Re: [amsat-bb] Update: Rent GEO bandwidth for US
Grrrr.. Replies to the list via email with pictures attached get wiped ! We need a modern BB or forum like AMSAT-DL....
Here goes to the BB list again without pictures:
We could go RF HF or VHF into the aggregator like we do into Echolink nodes. The aggregator then send the signal via commercial RF into the satellite. Of course, this signal will be degraded by HF multi path and VHF distance constraints. Still an Emcomm use here.
Or, we could forego the Emcomm utility, use the Internet, and go into the aggregator via Echolink audio (computer to computer) or even use Skype, like in the early days of remote HF station use. Of course we could also use the gold standard audio of the free RCForb remote HF station software as found on www.remotehams.com A R&D use here.
KC9SGV Sent from my iPad
On Aug 22, 2019, at 7:01 AM, KC9SGV kc9sgv@gmail.com wrote:
We could go RF HF or VHF into the aggregator like we do into Echolink nodes. The aggregator then send the signal via commercial RF into the satellite. Of course, this signal will be degraded by HF multi path and VHF distance constraints. Still an Emcomm use here.
Or, we could forego the Emcomm utility, use the Internet, and go into the aggregator via Echolink audio (computer to computer) or even use Skype, like in the early days of remote HF station use. Of course we could also use the gold standard audio of the free RCForb remote HF station software as found on www.remotehams.com A R&D use here. Like this : <image1.PNG>
Bernard, KC9SGV
Sent from my iPad
On Aug 22, 2019, at 6:25 AM, John Kludt via AMSAT-BB amsat-bb@amsat.org wrote:
Ev,
But the aggregator can't uplink directly to the satellite as the uplink is outside of the amateur bands. So the aggregator must send everything to an earth station with a commercial license, correct?
Would the aggregator be single channel or work more like a linear transponder sending along multiple signals in mixed modes at once?
Unless I am wrong, the aggregator must be colocated with the commercial earth station or we are back into Internet required land thereby decreasing the encomm utility of this effort.
Sancho
Sent from my Verizon Motorola Smartphone
On Aug 21, 2019 22:34, Ev Tupis via AMSAT-BB amsat-bb@amsat.org wrote:
Hi Michelle, What a fascinating opportunity. I'd like to try to describe this using different words to see if I get it. Echostar 9 is a geosynchronous satellite with 1 MHz of spectrum to sell. Both the up and down frequencies are outside of the amateur bands. To use it, an aggregator is needed. An aggregator is a "bridge" device that converts amateur-band RF to satellite uplink RF and setellite downlink RF to amateur-band RF. Amateurs simply need to be in range of an aggregator. It is the aggregators responsibility to remain aimed at the satellite.
The aggregator determines if it will bridge FM or Linear (SSB, CW, PSK31, etc.) modes. Is this right? Regards,Ev, W2EV
On Wednesday, August 21, 2019, 9:38:12 PM EDT, Michelle Thompson via AMSAT-BB amsat-bb@amsat.org wrote:
An arrangement on Echostar9 for 1MHz of bandwidth for up to 4 years of USA+Mexico+Canada coverage is on offer for $2000 a month.
I'm putting together a grant proposal for ARRL, FEMA, and others to pay for at least year of access. I've gotten some positive feedback already. I think we can make this happen with some fundraising effort. I'm willing to provide the human resources and whatever incidental financing needs to happen to secure a grant for rental.
The main purpose of this type of system would be to enable field deployment of "legacy mode" aggregators, like the Phase 4 Ground ARAP (Amateur Radio Access Point). This is where traffic on any ham band, using FM or analog gear, is digitized by a local "collecting" repeater, and is then sent to a satellite from that repeater. FEMA and ARRL have expressed a lot of interest and support for this in the past. Phase 4 Ground needs an ARAP in order to support legacy radios.
You don't have to personally have a microwave digital uplink. The aggregator equipment does that part for you.
This is most useful for public service and emergency communications. A communications emergency is declared, someone (FEMA, Red Cross, motivated ham volunteer) drops in the aggregator, and all ham traffic it hears is sent to the satellite and then transmitted to the entire footprint.
The downlink is 12-14GHz. This is not 10GHz, but is receivable by individuals using very inexpensive gear. Traffic can be repeated over the internet.
What does this get us?
An opportunity to do all the R&D for the aggregator and get some experience with uplinks.
What do we not have?
A true ham band downlink. You can still receive the downlink yourself, or you can get it over the internet from an earth station distributor.
That's where we're at with *this* proposal.
I think it's worth it to provide a US-based way to design, deploy, test, and use real world aggregator equipment. We learn a lot about GEO comms and figure out a lot of the ins and outs.
Comment and critique welcome and encouraged.
