Say it isn't so.
Say it's just a dream....
Just this past weekend, I was reading an OLD QST from 1974 that had mentioned the notion that AMSAT wanted a geo-synch satellite by 1975. How amazing. The thought was kicked around on a local AMSAT 2-meter net in the early 1990 (back during the Mode K days of yore).
Imagine...ULTRA RELIABLE DX...24 hours per day. Those with antenna restrictions or home-owner's covenants could be QRV. And if the up/down links were UHF and above, a pair of helices could be used INSIDE, pointing through a window....
Just a thought, though. What about our European and Asian friends? Could facilities be included so that geo-synchs over their respective footprints could be linked? Or possibly the satellite being "parked" over an area that could include the US and Europe? I realize that it is all dependent on the space that the host bird has.
This is truly exciting!
John KB2HSH
On Oct 30, 2007, at 2:58 PM, John Marranca, Jr wrote:
Imagine...ULTRA RELIABLE DX...24 hours per day. Those with antenna restrictions or home-owner's covenants could be QRV. And if the up/ down links were UHF and above, a pair of helices could be used INSIDE, pointing through a window....
Imagine the hundreds of people QRM'ing each other. :-)
Just a thought, though. What about our European and Asian friends? Could facilities be included so that geo-synchs over their respective footprints could be linked? Or possibly the satellite being "parked" over an area that could include the US and Europe? I realize that it is all dependent on the space that the host bird has.
Actually it all depends on what the host bird is trying to cover in its footprint. We're just along for the ride, as far as orbital position goes... right?
-- Nate Duehr, WY0X [email protected]
Yes,
It is a great project and deserves our full support!
Having said that we also need to realize, that depending on the location of the satellite above the equator we might only have the Americas in the foot print. No Europe or Africa and no Asia. Since the first geostationary satellite with amateur radio has to provide tangible support for government agencies (funding source) it will certainly be primarily centered around a North American footprint. That's why we need to keep Eagle alive and support Phase 3E.
All together they will give us the full package of worldwide DX via satellite and reliable high power communication in the Americas.
73. Stefan VE4NSA
-----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of John Marranca, Jr Sent: October-30-07 3:59 PM To: [email protected] Subject: [amsat-bb] Phase 4
Say it isn't so.
Say it's just a dream....
Just this past weekend, I was reading an OLD QST from 1974 that had mentioned the notion that AMSAT wanted a geo-synch satellite by 1975. How amazing. The thought was kicked around on a local AMSAT 2-meter net in the early 1990 (back during the Mode K days of yore).
Imagine...ULTRA RELIABLE DX...24 hours per day. Those with antenna restrictions or home-owner's covenants could be QRV. And if the up/down links were UHF and above, a pair of helices could be used INSIDE, pointing through a window....
Just a thought, though. What about our European and Asian friends? Could facilities be included so that geo-synchs over their respective footprints could be linked? Or possibly the satellite being "parked" over an area that could include the US and Europe? I realize that it is all dependent on the space that the host bird has.
This is truly exciting!
John KB2HSH
-- _______________________________
John Marranca, Jr PBX Technician/Shop Steward CWA Local 1122 BN Systems, Inc Orchard Park, NY (716)972-2006 _______________________________________________ Sent via [email protected]. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
On Oct 30, 2007, at 2:58 PM, John Marranca, Jr wrote:
Imagine...ULTRA RELIABLE DX...24 hours per day. Those with antenna restrictions or home-owner's covenants could be QRV. And if the up/ down links were UHF and above, a pair of helices could be used INSIDE, pointing through a window....
Imagine the hundreds of people QRM'ing each other. :-)
Nate, you are kidding, of course! With AO40, apogee ~35M, as I remember, at apogee we could talk to about 90% of ones hemisphere...From San Diego I worked Durban, South Africa, not too far from Madagascar, my antipode.
I think three would be needed to cover the world, but with "both" hemispheres I can't imagine there would ever be a problem...
There were times when a portion of the band would sound like 20 meters during a sunspot high, but in my experience I never failed to find a "hole"...
How about other AO40 users?? Any problems having a QSO because of band congestion??
About the poorest ham radio experience I've had in 52 years was with the low orbit 2 user FM birds!!!
73, Dave [email protected] Disagree: I learn....
Pulling for P3E...
We have kept Eagle satellite alive. The lab at U. Md. ES is being built out and we are going ahead with the structure. We helped fund the completion of P3E with our international partners and stepped up our efforts to finish the IHU-3 for them (and us.
The Eagle satellite structure build out is funded and slated for completion in 2008.
