A club member from W6SD asked me if I could come to their FD site in Granada Hills CA to do the satellite contact for them. I said I would do it. I had planned ahead, figured out a list of the better passes of the FM sats and FO-29. Got set up and tried SO-50. We were fortunate. It was coming in from the south and the footprint didn't reach a lot of land yet. I heard WD9EWK on there and figured, "If anyone can work us through all of this, he can!" And he did. Well done.
I had a small group around me as I did this. N7JY was holding the Elk and his Android tablet, watching the sat path and doing the aiming. I posted a picture on Twitter @ad7db.
Few of the group actually heard the live exchange come back, but I did. I always record the pass, so, after we got the contact, I turned off the radio and played it back for them. It took a couple of plays to convince them, yes, we got the contact. "There he is coming back to us, right... there!"
The next day I visited another group's FD site. I was dismayed to find they'd made lots of satellite contacts, even doing a couple on a final pass before the QRT call. What happened with the "one and done" rule? "7.3.7.1 - Stations are limited to one (1) completed QSO on any single channel FM satellite."
Dave AD7DB
" I was dismayed to find they'd made lots of satellite contacts, even doing a couple on a final pass before the QRT call."
There's nothing wrong with making lots of satellite contacts! The station that won AMSAT Field Day last year made 199 of them last year, in fact.
The one and done rule only applies to FM satellites.
73,
Paul, N8HM
On Mon, Jun 25, 2018 at 11:55 AM, David Bartholomew <[email protected]
wrote:
A club member from W6SD asked me if I could come to their FD site in Granada Hills CA to do the satellite contact for them. I said I would do it. I had planned ahead, figured out a list of the better passes of the FM sats and FO-29. Got set up and tried SO-50. We were fortunate. It was coming in from the south and the footprint didn't reach a lot of land yet. I heard WD9EWK on there and figured, "If anyone can work us through all of this, he can!" And he did. Well done.
I had a small group around me as I did this. N7JY was holding the Elk and his Android tablet, watching the sat path and doing the aiming. I posted a picture on Twitter @ad7db.
Few of the group actually heard the live exchange come back, but I did. I always record the pass, so, after we got the contact, I turned off the radio and played it back for them. It took a couple of plays to convince them, yes, we got the contact. "There he is coming back to us, right... there!"
The next day I visited another group's FD site. I was dismayed to find they'd made lots of satellite contacts, even doing a couple on a final pass before the QRT call. What happened with the "one and done" rule? "7.3.7.1
- Stations are limited to one (1) completed QSO on any single channel FM
satellite."
Dave AD7DB _______________________________________________ Sent via [email protected]. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Hi Dave!
Thanks again for the SO-50 QSO on Saturday morning early in Field Day. Even with a pass starting to the south, with most of the footprint over Mexico and the Pacific at that point, it wasn't an easy QSO to make. Like you, I played my MP3 recording back a couple of times to make sure I copied your information. It was there, and the QSO went in the log.
After I worked you, I worked two other stations that called - Ron W5RKN in Texas, followed by W6KA operated by Tom WA0POD. As I prepare my log for both ARRL and AMSAT, these two QSOs won't go in my score. I will also have some non-scoring QSOs on the western AO-91 pass just over an hour later - I worked KB6LTY very early in that pass, then K6FW and K5RWK (this was the QSO for their 100-point bonus) before that pass simply became unworkable due to the number of high-power signals slamming the satellite. I had exactly one QSO on the AO-85 pass just after 0100 UTC Saturday evening, so I don't have to worry about the 1-QSO rule there.
I have logged multiple QSOs on FM satellites during Field Days in the past, and I don't count them in my score. I list them on the submissions I make to ARRL and AMSAT. In the several years I have done this, I have never seen any objections to this come from either entity. I am choosing to make non-scoring QSOs, instead of - for example - going back to 20m or 40m and making QSOs for points for ARRL Field Day on those bands.
As for the general theme of many messages on here since the end of Field Day, I guess it wouldn't be a Field Day among satellite operators without all the hand-wringing about the situation on the FM satellites. I'm not sure I heard "lots" of QSOs on any of the V/U or U/V FM satellites - I heard some, but heard more CQing, "QRZ", or on one AO-85 pass a station IDing so often it was basically a CQ call without saying CQ. Were there QSOs being made into Saturday night and into Sunday morning? I didn't hear many QSOs on the western AO-92 pass yesterday, just before 1800 UTC, that I heard from home.
I don't think a "net control" style of operation would work for very long on FM satellite passes during Field Day, even if one station was willing to make some non-scoring QSOs in the interest of helping other stations make QSOs for points (or even the 100-point bonus). I'd rather hear that, than hear stations aimlessly calling or transmitting, with no QSOs being made. Unfortunately, so many try satellites for the first time on Field Day weekend, even with helpful articles in advance of the weekend like the one KX9X wrote for QST.
