I no longer read the AMSAT bulletin board. I have intentionally not operated the satellites for several months. I have some local friends who still do read AMSAT BB and attempt to operate the satellites. They forwarded to me W4AS and WD9EWK's emails concerning the (quite predictable) debacle with K5D.
My two local friends who continue to read AMSAT BB and operate AO 51 are very disgusted with the operating on AO 51. It got to the point with me that any attempts to show leadership by example or the written word received a substantial amount of push back. So I put my ham radio operating in a different mode.
I have been a licensed amateur since October 1952 and I have worked every DX entity except North Korea. My total on the ARRL DXCC Honor Roll is 364 entities. I only cite my background in order to show some sense of credibility and knowledge. I worked the satellites back in circa 1974 ( Oscar 6 ) when it took some technical savvy to adjust for the Doppler effect. It was fun and working some DX was a thrill that still lingers.
Upon my recent retirement I decided to equip my station with a satellite setup. I have a substantial amount of money invested ( $3500 ) in antennas and transceiver. I can work just about anything that I can hear. Since August 2008 until December I made more than 800 QSOs in 200 grids and 15 countries. I met a lot of fine people who gave me good advice.
Unfortunately the operation of AO 51 is a large embarrassment. I have never in 56 years of operating ever seen demonstrated such poor operating procedures. I am not writing this note to trash AMSAT. I could continue to operate, experiment and enjoy HF and VHF radio and ignore the Satellite operation. However, I have always thought when you see something that is terribly wrong you have an obligation for the ( Ham and AMSAT ) community to speak out. That is the spirit in which I write.
Operating an FM repeater on a satellite is asking for trouble. To attempt to work DX on an FM repeater is a guarantee for trouble. Some operators have very little operating experience of any kind. They take the lead of others they hear operating. I read the AMSAT Journal in a matter of minutes and never look at it again. The articles remind me of an IEEE Journal. Most ( not all ) of the authors are not currently active on the satellites based upon my constant use of the birds for four months. Very little is written about how to operate. There is a need for such articles. Sebastian, W4AS is correct in stating that there are a substantial number of users who never read or are even aware of the AMSAT BB. Fewer yet are AMSAT members who get the Journal.
If you think that AO 51 represents the normal operating ability of the average ham you are dreaming. AO 51 represents the VERY WORST operating I have every witnessed. It is an embarrassment. I could list dozens of examples but that would be a waste of time.
AO 51 is not the only satellite. I had to give up on AO 7 because of a K3 station who continues to use high power and trashes the transponder for others who would like to use it. I have had numerous people write me about that station. You can copy him in 5 or 6 spots when he transmits. That is an embarrassment too. Yet nobody speaks out. It reminds me of the fable about the Emperor and his new clothes.
I have heard some licensed operators turn the microphone over to their kid who then CQs after CQs. . . .I list that of the many infractions because it is easy to cure. Tell the operator to take the microphone back.
The satellites with transponders go relatively unused. Why ? If you do not know the answer then you do not understand the question.
To those that continue to use and hopefully enjoy AO 51 jump in and speak out when you see somebody doing something that is not helpful to the satellite community. I think Sebastian did. I know that Patrick also has his heart in the right place.
I recently travelled to the Turks & Caicos Islands for a vacation and some radio operating. I got to use a rare prefix VQ5 rather than VP5. A couple of my local friends asked if I was going to operate the satellites. I just looked at them and smiled. They did too. I worked HF and it was enjoyable.
73 Jim W9VNE
I am a new operator on the sat's. I started back in mid December of 08.
I can tell you that I don't even look at the AO-51 pass data much any more for the same things Jim has listed.
Its more like "Contest Mode" that any thing else and not just with the K5D thing.
I have been checking to see what is going on with the K5D pass's but like all of you, loose interest vary fast.
I think that if a DX station is going to be working the birds he should have all the power he can get.
Let him clear his own way on the band and everyone will give him space.
If that DX station can't make it in with a good signal they have no chance of controlling the space he will need.
Just a thought and that's only my own.
Marv
N0FJP
----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Danehy" jdanehy@cinci.rr.com To: AMSAT-BB@amsat.org Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 2:04 PM Subject: [amsat-bb] K5D an embarrassment [snip]
AO 51 is not the only satellite. I had to give up on AO 7 because of a K3 station who continues to use high power and trashes the transponder for others who would like to use it. I have had numerous people write me about that station. You can copy him in 5 or 6 spots when he transmits. That is an embarrassment too. Yet nobody speaks out. It reminds me of the fable about the Emperor and his new clothes.