We are really going to try to get P3E a ride on Intelsat to balance against the other offers to see what is best for AMSAT-DL and us.
Stefan's analysis is correct. Any one geostationary bird can cover roughly a third of the earth.
Bob
Stefan Wagener wrote:
Yes,
It is a great project and deserves our full support!
Having said that we also need to realize, that depending on the location of the satellite above the equator we might only have the Americas in the foot print. No Europe or Africa and no Asia. Since the first geostationary satellite with amateur radio has to provide tangible support for government agencies (funding source) it will certainly be primarily centered around a North American footprint. That's why we need to keep Eagle alive and support Phase 3E.
All together they will give us the full package of worldwide DX via satellite and reliable high power communication in the Americas.
- Stefan VE4NSA
On Oct 30, 2007, at 6:18 PM, Dave Guimont wrote:
On Oct 30, 2007, at 2:58 PM, John Marranca, Jr wrote:
Imagine...ULTRA RELIABLE DX...24 hours per day. Those with antenna restrictions or home-owner's covenants could be QRV. And if the
up/
down links were UHF and above, a pair of helices could be used INSIDE, pointing through a window....
Imagine the hundreds of people QRM'ing each other. :-)
Nate, you are kidding, of course!
Yes, thus the " :-) ". Definitely meant as a joke.
Just poking a little fun at this -- a fixed bird is going to be very popular. Maybe sometimes "too" popular.
It was meant to come out with a tone something like the phrase: "Visualize Whirled Peas!".
Kinda like a new restaurant opening in your neighborhood, you probably don't want to be there on "opening night" if you're the type that likes to avoid crowds. (GRIN)
-- Nate Duehr, WY0X [email protected]
Thanks Bob.
It was great meeeting you in Pittsburgh and you have my full support for your ideas and initatives. Folks like you keep things moving.
73, Stefan VE4NSA
-----Original Message----- From: Robert McGwier [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: October-30-07 7:23 PM To: Stefan Wagener Cc: 'John Marranca, Jr'; [email protected] Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Re: Phase 4
We have kept Eagle satellite alive. The lab at U. Md. ES is being built out and we are going ahead with the structure. We helped fund the completion of P3E with our international partners and stepped up our efforts to finish the IHU-3 for them (and us.
The Eagle satellite structure build out is funded and slated for completion in 2008.
We are really going to try to get P3E a ride on Intelsat to balance against the other offers to see what is best for AMSAT-DL and us.
Stefan's analysis is correct. Any one geostationary bird can cover roughly a third of the earth.
Bob
Stefan Wagener wrote:
Yes,
It is a great project and deserves our full support!
Having said that we also need to realize, that depending on the location of the satellite above the equator we might only have the Americas in the foot print. No Europe or Africa and no Asia. Since the first geostationary satellite with amateur radio has to provide tangible support for government agencies (funding source) it will certainly be primarily centered around a North American footprint. That's why we need to keep Eagle alive and support Phase 3E.
All together they will give us the full package of worldwide DX via satellite and reliable high power communication in the Americas.
- Stefan VE4NSA
-- AMSAT Director and VP Engineering. Member: ARRL, AMSAT-DL, TAPR, Packrats, NJQRP, QRP ARCI, QCWA, FRC. ARRL SDR WG Chair "An optimist may see a light where there is none, but why must the pessimist always run to blow it out?" Descartes
At 07:37 PM 10/30/2007, you wrote:
Yes,
It is a great project and deserves our full support!
Having said that we also need to realize, that depending on the location of the satellite above the equator we might only have the Americas in the foot print. No Europe or Africa and no Asia. Since the first geostationary satellite with amateur radio has to provide tangible support for government agencies (funding source) it will certainly be primarily centered around a North American footprint. That's why we need to keep Eagle alive and support Phase 3E.
All together they will give us the full package of worldwide DX via satellite and reliable high power communication in the Americas.
- Stefan VE4NSA
if its an AMSAT-NA project and money then I hope it is over the Americas!!! Think of the possibilities ... WAS, worked all US Counties (by Sat), worked all grids, worked all Canadian provinces, etc. Probably could even do it all MOBILE too, if one wanted to.
Les W4SCO www.scoincsoftware.com
Yes, thus the " :-) ". Definitely meant as a joke. Just poking a little fun at this -- a fixed bird is going to be very popular. Maybe sometimes "too" popular.
It was meant to come out with a tone something like the phrase: "Visualize Whirled Peas!".