Away from the FM satellites, the SSB satellites were better, but sometimes transponders got overloaded. The best options for me to make QSOs were on the western AO-92 L/V pass on Saturday morning, followed by the NO-84 passes late Saturday afternoon. The first of the NO-84 passes, that went over much of the continental USA, saw only one QSO completed using the 145.825 MHz digipeater. One QSO!!! The later NO-84 pass out west saw WD9EWK and 3 other stations (AI6DO, KB6LTY, KK6OTJ) making QSOs with each other - with room for more activity. Unfortunately, FalconSat-3's passes didn't line up with my time in northern Arizona. I wonder if anyone made QSOs through that digipeater.
73!
Patrick WD9EWK/VA7EWK http://www.wd9ewk.net/ Twitter: @WD9EWK or http://twitter.com/WD9EWK
On Mon, Jun 25, 2018 at 3:55 PM, David Bartholomew [email protected] wrote:
A club member from W6SD asked me if I could come to their FD site in Granada Hills CA to do the satellite contact for them. I said I would do it. I had planned ahead, figured out a list of the better passes of the FM sats and FO-29. Got set up and tried SO-50. We were fortunate. It was coming in from the south and the footprint didn't reach a lot of land yet. I heard WD9EWK on there and figured, "If anyone can work us through all of this, he can!" And he did. Well done.
I had a small group around me as I did this. N7JY was holding the Elk and his Android tablet, watching the sat path and doing the aiming. I posted a picture on Twitter @ad7db.
Few of the group actually heard the live exchange come back, but I did. I always record the pass, so, after we got the contact, I turned off the radio and played it back for them. It took a couple of plays to convince them, yes, we got the contact. "There he is coming back to us, right... there!"
The next day I visited another group's FD site. I was dismayed to find they'd made lots of satellite contacts, even doing a couple on a final pass before the QRT call. What happened with the "one and done" rule? "7.3.7.1
- Stations are limited to one (1) completed QSO on any single channel FM
satellite."
Dave AD7DB
In the AMSAT rules we do state, because someone asked about it, you can be a net control type station and work every station you want. You would only be able to score one contact yourself but had given many out to those trying to make the 100 point satellite bonus.
We still feel by limiting to one FM contact that if you worked someone and both of you leave the bird, two more stations can work each other thereby maximazing the number of possible contacts on the satellite during a single pass.
73...bruce
Sent from my iPhone
On Jun 25, 2018, at 11:37 AM, Patrick STODDARD (WD9EWK/VA7EWK) [email protected] wrote:
Hi Dave!
Thanks again for the SO-50 QSO on Saturday morning early in Field Day. Even with a pass starting to the south, with most of the footprint over Mexico and the Pacific at that point, it wasn't an easy QSO to make. Like you, I played my MP3 recording back a couple of times to make sure I copied your information. It was there, and the QSO went in the log.
After I worked you, I worked two other stations that called - Ron W5RKN in Texas, followed by W6KA operated by Tom WA0POD. As I prepare my log for both ARRL and AMSAT, these two QSOs won't go in my score. I will also have some non-scoring QSOs on the western AO-91 pass just over an hour later - I worked KB6LTY very early in that pass, then K6FW and K5RWK (this was the QSO for their 100-point bonus) before that pass simply became unworkable due to the number of high-power signals slamming the satellite. I had exactly one QSO on the AO-85 pass just after 0100 UTC Saturday evening, so I don't have to worry about the 1-QSO rule there.
I have logged multiple QSOs on FM satellites during Field Days in the past, and I don't count them in my score. I list them on the submissions I make to ARRL and AMSAT. In the several years I have done this, I have never seen any objections to this come from either entity. I am choosing to make non-scoring QSOs, instead of - for example - going back to 20m or 40m and making QSOs for points for ARRL Field Day on those bands.
As for the general theme of many messages on here since the end of Field Day, I guess it wouldn't be a Field Day among satellite operators without all the hand-wringing about the situation on the FM satellites. I'm not sure I heard "lots" of QSOs on any of the V/U or U/V FM satellites - I heard some, but heard more CQing, "QRZ", or on one AO-85 pass a station IDing so often it was basically a CQ call without saying CQ. Were there QSOs being made into Saturday night and into Sunday morning? I didn't hear many QSOs on the western AO-92 pass yesterday, just before 1800 UTC, that I heard from home.
Hi Bruce!
Based on the passes I heard and worked, if there was a station strong enough to get through and complete QSOs, others hoped that station would stick around and make more QSOs. Otherwise, why would anyone call a station just after that station completed a QSO? That was the case for me on the two passes I mentioned - I complete one QSO, then others called me. I could have gone silent and not answered any of them, but I decided to make the non-scoring QSOs, and one of those non-scoring QSOs was the bonus-scoring QSO one club was hoping to make. What I did on the SO-50 and AO-91 passes was, in effect, the "net control" station you mentioned. When I get my Field Day report to you, you will see those non-scoring contacts noted - just as I have done for most of the past few years.
I'm not saying the scoring should change for FM satellites. Short of declaring FM satellites off-limits like ARRL does with the WARC bands and 60m for its Field Day, it seems like the situation won't change. Or have AO-92 in L-band all weekend. :-)
73!