I'll second the alligator problem on AO-7.... I was listening to a Mode B pass the other evening, and the poor girl's AGC was pumping away in time with the signal of a VERY over-powered SSB station, who I won't name...
*This* time....
George, KA3HSW
Hello Jim! I have to agree with you and disagree with you. It never seizes to amaze me how we use the lens of how it was in the old days all so often. I have been around amateur radio all my life. Dad is a ham,. mother is a ham, brother is a ham, my yl is a ham. By no means does this mean I am an expert, but feel that the culture is what makes the difference.
Before the use of split RX and TX, what is being experience on AO-51 was considered the norm when it came to rare dx on HF. If you listen longer enough on HF , you will witness it yourself even today. On 80 meters for example.
Over the years experience dxers realized the need for control of the pile up. Many different means were used to control this poor operating practices of stations calling over each other over the years. Dx control person, calling cq by the numbers, zones, and even times were given out at one time. All which accomplished somewhat of a solution to the problem.
I have to admire the fact that Amsat and member took the time to offer Satellite operation when it came to this expedition to the K5D team, but failed to realized that these operators really had no clue what they were about to experience on the air on a flying repeater, being the main focus of attention ( rare grid), be stuck to one frequency and with the task of making as many contact as possible in a 12 minutes window. Also lets not forget the issue with the real low low audio adding to the problems.
Dxing in itself is competitive in nature. Sometime the excitement of working a rare station overcomes the come sense of good operating practices, even on HF as well. By no means am I saying it is right, but this is where the experience operators come to play. Many of us often forget what an experience portable satellite operator has to do during a pass. Now try and add a rate grid and a non-experience operator can lead to a formula for what we are experiencing today on AO-51.
I admire the K5D team for sticking it out and for KO4MA showing restraint for not turning off the repeater.
All in all, revisiting of this issue reminded me of fact that satellite operators should only make one out going call to give others an opportunity to use the bird. So, I want to thank you for helping me realign myself again and hope I add to good leadership for my fellow amateur satellite operators.
Jim, am sorry you have left this part of the hobby but hope that maybe some day you will return to help be a Elmer to some of the new satellite operators that need it. I heard a statement on AO-51 tonight from an operator I admire and look up to. In so many words he said, I would rather not put my 2 cents in and get flamed at for his views. I hope that if I do get flames I can put then out in time.. HI HI
Remember, we all can learn and we need experience operators like yourself to help grow the hobby in the right direction. People can change! :-)
73 de Angelo N5UXT
-------------------------------------------------- From: "Jim Danehy" jdanehy@cinci.rr.com Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 2:04 PM To: AMSAT-BB@amsat.org Subject: [amsat-bb] K5D an embarrassment
I no longer read the AMSAT bulletin board. I have intentionally not operated the satellites for several months. I have some local friends who still do read AMSAT BB and attempt to operate the satellites. They forwarded to me W4AS and WD9EWK's emails concerning the (quite predictable) debacle with K5D.
My two local friends who continue to read AMSAT BB and operate AO 51 are very disgusted with the operating on AO 51. It got to the point with me that any attempts to show leadership by example or the written word received a substantial amount of push back. So I put my ham radio operating in a different mode.
I have been a licensed amateur since October 1952 and I have worked every DX entity except North Korea. My total on the ARRL DXCC Honor Roll is 364 entities. I only cite my background in order to show some sense of credibility and knowledge. I worked the satellites back in circa 1974 ( Oscar 6 ) when it took some technical savvy to adjust for the Doppler effect. It was fun and working some DX was a thrill that still lingers.
Upon my recent retirement I decided to equip my station with a satellite setup. I have a substantial amount of money invested ( $3500 ) in antennas and transceiver. I can work just about anything that I can hear. Since August 2008 until December I made more than 800 QSOs in 200 grids and 15 countries. I met a lot of fine people who gave me good advice.
Unfortunately the operation of AO 51 is a large embarrassment. I have never in 56 years of operating ever seen demonstrated such poor operating procedures. I am not writing this note to trash AMSAT. I could continue to operate, experiment and enjoy HF and VHF radio and ignore the Satellite operation. However, I have always thought when you see something that is terribly wrong you have an obligation for the ( Ham and AMSAT ) community to speak out. That is the spirit in which I write.