Kinda like a new restaurant opening in your neighborhood, you probably don't want to be there on "opening night" if you're the type that likes to avoid crowds. (GRIN)
Wonderful Nate! But one has to be careful with "today's crowd"! We wasted money on the last "2 user" FM only, one we launched, and I don't want to see that happen again... Some of us screamed like wounded eagles while it was happening, and I was told at more than one convention to mind my own business, just as tho the teller had more votes than I did.
Well apparently he did 'cause the FM one was lauched, ............probably cost us hundreds of thousands, I'm guessing, that could be applied now to our next venture....It was pumped up with a big thermometer, and have seen no major effort to collect among the users of the FM only bird. Looks like we got more users, but no contributors...but again, conjecture...
I think ESA and Germany is our savior in amateur satellites, with P3D.
I HOPE that AMSAT-NA will hold together long enough, and create the funding required for their now excellent goals. Bob McGwier, our true genius is back, and if there is any possibility of enabling, he'll do it....I see a lot of mouth from some others..
Nate, Bob, keep ur stuff coming!!
73, Dave [email protected] Disagree: I learn....
Pulling for P3E...
Since most of the ham population is at mid-latitudes in the Northern Hemisphere, coverage will not be an issue. Those of us at high northern latitudes will find that a Geostationary satellite is low on the horizon. Assuming the Intelsat will chose a mid-continental sub-satellite longitude (90-100W Long), my elevation may only be 5-7 degrees to the Phase-IV. My latitude is 60.67N and Longitude is 151.3W. For stations even farther north there may not be line of sight path. Barrow, AK 70N latitude see the Clark Belt at only 7 degrees above the horizon due south.
However if an Asian Geostationary sat is not more than about 50-deg West of me I may have access to it, as well. Southcentral Alaska is almost exactly north of Hawaii and thus sits at mid-Pacific Longitude.
Earth station antennas will have to consider locations that provide a low horizon in this case. The HEO's like the Phase-3 sats were all inclined to the equator about 60-degrees so that apogee provided high look angles for very extended time periods.
I know about this from operating a TV-Satellite dealership in the mid-1980's installing C-Band TVRO equipment.
73, Ed - KL7UW
At 04:22 PM 10/30/2007, Robert McGwier wrote:
We have kept Eagle satellite alive. The lab at U. Md. ES is being built out and we are going ahead with the structure. We helped fund the completion of P3E with our international partners and stepped up our efforts to finish the IHU-3 for them (and us.
The Eagle satellite structure build out is funded and slated for completion in 2008.
We are really going to try to get P3E a ride on Intelsat to balance against the other offers to see what is best for AMSAT-DL and us.
Stefan's analysis is correct. Any one geostationary bird can cover roughly a third of the earth.
Bob
Stefan Wagener wrote:
Yes,
It is a great project and deserves our full support!
Having said that we also need to realize, that depending on the location of the satellite above the equator we might only have the Americas in the foot print. No Europe or Africa and no Asia. Since the first geostationary satellite with amateur radio has to provide tangible support for government agencies (funding source) it will certainly be primarily centered around a North American footprint. That's why we need to keep Eagle alive
and support
Phase 3E.
All together they will give us the full package of worldwide DX via satellite and reliable high power communication in the Americas.
- Stefan VE4NSA
-- AMSAT Director and VP Engineering. Member: ARRL, AMSAT-DL, TAPR, Packrats, NJQRP, QRP ARCI, QCWA, FRC. ARRL SDR WG Chair "An optimist may see a light where there is none, but why must the pessimist always run to blow it out?" Descartes _______________________________________________ Sent via [email protected]. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
73, Ed - KL7UW ====================================== BP40IQ 50-MHz - 10-GHz www.kl7uw.com 144-EME: FT-847, mgf-1801, 4x-xpol-20, 185w DUBUS Magazine USA Rep [email protected] ======================================
Dave, Nate was probably more correct than any of us realize at this point in time, and so were you.
This bird will be extremely poular among "today's crowd", and will probably bring out an entirely new crop of amateurs who will enjoy playing, but will avoid helping to pay the costs involved. I think we should either be prepared to endure this without complaint, or have a plan to deal with this opportunity to gain new paying members of AMSAT.
I think that this sat will be workable using cross-band Split, and not require duplex, doppler compensation, etc.
This may serve to assuage the feelings of disappointment of those who find that they can't work it with their H-Ts.
I think we can expect complaints about those "high dollar" 2M and 440 yagis, though.
I just remembered that old song that went " there must be fifty ways to leave your lover". Maybe there are at least 3 ways to bring these new users completely on board. (Get a new plan, Sam)
I am thinking about the example of registration of software in order to use all of its features as a possible approach.
It has not escaped me that there will be considerable commonality of hardware between Eagle and Phase 4, so that any effort will benefit both projects, and that is good.