Patrick WD9EWK/VA7EWK http://www.wd9ewk.net/ Twitter: @WD9EWK or http://twitter.com/WD9EWK
On Mon, Jun 25, 2018 at 4:53 PM, Bruce [email protected] wrote:
In the AMSAT rules we do state, because someone asked about it, you can be a net control type station and work every station you want. You would only be able to score one contact yourself but had given many out to those trying to make the 100 point satellite bonus.
We still feel by limiting to one FM contact that if you worked someone and both of you leave the bird, two more stations can work each other thereby maximazing the number of possible contacts on the satellite during a single pass.
73...bruce
The first AO91 pass after start time on saturday, I just listened to N5AT (op KG5CCI) doing an awesome job as what you have called the "net control" station. I have a feeling half the people on the pass wouldn't have made a qso at all if it hadn't been for Dave calling them amid all the "CQ field day" and callsign-dropping, keying down, and aprs packets (why? Who knows lol). And Dave was operating the same as I did this weekend, a handheld antenna and manually tuned rig.
I have mixed feelings about the one-Q FM sat rule - it makes sense in a way, but in my experience one competent, experienced op (keyword there is competent..) on the FM sats can make a lot of FM-only HT ops very very happy, scoring them their 100 point bonus they promised for their clubs! I guess the rule does (hopefully) prevent the uber-stations from tying up the pass working each other to pad scores, but it doesn't do anything about the massive QRM that always seems to happen on FM. I'm glad to hear a few guys on there who are worried less about their own scores, and more about handing out contacts to those that really need them on Field Day.
I pretty much just hung out on linears this year, operating for about an hour and a half total on sats while waiting for 6m to open.It was a lot of fun, and by and large I thought most everyone I heard was doing a great job. There was only a few stations that never seemed to hear when they were called. Overall, good job to all the amsat ops, and I'm looking forward to next year!
73,
- Matthew nj4y
On Mon, Jun 25, 2018 at 1:05 PM, Patrick STODDARD (WD9EWK/VA7EWK) [email protected] wrote:
Hi Bruce!
Based on the passes I heard and worked, if there was a station strong enough to get through and complete QSOs, others hoped that station would stick around and make more QSOs. Otherwise, why would anyone call a station just after that station completed a QSO? That was the case for me on the two passes I mentioned - I complete one QSO, then others called me. I could have gone silent and not answered any of them, but I decided to make the non-scoring QSOs, and one of those non-scoring QSOs was the bonus-scoring QSO one club was hoping to make. What I did on the SO-50 and AO-91 passes was, in effect, the "net control" station you mentioned. When I get my Field Day report to you, you will see those non-scoring contacts noted - just as I have done for most of the past few years.
I'm not saying the scoring should change for FM satellites. Short of declaring FM satellites off-limits like ARRL does with the WARC bands and 60m for its Field Day, it seems like the situation won't change. Or have AO-92 in L-band all weekend. :-)
73!
Patrick WD9EWK/VA7EWK http://www.wd9ewk.net/ Twitter: @WD9EWK or http://twitter.com/WD9EWK
On Mon, Jun 25, 2018 at 4:53 PM, Bruce [email protected] wrote:
In the AMSAT rules we do state, because someone asked about it, you can be a net control type station and work every station you want. You would only be able to score one contact yourself but had given many out to those trying to make the 100 point satellite bonus.
We still feel by limiting to one FM contact that if you worked someone and both of you leave the bird, two more stations can work each other thereby maximazing the number of possible contacts on the satellite during a single pass.
73...bruce
Sent via [email protected]. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
The first AO91 pass after start time on saturday, I just listened to N5AT (op KG5CCI) doing an awesome job as what you have called the "net control" station. I have a feeling half the people on the pass wouldn't have made a qso at all if it hadn't been for Dave calling them amid all the "CQ field day" and callsign-dropping, keying down, and aprs packets (why? Who knows lol). And Dave was operating the same as I did this weekend, a handheld antenna and manually tuned rig.
I have mixed feelings about the one-Q FM sat rule - it makes sense in a way, but in my experience one competent, experienced op (keyword there is competent..) on the FM sats can make a lot of FM-only HT ops very very happy, scoring them their 100 point bonus they promised for their clubs! I guess the rule does (hopefully) prevent the uber-stations from tying up the pass working each other to pad scores, but it doesn't do anything about the massive QRM that always seems to happen on FM. I'm glad to hear a few guys on there who are worried less about their own scores, and more about handing out contacts to those that really need them on Field Day.
I pretty much just hung out on linears this year, operating for about an hour and a half total on sats while waiting for 6m to open.It was a lot of fun, and by and large I thought most everyone I heard was doing a great job. There was only a few stations that never seemed to hear when they were called. Overall, good job to all the amsat ops, and I'm looking forward to next year!
73,
- Matthew nj4y
On Mon, Jun 25, 2018 at 1:05 PM, Patrick STODDARD (WD9EWK/VA7EWK) [email protected] wrote:
Hi Bruce!