Operating an FM repeater on a satellite is asking for trouble. To attempt to work DX on an FM repeater is a guarantee for trouble. Some operators have very little operating experience of any kind. They take the lead of others they hear operating. I read the AMSAT Journal in a matter of minutes and never look at it again. The articles remind me of an IEEE Journal. Most ( not all ) of the authors are not currently active on the satellites based upon my constant use of the birds for four months. Very little is written about how to operate. There is a need for such articles. Sebastian, W4AS is correct in stating that there are a substantial number of users who never read or are even aware of the AMSAT BB. Fewer yet are AMSAT members who get the Journal.
If you think that AO 51 represents the normal operating ability of the average ham you are dreaming. AO 51 represents the VERY WORST operating I have every witnessed. It is an embarrassment. I could list dozens of examples but that would be a waste of time.
AO 51 is not the only satellite. I had to give up on AO 7 because of a K3 station who continues to use high power and trashes the transponder for others who would like to use it. I have had numerous people write me about that station. You can copy him in 5 or 6 spots when he transmits. That is an embarrassment too. Yet nobody speaks out. It reminds me of the fable about the Emperor and his new clothes.
I have heard some licensed operators turn the microphone over to their kid who then CQs after CQs. . . .I list that of the many infractions because it is easy to cure. Tell the operator to take the microphone back.
The satellites with transponders go relatively unused. Why ? If you do not know the answer then you do not understand the question.
To those that continue to use and hopefully enjoy AO 51 jump in and speak out when you see somebody doing something that is not helpful to the satellite community. I think Sebastian did. I know that Patrick also has his heart in the right place.
I recently travelled to the Turks & Caicos Islands for a vacation and some radio operating. I got to use a rare prefix VQ5 rather than VP5. A couple of my local friends asked if I was going to operate the satellites. I just looked at them and smiled. They did too. I worked HF and it was enjoyable.
73 Jim W9VNE _______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Angelo N5UXT
Thank you for writing. I have had quite a few responses direct to me and off the AMSAT BB . . . but since your email provided me the opportunity to reply to ALL and copy the BB I am using that opportunity . . .the direct responses have all been favorable . . . I still do not read AMSAT BB . . . thanks to all who have written direct . . .
. . . I usually end up operating from some island ( DX Country ) every year. . . this year my operation was from VP5 land and it was all CW a few weeks ago . . . I do not operate split frequency . . . I am old school and I am able to run pile ups at high rates like K5D without telling the callers where to go to call . . . I consider (and many of my old school peers join me) spreading stations out over 5khz to 10 khz a disgrace . . . I hear a DX station taking up 5 khz to 10 khz of spectrum which just shows poor operating because they can not pick out stations unless they are spread out so wide. . . I usually respond to callers within 1 khz of my operating frequency . . . . infrequently responding to sharp operators who call below my frequency (and in the clear) . . . I also operate without using the CW filters so I can hear more stations at once and use the filter in my brain to pick out stations . . . it is a skill that has taken decades to achieve . . .my CW speed usually is 35 + wpm . . .I suggest that those who want to learn how to operate CW DX purchase Bob Locher, W9KNI's book on : How to Work DX . . . ARRL sells it . . . Bob and I went to college together 50 years ago and he makes the famous Bencher paddles . . .
You and I can agree that there are different cultures, that is life . . . I consider myself somewhat of an iconoclast in today's culture but mainstream when it comes to getting things done efficiently and effectively . . . making the maximum QSOs in the shortest time frame . .. that is how the game is played on a DXpedition like K5D . . .
years ago (1952) the DX on Ten Meters had privileges below 28.5 mhz on AM phone and that is where a lot of the DX operated. American hams did not have operating privileges below 28.5 and operated split (on phone) . . . you adapted if you wanted to catch the DX and it took some ingenuity . . .things do change and folks need to adapt . . . but spreading out so wide shows poor operating ability on the DX operator . .
what is abundantly clear on AO 51 is a lack of respect for your fellow operator . . . an intolerance for patience . . . when some well known operators go to a rare grid square (grid square collecting as you know is a common addiction to the AO 51 operator) and announce that they are operating portable from Grid XX xx folks just call CQ or operate on top of the station who has taken time and spent money to go somewhere for their fellow operator . . . an example of lack of respect and us old timers call that being a LID . . .
like others I have taken the time to email or call on the telephone operators who have NO EARS (can not hear but continue to call to the annoyance of the community) . . . I have helped several and received their gratitude . . . others told me to mind my own business . . . I do not feel I should mind my own business . . . it is MY BUSINESS that all hams show respect to others and to the hobby that most of us love . . . I still enjoy CW on the transponder satellites from time to time . . . most of those that have replied direct to me and off AMSAT BB agree with me and feel that AO 51 is a shining example of CB Radio at its worst. . . it is what it is (modern saying) . .