Mike Honer W1BFN LM 2252
Sent via [email protected]. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
This bird will be extremely poular among "today's crowd", and will probably bring out an entirely new crop of amateurs who will enjoy playing, but will avoid helping to pay the costs involved. I think we should either be prepared to endure this without complaint, or have a plan to deal with this opportunity to gain new paying members of AMSAT.
Enjoyed your comments, Mike....What we need of course, are "paying members", and their membership dues probably helps with only a part of the expenses involved... What we really need are "donating members", and to get them we need something a little more attractive than a satellite that only requires them to go out an buy an HT, and push the mike button!!
I've been a club member in San Diego, North Shores ARC, and have given briefings to all of the other 18 clubs in San Diego at one time or another...When we had HEOS the effort created some new members, some club donations, NSARC was one of the contributors, and general interest among quite a few operators.
The "two meter mentality" affecienados (sp?), resulted in zilch, as far as I know..
I think we can expect complaints about those "high dollar" 2M and 440 yagis, though.
They both can be homebrewed by anyone who can use a hacksaw and tape measure....buy everything new, and the N connectors and the coax cost more than the antenna materials!
Instructions for both, with options can be found at:
http://home.san.rr.com/doguimont/uploads/
HEOS of course require pointing, but near apogee that can be done "armstrong" very easily,
There are plenty of used rotors around, that are relatively inexpensive in comparison to the price of radios required....
It has not escaped me that there will be considerable commonality of hardware between Eagle and Phase 4, so that any effort will benefit both projects, and that is good.
I am sure you are right on target there, Mike, and can hardly wait for both to happen!!
73, Dave [email protected] Disagree: I learn....
Pulling for P3E...
Edward Cole wrote:
Since most of the ham population is at mid-latitudes in the Northern Hemisphere, coverage will not be an issue. Those of us at high northern latitudes will find that a Geostationary satellite is low on the horizon.
That reminds me of talking with someone, and then seeing still-shots of the satellite dishes deployed in Antarctica at McMurdo Station...
Very big high-gain antennas, pointed almost at the horizon.
Nate
I see there being quite a few financial avenues that AMSAT can go with that could fund the next few missions in itself. Since AMSAT-NA is a 501(c)3 non-profit, it's able to take in money and give back whatever the donor wants (tax writeoff's, good PR, etc..). For instance:
* Obviously commercial enterprise might want to contribute if it works out for them that they can make products that amateurs would want to buy (ie: ICOM/Kenwood/Yaesu not to mention companies like Winegard (makers of portable geosync satellite antennas like the ones you see on RV's), microchip makers (just to promote their product is being used since we're not bound by NDA to non-disclose the build out of phase4lite)).
* Clubs would donate just like they do now if it means for them an easier way for getting their membership numbers up.
* And since it's going to be very prime for emergency response, local and state governments would probably chip in since usually they purchase ham gear anyways for their own emergency communications. Being able to use a geosync satellite means less cost for them to relay health/safety/logistic information into areas affected. To them, it's an insurance policy even if they never use it and alot less costs than a commercial link that involves contracts and recurring costs. And other than the occasional test, they probably wouldn't use it thus leaving the bird free, open and *paid* for.
Ultimately, I don't think you'll ever see individual contributor donations like the past. Many that i've talked to kinda felt burnt after the launch failure of p3d. And the time it took for it to launch was way too long for most people to digest. I've had my ticket for 15+ years now and I remember reading about p3d *before* that by quite a few years. Since pico/microsats are cheaper and usually are launched by schools/organizations for education purposes separate of providing service to the ham community, I don't think people will feel a great urgency to even spend their money donating to these groups.
- Don (KL7EET)
Dave Guimont wrote:
This bird will be extremely poular among "today's crowd", and will probably bring out an entirely new crop of amateurs who will enjoy playing, but will avoid helping to pay the costs involved. I think we should either be prepared to endure this without complaint, or have a plan to deal with this opportunity to gain new paying members of AMSAT.
Enjoyed your comments, Mike....What we need of course, are "paying members", and their membership dues probably helps with only a part of the expenses involved... What we really need are "donating members", and to get them we need something a little more attractive than a satellite that only requires them to go out an buy an HT, and push the mike button!!
I've been a club member in San Diego, North Shores ARC, and have given briefings to all of the other 18 clubs in San Diego at one time or another...When we had HEOS the effort created some new members, some club donations, NSARC was one of the contributors, and general interest among quite a few operators.
The "two meter mentality" affecienados (sp?), resulted in zilch, as far as I know..