Based on the passes I heard and worked, if there was a station strong enough to get through and complete QSOs, others hoped that station would stick around and make more QSOs. Otherwise, why would anyone call a station just after that station completed a QSO? That was the case for me on the two passes I mentioned - I complete one QSO, then others called me. I could have gone silent and not answered any of them, but I decided to make the non-scoring QSOs, and one of those non-scoring QSOs was the bonus-scoring QSO one club was hoping to make. What I did on the SO-50 and AO-91 passes was, in effect, the "net control" station you mentioned. When I get my Field Day report to you, you will see those non-scoring contacts noted - just as I have done for most of the past few years.
I'm not saying the scoring should change for FM satellites. Short of declaring FM satellites off-limits like ARRL does with the WARC bands and 60m for its Field Day, it seems like the situation won't change. Or have AO-92 in L-band all weekend. :-)
73!
Patrick WD9EWK/VA7EWK http://www.wd9ewk.net/ Twitter: @WD9EWK or http://twitter.com/WD9EWK
On Mon, Jun 25, 2018 at 4:53 PM, Bruce [email protected] wrote:
In the AMSAT rules we do state, because someone asked about it, you can be a net control type station and work every station you want. You would only be able to score one contact yourself but had given many out to those trying to make the 100 point satellite bonus.
We still feel by limiting to one FM contact that if you worked someone and both of you leave the bird, two more stations can work each other thereby maximazing the number of possible contacts on the satellite during a single pass.
73...bruce
Sent via [email protected]. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
A net control type op is perfectly acceptable. Only thing is they can only score 1 FM contact per FM satellite. If they wish to work every SO-50 pass and work every station, they can do it. What ever works. It is easier to have an ht and Arrow on field day rather than an all mode radio. That is why the FM sats are so busy. The rules are there to try and get more to operate SSB/CW instead of FM.
73...bruce
Sent from my iPhone
On Jun 25, 2018, at 3:23 PM, Matthew Stevens [email protected] wrote:
The first AO91 pass after start time on saturday, I just listened to N5AT (op KG5CCI) doing an awesome job as what you have called the "net control" station. I have a feeling half the people on the pass wouldn't have made a qso at all if it hadn't been for Dave calling them amid all the "CQ field day" and callsign-dropping, keying down, and aprs packets (why? Who knows lol). And Dave was operating the same as I did this weekend, a handheld antenna and manually tuned rig.
I have mixed feelings about the one-Q FM sat rule - it makes sense in a way, but in my experience one competent, experienced op (keyword there is competent..) on the FM sats can make a lot of FM-only HT ops very very happy, scoring them their 100 point bonus they promised for their clubs! I guess the rule does (hopefully) prevent the uber-stations from tying up the pass working each other to pad scores, but it doesn't do anything about the massive QRM that always seems to happen on FM. I'm glad to hear a few guys on there who are worried less about their own scores, and more about handing out contacts to those that really need them on Field Day.
I pretty much just hung out on linears this year, operating for about an hour and a half total on sats while waiting for 6m to open.It was a lot of fun, and by and large I thought most everyone I heard was doing a great job. There was only a few stations that never seemed to hear when they were called. Overall, good job to all the amsat ops, and I'm looking forward to next year!
73,
- Matthew nj4y
On Mon, Jun 25, 2018 at 1:05 PM, Patrick STODDARD (WD9EWK/VA7EWK) [email protected] wrote:
Hi Bruce!
Based on the passes I heard and worked, if there was a station strong enough to get through and complete QSOs, others hoped that station would stick around and make more QSOs. Otherwise, why would anyone call a station just after that station completed a QSO? That was the
So since I was mentioned, and it sure feels like people are whining about me, I feel I better speak up. Believe or not, there was a method to my madness. Yes, I was operating as N5AT and yes I made more than 1 contact on an FM bird. Stay with me here..
I originally did not plan to operate field day. Since getting my 488 last year there's really nothing left for me to chase, I still rove - but besides that I don't get on the birds much these days. Being the local 'Satellite Guy' though, multiple clubs had asked me to come operate for them this FD, but only 1 actually wanted something other than their 100 points. The ARES club here in central Arkansas had a plan to bring in a large number of kids and public officials, and they wanted me to perform a demonstration of Satellite capabilities rather than just pad their score for them. This seemed like a noble cause, so I decided to give them a hand.
I made plans to operate 1 FM pass and 1 linear pass, just to show the folks how they are different, when the crowd was going to be there around 1900z. AO91 was up first, and I did indeed make 3 contacts on the first AO-91 pass at 1845z. I was on a tall hill with a great view to the south, and the pass was ascending. The first station I heard about 10 seconds after AOS that seemed to have a clue was W5RRR - I called them, got the QSL, got the 100 points, and a decent sized (1, 2, 300 or so people) crowd of hams, 4-H kids, and Boy Scouts all cheered. Only a few had ever seen a satellite contact, and everyone was very happy. Immediately afterwards I got a called by a bunch of other stations, I ignored them - then I heard TI2CDA call me. Charlie is an all around good guy and a rare DX to hear on the Satellites, and I believe he's also an FM only op. I also knew he would be approaching LOS and was probably calling me to get HIS bonus, so I went ahead and answered him. That group of people that were excited about making a single contact on the birds? Now they just saw me make a DX contact. They were ecstatic. After wrapping up with Charlie, YS1MS called me. I took the same approach with Jose - I knew he was approaching the end of his window, and he might be hunting for his bonus, and he was FM only. I went ahead and answered him too. Other US stations kept calling me, but I ignored them all, they still had plenty of time to make contacts, and I was already getting peppered with hoots, hollers and questions from the audience.