More soon! -Michelle W5NYV _______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
The 'last mile' segment in this proposal is amateur spectrum yes, but that segment could also very easily be commercial or public safety spectrum as well. Heck, with a meg of bandwidth at 10g+ on your 'backbone' you could very easily establish a somewhat respectable packet link and then just have your "Aggregator" be nothing more than a wifi hotspot, which opens up all sorts of communication applications beyond simple push button HTs. If you're truly looking at this from an EMCOMM perspective, then the primary goal of the ESF-2 annex is 'communications infrastructure restoration' - which is ranked higher than 'tactical communications' anyway. Why screw with sending people with their HT's out to act as relays, when a pelican case with a dish and a Linksys can get everyone back on the net in 5 minutes?
Therefore, I'm confused on why this is being brought up here other than solicitation by folks who wear multiple hats. There is precisely zero benefit to AMSAT or ARRL getting involved, and committing their scarce resources to a project that won't benefit amateurs. No contact made thru this proposed method will be a valid 'qso' for folks interested in that sort of thing. No expertise or engineering will be required of the 'users' of the system, other than to tune their device to whatever frequency the Aggregator builders require of them. The only folks that would benefit from such a proposal are the aggregator builders themselves, and possibly the public - and I say possibly because commercial systems like your proposal already exist and are in common use by organizations that respond to disasters. For 60 bucks a week I can rent a basic Inmarsat turn key solution, take it anywhere on the planet, and let any of the workers I'm supporting send and receive emails while I do something productive towards saving lives instead of mashing my PTT button 23 hours a day.
The idea is cool, but only from the perspective of the people getting to build it. For those us who've actually been in the shit trying to help re-establish comms after a real disaster, we've all learned once the cell phones and internet comes back online, no one gives a crap about our radios. The moment the Verizon truck rolls up with the 3m dish and portable tower trailer, our work is done. The *real* use for Ham in disasters these days is the basic idea that our gear can establish communications without some sort of proprietary middle-hardware needed. Don't believe me? I'd be happy to send you my graduate research paper on DPEM Applications of Geo-Synchronous Satellites I did a few years back. There are applications for our hobby in disasters, find some spectrum to rent on a Geo-bird that I (or some ham in the mountains of western Puerto Rico) can use directly and I'll be the first one to donate. Until then, for 24k a year AMSAT could probably launch another pair of Fox's that would be *actual* amateur satellites.
-Dave, KG5CCI
On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 8:13 AM KC9SGV via AMSAT-BB amsat-bb@amsat.org wrote:
Grrrr.. Replies to the list via email with pictures attached get wiped ! We need a modern BB or forum like AMSAT-DL....
Here goes to the BB list again without pictures:
We could go RF HF or VHF into the aggregator like we do into Echolink nodes. The aggregator then send the signal via commercial RF into the satellite. Of course, this signal will be degraded by HF multi path and VHF distance constraints. Still an Emcomm use here.
Or, we could forego the Emcomm utility, use the Internet, and go into the aggregator via Echolink audio (computer to computer) or even use Skype, like in the early days of remote HF station use. Of course we could also use the gold standard audio of the free RCForb remote HF station software as found on www.remotehams.com A R&D use here.
KC9SGV Sent from my iPad
On Aug 22, 2019, at 7:01 AM, KC9SGV kc9sgv@gmail.com wrote:
We could go RF HF or VHF into the aggregator like we do into Echolink
nodes.
The aggregator then send the signal via commercial RF into the satellite. Of course, this signal will be degraded by HF multi path and VHF
distance constraints.
Still an Emcomm use here.
Or, we could forego the Emcomm utility, use the Internet, and go into
the aggregator via Echolink audio (computer to computer) or even use Skype, like in the early days of remote HF station use.
Of course we could also use the gold standard audio of the free RCForb
remote HF station software as found on www.remotehams.com
A R&D use here. Like this : <image1.PNG>
Bernard, KC9SGV
Sent from my iPad
On Aug 22, 2019, at 6:25 AM, John Kludt via AMSAT-BB <
amsat-bb@amsat.org> wrote:
Ev,
But the aggregator can't uplink directly to the satellite as the uplink
is outside of the amateur bands. So the aggregator must send everything to an earth station with a commercial license, correct?
Would the aggregator be single channel or work more like a linear
transponder sending along multiple signals in mixed modes at once?
Unless I am wrong, the aggregator must be colocated with the commercial
earth station or we are back into Internet required land thereby decreasing the encomm utility of this effort.
Sancho
Sent from my Verizon Motorola Smartphone
On Aug 21, 2019 22:34, Ev Tupis via AMSAT-BB amsat-bb@amsat.org
wrote:
Hi Michelle, What a fascinating opportunity. I'd like to try to describe this
using different words to see if I get it.
Echostar 9 is a geosynchronous satellite with 1 MHz of spectrum to
sell.
Both the up and down frequencies are outside of the amateur bands. To use it, an aggregator is needed. An aggregator is a "bridge"
device that converts amateur-band RF to satellite uplink RF and setellite downlink RF to amateur-band RF.