I think we can expect complaints about those "high dollar" 2M and 440 yagis, though.
They both can be homebrewed by anyone who can use a hacksaw and tape measure....buy everything new, and the N connectors and the coax cost more than the antenna materials!
Instructions for both, with options can be found at:
http://home.san.rr.com/doguimont/uploads/
HEOS of course require pointing, but near apogee that can be done "armstrong" very easily,
There are plenty of used rotors around, that are relatively inexpensive in comparison to the price of radios required....
It has not escaped me that there will be considerable commonality of hardware between Eagle and Phase 4, so that any effort will benefit both projects, and that is good.
I am sure you are right on target there, Mike, and can hardly wait for both to happen!!
73, Dave [email protected] Disagree: I learn.... Pulling for P3E...
Sent via [email protected]. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
This sat should make us (hams) the number one emergency communications provider in the whole country, in case of attack or natural disaster. We will be the "Go To Guys" when normal commo fails. Because we will have a bird in the sky that is always there on call 24-7.
Les W4SCO www.scoincsoftware.com
At 08:40 PM 10/31/2007, you wrote:
I see there being quite a few financial avenues that AMSAT can go with that could fund the next few missions in itself. Since AMSAT-NA is a 501(c)3 non-profit, it's able to take in money and give back whatever the donor wants (tax writeoff's, good PR, etc..). For instance:
- Obviously commercial enterprise might want to contribute if it works
out for them that they can make products that amateurs would want to buy (ie: ICOM/Kenwood/Yaesu not to mention companies like Winegard (makers of portable geosync satellite antennas like the ones you see on RV's), microchip makers (just to promote their product is being used since we're not bound by NDA to non-disclose the build out of phase4lite)).
- Clubs would donate just like they do now if it means for them an
easier way for getting their membership numbers up.
- And since it's going to be very prime for emergency response, local
and state governments would probably chip in since usually they purchase ham gear anyways for their own emergency communications. Being able to use a geosync satellite means less cost for them to relay health/safety/logistic information into areas affected. To them, it's an insurance policy even if they never use it and alot less costs than a commercial link that involves contracts and recurring costs. And other than the occasional test, they probably wouldn't use it thus leaving the bird free, open and *paid* for.
Ultimately, I don't think you'll ever see individual contributor donations like the past. Many that i've talked to kinda felt burnt after the launch failure of p3d. And the time it took for it to launch was way too long for most people to digest. I've had my ticket for 15+ years now and I remember reading about p3d *before* that by quite a few years. Since pico/microsats are cheaper and usually are launched by schools/organizations for education purposes separate of providing service to the ham community, I don't think people will feel a great urgency to even spend their money donating to these groups.
- Don (KL7EET)
Dave Guimont wrote:
This bird will be extremely poular among "today's crowd", and will probably bring out an entirely new crop of amateurs who will enjoy playing, but will avoid helping to pay the costs involved. I think we should either be prepared to endure this without complaint, or have a plan to deal with this opportunity to gain new paying
members of AMSAT.
Enjoyed your comments, Mike....What we need of course, are "paying members", and their membership dues probably helps with only a part of the expenses involved... What we really need are "donating members", and to get them we need something a little more attractive than a satellite that only requires them to go out an buy an HT, and push the mike button!!
I've been a club member in San Diego, North Shores ARC, and have given briefings to all of the other 18 clubs in San Diego at one time or another...When we had HEOS the effort created some new members, some club donations, NSARC was one of the contributors, and general interest among quite a few operators.
The "two meter mentality" affecienados (sp?), resulted in zilch, as far as I know..
I think we can expect complaints about those "high dollar" 2M and 440 yagis, though.
They both can be homebrewed by anyone who can use a hacksaw and tape measure....buy everything new, and the N connectors and the coax cost more than the antenna materials!
Instructions for both, with options can be found at:
http://home.san.rr.com/doguimont/uploads/
HEOS of course require pointing, but near apogee that can be done "armstrong" very easily,
There are plenty of used rotors around, that are relatively inexpensive in comparison to the price of radios required....
It has not escaped me that there will be considerable commonality of hardware between Eagle and Phase 4, so that any effort will benefit both projects, and that is good.
I am sure you are right on target there, Mike, and can hardly wait for both to happen!!
73, Dave [email protected] Disagree: I learn.... Pulling for P3E...
Sent via [email protected]. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via [email protected]. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
participants (9)
-
Dave Guimont -
Don Fanning -
Edward Cole -
John Marranca, Jr -
Mike Honer -
Nate Duehr -
Robert McGwier -
sco＠sco-inc.com -
Stefan Wagener