After the chaos of AO-91, I prepped to get ready for CAS-4B at 1929z. This time, I pulled out the stops. I tuned up quickly at AOS, and started calling CQ with all the watts, smack dab in the middle of the passband. There were stations all around me, but none of them were hearing each other.. as opposed to them, I could actually hear. I worked KB6LTY quickly, followed by WD9EWK, and then just kept following the bird east. 12 minutes later I lost the bird behind some buildings after working a VE2. 14 total stations logged, California to Quebec, in 1 pass. The crowd went nuts. I spent the next 2 hours showing local hams how to improve their arrows by using things like good coax, and a couple of the kids mentioned how sitting around with headphones turning dials was boring, but working satellites looked like fun. After that I packed up my stuff and headed back home, and didn't make another contact til after 1800z on Sunday.
If anyone has an issue with me making more than 1 contact on an FM bird, they can get bent. I'm perfectly aware of the rules, and I didn't have the N5AT loggers claim 'extra credit' for my 2 extra QSOs. What I did do though is use the long lost art of situational awareness to further the community goals and impress on some kids how fun satellites can be. I calculated 85 passes between 1800 on Saturday and 1800 on Sunday. If my (or ANY operator's) 2 minutes of air time answering some DX caused you to miss out on your 100 points, then maybe you should try practicing, using better gear, and just generally not sucking before whining on the bulletin board.
-Dave, KG5CCI
Several points:
1. Field Day is not a contest, it is an activity.
2. In reference to point 1, logs are not scored or checked by the ARRL, so rules such as only one QSO per FM bird don’t work except for the people who only make one FM QSO per bird. The rule can’t work because it isn’t enforced.
3. Making more than a single FM QSO per bird but not including them in your scoring does little to help with the mess on the FM birds during Field Day. One is still violating the rule and adding to the chaos, perhaps with good intentions, but still...
4. The linear satellites are a much more efficient use of satellite resources than the FM birds. Field Day is no exception to this rule, but, due to the concentration of activity the problem is exaggerated. We should expend some great effort during the rest of the year to get people to use the linear birds and to move from FM to linear sats. Those of us proficient on the linear birds should avoid the FM birds during FD and encourage others to do the same. “Here, let me show you how to make straight forward QSOes without all this mess.”
5. Yes, I realize that perhaps the FM birds utilize the user resources more effectively, at least during under utilized or only slightly over utilized conditions, offering people with simple rigs to get on the sats, but I think it important in the long run to encourage people to move off the FM birds to the linear birds. I understand the economic arguments against this, but, especially on Field Day, the reasons to favor linear sats over the FM birds is very clear, and the rest of the year is the same, but perhaps with less intense examples.
6. What happens on the FM birds is an example of “The Tragedy of the Commons”, a scientific, economic, and sociological principle about what happens to shared resources.
Every Field Day satellite operator should read the following before operating the FM birds on Field Day:
< https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons >
< https://archive.org/details/twolecturesonch00lloygoog >
< http://science.sciencemag.org/content/sci/162/3859/1243.full.pdf >
You should probably have learned this in college, but I have heard that this concept is falling out of favor and not being taught with as much fervor as it once was.
7. There isn’t anything in the solution to the Field Day FM satellite situation that we didn’t learn from our families, in pre-school, kindergarten, Sunday school, Saturday school, catechism, or interacting with our neighbors, both as kids and adults. If your mother was a ham, what would she say about your behavior on the FM birds? Yes, my mom was a ham, albeit briefly.
8. If you know someone who made more than one QSO per FM satellite, you might want to gently remind them that their doin so takes away the ability of others to use the satellite and accomplishes nothing tangible for them. Peer interaction is a good way to deal with this problem.
These comments are intended to be general and not target any individual. I am responding to the ongoing discussion on the AMSAT BB, which inspired these comments, so it may seem like I am criticizing particular individuals, some who have contributed to this discussion, but I am not. Those who have written have inspired my thoughts on this topic and I understand almost all of the arguments made. I sympathize with many of them, but that won’t solve the problem.
Operate responsibly and share the resources wisely. Listen for the weak ones. - Duffey KK6MC
James Duffey KK6MC Cedar Crest NM
"You should probably have learned this in college"
James, why do you feel compelled to lecture the users as if they were freshmen at the local junior college?
Your dissertation is not needed nor appreciated as to your tone. Many users of this group have not attended college and that does not make them any less worthy of your egghead wisdom.
73, Ted K7TRK
-----Original Message----- From: AMSAT-BB [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of JamesDuffey Sent: Monday, June 25, 2018 4:28 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Field Day (whew)
Several points:
1. Field Day is not a contest, it is an activity.
2. In reference to point 1, logs are not scored or checked by the ARRL, so rules such as only one QSO per FM bird don’t work except for the people who only make one FM QSO per bird. The rule can’t work because it isn’t enforced.
