen.
Some orbits are inherently unstable, for example 63 degree Molniya
orbits will reliably decay in a few years. The Late, Great OSCAR-13
provides a prime example of this. Their orbital lifetime is heavily
sensitive to the time of launch, if AO-13 was launched a few hours
earlier it would still be up there, a few hours later it would have
reentered a couple of years after launch. This is easy to model in GMAT.
As a secondary payload, we don't get to choose the launch time, our
only hope would be to use thrusters to make slight post-launch
adjustments so the satellite reenters not too early (as AO-13 did)
and not too late. I have been trying to figure out how to do this
but have not had any results so far. If we have a dedicated launch
all to ourselves we can choose a launch time that meets our requirements.
The NASA Cubesat that was recently grounded was aiming for a GTO
launch, which has been mentioned as a possible target for an AMSAT
mission because we could possibly get one cheap. Analysis of NORAD
tracking data shows a lot of spent rocket bodies that have been in
GTO for decades, so this might not be the best choice for a mission that needs a guaranteed reentry date.
Another possibility would be to place the satellite directly into
the GEO graveyard orbit and let it slowly drift around the Earth.
There are plenty of other HEO or Cislunar orbits that are not
sensitive to orbital debris requirements and may not be commercially
attractive but would work OK for our needs.
So yes, if we had $10 million in our bank account we could buy our
way out of a lot of problems that only affect poor people who are lacking options.
73, Dan N8FGV
------ Original Message ------
Received: Fri, 12 Aug 2022 12:28:55 PM EDT
From: Paul Andrews <[email protected] mailto:[email protected] >
Subject: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite
Yes! Find a commercial GEOsat with room to support an amateur payload.
Leverage commercial economics for launch and platform reliability.
The commercial operator can donate (tax break) the value of the ham
(STEM) capability. Maybe ham bands at 10 GHz and above. Simple bent pipe.
------ Original Message ------
Received: Fri, 12 Aug 2022 11:28:21 AM EDT
From: "Mark Johns, K0JM" <[email protected] mailto:[email protected] >
Subject: Re: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite
The launch costs, while significant, are beside the point. The
biggest issue with HEO satellites are the regulatory challenges.
AMSAT and international partners could build and get ready for
launch such a satellite within a few years, just as they did with
AO-10, AO-13, and AO-40. But they would not get a license to put it
into orbit in the current regulatory environment. The technical and
financial challenges can be met, but the licensing requirements are killing us.
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Virus-free. https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient www.avast.com
I’d they don’t include 9600+++ packet, it’s a fail ;-). More than full duplex even. At Hamvention, many of us stopped by the ICOM booth where the reps were asking about desired features. Rest assured high speed data/packet was requested. We also pitched the bands for Five and Dime!!
I think the 705 will make a nice full duplex partner rig for 2/70/1.2.
Mark N8MH
On Sun, Aug 21, 2022 at 10:02 AM Dave Chasey - N9FN [email protected] wrote:
Thanks for the info Alan.
I have a pair of 9700’s, one for home and one for portable satellite operating, and would have bought a 705 if it did full duplex, but passed because it didn’t. Looks like I’ll likely pass on the 905 now too. The remote RF deck to eliminate feedline loss is a great idea for fixed and even some portable installations too!
It’s disappointing but understandable that they didn’t include 222 since that band isn’t available in much of the world market, but geez, at least my impression is that the analog ATV market would be much smaller than the satellite market and for a “do everything” radio that they would neglect satellite operation.
73 and thanks,
Dave – N9FN
*From:* Alan [email protected] *Sent:* Sunday, August 21, 2022 9:22 AM *To:* [email protected]; [email protected] *Subject:* [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite or GOLF
Jim,
I also asked Ray about 9k6 and up. He mentioned the ATV input, but was not certain beyond that. In any case, not full duplex.
73,
Alan
WA4SCA
*From:* Jim Sanford [email protected] *Sent:* Sunday, August 21, 2022 08:16 *To:* [email protected] *Subject:* [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite or GOLF
They overlooked 9K6 on the 9700 . . . . . only reason I don't have one.
They also left off 222
Jim
On 8/21/2022 08:48, Dave Chasey - N9FN wrote:
I know there is only very preliminary info available so far, but in the videos I’ve found I haven’t heard anything that mentions satellite or full duplex cross band capabilities. If Icom is making this the ultimate VHF/UHF/SHF radio and even adding an analog ATV mode, surely they wouldn’t have overlooked the needs of the satellite crowd would they?
Dave – N9FN
*From:* Thomas Talley [email protected] [email protected] *Sent:* Saturday, August 20, 2022 12:01 PM *To:* [email protected] *Subject:* [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite or GOLF
Just an observation…
Looks like there will be an off the shelve “five and dime” radio in the near future:
New ICOM IC-905 VHF/UHF/uW transceiver
http://www.southgatearc.org/news/2022/august/icom-ic905-transceiver.htm#.YwE...
Nice introduction video.
YMMV
Tom K0CFI
*From:* Matthias Bopp [email protected] *Sent:* Monday, August 15, 2022 3:19 PM *To:* David G0MRF [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected] *Subject:* AW: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite or GOLF
Hi David,
yes, we did submit such a proposal but unfortunately ESA did not move ahead with it.
Maybe the proposal can be reused. If anyone is interested please send an Email to me.
Kind regards
Matthias
*Von:* David G0MRF via AMSAT-BB [email protected] *Gesendet:* Dienstag, 16. August 2022 00:15 *An:* [email protected]; [email protected] *Betreff:* [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite or GOLF
Hi Tom.
I believe AMSAT-DL currently has a proposal at ESA for an amateur payload in Lunar orbit as a rideshare.
David G0MRF
-----Original Message----- From: Thomas Talley [email protected] To: AMSAT-BB [email protected] Sent: Mon, 15 Aug 2022 20:22 Subject: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite or GOLF
Perhaps going off on a tangent.. However crazy idea(s)..
Crazy Idea One: Has there been any discission with the Commercial Lunar Payload Services (CLPS) vendors for a possible ride share to the moon?
https://www.nasa.gov/content/commercial-lunar-payload-services https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.nasa.gov%2Fcontent%2Fcommercial-lunar-payload-services&data=05%7C01%7C%7Ce8a86e86d9fb4f2e0e3f08da7f0c327b%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637961987650423661%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=x5lU16o1SmkqACqvjmZYJVOkKnGE%2FOlCM79DvQcB6b8%3D&reserved=0
Crazy Idea Two: Back in the Apollo program, NASA would have astronauts deploy the Apollo Lunar Surface Experiments Package (ALSEP). When NASA returns to the Moon (i.e., Artemis), what is the possibility of developing a Solar powered Ham Radio Package that would be deployed on the moon surface?
Both crazy ideas would avoid the de-orbiting regulations.
73, Tom K0CFI
-----Original Message-----
From: Jean Marc Momple [email protected]
Sent: Monday, August 15, 2022 11:05
Cc: AMSAT-BB [email protected]
Subject: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite or GOLF
Hi Mark,
Thanks for your input. Really appreciated.
Hopefully they will announce same asap, but more important for me is that HAMs will be on board. Thanks to the OM'S/ YL in China making this possible for the HAM community worldwide. Bravo Ms X and Mr X in China (also to ARISS and all others doing so for years) for your efforts to make the HAM community an active part of the great space adventure.
All the best, 73
Jean Marc (3B8DU)
On Aug 15, 2022, at 9:50 PM, Mark Johns, K0JM [email protected]
wrote:
The Chinese plans for amateur radio on their space station have been
widely reported. However, China has not indicated when that operation
will commence.
--
Mark D. Johns, KØJM
AMSAT Ambassador & News Service Editor
Brooklyn Park, MN USA EN35hd
"Heaven goes by favor; if it went by merit,
you would stay out and your dog would go in."
---Mark Twain
On Mon, Aug 15, 2022 at 12:45 PM Jean Marc Momple
[email protected] wrote:
Hi Graham,
Great news, thanks for sharing the info which I am copying to the BB
so that all aware.
I take this opportunity to thank you and the coordination team at IARU
for the MIR-SAT 1 (MO-112) project, you guys have been instrumental with the success of the mission with advices and suggestions. Thanks to you, Hans and all others.
73
Jean Marc (3B8DU)
On Aug 15, 2022, at 9:35 PM, Graham Shirville [email protected]
wrote:
Hi Jean Marc,
Just to give you this info about what the Chinese are up to!
https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.
amsatuk.me.uk%2Fiaru%2Ffinished_detail.php%3Fserialnum%3D857&data
=05%7C01%7C%7C28c9813cbbc1476816c308da7ee8bd63%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435
aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637961835330090836%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJ
WIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C300
0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=iCUK%2FPNS%2Bw7Effk3RPyYlqYaUCZpIMz8yYkO0jKmz6w%
3D&reserved=0
best wishes
Graham
On 15/08/2022 16:55, Jean Marc Momple wrote:
Jim,
I am like you and don't like contest type of QSO but chatting with
friends around the world and also technical experimentation.
As regards the regulations, your are right that this is probably the
biggest hurdle to put our own GEO up there. Just trying to simplify the issues in a nutshell for easy understanding of all: first we will have to find a slot to cover an hemisphere (not cheap), then build the bird and find a launcher (extremely) expensive. More maintain the bird position in space for its life time (say 15 years) and finally park it in the graveyard, this operational part is probably beyond our capabilities and also the risks are huge e.g. (worst case) that we damage a commercial bird up there and all the possible legal and compensation issue.
Therefore, I reiterate that the QO-100 model is the best approach to
have a global GEO network or at least one over Americas, AMSAT-DL & QSAR have done it and have the experience, they have the technical design of the transponders, know all possible issues and also now experienced of operating it. Thus we should use the knowledge acquired and copy with pride. Actually if it is Mitsubishi building a commercial GEO (as they build QO-100) for deployment over an interesting slot for us it would be even easier as they built the HAM transponders, contacting them can be an opportunity eventually as they can bridge the gap between us and their customers (just an idea), may be contacting all the GEO satellites manufacturers (not many anyway) is better as they may be able to put us in contact with their customers thus increasing chances of a ride.
I also again appeal to all AMSAT leaders to join force and have a
common strategy for HAM in space, whatever the outcome HEO, GEO or LEO it will focus our efforts in one direction and enable to reinforce/keep our presence in space.
Another though, now that our Chinese friends have a space station it
would be nice that they have some similar program such as ARISS for students and HAM radio on board, May be any B HAM leader could comment on same.
73
Jean Marc (3B8DU)
On Aug 15, 2022, at 5:37 AM, [email protected] wrote:
I have realized the past few days that our AMSAT group has some really
smart Hams! Thanks very much for the information. I have a few more questions. As I said before I would like to have more than a five minute QSO. I am not much of a contester, more a rag chewer. But I am afraid, if I understand most of you correctly, that is probably not going to happen in my life time? I reference K0JM's comments it's not so much the money but the regulatory environment that will stop this. I don't see this getting any easier in the next year, five years, or ten years. Does anybody else see anything different? And throwing in N8FGV's comments about the timing of the launch seems like a long shot as well. I spent a ton of money prior to AO-40 getting equipment ready to go in high hopes of having an AO-13 length run with so much more to do! I was terribly excited about this bird only to have it vanish before my eyes before I really got started. My last question is would a GOLF type satellite have the same obstacles as a Phase IV bird? If so I am probably going to have a-lot of satellite ham gear for sale real soon. Again thanks for your input.
WA5QAP
(licensed in 1966)
---------------------------- Original Message
Subject: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite
From: "Daniel Schultz" [email protected]
Date: Fri, August 12, 2022 6:57 pm
To: "AMSAT-BB" [email protected]
Hosting our payload on a commercial GEO satellite would likely cost
more than
$10 million if the commercial satellite owner is to be fully
compensated for the engineering modifications to their satellite and
potential loss of transponder revenue from diverting satellite
resources to a non-productive payload over a 15 year design
lifetime. Offering a tax break will probably not make up this
difference. You might have better luck seeking hosting on a
government owned satellite such as the Air Force mission that was
discussed by AMSAT a few years ago, but eventually fell through.