Amateurs simply need to be in range of an aggregator. It is the
aggregators responsibility to remain aimed at the satellite.
The aggregator determines if it will bridge FM or Linear (SSB, CW,
PSK31, etc.) modes.
Is this right? Regards,Ev, W2EV
On Wednesday, August 21, 2019, 9:38:12 PM EDT, Michelle Thompson
via AMSAT-BB amsat-bb@amsat.org wrote:
An arrangement on Echostar9 for 1MHz of bandwidth for up to 4 years of USA+Mexico+Canada coverage is on offer for $2000 a month.
I'm putting together a grant proposal for ARRL, FEMA, and others to
pay for
at least year of access. I've gotten some positive feedback already. I think we can make this happen with some fundraising effort. I'm
willing to
provide the human resources and whatever incidental financing needs to happen to secure a grant for rental.
The main purpose of this type of system would be to enable field
deployment
of "legacy mode" aggregators, like the Phase 4 Ground ARAP (Amateur
Radio
Access Point). This is where traffic on any ham band, using FM or
analog
gear, is digitized by a local "collecting" repeater, and is then sent
to a
satellite from that repeater. FEMA and ARRL have expressed a lot of interest and support for this in the past. Phase 4 Ground needs an
ARAP in
order to support legacy radios.
You don't have to personally have a microwave digital uplink. The aggregator equipment does that part for you.
This is most useful for public service and emergency communications. A communications emergency is declared, someone (FEMA, Red Cross,
motivated
ham volunteer) drops in the aggregator, and all ham traffic it hears is sent to the satellite and then transmitted to the entire footprint.
The downlink is 12-14GHz. This is not 10GHz, but is receivable by individuals using very inexpensive gear. Traffic can be repeated over
the
internet.
What does this get us?
An opportunity to do all the R&D for the aggregator and get some
experience
with uplinks.
What do we not have?
A true ham band downlink. You can still receive the downlink yourself,
or
you can get it over the internet from an earth station distributor.
That's where we're at with *this* proposal.
I think it's worth it to provide a US-based way to design, deploy,
test,
and use real world aggregator equipment. We learn a lot about GEO
comms and
figure out a lot of the ins and outs.
Comment and critique welcome and encouraged.
More soon! -Michelle W5NYV _______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
Opinions expressed
are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views
of AMSAT-NA.
Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
program!
Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
Opinions expressed
are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views
of AMSAT-NA.
Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
program!
Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
Opinions expressed
are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views
of AMSAT-NA.
Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
program!
Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
The idea originally came from FEMA and ARRL. It has been presented at Symposium at least twice.
As a former EMT, I have used a variety emergency communications equipment for drills and duty. I got all the ICS certifications and listened to lots and lots of schemes, proposals, and marketing from all the usual suspects, went to classes for CEUs where strange things were recommended that would never work, and did things that were essentially hacks with equipment that should have been retired before I was born. My views on emcomm are conservative and largely immaterial. If FEMA is interested in this, then finding out if it works is worth my time.
No AMSAT resources (e.g. money) are being asked for or are needed for this. It can only help AMSAT if it works, but if it doesn't, there's no harm done to the club. We're supposed to experiment and advance the radio arts. We need to understand what it means to rent transponder space.
When companies that are motivated to support amateur radio step up and do, the least we can do is listen, weigh, consider, and take them up on it if it looks like it would result in something positive. I believe this is one of those opportunities, and I'm willing to do the due diligence and see how far we can get.
In short, It is both/and, not either/or.
-Michelle W5NYV
On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 8:22 AM David Swanson via AMSAT-BB < amsat-bb@amsat.org> wrote:
The 'last mile' segment in this proposal is amateur spectrum yes, but that segment could also very easily be commercial or public safety spectrum as well. Heck, with a meg of bandwidth at 10g+ on your 'backbone' you could very easily establish a somewhat respectable packet link and then just have your "Aggregator" be nothing more than a wifi hotspot, which opens up all sorts of communication applications beyond simple push button HTs. If you're truly looking at this from an EMCOMM perspective, then the primary goal of the ESF-2 annex is 'communications infrastructure restoration' - which is ranked higher than 'tactical communications' anyway. Why screw with sending people with their HT's out to act as relays, when a pelican case with a dish and a Linksys can get everyone back on the net in 5 minutes?
Therefore, I'm confused on why this is being brought up here other than solicitation by folks who wear multiple hats. There is precisely zero benefit to AMSAT or ARRL getting involved, and committing their scarce resources to a project that won't benefit amateurs. No contact made thru this proposed method will be a valid 'qso' for folks interested in that sort of thing. No expertise or engineering will be required of the 'users' of the system, other than to tune their device to whatever frequency the Aggregator builders require of them. The only folks that would benefit from such a proposal are the aggregator builders themselves, and possibly the public - and I say possibly because commercial systems like your proposal already exist and are in common use by organizations that respond to disasters. For 60 bucks a week I can rent a basic Inmarsat turn key solution, take it anywhere on the planet, and let any of the workers I'm supporting send and receive emails while I do something productive towards saving lives instead of mashing my PTT button 23 hours a day.