3. Making more than a single FM QSO per bird but not including them in your scoring does little to help with the mess on the FM birds during Field Day. One is still violating the rule and adding to the chaos, perhaps with good intentions, but still...
4. The linear satellites are a much more efficient use of satellite resources than the FM birds. Field Day is no exception to this rule, but, due to the concentration of activity the problem is exaggerated. We should expend some great effort during the rest of the year to get people to use the linear birds and to move from FM to linear sats. Those of us proficient on the linear birds should avoid the FM birds during FD and encourage others to do the same. “Here, let me show you how to make straight forward QSOes without all this mess.”
5. Yes, I realize that perhaps the FM birds utilize the user resources more effectively, at least during under utilized or only slightly over utilized conditions, offering people with simple rigs to get on the sats, but I think it important in the long run to encourage people to move off the FM birds to the linear birds. I understand the economic arguments against this, but, especially on Field Day, the reasons to favor linear sats over the FM birds is very clear, and the rest of the year is the same, but perhaps with less intense examples.
6. What happens on the FM birds is an example of “The Tragedy of the Commons”, a scientific, economic, and sociological principle about what happens to shared resources.
Every Field Day satellite operator should read the following before operating the FM birds on Field Day:
< https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons >
< https://archive.org/details/twolecturesonch00lloygoog >
< http://science.sciencemag.org/content/sci/162/3859/1243.full.pdf >
You should probably have learned this in college, but I have heard that this concept is falling out of favor and not being taught with as much fervor as it once was.
7. There isn’t anything in the solution to the Field Day FM satellite situation that we didn’t learn from our families, in pre-school, kindergarten, Sunday school, Saturday school, catechism, or interacting with our neighbors, both as kids and adults. If your mother was a ham, what would she say about your behavior on the FM birds? Yes, my mom was a ham, albeit briefly.
8. If you know someone who made more than one QSO per FM satellite, you might want to gently remind them that their doin so takes away the ability of others to use the satellite and accomplishes nothing tangible for them. Peer interaction is a good way to deal with this problem.
These comments are intended to be general and not target any individual. I am responding to the ongoing discussion on the AMSAT BB, which inspired these comments, so it may seem like I am criticizing particular individuals, some who have contributed to this discussion, but I am not. Those who have written have inspired my thoughts on this topic and I understand almost all of the arguments made. I sympathize with many of them, but that won’t solve the problem.
Operate responsibly and share the resources wisely. Listen for the weak ones. - Duffey KK6MC
James Duffey KK6MC Cedar Crest NM
_______________________________________________ Sent via [email protected]. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Ted - I apologize to you and others on the BB I have offendewith my tone. That was not my intent. Thank you for pointing it out. It detracted from my message and I regret that almost as much as offending you. I will better edit my posts in the future. Thanks - Duffey KK6MC
James Duffey KK6MC Cedar Crest NM
On Jun 25, 2018, at 17:36, Ted Krempa [email protected] wrote:
"You should probably have learned this in college"
James, why do you feel compelled to lecture the users as if they were freshmen at the local junior college?
Your dissertation is not needed nor appreciated as to your tone. Many users of this group have not attended college and that does not makes them any less worthy of your egghead wisdom.
73, Ted K7TRK
-----Original Message----- From: AMSAT-BB [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of JamesDuffey Sent: Monday, June 25, 2018 4:28 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Field Day (whew)
Several points:
Field Day is not a contest, it is an activity.
In reference to point 1, logs are not scored or checked by the ARRL, so rules such as only one QSO per FM bird don’t work except for the people who only make one FM QSO per bird. The rule can’t work because it isn’t enforced.
Making more than a single FM QSO per bird but not including them in your scoring does little to help with the mess on the FM birds during Field Day. One is still violating the rule and adding to the chaos, perhaps with good intentions, but still...
The linear satellites are a much more efficient use of satellite resources than the FM birds. Field Day is no exception to this rule, but, due to the concentration of activity the problem is exaggerated. We should expend some great effort during the rest of the year to get people to use the linear birds and to move from FM to linear sats. Those of us proficient on the linear birds should avoid the FM birds during FD and encourage others to do the same. “Here, let me show you how to make straight forward QSOes without all this mess.”
Yes, I realize that perhaps the FM birds utilize the user resources more effectively, at least during under utilized or only slightly over utilized conditions, offering people with simple rigs to get on the sats, but I think it important in the long run to encourage people to move off the FM birds to the linear birds. I understand the economic arguments against this, but, especially on Field Day, the reasons to favor linear sats over the FM birds is very clear, and the rest of the year is the same, but perhaps with less intense examples.
What happens on the FM birds is an example of “The Tragedy of the Commons”, a scientific, economic, and sociological principle about what happens to shared resources.
Every Field Day satellite operator should read the following before operating the FM birds on Field Day:
< https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons >
< https://archive.org/details/twolecturesonch00lloygoog >
< http://science.sciencemag.org/content/sci/162/3859/1243.full.pdf >
You should probably have learned this in college, but I have heard that this concept is falling out of favor and not being taught with as much fervor as it once was.