This is where carefully cultivated personal relationships can come
in, if you have any such friends in high places. OSCAR-1 got its
launch approved back in 1961 because of a few highly placed hams in
the Pentagon, so keep up with your networking and maybe it can happen.
Some orbits are inherently unstable, for example 63 degree Molniya
orbits will reliably decay in a few years. The Late, Great OSCAR-13
provides a prime example of this. Their orbital lifetime is heavily
sensitive to the time of launch, if AO-13 was launched a few hours
earlier it would still be up there, a few hours later it would have
reentered a couple of years after launch. This is easy to model in
GMAT.
As a secondary payload, we don't get to choose the launch time, our
only hope would be to use thrusters to make slight post-launch
adjustments so the satellite reenters not too early (as AO-13 did)
and not too late. I have been trying to figure out how to do this
but have not had any results so far. If we have a dedicated launch
all to ourselves we can choose a launch time that meets our
requirements.
The NASA Cubesat that was recently grounded was aiming for a GTO
launch, which has been mentioned as a possible target for an AMSAT
mission because we could possibly get one cheap. Analysis of NORAD
tracking data shows a lot of spent rocket bodies that have been in
GTO for decades, so this might not be the best choice for a mission
that needs a guaranteed reentry date.
Another possibility would be to place the satellite directly into
the GEO graveyard orbit and let it slowly drift around the Earth.
There are plenty of other HEO or Cislunar orbits that are not
sensitive to orbital debris requirements and may not be commercially
attractive but would work OK for our needs.
So yes, if we had $10 million in our bank account we could buy our
way out of a lot of problems that only affect poor people who are
lacking options.
73, Dan N8FGV
------ Original Message ------
Received: Fri, 12 Aug 2022 12:28:55 PM EDT
From: Paul Andrews [email protected]
Subject: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite
Yes! Find a commercial GEOsat with room to support an amateur payload.
Leverage commercial economics for launch and platform reliability.
The commercial operator can donate (tax break) the value of the ham
(STEM) capability. Maybe ham bands at 10 GHz and above. Simple bent
pipe.
------ Original Message ------
Received: Fri, 12 Aug 2022 11:28:21 AM EDT
From: "Mark Johns, K0JM" [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite
The launch costs, while significant, are beside the point. The
biggest issue with HEO satellites are the regulatory challenges.
AMSAT and international partners could build and get ready for
launch such a satellite within a few years, just as they did with
AO-10, AO-13, and AO-40. But they would not get a license to put it
into orbit in the current regulatory environment. The technical and
financial challenges can be met, but the licensing requirements are
killing us.
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222 isn’t available in Japan and also many other countries in the world. It isn’t all about the US market.
73,
Les Rayburn, N1LF [email protected] mailto:[email protected] 121 Mayfair Park Maylene, AL 35114 EM63nf
NRC & IRCA Courtesy Program Committee Chairman Member WTFDA, MWC
Perseus SDR, AirSpy + Discovery, SDRPlay RSP Duo, Sony XDR-F1HD [XDR Guy Modified], Korner 9.2 Antenna, FM-6 Antenna, Kitz Technologies KT-501 Pre-amps, Quantum Phaser, Wellbrook ALA1530 Loop, Wellbrook Flag, Clifton Labs Active Whip.
“Nothing but blues and Elvis, and somebody else’s favorite song…”
On Aug 21, 2022, at 8:16 AM, Jim Sanford [email protected] wrote:
They overlooked 9K6 on the 9700 . . . . . only reason I don't have one.
They also left off 222
Jim
[email protected] mailto:[email protected]
On 8/21/2022 08:48, Dave Chasey - N9FN wrote:
I know there is only very preliminary info available so far, but in the videos I’ve found I haven’t heard anything that mentions satellite or full duplex cross band capabilities. If Icom is making this the ultimate VHF/UHF/SHF radio and even adding an analog ATV mode, surely they wouldn’t have overlooked the needs of the satellite crowd would they?
Dave – N9FN
From: Thomas Talley [email protected] mailto:[email protected] Sent: Saturday, August 20, 2022 12:01 PM To: [email protected] mailto:[email protected] Subject: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite or GOLF
Just an observation…
Looks like there will be an off the shelve “five and dime” radio in the near future:
New ICOM IC-905 VHF/UHF/uW transceiver http://www.southgatearc.org/news/2022/august/icom-ic905-transceiver.htm#.YwE... http://www.southgatearc.org/news/2022/august/icom-ic905-transceiver.htm#.YwEEdBzMJD8
Nice introduction video.
YMMV
Tom K0CFI
From: Matthias Bopp <[email protected] mailto:[email protected]> Sent: Monday, August 15, 2022 3:19 PM To: David G0MRF <[email protected] mailto:[email protected]>; [email protected] mailto:[email protected]; [email protected] mailto:[email protected] Subject: AW: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite or GOLF
Hi David,
yes, we did submit such a proposal but unfortunately ESA did not move ahead with it.
Maybe the proposal can be reused. If anyone is interested please send an Email to me.
Kind regards
Matthias
Von: David G0MRF via AMSAT-BB <[email protected] mailto:[email protected]> Gesendet: Dienstag, 16. August 2022 00:15 An: [email protected] mailto:[email protected]; [email protected] mailto:[email protected] Betreff: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite or GOLF
Hi Tom.
I believe AMSAT-DL currently has a proposal at ESA for an amateur payload in Lunar orbit as a rideshare.
David G0MRF
-----Original Message----- From: Thomas Talley <[email protected] mailto:[email protected]> To: AMSAT-BB <[email protected] mailto:[email protected]> Sent: Mon, 15 Aug 2022 20:22 Subject: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite or GOLF
Perhaps going off on a tangent.. However crazy idea(s)..
Crazy Idea One: Has there been any discission with the Commercial Lunar Payload Services (CLPS) vendors for a possible ride share to the moon? https://www.nasa.gov/content/commercial-lunar-payload-services https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.nasa.gov%2Fcontent%2Fcommercial-lunar-payload-services&data=05%7C01%7C%7Ce8a86e86d9fb4f2e0e3f08da7f0c327b%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637961987650423661%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=x5lU16o1SmkqACqvjmZYJVOkKnGE%2FOlCM79DvQcB6b8%3D&reserved=0
Crazy Idea Two: Back in the Apollo program, NASA would have astronauts deploy the Apollo Lunar Surface Experiments Package (ALSEP). When NASA returns to the Moon (i.e., Artemis), what is the possibility of developing a Solar powered Ham Radio Package that would be deployed on the moon surface?
Both crazy ideas would avoid the de-orbiting regulations.
73, Tom K0CFI
-----Original Message----- From: Jean Marc Momple <[email protected] mailto:[email protected]> Sent: Monday, August 15, 2022 11:05 To: [email protected] mailto:[email protected] Cc: AMSAT-BB <[email protected] mailto:[email protected]> Subject: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite or GOLF
Hi Mark,
Thanks for your input. Really appreciated.
Hopefully they will announce same asap, but more important for me is that HAMs will be on board. Thanks to the OM'S/ YL in China making this possible for the HAM community worldwide. Bravo Ms X and Mr X in China (also to ARISS and all others doing so for years) for your efforts to make the HAM community an active part of the great space adventure.
All the best, 73
Jean Marc (3B8DU)
On Aug 15, 2022, at 9:50 PM, Mark Johns, K0JM <[email protected] mailto:[email protected]> wrote:
The Chinese plans for amateur radio on their space station have been widely reported. However, China has not indicated when that operation will commence. -- Mark D. Johns, KØJM AMSAT Ambassador & News Service Editor Brooklyn Park, MN USA EN35hd
"Heaven goes by favor; if it went by merit, you would stay out and your dog would go in." ---Mark Twain
On Mon, Aug 15, 2022 at 12:45 PM Jean Marc Momple <[email protected] mailto:[email protected]> wrote:
Hi Graham,
Great news, thanks for sharing the info which I am copying to the BB so that all aware.
I take this opportunity to thank you and the coordination team at IARU for the MIR-SAT 1 (MO-112) project, you guys have been instrumental with the success of the mission with advices and suggestions. Thanks to you, Hans and all others.
73
Jean Marc (3B8DU)
On Aug 15, 2022, at 9:35 PM, Graham Shirville <[email protected] mailto:[email protected]> wrote:
Hi Jean Marc,
Just to give you this info about what the Chinese are up to!
https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww. amsatuk.me.uk http://amsatuk.me.uk/%2Fiaru%2Ffinished_detail.php%3Fserialnum%3D857&data =05%7C01%7C%7C28c9813cbbc1476816c308da7ee8bd63%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435 aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637961835330090836%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJ WIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C300 0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=iCUK%2FPNS%2Bw7Effk3RPyYlqYaUCZpIMz8yYkO0jKmz6w% 3D&reserved=0
best wishes
Graham
On 15/08/2022 16:55, Jean Marc Momple wrote:
Jim,
I am like you and don't like contest type of QSO but chatting with friends around the world and also technical experimentation.
As regards the regulations, your are right that this is probably the biggest hurdle to put our own GEO up there. Just trying to simplify the issues in a nutshell for easy understanding of all: first we will have to find a slot to cover an hemisphere (not cheap), then build the bird and find a launcher (extremely) expensive. More maintain the bird position in space for its life time (say 15 years) and finally park it in the graveyard, this operational part is probably beyond our capabilities and also the risks are huge e.g. (worst case) that we damage a commercial bird up there and all the possible legal and compensation issue.
Therefore, I reiterate that the QO-100 model is the best approach to have a global GEO network or at least one over Americas, AMSAT-DL & QSAR have done it and have the experience, they have the technical design of the transponders, know all possible issues and also now experienced of operating it. Thus we should use the knowledge acquired and copy with pride. Actually if it is Mitsubishi building a commercial GEO (as they build QO-100) for deployment over an interesting slot for us it would be even easier as they built the HAM transponders, contacting them can be an opportunity eventually as they can bridge the gap between us and their customers (just an idea), may be contacting all the GEO satellites manufacturers (not many anyway) is better as they may be able to put us in contact with their customers thus increasing chances of a ride.
I also again appeal to all AMSAT leaders to join force and have a common strategy for HAM in space, whatever the outcome HEO, GEO or LEO it will focus our efforts in one direction and enable to reinforce/keep our presence in space.
Another though, now that our Chinese friends have a space station it would be nice that they have some similar program such as ARISS for students and HAM radio on board, May be any B HAM leader could comment on same.
73
Jean Marc (3B8DU)
On Aug 15, 2022, at 5:37 AM, [email protected] mailto:[email protected] wrote:
I have realized the past few days that our AMSAT group has some really smart Hams! Thanks very much for the information. I have a few more questions. As I said before I would like to have more than a five minute QSO. I am not much of a contester, more a rag chewer. But I am afraid, if I understand most of you correctly, that is probably not going to happen in my life time? I reference K0JM's comments it's not so much the money but the regulatory environment that will stop this. I don't see this getting any easier in the next year, five years, or ten years. Does anybody else see anything different? And throwing in N8FGV's comments about the timing of the launch seems like a long shot as well. I spent a ton of money prior to AO-40 getting equipment ready to go in high hopes of having an AO-13 length run with so much more to do! I was terribly excited about this bird only to have it vanish before my eyes before I really got started. My last question is would a GOLF type satellite have the same obstacles as a Phase IV bird? If so I am probably going to have a-lot of satellite ham gear for sale real soon. Again thanks for your input.
WA5QAP
(licensed in 1966)
---------------------------- Original Message
Subject: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite From: "Daniel Schultz" <[email protected] mailto:[email protected]> Date: Fri, August 12, 2022 6:57 pm To: "AMSAT-BB" <[email protected] mailto:[email protected]>
Hosting our payload on a commercial GEO satellite would likely cost more than $10 million if the commercial satellite owner is to be fully compensated for the engineering modifications to their satellite and potential loss of transponder revenue from diverting satellite resources to a non-productive payload over a 15 year design lifetime. Offering a tax break will probably not make up this difference. You might have better luck seeking hosting on a government owned satellite such as the Air Force mission that was discussed by AMSAT a few years ago, but eventually fell through. This is where carefully cultivated personal relationships can come in, if you have any such friends in high places. OSCAR-1 got its launch approved back in 1961 because of a few highly placed hams in the Pentagon, so keep up with your networking and maybe it can happen.