The idea is cool, but only from the perspective of the people getting to build it. For those us who've actually been in the shit trying to help re-establish comms after a real disaster, we've all learned once the cell phones and internet comes back online, no one gives a crap about our radios. The moment the Verizon truck rolls up with the 3m dish and portable tower trailer, our work is done. The *real* use for Ham in disasters these days is the basic idea that our gear can establish communications without some sort of proprietary middle-hardware needed. Don't believe me? I'd be happy to send you my graduate research paper on DPEM Applications of Geo-Synchronous Satellites I did a few years back. There are applications for our hobby in disasters, find some spectrum to rent on a Geo-bird that I (or some ham in the mountains of western Puerto Rico) can use directly and I'll be the first one to donate. Until then, for 24k a year AMSAT could probably launch another pair of Fox's that would be *actual* amateur satellites.
-Dave, KG5CCI
On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 8:13 AM KC9SGV via AMSAT-BB amsat-bb@amsat.org wrote:
Grrrr.. Replies to the list via email with pictures attached get wiped ! We need a modern BB or forum like AMSAT-DL....
Here goes to the BB list again without pictures:
We could go RF HF or VHF into the aggregator like we do into Echolink nodes. The aggregator then send the signal via commercial RF into the satellite. Of course, this signal will be degraded by HF multi path and VHF distance constraints. Still an Emcomm use here.
Or, we could forego the Emcomm utility, use the Internet, and go into the aggregator via Echolink audio (computer to computer) or even use Skype, like in the early days of remote HF station use. Of course we could also use the gold standard audio of the free RCForb remote HF station software as found on www.remotehams.com A R&D use here.
KC9SGV Sent from my iPad
On Aug 22, 2019, at 7:01 AM, KC9SGV kc9sgv@gmail.com wrote:
We could go RF HF or VHF into the aggregator like we do into Echolink
nodes.
The aggregator then send the signal via commercial RF into the
satellite.
Of course, this signal will be degraded by HF multi path and VHF
distance constraints.
Still an Emcomm use here.
Or, we could forego the Emcomm utility, use the Internet, and go into
the aggregator via Echolink audio (computer to computer) or even use
Skype,
like in the early days of remote HF station use.
Of course we could also use the gold standard audio of the free RCForb
remote HF station software as found on www.remotehams.com
A R&D use here. Like this : <image1.PNG>
Bernard, KC9SGV
Sent from my iPad
On Aug 22, 2019, at 6:25 AM, John Kludt via AMSAT-BB <
amsat-bb@amsat.org> wrote:
Ev,
But the aggregator can't uplink directly to the satellite as the
uplink
is outside of the amateur bands. So the aggregator must send everything
to
an earth station with a commercial license, correct?
Would the aggregator be single channel or work more like a linear
transponder sending along multiple signals in mixed modes at once?
Unless I am wrong, the aggregator must be colocated with the
commercial
earth station or we are back into Internet required land thereby
decreasing
the encomm utility of this effort.
Sancho
Sent from my Verizon Motorola Smartphone
On Aug 21, 2019 22:34, Ev Tupis via AMSAT-BB amsat-bb@amsat.org
wrote:
Hi Michelle, What a fascinating opportunity. I'd like to try to describe this
using different words to see if I get it.
Echostar 9 is a geosynchronous satellite with 1 MHz of spectrum to
sell.
Both the up and down frequencies are outside of the amateur bands. To use it, an aggregator is needed. An aggregator is a "bridge"
device that converts amateur-band RF to satellite uplink RF and setellite downlink RF to amateur-band RF.
Amateurs simply need to be in range of an aggregator. It is the
aggregators responsibility to remain aimed at the satellite.
The aggregator determines if it will bridge FM or Linear (SSB, CW,
PSK31, etc.) modes.
Is this right? Regards,Ev, W2EV
On Wednesday, August 21, 2019, 9:38:12 PM EDT, Michelle Thompson
via AMSAT-BB amsat-bb@amsat.org wrote:
An arrangement on Echostar9 for 1MHz of bandwidth for up to 4 years
of
USA+Mexico+Canada coverage is on offer for $2000 a month.
I'm putting together a grant proposal for ARRL, FEMA, and others to
pay for
at least year of access. I've gotten some positive feedback already.
I
think we can make this happen with some fundraising effort. I'm
willing to
provide the human resources and whatever incidental financing needs
to
happen to secure a grant for rental.