as for flaming . . . there is no place for lack of civility . . . thanks for your view point . . .attempting to work DX on a satellite via an FM repeater is a fool's folly . . . I personally know several of the K5D operators. . . I doubt that they had any idea of what to expect from their satellite experience . . . they do now . . . having operated on several large DXpeditions where RATE (total number of QSOs) is the goal there will be a reluctance in the future to allocate the hauling of gear and the expenditure of time to working the satellites . . . just my opinion . . . I do favor free speech and civility. . . thank you for taking the time to write . .
NO I have not left this (satellite) part of the hobby . . . I got back on after being off for 30 years plus and successfully achieved a goal of making a contact with the International Space Station (ISS) . . . that was one of my biggest thrills in ham radio . . I cherish the recording of that exchange . . .
my current station for the birds is a good one with elevation and azimuth control and 12 db + yagis . . . also computer assist on control of the doppler effect . . . learning how to assemble such a station and integrate the software and hardware was a learning experience . . . the operating just helps me validate my ability to do it properly . . .I had assistance from others who heard me making some mistakes .. . I owe then a debt of gratitude for their help . . . . .I doubt that the LIDS on AO51 use the sophistication that is available to them . . . that is why the transponders (SSB/CW) are free of poor operating . . . and how you get suprised by having stations like HR1LW call you on CW on VO 52 . . .
you might even hear me on AO 51 again . . . I learned long ago never to rule out anything . . . but like a lot of folks I try to avoid listening to poor operating by LIDS . . .
73 Jim W9VNE
Just a comment about comparing HF DX pile ups with Leo satellite operation: Quite a few SSB or CW signals can coexist on nearly the same frequency. FM the strongest signal wins and the rest are buried. If two or more FM stations transmit simultaneously at nearly the same intensity, the result is garbled noise.
HF DX pile ups can spread out in frequency or work spit frequency. On a single FM channel, off freq operation results in poor distorted audio with no info being passed. The solution to a single simplex FM operation is some sense of cooperation.
So the similarity between HF and satellite are not a very good comparison. The existence of huge noise and not much effective communications is probably the only thing in common. I haven't been QRV on satellites since the demise of AO-40, except a couple times on UO-14 and copying AO-51 telemetry.
I am lucky that over the pole the satellite is pretty quiet since its footprint does not include the lower-48 for a good part of a pass. But then I do not chase DX on HF much, either!
Just my two cents! 73, Ed - KL7UW celebrated 50-years as a ham Nov. 11, 2008 Involved with Amsat since AO-6
PS: having just gotten a Triband antenna up on a tower last November, kind of enjoying working some 20m!
At 05:25 PM 2/23/2009, Angelo Glorioso (n5uxt) wrote:
Hello Jim! I have to agree with you and disagree with you. It never seizes to amaze me how we use the lens of how it was in the old days all so often. I have been around amateur radio all my life. Dad is a ham,. mother is a ham, brother is a ham, my yl is a ham. By no means does this mean I am an expert, but feel that the culture is what makes the difference.
Before the use of split RX and TX, what is being experience on AO-51 was considered the norm when it came to rare dx on HF. If you listen longer enough on HF , you will witness it yourself even today. On 80 meters for example.
Over the years experience dxers realized the need for control of the pile up. Many different means were used to control this poor operating practices of stations calling over each other over the years. Dx control person, calling cq by the numbers, zones, and even times were given out at one time. All which accomplished somewhat of a solution to the problem.
I have to admire the fact that Amsat and member took the time to offer Satellite operation when it came to this expedition to the K5D team, but failed to realized that these operators really had no clue what they were about to experience on the air on a flying repeater, being the main focus of attention ( rare grid), be stuck to one frequency and with the task of making as many contact as possible in a 12 minutes window. Also lets not forget the issue with the real low low audio adding to the problems.
Dxing in itself is competitive in nature. Sometime the excitement of working a rare station overcomes the come sense of good operating practices, even on HF as well. By no means am I saying it is right, but this is where the experience operators come to play. Many of us often forget what an experience portable satellite operator has to do during a pass. Now try and add a rate grid and a non-experience operator can lead to a formula for what we are experiencing today on AO-51.
I admire the K5D team for sticking it out and for KO4MA showing restraint for not turning off the repeater.