Some orbits are inherently unstable, for example 63 degree Molniya orbits will reliably decay in a few years. The Late, Great OSCAR-13 provides a prime example of this. Their orbital lifetime is heavily sensitive to the time of launch, if AO-13 was launched a few hours earlier it would still be up there, a few hours later it would have reentered a couple of years after launch. This is easy to model in GMAT.
As a secondary payload, we don't get to choose the launch time, our only hope would be to use thrusters to make slight post-launch adjustments so the satellite reenters not too early (as AO-13 did) and not too late. I have been trying to figure out how to do this but have not had any results so far. If we have a dedicated launch all to ourselves we can choose a launch time that meets our requirements.
The NASA Cubesat that was recently grounded was aiming for a GTO launch, which has been mentioned as a possible target for an AMSAT mission because we could possibly get one cheap. Analysis of NORAD tracking data shows a lot of spent rocket bodies that have been in GTO for decades, so this might not be the best choice for a mission that needs a guaranteed reentry date.
Another possibility would be to place the satellite directly into the GEO graveyard orbit and let it slowly drift around the Earth. There are plenty of other HEO or Cislunar orbits that are not sensitive to orbital debris requirements and may not be commercially attractive but would work OK for our needs.
So yes, if we had $10 million in our bank account we could buy our way out of a lot of problems that only affect poor people who are lacking options.
73, Dan N8FGV
------ Original Message ------ Received: Fri, 12 Aug 2022 12:28:55 PM EDT
From: Paul Andrews <[email protected] mailto:[email protected]>
Subject: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite
Yes! Find a commercial GEOsat with room to support an amateur payload. Leverage commercial economics for launch and platform reliability. The commercial operator can donate (tax break) the value of the ham (STEM) capability. Maybe ham bands at 10 GHz and above. Simple bent pipe.
------ Original Message ------ Received: Fri, 12 Aug 2022 11:28:21 AM EDT
From: "Mark Johns, K0JM" <[email protected] mailto:[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite
The launch costs, while significant, are beside the point. The biggest issue with HEO satellites are the regulatory challenges. AMSAT and international partners could build and get ready for launch such a satellite within a few years, just as they did with AO-10, AO-13, and AO-40. But they would not get a license to put it into orbit in the current regulatory environment. The technical and financial challenges can be met, but the licensing requirements are killing us.
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Dave,
Talked with Ray Novak at the Huntsville Hamfest yesterday. He said that it was full duplex, if you by two of them, and that it is not aimed at the satellite market.
73,
Alan WA4SCA
From: Dave Chasey - N9FN [email protected] Sent: Sunday, August 21, 2022 07:49 To: 'Thomas Talley' [email protected]; [email protected] Subject: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite or GOLF
I know there is only very preliminary info available so far, but in the videos Ive found I havent heard anything that mentions satellite or full duplex cross band capabilities. If Icom is making this the ultimate VHF/UHF/SHF radio and even adding an analog ATV mode, surely they wouldnt have overlooked the needs of the satellite crowd would they?
Dave N9FN
From: Thomas Talley <[email protected] mailto:[email protected] > Sent: Saturday, August 20, 2022 12:01 PM To: [email protected] mailto:[email protected] Subject: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite or GOLF
Just an observation
Looks like there will be an off the shelve five and dime radio in the near future:
New ICOM IC-905 VHF/UHF/uW transceiver http://www.southgatearc.org/news/2022/august/icom-ic905-transceiver.htm#.YwE EdBzMJD8
Nice introduction video.
YMMV
Tom K0CFI
From: Matthias Bopp <[email protected] mailto:[email protected]
Sent: Monday, August 15, 2022 3:19 PM To: David G0MRF <[email protected] mailto:[email protected] >; [email protected] mailto:[email protected] ; [email protected] mailto:[email protected] Subject: AW: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite or GOLF
Hi David,
yes, we did submit such a proposal but unfortunately ESA did not move ahead with it.
Maybe the proposal can be reused. If anyone is interested please send an Email to me.
Kind regards
Matthias
Von: David G0MRF via AMSAT-BB <[email protected] mailto:[email protected] > Gesendet: Dienstag, 16. August 2022 00:15 An: [email protected] mailto:[email protected] ; [email protected] mailto:[email protected] Betreff: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite or GOLF
Hi Tom.
I believe AMSAT-DL currently has a proposal at ESA for an amateur payload in Lunar orbit as a rideshare.
David G0MRF
-----Original Message----- From: Thomas Talley <[email protected] mailto:[email protected] > To: AMSAT-BB <[email protected] mailto:[email protected] > Sent: Mon, 15 Aug 2022 20:22 Subject: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite or GOLF Perhaps going off on a tangent.. However crazy idea(s)..
Crazy Idea One: Has there been any discission with the Commercial Lunar Payload Services (CLPS) vendors for a possible ride share to the moon? https://www.nasa.gov/content/commercial-lunar-payload-services https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.nasa. gov%2Fcontent%2Fcommercial-lunar-payload-services&data=05%7C01%7C%7Ce8a86e86 d9fb4f2e0e3f08da7f0c327b%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637961 987650423661%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJ BTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=x5lU16o1SmkqACqvjmZYJVOkKn GE%2FOlCM79DvQcB6b8%3D&reserved=0
Crazy Idea Two: Back in the Apollo program, NASA would have astronauts deploy the Apollo Lunar Surface Experiments Package (ALSEP). When NASA returns to the Moon (i.e., Artemis), what is the possibility of developing a Solar powered Ham Radio Package that would be deployed on the moon surface?
Both crazy ideas would avoid the de-orbiting regulations.
73, Tom K0CFI
-----Original Message----- From: Jean Marc Momple <[email protected] mailto:[email protected] > Sent: Monday, August 15, 2022 11:05 To: [email protected] mailto:[email protected] Cc: AMSAT-BB <[email protected] mailto:[email protected] > Subject: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite or GOLF
Hi Mark,
Thanks for your input. Really appreciated.
Hopefully they will announce same asap, but more important for me is that HAMs will be on board. Thanks to the OM'S/ YL in China making this possible for the HAM community worldwide. Bravo Ms X and Mr X in China (also to ARISS and all others doing so for years) for your efforts to make the HAM community an active part of the great space adventure.
All the best, 73
Jean Marc (3B8DU)
On Aug 15, 2022, at 9:50 PM, Mark Johns, K0JM <[email protected]
mailto:[email protected] > wrote:
The Chinese plans for amateur radio on their space station have been widely reported. However, China has not indicated when that operation will commence. -- Mark D. Johns, KØJM AMSAT Ambassador & News Service Editor Brooklyn Park, MN USA EN35hd
"Heaven goes by favor; if it went by merit, you would stay out and your dog would go in." ---Mark Twain
On Mon, Aug 15, 2022 at 12:45 PM Jean Marc Momple <[email protected] mailto:[email protected] > wrote:
Hi Graham,
Great news, thanks for sharing the info which I am copying to the BB so
that all aware.
I take this opportunity to thank you and the coordination team at IARU
for the MIR-SAT 1 (MO-112) project, you guys have been instrumental with the success of the mission with advices and suggestions. Thanks to you, Hans and all others.
73
Jean Marc (3B8DU)
On Aug 15, 2022, at 9:35 PM, Graham Shirville <[email protected]
mailto:[email protected] > wrote:
Hi Jean Marc,
Just to give you this info about what the Chinese are up to!
https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww. amsatuk.me.uk%2Fiaru%2Ffinished_detail.php%3Fserialnum%3D857&data =05%7C01%7C%7C28c9813cbbc1476816c308da7ee8bd63%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435 aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637961835330090836%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJ WIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C300 0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=iCUK%2FPNS%2Bw7Effk3RPyYlqYaUCZpIMz8yYkO0jKmz6w% 3D&reserved=0
best wishes
Graham
On 15/08/2022 16:55, Jean Marc Momple wrote:
Jim,
I am like you and don't like contest type of QSO but chatting with
friends around the world and also technical experimentation.
As regards the regulations, your are right that this is probably the
biggest hurdle to put our own GEO up there. Just trying to simplify the issues in a nutshell for easy understanding of all: first we will have to find a slot to cover an hemisphere (not cheap), then build the bird and find a launcher (extremely) expensive. More maintain the bird position in space for its life time (say 15 years) and finally park it in the graveyard, this operational part is probably beyond our capabilities and also the risks are huge e.g. (worst case) that we damage a commercial bird up there and all the possible legal and compensation issue.
Therefore, I reiterate that the QO-100 model is the best approach to have
a global GEO network or at least one over Americas, AMSAT-DL & QSAR have done it and have the experience, they have the technical design of the transponders, know all possible issues and also now experienced of operating it. Thus we should use the knowledge acquired and copy with pride. Actually if it is Mitsubishi building a commercial GEO (as they build QO-100) for deployment over an interesting slot for us it would be even easier as they built the HAM transponders, contacting them can be an opportunity eventually as they can bridge the gap between us and their customers (just an idea), may be contacting all the GEO satellites manufacturers (not many anyway) is better as they may be able to put us in contact with their customers thus increasing chances of a ride.
I also again appeal to all AMSAT leaders to join force and have a common
strategy for HAM in space, whatever the outcome HEO, GEO or LEO it will focus our efforts in one direction and enable to reinforce/keep our presence in space.
Another though, now that our Chinese friends have a space station it
would be nice that they have some similar program such as ARISS for students and HAM radio on board, May be any B HAM leader could comment on same.
73
Jean Marc (3B8DU)
On Aug 15, 2022, at 5:37 AM, [email protected] mailto:[email protected] wrote:
I have realized the past few days that our AMSAT group has some really
smart Hams! Thanks very much for the information. I have a few more questions. As I said before I would like to have more than a five minute QSO. I am not much of a contester, more a rag chewer. But I am afraid, if I understand most of you correctly, that is probably not going to happen in my life time? I reference K0JM's comments it's not so much the money but the regulatory environment that will stop this. I don't see this getting any easier in the next year, five years, or ten years. Does anybody else see anything different? And throwing in N8FGV's comments about the timing of the launch seems like a long shot as well. I spent a ton of money prior to AO-40 getting equipment ready to go in high hopes of having an AO-13 length run with so much more to do! I was terribly excited about this bird only to have it vanish before my eyes before I really got started. My last question is would a GOLF type satellite have the same obstacles as a Phase IV bird? If so I am probably going to have a-lot of satellite ham gear for sale real soon. Again thanks for your input.
WA5QAP
(licensed in 1966)
---------------------------- Original Message
Subject: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite From: "Daniel Schultz" <[email protected] mailto:[email protected] > Date: Fri, August 12, 2022 6:57 pm To: "AMSAT-BB" <[email protected] mailto:[email protected] >
Hosting our payload on a commercial GEO satellite would likely cost more than $10 million if the commercial satellite owner is to be fully compensated for the engineering modifications to their satellite and potential loss of transponder revenue from diverting satellite resources to a non-productive payload over a 15 year design lifetime. Offering a tax break will probably not make up this difference. You might have better luck seeking hosting on a government owned satellite such as the Air Force mission that was discussed by AMSAT a few years ago, but eventually fell through. This is where carefully cultivated personal relationships can come in, if you have any such friends in high places. OSCAR-1 got its launch approved back in 1961 because of a few highly placed hams in the
Pentagon, so keep up with your networking and maybe it can happen.
Some orbits are inherently unstable, for example 63 degree Molniya orbits will reliably decay in a few years. The Late, Great OSCAR-13 provides a prime example of this. Their orbital lifetime is heavily sensitive to the time of launch, if AO-13 was launched a few hours earlier it would still be up there, a few hours later it would have reentered a couple of years after launch. This is easy to model in GMAT.