The main purpose of this type of system would be to enable field
deployment
of "legacy mode" aggregators, like the Phase 4 Ground ARAP (Amateur
Radio
Access Point). This is where traffic on any ham band, using FM or
analog
gear, is digitized by a local "collecting" repeater, and is then sent
to a
satellite from that repeater. FEMA and ARRL have expressed a lot of interest and support for this in the past. Phase 4 Ground needs an
ARAP in
order to support legacy radios.
You don't have to personally have a microwave digital uplink. The aggregator equipment does that part for you.
This is most useful for public service and emergency communications.
A
communications emergency is declared, someone (FEMA, Red Cross,
motivated
ham volunteer) drops in the aggregator, and all ham traffic it hears
is
sent to the satellite and then transmitted to the entire footprint.
The downlink is 12-14GHz. This is not 10GHz, but is receivable by individuals using very inexpensive gear. Traffic can be repeated over
the
internet.
What does this get us?
An opportunity to do all the R&D for the aggregator and get some
experience
with uplinks.
What do we not have?
A true ham band downlink. You can still receive the downlink
yourself,
or
you can get it over the internet from an earth station distributor.
That's where we're at with *this* proposal.
I think it's worth it to provide a US-based way to design, deploy,
test,
and use real world aggregator equipment. We learn a lot about GEO
comms and
figure out a lot of the ins and outs.
Comment and critique welcome and encouraged.
More soon! -Michelle W5NYV _______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum
available
to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
Opinions expressed
are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views
of AMSAT-NA.
Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
program!
Subscription settings:
https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum
available
to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
Opinions expressed
are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views
of AMSAT-NA.
Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
program!
Subscription settings:
https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
Opinions expressed
are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views
of AMSAT-NA.
Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
program!
Subscription settings:
https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
Opinions
expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
program!
Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
I would be interested to see these proposals from the ARRL for Amateurs renting commercial Spectrum. I believe FEMA would have an interest as they don't care about the source of their support, but I have a very hard time believing the ARRL would support such a scheme for a number of reasons others have already mentioned. Back to FEMA though, I've applied for research grants thru the Dept. of Homeland Security Science and Technology directorate, which is where you'll get referred to if you approach FEMA for money. Based on my experience they would likely support such a proposal, but since you're making this proposal as a citizen scientist and not a ham, you're going to need to focus on making your last mile usable by everyone. Please by all means continue to research and see where it leads however this is not amateur radio, you're just playing with RF on your own accord. If you want suggestions or some names on approaching DHS-ST Despite your claim 'no amsat resources are being asked for' You have approached this mailing list with a price and hype trying to convince folks this would be our own QO-100 over North America when it is certainly not. Have discussions, talk to folks, see if you can find some funding but be honest about what you're pitching.
In short, this is playing around with electronics. It is probably interesting to some folks on this list, but it is NOT Amateur Radio in any way shape or form. Please stop trying to pass it off as such.
-Dave, KG5CCI
On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 10:43 AM Michelle Thompson < mountain.michelle@gmail.com> wrote:
The idea originally came from FEMA and ARRL. It has been presented at Symposium at least twice.
As a former EMT, I have used a variety emergency communications equipment for drills and duty. I got all the ICS certifications and listened to lots and lots of schemes, proposals, and marketing from all the usual suspects, went to classes for CEUs where strange things were recommended that would never work, and did things that were essentially hacks with equipment that should have been retired before I was born. My views on emcomm are conservative and largely immaterial. If FEMA is interested in this, then finding out if it works is worth my time.
No AMSAT resources (e.g. money) are being asked for or are needed for this. It can only help AMSAT if it works, but if it doesn't, there's no harm done to the club. We're supposed to experiment and advance the radio arts. We need to understand what it means to rent transponder space.
When companies that are motivated to support amateur radio step up and do, the least we can do is listen, weigh, consider, and take them up on it if it looks like it would result in something positive. I believe this is one of those opportunities, and I'm willing to do the due diligence and see how far we can get.
In short, It is both/and, not either/or.
-Michelle W5NYV
On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 8:22 AM David Swanson via AMSAT-BB < amsat-bb@amsat.org> wrote:
The 'last mile' segment in this proposal is amateur spectrum yes, but that segment could also very easily be commercial or public safety spectrum as well. Heck, with a meg of bandwidth at 10g+ on your 'backbone' you could very easily establish a somewhat respectable packet link and then just have your "Aggregator" be nothing more than a wifi hotspot, which opens up all sorts of communication applications beyond simple push button HTs. If you're truly looking at this from an EMCOMM perspective, then the primary goal of the ESF-2 annex is 'communications infrastructure restoration' - which is ranked higher than 'tactical communications' anyway. Why screw with sending people with their HT's out to act as relays, when a pelican case with a dish and a Linksys can get everyone back on the net in 5 minutes?