All in all, revisiting of this issue reminded me of fact that satellite operators should only make one out going call to give others an opportunity to use the bird. So, I want to thank you for helping me realign myself again and hope I add to good leadership for my fellow amateur satellite operators.
Jim, am sorry you have left this part of the hobby but hope that maybe some day you will return to help be a Elmer to some of the new satellite operators that need it. I heard a statement on AO-51 tonight from an operator I admire and look up to. In so many words he said, I would rather not put my 2 cents in and get flamed at for his views. I hope that if I do get flames I can put then out in time.. HI HI
Remember, we all can learn and we need experience operators like yourself to help grow the hobby in the right direction. People can change! :-)
73 de Angelo N5UXT
From: "Jim Danehy" jdanehy@cinci.rr.com Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 2:04 PM To: AMSAT-BB@amsat.org Subject: [amsat-bb] K5D an embarrassment
I no longer read the AMSAT bulletin board. I have intentionally not operated the satellites for several months. I have some local friends who still do read AMSAT BB and attempt to operate the satellites. They forwarded to me W4AS and WD9EWK's emails concerning the (quite predictable) debacle with K5D.
My two local friends who continue to read AMSAT BB and operate AO 51 are very disgusted with the operating on AO 51. It got to the point with me that any attempts to show leadership by example or the written word received a substantial amount of push back. So I put my ham radio operating in a different mode.
I have been a licensed amateur since October 1952 and I have worked every DX entity except North Korea. My total on the ARRL DXCC Honor Roll is 364 entities. I only cite my background in order to show some sense of credibility and knowledge. I worked the satellites back in circa 1974 ( Oscar 6 ) when it took some technical savvy to adjust for the Doppler effect. It was fun and working some DX was a thrill that still lingers.
Upon my recent retirement I decided to equip my station with a satellite setup. I have a substantial amount of money invested ( $3500 ) in antennas and transceiver. I can work just about anything that I can hear. Since August 2008 until December I made more than 800 QSOs in 200 grids and 15 countries. I met a lot of fine people who gave me good advice.
Unfortunately the operation of AO 51 is a large embarrassment. I have never in 56 years of operating ever seen demonstrated such poor operating procedures. I am not writing this note to trash AMSAT. I could continue to operate, experiment and enjoy HF and VHF radio and ignore the Satellite operation. However, I have always thought when you see something that is terribly wrong you have an obligation for the ( Ham and AMSAT ) community to speak out. That is the spirit in which I write.
Operating an FM repeater on a satellite is asking for trouble. To attempt to work DX on an FM repeater is a guarantee for trouble. Some operators have very little operating experience of any kind. They take the lead of others they hear operating. I read the AMSAT Journal in a matter of minutes and never look at it again. The articles remind me of an IEEE Journal. Most ( not all ) of the authors are not currently active on the satellites based upon my constant use of the birds for four months. Very little is written about how to operate. There is a need for such articles. Sebastian, W4AS is correct in stating that there are a substantial number of users who never read or are even aware of the AMSAT BB. Fewer yet are AMSAT members who get the Journal.
If you think that AO 51 represents the normal operating ability of the average ham you are dreaming. AO 51 represents the VERY WORST operating I have every witnessed. It is an embarrassment. I could list dozens of examples but that would be a waste of time.
AO 51 is not the only satellite. I had to give up on AO 7 because of a K3 station who continues to use high power and trashes the transponder for others who would like to use it. I have had numerous people write me about that station. You can copy him in 5 or 6 spots when he transmits. That is an embarrassment too. Yet nobody speaks out. It reminds me of the fable about the Emperor and his new clothes.
I have heard some licensed operators turn the microphone over to their kid who then CQs after CQs. . . .I list that of the many infractions because it is easy to cure. Tell the operator to take the microphone back.
The satellites with transponders go relatively unused. Why ? If you do not know the answer then you do not understand the question.
To those that continue to use and hopefully enjoy AO 51 jump in and speak out when you see somebody doing something that is not helpful to the satellite community. I think Sebastian did. I know that Patrick also has his heart in the right place.
I recently travelled to the Turks & Caicos Islands for a vacation and some radio operating. I got to use a rare prefix VQ5 rather than VP5. A couple of my local friends asked if I was going to operate the satellites. I just looked at them and smiled. They did too. I worked HF and it was enjoyable.
73 Jim W9VNE _______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
participants (5)
-
Angelo Glorioso (n5uxt) -
Edward Cole -
George Henry -
Jim Danehy -
racer5039