As a secondary payload, we don't get to choose the launch time, our only hope would be to use thrusters to make slight post-launch adjustments so the satellite reenters not too early (as AO-13 did) and not too late. I have been trying to figure out how to do this but have not had any results so far. If we have a dedicated launch all to ourselves we can choose a launch time that meets our
requirements.
The NASA Cubesat that was recently grounded was aiming for a GTO launch, which has been mentioned as a possible target for an AMSAT mission because we could possibly get one cheap. Analysis of NORAD tracking data shows a lot of spent rocket bodies that have been in GTO for decades, so this might not be the best choice for a mission that
needs a guaranteed reentry date.
Another possibility would be to place the satellite directly into the GEO graveyard orbit and let it slowly drift around the Earth. There are plenty of other HEO or Cislunar orbits that are not sensitive to orbital debris requirements and may not be commercially attractive but would work OK for our needs.
So yes, if we had $10 million in our bank account we could buy our way out of a lot of problems that only affect poor people who are
lacking options.
73, Dan N8FGV
------ Original Message ------ Received: Fri, 12 Aug 2022 12:28:55 PM EDT
From: Paul Andrews <[email protected] mailto:[email protected] >
Subject: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite
Yes! Find a commercial GEOsat with room to support an amateur payload. Leverage commercial economics for launch and platform reliability. The commercial operator can donate (tax break) the value of the ham (STEM) capability. Maybe ham bands at 10 GHz and above. Simple bent
pipe.
------ Original Message ------ Received: Fri, 12 Aug 2022 11:28:21 AM EDT
From: "Mark Johns, K0JM" <[email protected]
Subject: Re: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite
The launch costs, while significant, are beside the point. The biggest issue with HEO satellites are the regulatory challenges. AMSAT and international partners could build and get ready for launch such a satellite within a few years, just as they did with AO-10, AO-13, and AO-40. But they would not get a license to put it into orbit in the current regulatory environment. The technical and financial challenges can be met, but the licensing requirements are
killing us.
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Changed the subject line to something more appropriate. We now return to our complaining that Icom designed a new rig for three bands which have never been available prior. Still, we’re disappointed because they don’t meet exactly the niche needs of our segment of the hobby.
73,
Les Rayburn, N1LF Maylene, AL EM63nf AMSAT #38965, ARRL Life Member, CVHS Life Member, SVHF Member
On Aug 21, 2022, at 8:18 AM, Alan [email protected] wrote:
Dave,
Talked with Ray Novak at the Huntsville Hamfest yesterday. He said that it was full duplex, if you by two of them, and that it is not aimed at the satellite market.
73,
Alan WA4SCA
From: Dave Chasey - N9FN <[email protected] mailto:[email protected]> Sent: Sunday, August 21, 2022 07:49 To: 'Thomas Talley' <[email protected] mailto:[email protected]>; [email protected] mailto:[email protected] Subject: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite or GOLF
I know there is only very preliminary info available so far, but in the videos I’ve found I haven’t heard anything that mentions satellite or full duplex cross band capabilities. If Icom is making this the ultimate VHF/UHF/SHF radio and even adding an analog ATV mode, surely they wouldn’t have overlooked the needs of the satellite crowd would they?
Dave – N9FN
From: Thomas Talley <[email protected] mailto:[email protected]> Sent: Saturday, August 20, 2022 12:01 PM To: [email protected] mailto:[email protected] Subject: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite or GOLF
Just an observation…
Looks like there will be an off the shelve “five and dime” radio in the near future:
New ICOM IC-905 VHF/UHF/uW transceiver http://www.southgatearc.org/news/2022/august/icom-ic905-transceiver.htm#.YwE... http://www.southgatearc.org/news/2022/august/icom-ic905-transceiver.htm#.YwEEdBzMJD8
Nice introduction video.
YMMV
Tom K0CFI
From: Matthias Bopp <[email protected] mailto:[email protected]> Sent: Monday, August 15, 2022 3:19 PM To: David G0MRF <[email protected] mailto:[email protected]>; [email protected] mailto:[email protected]; [email protected] mailto:[email protected] Subject: AW: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite or GOLF
Hi David,
yes, we did submit such a proposal but unfortunately ESA did not move ahead with it.
Maybe the proposal can be reused. If anyone is interested please send an Email to me.
Kind regards
Matthias
Von: David G0MRF via AMSAT-BB <[email protected] mailto:[email protected]> Gesendet: Dienstag, 16. August 2022 00:15 An: [email protected] mailto:[email protected]; [email protected] mailto:[email protected] Betreff: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite or GOLF
Hi Tom.
I believe AMSAT-DL currently has a proposal at ESA for an amateur payload in Lunar orbit as a rideshare.
David G0MRF
-----Original Message----- From: Thomas Talley <[email protected] mailto:[email protected]> To: AMSAT-BB <[email protected] mailto:[email protected]> Sent: Mon, 15 Aug 2022 20:22 Subject: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite or GOLF
Perhaps going off on a tangent.. However crazy idea(s)..
Crazy Idea One: Has there been any discission with the Commercial Lunar Payload Services (CLPS) vendors for a possible ride share to the moon? https://www.nasa.gov/content/commercial-lunar-payload-services https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.nasa.gov%2Fcontent%2Fcommercial-lunar-payload-services&data=05%7C01%7C%7Ce8a86e86d9fb4f2e0e3f08da7f0c327b%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637961987650423661%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=x5lU16o1SmkqACqvjmZYJVOkKnGE%2FOlCM79DvQcB6b8%3D&reserved=0
Crazy Idea Two: Back in the Apollo program, NASA would have astronauts deploy the Apollo Lunar Surface Experiments Package (ALSEP). When NASA returns to the Moon (i.e., Artemis), what is the possibility of developing a Solar powered Ham Radio Package that would be deployed on the moon surface?
Both crazy ideas would avoid the de-orbiting regulations.
73, Tom K0CFI
-----Original Message----- From: Jean Marc Momple <[email protected] mailto:[email protected]> Sent: Monday, August 15, 2022 11:05 To: [email protected] mailto:[email protected] Cc: AMSAT-BB <[email protected] mailto:[email protected]> Subject: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite or GOLF
Hi Mark,
Thanks for your input. Really appreciated.
Hopefully they will announce same asap, but more important for me is that HAMs will be on board. Thanks to the OM'S/ YL in China making this possible for the HAM community worldwide. Bravo Ms X and Mr X in China (also to ARISS and all others doing so for years) for your efforts to make the HAM community an active part of the great space adventure.
All the best, 73
Jean Marc (3B8DU)
On Aug 15, 2022, at 9:50 PM, Mark Johns, K0JM <[email protected] mailto:[email protected]> wrote:
The Chinese plans for amateur radio on their space station have been widely reported. However, China has not indicated when that operation will commence. -- Mark D. Johns, KØJM AMSAT Ambassador & News Service Editor Brooklyn Park, MN USA EN35hd
"Heaven goes by favor; if it went by merit, you would stay out and your dog would go in." ---Mark Twain
On Mon, Aug 15, 2022 at 12:45 PM Jean Marc Momple <[email protected] mailto:[email protected]> wrote:
Hi Graham,
Great news, thanks for sharing the info which I am copying to the BB so that all aware.
I take this opportunity to thank you and the coordination team at IARU for the MIR-SAT 1 (MO-112) project, you guys have been instrumental with the success of the mission with advices and suggestions. Thanks to you, Hans and all others.
73
Jean Marc (3B8DU)
On Aug 15, 2022, at 9:35 PM, Graham Shirville <[email protected] mailto:[email protected]> wrote:
Hi Jean Marc,
Just to give you this info about what the Chinese are up to!
https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww. amsatuk.me.uk http://amsatuk.me.uk/%2Fiaru%2Ffinished_detail.php%3Fserialnum%3D857&data =05%7C01%7C%7C28c9813cbbc1476816c308da7ee8bd63%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435 aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637961835330090836%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJ WIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C300 0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=iCUK%2FPNS%2Bw7Effk3RPyYlqYaUCZpIMz8yYkO0jKmz6w% 3D&reserved=0
best wishes
Graham
On 15/08/2022 16:55, Jean Marc Momple wrote:
Jim,
I am like you and don't like contest type of QSO but chatting with friends around the world and also technical experimentation.
As regards the regulations, your are right that this is probably the biggest hurdle to put our own GEO up there. Just trying to simplify the issues in a nutshell for easy understanding of all: first we will have to find a slot to cover an hemisphere (not cheap), then build the bird and find a launcher (extremely) expensive. More maintain the bird position in space for its life time (say 15 years) and finally park it in the graveyard, this operational part is probably beyond our capabilities and also the risks are huge e.g. (worst case) that we damage a commercial bird up there and all the possible legal and compensation issue.
Therefore, I reiterate that the QO-100 model is the best approach to have a global GEO network or at least one over Americas, AMSAT-DL & QSAR have done it and have the experience, they have the technical design of the transponders, know all possible issues and also now experienced of operating it. Thus we should use the knowledge acquired and copy with pride. Actually if it is Mitsubishi building a commercial GEO (as they build QO-100) for deployment over an interesting slot for us it would be even easier as they built the HAM transponders, contacting them can be an opportunity eventually as they can bridge the gap between us and their customers (just an idea), may be contacting all the GEO satellites manufacturers (not many anyway) is better as they may be able to put us in contact with their customers thus increasing chances of a ride.
I also again appeal to all AMSAT leaders to join force and have a common strategy for HAM in space, whatever the outcome HEO, GEO or LEO it will focus our efforts in one direction and enable to reinforce/keep our presence in space.
Another though, now that our Chinese friends have a space station it would be nice that they have some similar program such as ARISS for students and HAM radio on board, May be any B HAM leader could comment on same.
73
Jean Marc (3B8DU)
On Aug 15, 2022, at 5:37 AM, [email protected] mailto:[email protected] wrote:
I have realized the past few days that our AMSAT group has some really smart Hams! Thanks very much for the information. I have a few more questions. As I said before I would like to have more than a five minute QSO. I am not much of a contester, more a rag chewer. But I am afraid, if I understand most of you correctly, that is probably not going to happen in my life time? I reference K0JM's comments it's not so much the money but the regulatory environment that will stop this. I don't see this getting any easier in the next year, five years, or ten years. Does anybody else see anything different? And throwing in N8FGV's comments about the timing of the launch seems like a long shot as well. I spent a ton of money prior to AO-40 getting equipment ready to go in high hopes of having an AO-13 length run with so much more to do! I was terribly excited about this bird only to have it vanish before my eyes before I really got started. My last question is would a GOLF type satellite have the same obstacles as a Phase IV bird? If so I am probably going to have a-lot of satellite ham gear for sale real soon. Again thanks for your input.
WA5QAP
(licensed in 1966)
---------------------------- Original Message
Subject: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite From: "Daniel Schultz" <[email protected] mailto:[email protected]> Date: Fri, August 12, 2022 6:57 pm To: "AMSAT-BB" <[email protected] mailto:[email protected]>
Hosting our payload on a commercial GEO satellite would likely cost more than $10 million if the commercial satellite owner is to be fully compensated for the engineering modifications to their satellite and potential loss of transponder revenue from diverting satellite resources to a non-productive payload over a 15 year design lifetime. Offering a tax break will probably not make up this difference. You might have better luck seeking hosting on a government owned satellite such as the Air Force mission that was discussed by AMSAT a few years ago, but eventually fell through. This is where carefully cultivated personal relationships can come in, if you have any such friends in high places. OSCAR-1 got its launch approved back in 1961 because of a few highly placed hams in the Pentagon, so keep up with your networking and maybe it can happen.
Some orbits are inherently unstable, for example 63 degree Molniya orbits will reliably decay in a few years. The Late, Great OSCAR-13 provides a prime example of this. Their orbital lifetime is heavily sensitive to the time of launch, if AO-13 was launched a few hours earlier it would still be up there, a few hours later it would have reentered a couple of years after launch. This is easy to model in GMAT.