Therefore, I'm confused on why this is being brought up here other than solicitation by folks who wear multiple hats. There is precisely zero benefit to AMSAT or ARRL getting involved, and committing their scarce resources to a project that won't benefit amateurs. No contact made thru this proposed method will be a valid 'qso' for folks interested in that sort of thing. No expertise or engineering will be required of the 'users' of the system, other than to tune their device to whatever frequency the Aggregator builders require of them. The only folks that would benefit from such a proposal are the aggregator builders themselves, and possibly the public - and I say possibly because commercial systems like your proposal already exist and are in common use by organizations that respond to disasters. For 60 bucks a week I can rent a basic Inmarsat turn key solution, take it anywhere on the planet, and let any of the workers I'm supporting send and receive emails while I do something productive towards saving lives instead of mashing my PTT button 23 hours a day.
The idea is cool, but only from the perspective of the people getting to build it. For those us who've actually been in the shit trying to help re-establish comms after a real disaster, we've all learned once the cell phones and internet comes back online, no one gives a crap about our radios. The moment the Verizon truck rolls up with the 3m dish and portable tower trailer, our work is done. The *real* use for Ham in disasters these days is the basic idea that our gear can establish communications without some sort of proprietary middle-hardware needed. Don't believe me? I'd be happy to send you my graduate research paper on DPEM Applications of Geo-Synchronous Satellites I did a few years back. There are applications for our hobby in disasters, find some spectrum to rent on a Geo-bird that I (or some ham in the mountains of western Puerto Rico) can use directly and I'll be the first one to donate. Until then, for 24k a year AMSAT could probably launch another pair of Fox's that would be *actual* amateur satellites.
-Dave, KG5CCI
On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 8:13 AM KC9SGV via AMSAT-BB amsat-bb@amsat.org wrote:
Grrrr.. Replies to the list via email with pictures attached get wiped ! We need a modern BB or forum like AMSAT-DL....
Here goes to the BB list again without pictures:
We could go RF HF or VHF into the aggregator like we do into Echolink nodes. The aggregator then send the signal via commercial RF into the
satellite.
Of course, this signal will be degraded by HF multi path and VHF
distance
constraints. Still an Emcomm use here.
Or, we could forego the Emcomm utility, use the Internet, and go into
the
aggregator via Echolink audio (computer to computer) or even use Skype, like in the early days of remote HF station use. Of course we could also use the gold standard audio of the free RCForb remote HF station software as found on www.remotehams.com A R&D use here.
KC9SGV Sent from my iPad
On Aug 22, 2019, at 7:01 AM, KC9SGV kc9sgv@gmail.com wrote:
We could go RF HF or VHF into the aggregator like we do into Echolink
nodes.
The aggregator then send the signal via commercial RF into the
satellite.
Of course, this signal will be degraded by HF multi path and VHF
distance constraints.
Still an Emcomm use here.
Or, we could forego the Emcomm utility, use the Internet, and go into
the aggregator via Echolink audio (computer to computer) or even use
Skype,
like in the early days of remote HF station use.
Of course we could also use the gold standard audio of the free RCForb
remote HF station software as found on www.remotehams.com
A R&D use here. Like this : <image1.PNG>
Bernard, KC9SGV
Sent from my iPad
On Aug 22, 2019, at 6:25 AM, John Kludt via AMSAT-BB <
amsat-bb@amsat.org> wrote:
Ev,
But the aggregator can't uplink directly to the satellite as the
uplink
is outside of the amateur bands. So the aggregator must send
everything to
an earth station with a commercial license, correct?
Would the aggregator be single channel or work more like a linear
transponder sending along multiple signals in mixed modes at once?
Unless I am wrong, the aggregator must be colocated with the
commercial
earth station or we are back into Internet required land thereby
decreasing
the encomm utility of this effort.
Sancho
Sent from my Verizon Motorola Smartphone
On Aug 21, 2019 22:34, Ev Tupis via AMSAT-BB amsat-bb@amsat.org
wrote:
Hi Michelle, What a fascinating opportunity. I'd like to try to describe this
using different words to see if I get it.
Echostar 9 is a geosynchronous satellite with 1 MHz of spectrum to
sell.
Both the up and down frequencies are outside of the amateur bands. To use it, an aggregator is needed. An aggregator is a "bridge"
device that converts amateur-band RF to satellite uplink RF and
setellite
downlink RF to amateur-band RF.
Amateurs simply need to be in range of an aggregator. It is the
aggregators responsibility to remain aimed at the satellite.
The aggregator determines if it will bridge FM or Linear (SSB, CW,
PSK31, etc.) modes.
Is this right? Regards,Ev, W2EV
On Wednesday, August 21, 2019, 9:38:12 PM EDT, Michelle Thompson
via AMSAT-BB amsat-bb@amsat.org wrote:
An arrangement on Echostar9 for 1MHz of bandwidth for up to 4 years
of
USA+Mexico+Canada coverage is on offer for $2000 a month.