There isn’t anything in the solution to the Field Day FM satellite situation that we didn’t learn from our families, in pre-school, kindergarten, Sunday school, Saturday school, catechism, or interacting with our neighbors, both as kids and adults. If your mother was a ham, what would she say about your behavior on the FM birds? Yes, my mom was a ham, albeit briefly.
If you know someone who made more than one QSO per FM satellite, you might want to gently remind them that their doin so takes away the ability of others to use the satellite and accomplishes nothing tangible for them. Peer interaction is a good way to deal with this problem.
These comments are intended to be general and not target any individual. I am responding to the ongoing discussion on the AMSAT BB, which inspired these comments, so it may seem like I am criticizing particular individuals, some who have contributed to this discussion, but I am not. Those who have written have inspired my thoughts on this topic and I understand almost all of the arguments made. I sympathize with many of them, but that won’t solve the problem.
Operate responsibly and share the resources wisely. Listen for the weak ones. - Duffey KK6MC
James Duffey KK6MC Cedar Crest NM
Sent via [email protected]. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
A couple of questions and observations sparked by your message. Note that I have not yet participated in a Field Day, so I have no pony in this race.
- Field Day is not a contest, it is an activity.
I think this statement right here is the crux of much of the disagreement. While what you have stated is true in the grand spirit of the vision of Field Day, the ARRL has also (as we all now) put out scoring rules for FD QSOs and activities. So FD is *both* an outreach activity *and* a contest, all at once. Most of the concerns raised only address one or the other.
- In reference to point 1, logs are not scored or checked by the ARRL, so
rules such as only one QSO per FM bird don’t work except for the people who only make one FM QSO per bird. The rule can’t work because it isn’t enforced.
I don't see it as being a set of behavioral rules, but of *scoring* rules, and as such are enforced by peers. They work very well *for their intended purpose* (which I agree is not to keep the satellites from getting jammed up) and no other. In fact, as one of my colleagues in the IT world often says, "There are seldom technological solutions to behavioral problems."
- Making more than a single FM QSO per bird but not including them in your
scoring does little to help with the mess on the FM birds during Field Day. One is still violating the rule and adding to the chaos, perhaps with good intentions, but still...
If you're not scoring a second or third FM QSO, then technically, are you in violation of the rule? Especially where there are good reasons to make those additional QSOs, as previous posters have shared -- helping others make their single scorable FM QSO, etc. -- which are in the spirit of FD as the outreach activity. This is not to endorse camping on the sat from AOS to LOS, of course, but I believe there is room here for *good operators and operational procedure* to meet in the grey area between FD the contest and FD the activity.
-- Devin L. Ganger (WA7DLG) email: [email protected] web: Devin on Earth cell: +1 425.239.2575
I've suggested in the past we move the FM sats to either a net control format (as others have suggested) or perhaps a bonus for copying a satellite bonus message from w1aw or its relays... To emphasize receiving more than transmitting.
Just my thoughts.
73, Joe kk0sd
-----Original Message----- From: AMSAT-BB [email protected] On Behalf Of Devin L. Ganger Sent: Monday, June 25, 2018 6:57 PM To: JamesDuffey [email protected]; [email protected] Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Field Day (whew)
A couple of questions and observations sparked by your message. Note that I have not yet participated in a Field Day, so I have no pony in this race.
- Field Day is not a contest, it is an activity.
I think this statement right here is the crux of much of the disagreement. While what you have stated is true in the grand spirit of the vision of Field Day, the ARRL has also (as we all now) put out scoring rules for FD QSOs and activities. So FD is *both* an outreach activity *and* a contest, all at once. Most of the concerns raised only address one or the other.
- In reference to point 1, logs are not scored or checked by the
ARRL, so rules such as only one QSO per FM bird don’t work except for the people who only make one FM QSO per bird. The rule can’t work because it isn’t enforced.
I don't see it as being a set of behavioral rules, but of *scoring* rules, and as such are enforced by peers. They work very well *for their intended purpose* (which I agree is not to keep the satellites from getting jammed up) and no other. In fact, as one of my colleagues in the IT world often says, "There are seldom technological solutions to behavioral problems."
- Making more than a single FM QSO per bird but not including them in
your scoring does little to help with the mess on the FM birds during Field Day. One is still violating the rule and adding to the chaos, perhaps with good intentions, but still...
If you're not scoring a second or third FM QSO, then technically, are you in violation of the rule? Especially where there are good reasons to make those additional QSOs, as previous posters have shared -- helping others make their single scorable FM QSO, etc. -- which are in the spirit of FD as the outreach activity. This is not to endorse camping on the sat from AOS to LOS, of course, but I believe there is room here for *good operators and operational procedure* to meet in the grey area between FD the contest and FD the activity.
-- Devin L. Ganger (WA7DLG) email: [email protected] web: Devin on Earth cell: +1 425.239.2575 _______________________________________________ Sent via [email protected]. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
To have an AMSAT rule that directly conflicts with the ARRL one-and-done rule is ridiculous.
George, KA3HSW
-----Original Message----- From: AMSAT-BB [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Bruce Sent: Monday, June 25, 2018 11:53 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Field Day (whew)
In the AMSAT rules we do state, because someone asked about it, you can be a net control type station and work every station you want. You would only be able to score one contact yourself but had given many out to those trying to make the 100 point satellite bonus.