As a secondary payload, we don't get to choose the launch time, our only hope would be to use thrusters to make slight post-launch adjustments so the satellite reenters not too early (as AO-13 did) and not too late. I have been trying to figure out how to do this but have not had any results so far. If we have a dedicated launch all to ourselves we can choose a launch time that meets our requirements.
The NASA Cubesat that was recently grounded was aiming for a GTO launch, which has been mentioned as a possible target for an AMSAT mission because we could possibly get one cheap. Analysis of NORAD tracking data shows a lot of spent rocket bodies that have been in GTO for decades, so this might not be the best choice for a mission that needs a guaranteed reentry date.
Another possibility would be to place the satellite directly into the GEO graveyard orbit and let it slowly drift around the Earth. There are plenty of other HEO or Cislunar orbits that are not sensitive to orbital debris requirements and may not be commercially attractive but would work OK for our needs.
So yes, if we had $10 million in our bank account we could buy our way out of a lot of problems that only affect poor people who are lacking options.
73, Dan N8FGV
------ Original Message ------ Received: Fri, 12 Aug 2022 12:28:55 PM EDT
From: Paul Andrews <[email protected] mailto:[email protected]>
Subject: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite
Yes! Find a commercial GEOsat with room to support an amateur payload. Leverage commercial economics for launch and platform reliability. The commercial operator can donate (tax break) the value of the ham (STEM) capability. Maybe ham bands at 10 GHz and above. Simple bent pipe.
------ Original Message ------ Received: Fri, 12 Aug 2022 11:28:21 AM EDT
From: "Mark Johns, K0JM" <[email protected] mailto:[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite
The launch costs, while significant, are beside the point. The biggest issue with HEO satellites are the regulatory challenges. AMSAT and international partners could build and get ready for launch such a satellite within a few years, just as they did with AO-10, AO-13, and AO-40. But they would not get a license to put it into orbit in the current regulatory environment. The technical and financial challenges can be met, but the licensing requirements are killing us.
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On Sun, Aug 21, 2022 at 7:49 AM Dave Chasey - N9FN [email protected] wrote:
I know there is only very preliminary info available so far, but in the videos I’ve found I haven’t heard anything that mentions satellite or full duplex cross band capabilities. If Icom is making this the ultimate VHF/UHF/SHF radio and even adding an analog ATV mode, surely they wouldn’t have overlooked the needs of the satellite crowd would they?
Dave – N9FN
Full duplex or not…
Would two of these radios, stacked, work as a crossband repeater ? This has been done in the past with 2m/70cm crossband repeaters… Bernard, KC9SGV
*From:* Thomas Talley [email protected] *Sent:* Saturday, August 20, 2022 12:01 PM *To:* [email protected] *Subject:* [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite or GOLF
Just an observation…
Looks like there will be an off the shelve “five and dime” radio in the near future:
New ICOM IC-905 VHF/UHF/uW transceiver
http://www.southgatearc.org/news/2022/august/icom-ic905-transceiver.htm#.YwE...
Nice introduction video.
YMMV
Tom K0CFI
*From:* Matthias Bopp [email protected] *Sent:* Monday, August 15, 2022 3:19 PM *To:* David G0MRF [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected] *Subject:* AW: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite or GOLF
Hi David,
yes, we did submit such a proposal but unfortunately ESA did not move ahead with it.
Maybe the proposal can be reused. If anyone is interested please send an Email to me.
Kind regards
Matthias
*Von:* David G0MRF via AMSAT-BB [email protected] *Gesendet:* Dienstag, 16. August 2022 00:15 *An:* [email protected]; [email protected] *Betreff:* [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite or GOLF
Hi Tom.
I believe AMSAT-DL currently has a proposal at ESA for an amateur payload in Lunar orbit as a rideshare.
David G0MRF
-----Original Message----- From: Thomas Talley [email protected] To: AMSAT-BB [email protected] Sent: Mon, 15 Aug 2022 20:22 Subject: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite or GOLF
Perhaps going off on a tangent.. However crazy idea(s)..
Crazy Idea One: Has there been any discission with the Commercial Lunar Payload Services (CLPS) vendors for a possible ride share to the moon?
https://www.nasa.gov/content/commercial-lunar-payload-services https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.nasa.gov%2Fcontent%2Fcommercial-lunar-payload-services&data=05%7C01%7C%7Ce8a86e86d9fb4f2e0e3f08da7f0c327b%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637961987650423661%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=x5lU16o1SmkqACqvjmZYJVOkKnGE%2FOlCM79DvQcB6b8%3D&reserved=0
Crazy Idea Two: Back in the Apollo program, NASA would have astronauts deploy the Apollo Lunar Surface Experiments Package (ALSEP). When NASA returns to the Moon (i.e., Artemis), what is the possibility of developing a Solar powered Ham Radio Package that would be deployed on the moon surface?
Both crazy ideas would avoid the de-orbiting regulations.
73, Tom K0CFI
-----Original Message-----
From: Jean Marc Momple [email protected]
Sent: Monday, August 15, 2022 11:05
Cc: AMSAT-BB [email protected]
Subject: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite or GOLF
Hi Mark,
Thanks for your input. Really appreciated.
Hopefully they will announce same asap, but more important for me is that HAMs will be on board. Thanks to the OM'S/ YL in China making this possible for the HAM community worldwide. Bravo Ms X and Mr X in China (also to ARISS and all others doing so for years) for your efforts to make the HAM community an active part of the great space adventure.
All the best, 73
Jean Marc (3B8DU)
On Aug 15, 2022, at 9:50 PM, Mark Johns, K0JM [email protected]
wrote:
The Chinese plans for amateur radio on their space station have been
widely reported. However, China has not indicated when that operation
will commence.
--
Mark D. Johns, KØJM
AMSAT Ambassador & News Service Editor
Brooklyn Park, MN USA EN35hd
"Heaven goes by favor; if it went by merit,
you would stay out and your dog would go in."
---Mark Twain
On Mon, Aug 15, 2022 at 12:45 PM Jean Marc Momple
[email protected] wrote:
Hi Graham,
Great news, thanks for sharing the info which I am copying to the BB
so that all aware.
I take this opportunity to thank you and the coordination team at IARU
for the MIR-SAT 1 (MO-112) project, you guys have been instrumental with the success of the mission with advices and suggestions. Thanks to you, Hans and all others.
73
Jean Marc (3B8DU)
On Aug 15, 2022, at 9:35 PM, Graham Shirville [email protected]
wrote:
Hi Jean Marc,
Just to give you this info about what the Chinese are up to!
https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.
amsatuk.me.uk%2Fiaru%2Ffinished_detail.php%3Fserialnum%3D857&data
=05%7C01%7C%7C28c9813cbbc1476816c308da7ee8bd63%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435
aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637961835330090836%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJ
WIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C300
0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=iCUK%2FPNS%2Bw7Effk3RPyYlqYaUCZpIMz8yYkO0jKmz6w%
3D&reserved=0
best wishes
Graham
On 15/08/2022 16:55, Jean Marc Momple wrote:
Jim,
I am like you and don't like contest type of QSO but chatting with
friends around the world and also technical experimentation.
As regards the regulations, your are right that this is probably the
biggest hurdle to put our own GEO up there. Just trying to simplify the issues in a nutshell for easy understanding of all: first we will have to find a slot to cover an hemisphere (not cheap), then build the bird and find a launcher (extremely) expensive. More maintain the bird position in space for its life time (say 15 years) and finally park it in the graveyard, this operational part is probably beyond our capabilities and also the risks are huge e.g. (worst case) that we damage a commercial bird up there and all the possible legal and compensation issue.
Therefore, I reiterate that the QO-100 model is the best approach to
have a global GEO network or at least one over Americas, AMSAT-DL & QSAR have done it and have the experience, they have the technical design of the transponders, know all possible issues and also now experienced of operating it. Thus we should use the knowledge acquired and copy with pride. Actually if it is Mitsubishi building a commercial GEO (as they build QO-100) for deployment over an interesting slot for us it would be even easier as they built the HAM transponders, contacting them can be an opportunity eventually as they can bridge the gap between us and their customers (just an idea), may be contacting all the GEO satellites manufacturers (not many anyway) is better as they may be able to put us in contact with their customers thus increasing chances of a ride.
I also again appeal to all AMSAT leaders to join force and have a
common strategy for HAM in space, whatever the outcome HEO, GEO or LEO it will focus our efforts in one direction and enable to reinforce/keep our presence in space.
Another though, now that our Chinese friends have a space station it
would be nice that they have some similar program such as ARISS for students and HAM radio on board, May be any B HAM leader could comment on same.
73
Jean Marc (3B8DU)
On Aug 15, 2022, at 5:37 AM, [email protected] wrote:
I have realized the past few days that our AMSAT group has some really
smart Hams! Thanks very much for the information. I have a few more questions. As I said before I would like to have more than a five minute QSO. I am not much of a contester, more a rag chewer. But I am afraid, if I understand most of you correctly, that is probably not going to happen in my life time? I reference K0JM's comments it's not so much the money but the regulatory environment that will stop this. I don't see this getting any easier in the next year, five years, or ten years. Does anybody else see anything different? And throwing in N8FGV's comments about the timing of the launch seems like a long shot as well. I spent a ton of money prior to AO-40 getting equipment ready to go in high hopes of having an AO-13 length run with so much more to do! I was terribly excited about this bird only to have it vanish before my eyes before I really got started. My last question is would a GOLF type satellite have the same obstacles as a Phase IV bird? If so I am probably going to have a-lot of satellite ham gear for sale real soon. Again thanks for your input.
WA5QAP
(licensed in 1966)
---------------------------- Original Message
Subject: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite
From: "Daniel Schultz" [email protected]
Date: Fri, August 12, 2022 6:57 pm
To: "AMSAT-BB" [email protected]
Hosting our payload on a commercial GEO satellite would likely cost
more than
$10 million if the commercial satellite owner is to be fully
compensated for the engineering modifications to their satellite and
potential loss of transponder revenue from diverting satellite
resources to a non-productive payload over a 15 year design
lifetime. Offering a tax break will probably not make up this
difference. You might have better luck seeking hosting on a
government owned satellite such as the Air Force mission that was
discussed by AMSAT a few years ago, but eventually fell through.
This is where carefully cultivated personal relationships can come
in, if you have any such friends in high places. OSCAR-1 got its
launch approved back in 1961 because of a few highly placed hams in
the Pentagon, so keep up with your networking and maybe it can happen.
Some orbits are inherently unstable, for example 63 degree Molniya
orbits will reliably decay in a few years. The Late, Great OSCAR-13
provides a prime example of this. Their orbital lifetime is heavily
sensitive to the time of launch, if AO-13 was launched a few hours
earlier it would still be up there, a few hours later it would have
reentered a couple of years after launch. This is easy to model in
GMAT.
As a secondary payload, we don't get to choose the launch time, our
only hope would be to use thrusters to make slight post-launch
adjustments so the satellite reenters not too early (as AO-13 did)
and not too late. I have been trying to figure out how to do this
but have not had any results so far. If we have a dedicated launch
all to ourselves we can choose a launch time that meets our
requirements.
The NASA Cubesat that was recently grounded was aiming for a GTO
launch, which has been mentioned as a possible target for an AMSAT
mission because we could possibly get one cheap. Analysis of NORAD
tracking data shows a lot of spent rocket bodies that have been in
GTO for decades, so this might not be the best choice for a mission
that needs a guaranteed reentry date.
Another possibility would be to place the satellite directly into
the GEO graveyard orbit and let it slowly drift around the Earth.
There are plenty of other HEO or Cislunar orbits that are not
sensitive to orbital debris requirements and may not be commercially
attractive but would work OK for our needs.
So yes, if we had $10 million in our bank account we could buy our
way out of a lot of problems that only affect poor people who are
lacking options.
73, Dan N8FGV
------ Original Message ------
Received: Fri, 12 Aug 2022 12:28:55 PM EDT
From: Paul Andrews [email protected]
Subject: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite
Yes! Find a commercial GEOsat with room to support an amateur payload.