I'm putting together a grant proposal for ARRL, FEMA, and others to
pay for
at least year of access. I've gotten some positive feedback
already. I
think we can make this happen with some fundraising effort. I'm
willing to
provide the human resources and whatever incidental financing needs
to
happen to secure a grant for rental.
The main purpose of this type of system would be to enable field
deployment
of "legacy mode" aggregators, like the Phase 4 Ground ARAP (Amateur
Radio
Access Point). This is where traffic on any ham band, using FM or
analog
gear, is digitized by a local "collecting" repeater, and is then
sent
to a
satellite from that repeater. FEMA and ARRL have expressed a lot of interest and support for this in the past. Phase 4 Ground needs an
ARAP in
order to support legacy radios.
You don't have to personally have a microwave digital uplink. The aggregator equipment does that part for you.
This is most useful for public service and emergency
communications. A
communications emergency is declared, someone (FEMA, Red Cross,
motivated
ham volunteer) drops in the aggregator, and all ham traffic it
hears is
sent to the satellite and then transmitted to the entire footprint.
The downlink is 12-14GHz. This is not 10GHz, but is receivable by individuals using very inexpensive gear. Traffic can be repeated
over
the
internet.
What does this get us?
An opportunity to do all the R&D for the aggregator and get some
experience
with uplinks.
What do we not have?
A true ham band downlink. You can still receive the downlink
yourself,
or
you can get it over the internet from an earth station distributor.
That's where we're at with *this* proposal.
I think it's worth it to provide a US-based way to design, deploy,
test,
and use real world aggregator equipment. We learn a lot about GEO
comms and
figure out a lot of the ins and outs.
Comment and critique welcome and encouraged.
More soon! -Michelle W5NYV _______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum
available
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in line response...
On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 1:19 PM David Swanson via AMSAT-BB amsat-bb@amsat.org wrote:
You have approached this mailing list with a price and hype trying to convince folks this would be our own QO-100 over North America when it is certainly not. Have discussions, talk to folks, see if you can find some funding but be honest about what you're pitching.
She did not try to convince anyone this would be a QO-100 over NA. She said the main thing it got us was R&D for the "aggregator" and that it did NOT get us a true ham band downlink.
In short, this is playing around with electronics. It is probably interesting to some folks on this list, but it is NOT Amateur Radio in any way shape or form. Please stop trying to pass it off as such.
If you build an aggregator as described it is similar to how many use DMR or D-Star hotspots, which is partially ham radio, and more radio than those because the downlink is RF.
73, John Brier KG4AKV
Grrrr.. Replies to the list via email with pictures attached get wiped ! We need a modern BB or forum like AMSAT-DL....
A large number of members have previously said they prefer a plain e-mail list without the overhead of huge files with JPG attachments or needing to figure out how to navigate yet another forum layout. The amsat-bb has 2425 e-mail addresses on the subscriber list.
Other AMSAT internet venues which allow posting photos include:
AMSAT on Facebook with 3149 group members who can post photos (and 5233 likes of the page).
AMSAT on Twitter has ~14,600 followers.
Not to derail the conversation but groups.io is very easy to use. You can just send and receive email to the group if you don't want to use the web interface. Searches are so much easier than this archaic list and I would guess that most hams with any technical interest already belong to at least one or twenty io or yahoo groups and are familiar with them.
Dave N2OA
On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 12:09 PM JoAnne K9JKM via AMSAT-BB < amsat-bb@amsat.org> wrote:
Grrrr.. Replies to the list via email with pictures attached get wiped ! We need a modern BB or forum like AMSAT-DL....
A large number of members have previously said they prefer a plain e-mail list without the overhead of huge files with JPG attachments or needing to figure out how to navigate yet another forum layout. The amsat-bb has 2425 e-mail addresses on the subscriber list.
Other AMSAT internet venues which allow posting photos include:
AMSAT on Facebook with 3149 group members who can post photos (and 5233 likes of the page).
AMSAT on Twitter has ~14,600 followers.
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Yup, I agree. IO Groups. Like this following group.... Easy attachments, pictures, videos, etc. Get your point across with images and proof. "A picture is worth a thousand words." https://groups.io/g/Winlink The moderator is a very nice, laid back guy.
Bernard.
Sent from my iPad
On Aug 22, 2019, at 2:46 PM, Dave via AMSAT-BB amsat-bb@amsat.org wrote:
Not to derail the conversation but groups.io is very easy to use. You can just send and receive email to the group if you don't want to use the web interface. Searches are so much easier than this archaic list and I would guess that most hams with any technical interest already belong to at least one or twenty io or yahoo groups and are familiar with them.
Dave N2OA
On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 12:09 PM JoAnne K9JKM via AMSAT-BB < amsat-bb@amsat.org> wrote:
Grrrr.. Replies to the list via email with pictures attached get wiped ! We need a modern BB or forum like AMSAT-DL....
A large number of members have previously said they prefer a plain e-mail list without the overhead of huge files with JPG attachments or needing to figure out how to navigate yet another forum layout. The amsat-bb has 2425 e-mail addresses on the subscriber list.