Leverage commercial economics for launch and platform reliability.
The commercial operator can donate (tax break) the value of the ham
(STEM) capability. Maybe ham bands at 10 GHz and above. Simple bent
pipe.
------ Original Message ------
Received: Fri, 12 Aug 2022 11:28:21 AM EDT
From: "Mark Johns, K0JM" [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite
The launch costs, while significant, are beside the point. The
biggest issue with HEO satellites are the regulatory challenges.
AMSAT and international partners could build and get ready for
launch such a satellite within a few years, just as they did with
AO-10, AO-13, and AO-40. But they would not get a license to put it
into orbit in the current regulatory environment. The technical and
financial challenges can be met, but the licensing requirements are
killing us.
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Hi Dave I was searching for those features as well.Also, from this side of the pond, I heard mention that the 10GHz transverter plugs into the 2.4GHz output from the RF unit.If that's correct, then the Icom 905 will not be able to transmit on 2.4G and receive on 10GHz at the same time.....So will be of almost zero use for QO-100. Mind you, this is also the company that brought you the IC9700 that cannot transmit or receive 9600 data. Oh well.
73 David
-----Original Message----- From: Dave Chasey - N9FN [email protected] To: 'Thomas Talley' [email protected]; [email protected] Sent: Sun, 21 Aug 2022 12:48 Subject: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite or GOLF
<!--#yiv4533535732 _filtered {} _filtered {}#yiv4533535732 #yiv4533535732 p.yiv4533535732MsoNormal, #yiv4533535732 li.yiv4533535732MsoNormal, #yiv4533535732 div.yiv4533535732MsoNormal {margin:0in;font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif;}#yiv4533535732 a:link, #yiv4533535732 span.yiv4533535732MsoHyperlink {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv4533535732 span.yiv4533535732EmailStyle20 {font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif;color:windowtext;}#yiv4533535732 .yiv4533535732MsoChpDefault {font-size:10.0pt;} _filtered {}#yiv4533535732 div.yiv4533535732WordSection1 {}--> I know there is only very preliminary info available so far, but in the videos I’ve found I haven’t heard anything that mentions satellite or full duplex cross band capabilities. If Icom is making this the ultimate VHF/UHF/SHF radio and even adding an analog ATV mode, surely they wouldn’t have overlooked the needs of the satellite crowd would they? Dave – N9FN From: Thomas Talley [email protected] Sent: Saturday, August 20, 2022 12:01 PM To: [email protected] Subject: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite or GOLF Just an observation… Looks like there will be an off the shelve “five and dime” radio in the near future: New ICOM IC-905 VHF/UHF/uW transceiverhttp://www.southgatearc.org/news/2022/august/icom-ic905-transceiver.htm#.YwE... Nice introduction video. YMMV Tom K0CFI From: Matthias Bopp [email protected] Sent: Monday, August 15, 2022 3:19 PM To: David G0MRF [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected] Subject: AW: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite or GOLF Hi David, yes, we did submit such a proposal but unfortunately ESA did not move ahead with it. Maybe the proposal can be reused. If anyone is interested please send an Email to me. Kind regards Matthias www.dd1us.de Von: David G0MRF via AMSAT-BB [email protected] Gesendet: Dienstag, 16. August 2022 00:15 An: [email protected]; [email protected] Betreff: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite or GOLF Hi Tom. I believe AMSAT-DL currently has a proposal at ESA for an amateur payload in Lunar orbit as a rideshare. David G0MRF -----Original Message----- From: Thomas Talley [email protected] To: AMSAT-BB [email protected] Sent: Mon, 15 Aug 2022 20:22 Subject: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite or GOLFPerhaps going off on a tangent.. However crazy idea(s).. Crazy Idea One: Has there been any discission with the Commercial Lunar Payload Services (CLPS) vendors for a possible ride share to the moon? https://www.nasa.gov/content/commercial-lunar-payload-services Crazy Idea Two: Back in the Apollo program, NASA would have astronauts deploy the Apollo Lunar Surface Experiments Package (ALSEP). When NASA returns to the Moon (i.e., Artemis), what is the possibility of developing a Solar powered Ham Radio Package that would be deployed on the moon surface? Both crazy ideas would avoid the de-orbiting regulations. 73, Tom K0CFI -----Original Message-----From: Jean Marc Momple [email protected] Sent: Monday, August 15, 2022 11:05To: [email protected]: AMSAT-BB [email protected]Subject: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite or GOLF Hi Mark, Thanks for your input. Really appreciated. Hopefully they will announce same asap, but more important for me is that HAMs will be on board. Thanks to the OM'S/ YL in China making this possible for the HAM community worldwide. Bravo Ms X and Mr X in China (also to ARISS and all others doing so for years) for your efforts to make the HAM community an active part of the great space adventure. All the best, 73 Jean Marc (3B8DU) > On Aug 15, 2022, at 9:50 PM, Mark Johns, K0JM [email protected] wrote:> > The Chinese plans for amateur radio on their space station have been > widely reported. However, China has not indicated when that operation > will commence.> --> Mark D. Johns, KØJM> AMSAT Ambassador & News Service Editor> Brooklyn Park, MN USA EN35hd> -----------------------------------------------> "Heaven goes by favor; if it went by merit,> you would stay out and your dog would go in."> ---Mark Twain> > On Mon, Aug 15, 2022 at 12:45 PM Jean Marc Momple > [email protected] wrote:>> >> Hi Graham,>> >> Great news, thanks for sharing the info which I am copying to the BB so that all aware.>> >> I take this opportunity to thank you and the coordination team at IARU for the MIR-SAT 1 (MO-112) project, you guys have been instrumental with the success of the mission with advices and suggestions. Thanks to you, Hans and all others.>> >> 73>> >> >> Jean Marc (3B8DU)>> >> >> On Aug 15, 2022, at 9:35 PM, Graham Shirville [email protected] wrote:>> >> Hi Jean Marc,>> >> Just to give you this info about what the Chinese are up to!>> >> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.%3E%3E amsatuk.me.uk%2Fiaru%2Ffinished_detail.php%3Fserialnum%3D857&data>> =05%7C01%7C%7C28c9813cbbc1476816c308da7ee8bd63%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435>> aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637961835330090836%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJ>> WIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C300>> 0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=iCUK%2FPNS%2Bw7Effk3RPyYlqYaUCZpIMz8yYkO0jKmz6w%>> 3D&reserved=0>> >> best wishes>> >> Graham>> >> On 15/08/2022 16:55, Jean Marc Momple wrote:>> >> Jim,>> >> I am like you and don't like contest type of QSO but chatting with friends around the world and also technical experimentation.>> >> As regards the regulations, your are right that this is probably the biggest hurdle to put our own GEO up there. Just trying to simplify the issues in a nutshell for easy understanding of all: first we will have to find a slot to cover an hemisphere (not cheap), then build the bird and find a launcher (extremely) expensive. More maintain the bird position in space for its life time (say 15 years) and finally park it in the graveyard, this operational part is probably beyond our capabilities and also the risks are huge e.g. (worst case) that we damage a commercial bird up there and all the possible legal and compensation issue.>> >> Therefore, I reiterate that the QO-100 model is the best approach to have a global GEO network or at least one over Americas, AMSAT-DL & QSAR have done it and have the experience, they have the technical design of the transponders, know all possible issues and also now experienced of operating it. Thus we should use the knowledge acquired and copy with pride. Actually if it is Mitsubishi building a commercial GEO (as they build QO-100) for deployment over an interesting slot for us it would be even easier as they built the HAM transponders, contacting them can be an opportunity eventually as they can bridge the gap between us and their customers (just an idea), may be contacting all the GEO satellites manufacturers (not many anyway) is better as they may be able to put us in contact with their customers thus increasing chances of a ride.>> >> I also again appeal to all AMSAT leaders to join force and have a common strategy for HAM in space, whatever the outcome HEO, GEO or LEO it will focus our efforts in one direction and enable to reinforce/keep our presence in space.>> >> Another though, now that our Chinese friends have a space station it would be nice that they have some similar program such as ARISS for students and HAM radio on board, May be any B HAM leader could comment on same.>> >> 73>> >> >> Jean Marc (3B8DU)>> >> >> >> On Aug 15, 2022, at 5:37 AM, [email protected] wrote:>> >> I have realized the past few days that our AMSAT group has some really smart Hams! Thanks very much for the information. I have a few more questions. As I said before I would like to have more than a five minute QSO. I am not much of a contester, more a rag chewer. But I am afraid, if I understand most of you correctly, that is probably not going to happen in my life time? I reference K0JM's comments it's not so much the money but the regulatory environment that will stop this. I don't see this getting any easier in the next year, five years, or ten years. Does anybody else see anything different? And throwing in N8FGV's comments about the timing of the launch seems like a long shot as well. I spent a ton of money prior to AO-40 getting equipment ready to go in high hopes of having an AO-13 length run with so much more to do! I was terribly excited about this bird only to have it vanish before my eyes before I really got started. My last question is would a GOLF type satellite have the same obstacles as a Phase IV bird? If so I am probably going to have a-lot of satellite ham gear for sale real soon. Again thanks for your input.>> >> WA5QAP>> >> (licensed in 1966)>> >> >> >> >> ---------------------------- Original Message >> ---------------------------->> Subject: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite>> From: "Daniel Schultz" [email protected]>> Date: Fri, August 12, 2022 6:57 pm>> To: "AMSAT-BB" [email protected]>> --------------------------------------------------------------------->> ----->> >>> Hosting our payload on a commercial GEO satellite would likely cost >>> more than>>> $10 million if the commercial satellite owner is to be fully >>> compensated for the engineering modifications to their satellite and >>> potential loss of transponder revenue from diverting satellite >>> resources to a non-productive payload over a 15 year design >>> lifetime. Offering a tax break will probably not make up this >>> difference. You might have better luck seeking hosting on a >>> government owned satellite such as the Air Force mission that was >>> discussed by AMSAT a few years ago, but eventually fell through. >>> This is where carefully cultivated personal relationships can come >>> in, if you have any such friends in high places. OSCAR-1 got its >>> launch approved back in 1961 because of a few highly placed hams in the Pentagon, so keep up with your networking and maybe it can happen.>>> >>> Some orbits are inherently unstable, for example 63 degree Molniya >>> orbits will reliably decay in a few years. The Late, Great OSCAR-13 >>> provides a prime example of this. Their orbital lifetime is heavily >>> sensitive to the time of launch, if AO-13 was launched a few hours >>> earlier it would still be up there, a few hours later it would have >>> reentered a couple of years after launch. This is easy to model in GMAT.>>> >>> As a secondary payload, we don't get to choose the launch time, our >>> only hope would be to use thrusters to make slight post-launch >>> adjustments so the satellite reenters not too early (as AO-13 did) >>> and not too late. I have been trying to figure out how to do this >>> but have not had any results so far. If we have a dedicated launch >>> all to ourselves we can choose a launch time that meets our requirements.>>> >>> The NASA Cubesat that was recently grounded was aiming for a GTO >>> launch, which has been mentioned as a possible target for an AMSAT >>> mission because we could possibly get one cheap. Analysis of NORAD >>> tracking data shows a lot of spent rocket bodies that have been in >>> GTO for decades, so this might not be the best choice for a mission that needs a guaranteed reentry date.>>> >>> Another possibility would be to place the satellite directly into >>> the GEO graveyard orbit and let it slowly drift around the Earth. >>> There are plenty of other HEO or Cislunar orbits that are not >>> sensitive to orbital debris requirements and may not be commercially >>> attractive but would work OK for our needs.>>> >>> So yes, if we had $10 million in our bank account we could buy our >>> way out of a lot of problems that only affect poor people who are lacking options.>>> >>> 73, Dan N8FGV>>> >>> >>> ------ Original Message ------>>> Received: Fri, 12 Aug 2022 12:28:55 PM EDT>>> >> From: Paul Andrews [email protected]>>> Subject: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite>>> >>>> Yes! Find a commercial GEOsat with room to support an amateur payload.>>>> Leverage commercial economics for launch and platform reliability. >>>> The commercial operator can donate (tax break) the value of the ham >>>> (STEM) capability. Maybe ham bands at 10 GHz and above. Simple bent pipe.>>> >>> >>> ------ Original Message ------>>> Received: Fri, 12 Aug 2022 11:28:21 AM EDT>>> >> From: "Mark Johns, K0JM" [email protected]>>> Subject: Re: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite>>> >>>> The launch costs, while significant, are beside the point. The >>>> biggest issue with HEO satellites are the regulatory challenges. >>>> AMSAT and international partners could build and get ready for >>>> launch such a satellite within a few years, just as they did with >>>> AO-10, AO-13, and AO-40. But they would not get a license to put it >>>> into orbit in the current regulatory environment. The technical and >>>> financial challenges can be met, but the licensing requirements are killing us.>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ----------------------------------------------------------->>> >>> Sent via AMSAT-BB(a)amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum >>> available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring >>> membership. 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The pictures published so far do look like the 10GHz transverter is driven from the RF unit’s 2.4 port. Holding my breath over the crossband capability. But the 705 form factor on the 905 control unit doesn’t augur well in that department. This has the feel of a one-band-at-a-time unit. But we’ll see… Ray KN2K
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On Sunday, August 21, 2022, 10:05 AM, David G0MRF via AMSAT-BB [email protected] wrote:
Hi Dave I was searching for those features as well.Also, from this side of the pond, I heard mention that the 10GHz transverter plugs into the 2.4GHz output from the RF unit.If that's correct, then the Icom 905 will not be able to transmit on 2.4G and receive on 10GHz at the same time.....So will be of almost zero use for QO-100. Mind you, this is also the company that brought you the IC9700 that cannot transmit or receive 9600 data. Oh well.