Other AMSAT internet venues which allow posting photos include:
AMSAT on Facebook with 3149 group members who can post photos (and 5233 likes of the page).
AMSAT on Twitter has ~14,600 followers.
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Not quite sure how discussing how the newsgroups is run is relevant to the thread.
I'm personally a fan of pain text emails which no attachments more so as I don't have to worry about infected files, I'm not on 10+ newsgroups I'm on 3 they are all run by the group's independent of third parties.
This suits most of the content posted. images could easily be shared by the likes of OneDrive, Dropbox etc.
On Thu, 22 Aug 2019, 21:34 KC9SGV via AMSAT-BB, amsat-bb@amsat.org wrote:
Yup, I agree. IO Groups. Like this following group.... Easy attachments, pictures, videos, etc. Get your point across with images and proof. "A picture is worth a thousand words." https://groups.io/g/Winlink The moderator is a very nice, laid back guy.
Bernard.
Sent from my iPad
On Aug 22, 2019, at 2:46 PM, Dave via AMSAT-BB amsat-bb@amsat.org
wrote:
Not to derail the conversation but groups.io is very easy to use. You
can
just send and receive email to the group if you don't want to use the web interface. Searches are so much easier than this archaic list and I would guess that most hams with any technical interest already belong to at
least
one or twenty io or yahoo groups and are familiar with them.
Dave N2OA
On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 12:09 PM JoAnne K9JKM via AMSAT-BB < amsat-bb@amsat.org> wrote:
Grrrr.. Replies to the list via email with pictures attached get wiped ! We need a modern BB or forum like AMSAT-DL....
A large number of members have previously said they prefer a plain
list without the overhead of huge files with JPG attachments or needing
to
figure out how to navigate yet another forum layout. The amsat-bb has
2425
e-mail addresses on the subscriber list.
Other AMSAT internet venues which allow posting photos include:
AMSAT on Facebook with 3149 group members who can post photos (and 5233 likes of the page).
AMSAT on Twitter has ~14,600 followers.
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
Opinions
expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
program!
Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
Opinions expressed
are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
AMSAT-NA.
Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
program!
Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
A modern, user friendly newsgroup is relevant here, as we start building new dish antennas, COTS 12GHz downlink receivers, etc. See the nice, modern AMSAT-DL forum. So much easier to share knowledge with images, videos and easy searches. I understand this AMSAT BB was probably created way back when in the 1970's or earlier. It shows. But I understand that "it was always like this."
Having to put up links to pictures, is archaic. I used to host all my pictures on Photobucket for free, and link to them. Now, I cannot access them unless I pay. (New management, I guess.) So, I lost interest, and the password....
KC9SGV
Sent from my iPad
On Aug 22, 2019, at 3:41 PM, Peter Goodhall (2M0SQL) peter@magicbug.co.uk wrote:
Not quite sure how discussing how the newsgroups is run is relevant to the thread.
I'm personally a fan of pain text emails which no attachments more so as I don't have to worry about infected files, I'm not on 10+ newsgroups I'm on 3 they are all run by the group's independent of third parties.
This suits most of the content posted. images could easily be shared by the likes of OneDrive, Dropbox etc.
On Thu, 22 Aug 2019, 21:34 KC9SGV via AMSAT-BB, amsat-bb@amsat.org wrote: Yup, I agree. IO Groups. Like this following group.... Easy attachments, pictures, videos, etc. Get your point across with images and proof. "A picture is worth a thousand words." https://groups.io/g/Winlink The moderator is a very nice, laid back guy.
Bernard.
Sent from my iPad
On Aug 22, 2019, at 2:46 PM, Dave via AMSAT-BB amsat-bb@amsat.org wrote:
Not to derail the conversation but groups.io is very easy to use. You can just send and receive email to the group if you don't want to use the web interface. Searches are so much easier than this archaic list and I would guess that most hams with any technical interest already belong to at least one or twenty io or yahoo groups and are familiar with them.
Dave N2OA
On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 12:09 PM JoAnne K9JKM via AMSAT-BB < amsat-bb@amsat.org> wrote:
Grrrr.. Replies to the list via email with pictures attached get wiped ! We need a modern BB or forum like AMSAT-DL....
A large number of members have previously said they prefer a plain e-mail list without the overhead of huge files with JPG attachments or needing to figure out how to navigate yet another forum layout. The amsat-bb has 2425 e-mail addresses on the subscriber list.
Other AMSAT internet venues which allow posting photos include:
AMSAT on Facebook with 3149 group members who can post photos (and 5233 likes of the page).
AMSAT on Twitter has ~14,600 followers.
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
participants (7)
-
Dave -
David Swanson -
JoAnne K9JKM -
John Brier -
KC9SGV -
Michelle Thompson -
Peter Goodhall (2M0SQL)