73 David
-----Original Message----- From: Dave Chasey - N9FN [email protected] To: 'Thomas Talley' [email protected]; [email protected] Sent: Sun, 21 Aug 2022 12:48 Subject: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite or GOLF
<!--#yiv4365930805 filtered {}#yiv4365930805 filtered {}#yiv4365930805 p.yiv4365930805MsoNormal, #yiv4365930805 li.yiv4365930805MsoNormal, #yiv4365930805 div.yiv4365930805MsoNormal {margin:0in;font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif;}#yiv4365930805 a:link, #yiv4365930805 span.yiv4365930805MsoHyperlink {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv4365930805 span.yiv4365930805EmailStyle20 {font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif;color:windowtext;}#yiv4365930805 .yiv4365930805MsoChpDefault {font-size:10.0pt;}#yiv4365930805 filtered {}#yiv4365930805 div.yiv4365930805WordSection1 {}--> I know there is only very preliminary info available so far, but in the videos I’ve found I haven’t heard anything that mentions satellite or full duplex cross band capabilities. If Icom is making this the ultimate VHF/UHF/SHF radio and even adding an analog ATV mode, surely they wouldn’t have overlooked the needs of the satellite crowd would they? Dave – N9FN From: Thomas Talley [email protected] Sent: Saturday, August 20, 2022 12:01 PM To: [email protected] Subject: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite or GOLF Just an observation… Looks like there will be an off the shelve “five and dime” radio in the near future: New ICOM IC-905 VHF/UHF/uW transceiverhttp://www.southgatearc.org/news/2022/august/icom-ic905-transceiver.htm#.YwE... Nice introduction video. YMMV Tom K0CFI From: Matthias Bopp [email protected] Sent: Monday, August 15, 2022 3:19 PM To: David G0MRF [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected] Subject: AW: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite or GOLF Hi David, yes, we did submit such a proposal but unfortunately ESA did not move ahead with it. Maybe the proposal can be reused. If anyone is interested please send an Email to me. Kind regards Matthias www.dd1us.de Von: David G0MRF via AMSAT-BB [email protected] Gesendet: Dienstag, 16. August 2022 00:15 An: [email protected]; [email protected] Betreff: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite or GOLF Hi Tom. I believe AMSAT-DL currently has a proposal at ESA for an amateur payload in Lunar orbit as a rideshare. David G0MRF -----Original Message----- From: Thomas Talley [email protected] To: AMSAT-BB [email protected] Sent: Mon, 15 Aug 2022 20:22 Subject: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite or GOLFPerhaps going off on a tangent.. However crazy idea(s).. Crazy Idea One: Has there been any discission with the Commercial Lunar Payload Services (CLPS) vendors for a possible ride share to the moon? https://www.nasa.gov/content/commercial-lunar-payload-services Crazy Idea Two: Back in the Apollo program, NASA would have astronauts deploy the Apollo Lunar Surface Experiments Package (ALSEP). When NASA returns to the Moon (i.e., Artemis), what is the possibility of developing a Solar powered Ham Radio Package that would be deployed on the moon surface? Both crazy ideas would avoid the de-orbiting regulations. 73, Tom K0CFI -----Original Message-----From: Jean Marc Momple [email protected] Sent: Monday, August 15, 2022 11:05To: [email protected]: AMSAT-BB [email protected]Subject: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite or GOLF Hi Mark, Thanks for your input. Really appreciated. Hopefully they will announce same asap, but more important for me is that HAMs will be on board. Thanks to the OM'S/ YL in China making this possible for the HAM community worldwide. Bravo Ms X and Mr X in China (also to ARISS and all others doing so for years) for your efforts to make the HAM community an active part of the great space adventure. All the best, 73 Jean Marc (3B8DU) > On Aug 15, 2022, at 9:50 PM, Mark Johns, K0JM [email protected] wrote:> > The Chinese plans for amateur radio on their space station have been > widely reported. However, China has not indicated when that operation > will commence.> --> Mark D. Johns, KØJM> AMSAT Ambassador & News Service Editor> Brooklyn Park, MN USA EN35hd> -----------------------------------------------> "Heaven goes by favor; if it went by merit,> you would stay out and your dog would go in."> ---Mark Twain> > On Mon, Aug 15, 2022 at 12:45 PM Jean Marc Momple > [email protected] wrote:>> >> Hi Graham,>> >> Great news, thanks for sharing the info which I am copying to the BB so that all aware.>> >> I take this opportunity to thank you and the coordination team at IARU for the MIR-SAT 1 (MO-112) project, you guys have been instrumental with the success of the mission with advices and suggestions. Thanks to you, Hans and all others.>> >> 73>> >> >> Jean Marc (3B8DU)>> >> >> On Aug 15, 2022, at 9:35 PM, Graham Shirville [email protected] wrote:>> >> Hi Jean Marc,>> >> Just to give you this info about what the Chinese are up to!>> >> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.%3E%3E amsatuk.me.uk%2Fiaru%2Ffinished_detail.php%3Fserialnum%3D857&data>> =05%7C01%7C%7C28c9813cbbc1476816c308da7ee8bd63%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435>> aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637961835330090836%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJ>> WIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C300>> 0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=iCUK%2FPNS%2Bw7Effk3RPyYlqYaUCZpIMz8yYkO0jKmz6w%>> 3D&reserved=0>> >> best wishes>> >> Graham>> >> On 15/08/2022 16:55, Jean Marc Momple wrote:>> >> Jim,>> >> I am like you and don't like contest type of QSO but chatting with friends around the world and also technical experimentation.>> >> As regards the regulations, your are right that this is probably the biggest hurdle to put our own GEO up there. Just trying to simplify the issues in a nutshell for easy understanding of all: first we will have to find a slot to cover an hemisphere (not cheap), then build the bird and find a launcher (extremely) expensive. More maintain the bird position in space for its life time (say 15 years) and finally park it in the graveyard, this operational part is probably beyond our capabilities and also the risks are huge e.g. (worst case) that we damage a commercial bird up there and all the possible legal and compensation issue.>> >> Therefore, I reiterate that the QO-100 model is the best approach to have a global GEO network or at least one over Americas, AMSAT-DL & QSAR have done it and have the experience, they have the technical design of the transponders, know all possible issues and also now experienced of operating it. Thus we should use the knowledge acquired and copy with pride. Actually if it is Mitsubishi building a commercial GEO (as they build QO-100) for deployment over an interesting slot for us it would be even easier as they built the HAM transponders, contacting them can be an opportunity eventually as they can bridge the gap between us and their customers (just an idea), may be contacting all the GEO satellites manufacturers (not many anyway) is better as they may be able to put us in contact with their customers thus increasing chances of a ride.>> >> I also again appeal to all AMSAT leaders to join force and have a common strategy for HAM in space, whatever the outcome HEO, GEO or LEO it will focus our efforts in one direction and enable to reinforce/keep our presence in space.>> >> Another though, now that our Chinese friends have a space station it would be nice that they have some similar program such as ARISS for students and HAM radio on board, May be any B HAM leader could comment on same.>> >> 73>> >> >> Jean Marc (3B8DU)>> >> >> >> On Aug 15, 2022, at 5:37 AM, [email protected] wrote:>> >> I have realized the past few days that our AMSAT group has some really smart Hams! Thanks very much for the information. I have a few more questions. As I said before I would like to have more than a five minute QSO. I am not much of a contester, more a rag chewer. But I am afraid, if I understand most of you correctly, that is probably not going to happen in my life time? I reference K0JM's comments it's not so much the money but the regulatory environment that will stop this. I don't see this getting any easier in the next year, five years, or ten years. Does anybody else see anything different? And throwing in N8FGV's comments about the timing of the launch seems like a long shot as well. I spent a ton of money prior to AO-40 getting equipment ready to go in high hopes of having an AO-13 length run with so much more to do! I was terribly excited about this bird only to have it vanish before my eyes before I really got started. My last question is would a GOLF type satellite have the same obstacles as a Phase IV bird? If so I am probably going to have a-lot of satellite ham gear for sale real soon. Again thanks for your input.>> >> WA5QAP>> >> (licensed in 1966)>> >> >> >> >> ---------------------------- Original Message >> ---------------------------->> Subject: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite>> From: "Daniel Schultz" [email protected]>> Date: Fri, August 12, 2022 6:57 pm>> To: "AMSAT-BB" [email protected]>> --------------------------------------------------------------------->> ----->> >>> Hosting our payload on a commercial GEO satellite would likely cost >>> more than>>> $10 million if the commercial satellite owner is to be fully >>> compensated for the engineering modifications to their satellite and >>> potential loss of transponder revenue from diverting satellite >>> resources to a non-productive payload over a 15 year design >>> lifetime. Offering a tax break will probably not make up this >>> difference. You might have better luck seeking hosting on a >>> government owned satellite such as the Air Force mission that was >>> discussed by AMSAT a few years ago, but eventually fell through. >>> This is where carefully cultivated personal relationships can come >>> in, if you have any such friends in high places. OSCAR-1 got its >>> launch approved back in 1961 because of a few highly placed hams in the Pentagon, so keep up with your networking and maybe it can happen.>>> >>> Some orbits are inherently unstable, for example 63 degree Molniya >>> orbits will reliably decay in a few years. The Late, Great OSCAR-13 >>> provides a prime example of this. Their orbital lifetime is heavily >>> sensitive to the time of launch, if AO-13 was launched a few hours >>> earlier it would still be up there, a few hours later it would have >>> reentered a couple of years after launch. This is easy to model in GMAT.>>> >>> As a secondary payload, we don't get to choose the launch time, our >>> only hope would be to use thrusters to make slight post-launch >>> adjustments so the satellite reenters not too early (as AO-13 did) >>> and not too late. I have been trying to figure out how to do this >>> but have not had any results so far. If we have a dedicated launch >>> all to ourselves we can choose a launch time that meets our requirements.>>> >>> The NASA Cubesat that was recently grounded was aiming for a GTO >>> launch, which has been mentioned as a possible target for an AMSAT >>> mission because we could possibly get one cheap. Analysis of NORAD >>> tracking data shows a lot of spent rocket bodies that have been in >>> GTO for decades, so this might not be the best choice for a mission that needs a guaranteed reentry date.>>> >>> Another possibility would be to place the satellite directly into >>> the GEO graveyard orbit and let it slowly drift around the Earth. >>> There are plenty of other HEO or Cislunar orbits that are not >>> sensitive to orbital debris requirements and may not be commercially >>> attractive but would work OK for our needs.>>> >>> So yes, if we had $10 million in our bank account we could buy our >>> way out of a lot of problems that only affect poor people who are lacking options.>>> >>> 73, Dan N8FGV>>> >>> >>> ------ Original Message ------>>> Received: Fri, 12 Aug 2022 12:28:55 PM EDT>>> >> From: Paul Andrews [email protected]>>> Subject: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite>>> >>>> Yes! Find a commercial GEOsat with room to support an amateur payload.>>>> Leverage commercial economics for launch and platform reliability. >>>> The commercial operator can donate (tax break) the value of the ham >>>> (STEM) capability. Maybe ham bands at 10 GHz and above. Simple bent pipe.>>> >>> >>> ------ Original Message ------>>> Received: Fri, 12 Aug 2022 11:28:21 AM EDT>>> >> From: "Mark Johns, K0JM" [email protected]>>> Subject: Re: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite>>> >>>> The launch costs, while significant, are beside the point. The >>>> biggest issue with HEO satellites are the regulatory challenges. >>>> AMSAT and international partners could build and get ready for >>>> launch such a satellite within a few years, just as they did with >>>> AO-10, AO-13, and AO-40. But they would not get a license to put it >>>> into orbit in the current regulatory environment. The technical and >>>> financial challenges can be met, but the licensing requirements are killing us.>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ----------------------------------------------------------->>> >>> Sent via AMSAT-BB(a)amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum >>> available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring >>> membership. 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"commercial contractors are working with NASA on a $2.6 billion program to launch small science missions to the moon, with 46 payloads finalized so far"
https://www.space.com/moon-science-excitement-artemis-program
Just wondering if AMSAT has reached out to any of these "commercial contractors".......
Tom K0CFI
From: Matthias Bopp [email protected] Sent: Monday, August 15, 2022 15:19 To: David G0MRF [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected] Subject: AW: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite or GOLF
Hi David,
yes, we did submit such a proposal but unfortunately ESA did not move ahead with it.
Maybe the proposal can be reused. If anyone is interested please send an Email to me.
Kind regards
Matthias
Von: David G0MRF via AMSAT-BB <[email protected]mailto:[email protected]> Gesendet: Dienstag, 16. August 2022 00:15 An: [email protected]mailto:[email protected]; [email protected]mailto:[email protected] Betreff: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite or GOLF
Hi Tom.
I believe AMSAT-DL currently has a proposal at ESA for an amateur payload in Lunar orbit as a rideshare.
David G0MRF
-----Original Message----- From: Thomas Talley <[email protected]mailto:[email protected]> To: AMSAT-BB <[email protected]mailto:[email protected]> Sent: Mon, 15 Aug 2022 20:22 Subject: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite or GOLF Perhaps going off on a tangent.. However crazy idea(s)..
Crazy Idea One: Has there been any discission with the Commercial Lunar Payload Services (CLPS) vendors for a possible ride share to the moon? https://www.nasa.gov/content/commercial-lunar-payload-serviceshttps://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.nasa.gov%2Fcontent%2Fcommercial-lunar-payload-services&data=05%7C01%7C%7Ce8a86e86d9fb4f2e0e3f08da7f0c327b%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637961987650423661%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=x5lU16o1SmkqACqvjmZYJVOkKnGE%2FOlCM79DvQcB6b8%3D&reserved=0
Crazy Idea Two: Back in the Apollo program, NASA would have astronauts deploy the Apollo Lunar Surface Experiments Package (ALSEP). When NASA returns to the Moon (i.e., Artemis), what is the possibility of developing a Solar powered Ham Radio Package that would be deployed on the moon surface?
Both crazy ideas would avoid the de-orbiting regulations.
73, Tom K0CFI
-----Original Message----- From: Jean Marc Momple <[email protected]mailto:[email protected]> Sent: Monday, August 15, 2022 11:05 To: [email protected]mailto:[email protected] Cc: AMSAT-BB <[email protected]mailto:[email protected]> Subject: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite or GOLF
Hi Mark,
Thanks for your input. Really appreciated.
Hopefully they will announce same asap, but more important for me is that HAMs will be on board. Thanks to the OM'S/ YL in China making this possible for the HAM community worldwide. Bravo Ms X and Mr X in China (also to ARISS and all others doing so for years) for your efforts to make the HAM community an active part of the great space adventure.
All the best, 73
Jean Marc (3B8DU)
On Aug 15, 2022, at 9:50 PM, Mark Johns, K0JM <[email protected]mailto:[email protected]> wrote:
The Chinese plans for amateur radio on their space station have been widely reported. However, China has not indicated when that operation will commence. -- Mark D. Johns, KØJM AMSAT Ambassador & News Service Editor Brooklyn Park, MN USA EN35hd
"Heaven goes by favor; if it went by merit, you would stay out and your dog would go in." ---Mark Twain
On Mon, Aug 15, 2022 at 12:45 PM Jean Marc Momple <[email protected]mailto:[email protected]> wrote:
Hi Graham,
Great news, thanks for sharing the info which I am copying to the BB so that all aware.
I take this opportunity to thank you and the coordination team at IARU for the MIR-SAT 1 (MO-112) project, you guys have been instrumental with the success of the mission with advices and suggestions. Thanks to you, Hans and all others.
73
Jean Marc (3B8DU)
On Aug 15, 2022, at 9:35 PM, Graham Shirville <[email protected]mailto:[email protected]> wrote:
Hi Jean Marc,
Just to give you this info about what the Chinese are up to!
https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww. amsatuk.me.uk%2Fiaru%2Ffinished_detail.php%3Fserialnum%3D857&data =05%7C01%7C%7C28c9813cbbc1476816c308da7ee8bd63%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435 aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637961835330090836%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJ WIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C300 0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=iCUK%2FPNS%2Bw7Effk3RPyYlqYaUCZpIMz8yYkO0jKmz6w% 3D&reserved=0
best wishes
Graham
On 15/08/2022 16:55, Jean Marc Momple wrote:
Jim,
I am like you and don't like contest type of QSO but chatting with friends around the world and also technical experimentation.
As regards the regulations, your are right that this is probably the biggest hurdle to put our own GEO up there. Just trying to simplify the issues in a nutshell for easy understanding of all: first we will have to find a slot to cover an hemisphere (not cheap), then build the bird and find a launcher (extremely) expensive. More maintain the bird position in space for its life time (say 15 years) and finally park it in the graveyard, this operational part is probably beyond our capabilities and also the risks are huge e.g. (worst case) that we damage a commercial bird up there and all the possible legal and compensation issue.
Therefore, I reiterate that the QO-100 model is the best approach to have a global GEO network or at least one over Americas, AMSAT-DL & QSAR have done it and have the experience, they have the technical design of the transponders, know all possible issues and also now experienced of operating it. Thus we should use the knowledge acquired and copy with pride. Actually if it is Mitsubishi building a commercial GEO (as they build QO-100) for deployment over an interesting slot for us it would be even easier as they built the HAM transponders, contacting them can be an opportunity eventually as they can bridge the gap between us and their customers (just an idea), may be contacting all the GEO satellites manufacturers (not many anyway) is better as they may be able to put us in contact with their customers thus increasing chances of a ride.
I also again appeal to all AMSAT leaders to join force and have a common strategy for HAM in space, whatever the outcome HEO, GEO or LEO it will focus our efforts in one direction and enable to reinforce/keep our presence in space.
Another though, now that our Chinese friends have a space station it would be nice that they have some similar program such as ARISS for students and HAM radio on board, May be any B HAM leader could comment on same.
73
Jean Marc (3B8DU)
On Aug 15, 2022, at 5:37 AM, [email protected]mailto:[email protected] wrote:
I have realized the past few days that our AMSAT group has some really smart Hams! Thanks very much for the information. I have a few more questions. As I said before I would like to have more than a five minute QSO. I am not much of a contester, more a rag chewer. But I am afraid, if I understand most of you correctly, that is probably not going to happen in my life time? I reference K0JM's comments it's not so much the money but the regulatory environment that will stop this. I don't see this getting any easier in the next year, five years, or ten years. Does anybody else see anything different? And throwing in N8FGV's comments about the timing of the launch seems like a long shot as well. I spent a ton of money prior to AO-40 getting equipment ready to go in high hopes of having an AO-13 length run with so much more to do! I was terribly excited about this bird only to have it vanish before my eyes before I really got started. My last question is would a GOLF type satellite have the same obstacles as a Phase IV bird? If so I am probably going to have a-lot of satellite ham gear for sale real soon. Again thanks for your input.
WA5QAP
(licensed in 1966)
---------------------------- Original Message
Subject: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite From: "Daniel Schultz" <[email protected]mailto:[email protected]> Date: Fri, August 12, 2022 6:57 pm To: "AMSAT-BB" <[email protected]mailto:[email protected]>
Hosting our payload on a commercial GEO satellite would likely cost more than $10 million if the commercial satellite owner is to be fully compensated for the engineering modifications to their satellite and potential loss of transponder revenue from diverting satellite resources to a non-productive payload over a 15 year design lifetime. Offering a tax break will probably not make up this difference. You might have better luck seeking hosting on a government owned satellite such as the Air Force mission that was discussed by AMSAT a few years ago, but eventually fell through. This is where carefully cultivated personal relationships can come in, if you have any such friends in high places. OSCAR-1 got its launch approved back in 1961 because of a few highly placed hams in the Pentagon, so keep up with your networking and maybe it can happen.
Some orbits are inherently unstable, for example 63 degree Molniya orbits will reliably decay in a few years. The Late, Great OSCAR-13 provides a prime example of this. Their orbital lifetime is heavily sensitive to the time of launch, if AO-13 was launched a few hours earlier it would still be up there, a few hours later it would have reentered a couple of years after launch. This is easy to model in GMAT.
As a secondary payload, we don't get to choose the launch time, our only hope would be to use thrusters to make slight post-launch adjustments so the satellite reenters not too early (as AO-13 did) and not too late. I have been trying to figure out how to do this but have not had any results so far. If we have a dedicated launch all to ourselves we can choose a launch time that meets our requirements.
The NASA Cubesat that was recently grounded was aiming for a GTO launch, which has been mentioned as a possible target for an AMSAT mission because we could possibly get one cheap. Analysis of NORAD tracking data shows a lot of spent rocket bodies that have been in GTO for decades, so this might not be the best choice for a mission that needs a guaranteed reentry date.
Another possibility would be to place the satellite directly into the GEO graveyard orbit and let it slowly drift around the Earth. There are plenty of other HEO or Cislunar orbits that are not sensitive to orbital debris requirements and may not be commercially attractive but would work OK for our needs.
So yes, if we had $10 million in our bank account we could buy our way out of a lot of problems that only affect poor people who are lacking options.
73, Dan N8FGV
------ Original Message ------ Received: Fri, 12 Aug 2022 12:28:55 PM EDT
From: Paul Andrews <[email protected]mailto:[email protected]>
Subject: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite
Yes! Find a commercial GEOsat with room to support an amateur payload. Leverage commercial economics for launch and platform reliability. The commercial operator can donate (tax break) the value of the ham (STEM) capability. Maybe ham bands at 10 GHz and above. Simple bent pipe.
------ Original Message ------ Received: Fri, 12 Aug 2022 11:28:21 AM EDT
From: "Mark Johns, K0JM" <[email protected]mailto:[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite
The launch costs, while significant, are beside the point. The biggest issue with HEO satellites are the regulatory challenges. AMSAT and international partners could build and get ready for launch such a satellite within a few years, just as they did with AO-10, AO-13, and AO-40. But they would not get a license to put it into orbit in the current regulatory environment. The technical and financial challenges can be met, but the licensing requirements are killing us.
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participants (14)
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Tom