We still feel by limiting to one FM contact that if you worked someone and both of you leave the bird, two more stations can work each other thereby maximazing the number of possible contacts on the satellite during a single pass.
73...bruce
Neither rule prevents you from making more than one FM contact. Both rules just prohibit you from SCORING more than one FM contact.
73
- Matthew nj4y
On Wed, Jun 27, 2018 at 12:21 AM, George Henry [email protected] wrote:
To have an AMSAT rule that directly conflicts with the ARRL one-and-done rule is ridiculous.
George, KA3HSW
-----Original Message----- From: AMSAT-BB [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Bruce Sent: Monday, June 25, 2018 11:53 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Field Day (whew)
In the AMSAT rules we do state, because someone asked about it, you can be a net control type station and work every station you want. You would only be able to score one contact yourself but had given many out to those trying to make the 100 point satellite bonus.
We still feel by limiting to one FM contact that if you worked someone and both of you leave the bird, two more stations can work each other thereby maximazing the number of possible contacts on the satellite during a single pass.
73...bruce
Sent via [email protected]. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
To me this rule:
“7.3.7.1 Stations are limited to one (1) completed QSO on any single channel FM satellite.”
Precludes stations from making more than one QSO on a FM bird.
I suppose that this is subject to interpretation, but to me that the intent of the rule is to make the FM satellites available to more people by rationing QSOes to one per bird. Making more than a single QSO and not scoring them or not entering them into the log does not make the satellite available to more operators and seems to fly in the face of the rule. I understand why people do it, and under some circumstances it may be a good idea, but to me it is against the rule.
Of course someone could ask the ARRL Contest Manager if this practice is OK, but remember the old adage of not asking questions you don’t really want to know the answer to. - Duffey KK6MC
James Duffey KK6MC Cedar Crest NM
On Jun 27, 2018, at 05:26, Matthew Stevens [email protected] wrote:
Neither rule prevents you from making more than one FM contact. Both rules just prohibit you from SCORING more than one FM contact.
73
- Matthew nj4y
On Wed, Jun 27, 2018 at 12:21 AM, George Henry [email protected] wrote: To have an AMSAT rule that directly conflicts with the ARRL one-and-done rule is ridiculous.
George, KA3HSW
-----Original Message----- From: AMSAT-BB [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Bruce Sent: Monday, June 25, 2018 11:53 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Field Day (whew)
In the AMSAT rules we do state, because someone asked about it, you can be a net control type station and work every station you want. You would only be able to score one contact yourself but had given many out to those trying to make the 100 point satellite bonus.
We still feel by limiting to one FM contact that if you worked someone and both of you leave the bird, two more stations can work each other thereby maximazing the number of possible contacts on the satellite during a single pass.
73...bruce
Sent via [email protected]. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via [email protected]. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Agreed, that's the stated intent of the rule from both AMSAT and the ARRL. And yeah, generally I think it's better to hop off the FM sats, not tying it up and preventing other people from getting their QSO. But, as I have done several times, I normally just monitor the FM passes. If I hear a lot of callsign dropping, CQing, and carriers for a decent amount of time during the pass, I'll start calling some of them - especially the weak ones who seem to be likely using an HT to get their bonus points. If I hear others start actually making contacts instead of blind calling, then I back off and go back to monitoring. Is that preventing others from using the sat, and keeping them from making qsos? I don't think so. Does that comply with the spirit of the rule, which is to allow more people to make qsos on FM? I think it does. I know of at least two people from FD 2017 who would not have gotten their sat bonus if I hadn't done just that.
I would say, just use your judgement. If you're in a position with a decent enough station and experience to actually operate like I've described (and heard others do this weekend), then you probably aren't one of the ops that the rule is intended to address.
Rules aren't going to keep people from doing dumb things. I think the best way to address the alleged "problem" of FM sats on field day is not to add more rules, but to spread some operating skill and knowledge like Sean (Kx9x) did in his QST article for June. There's no substitute for practice and experience. And once you've got both, you can make the call yourself on what to do during any given pass, field day or not.
73
- Matthew nj4y
On Wed, Jun 27, 2018 at 9:49 AM, JamesDuffey [email protected] wrote:
To me this rule:
“7.3.7.1 Stations are limited to one (1) completed QSO on any single channel FM satellite.”
Precludes stations from making more than one QSO on a FM bird.
I suppose that this is subject to interpretation, but to me that the intent of the rule is to make the FM satellites available to more people by rationing QSOes to one per bird. Making more than a single QSO and not scoring them or not entering them into the log does not make the satellite available to more operators and seems to fly in the face of the rule. I understand why people do it, and under some circumstances it may be a good idea, but to me it is against the rule.
Of course someone could ask the ARRL Contest Manager if this practice is OK, but remember the old adage of not asking questions you don’t really want to know the answer to. - Duffey KK6MC
James Duffey KK6MC Cedar Crest NM
On Jun 27, 2018, at 05:26, Matthew Stevens [email protected] wrote:
Neither rule prevents you from making more than one FM contact. Both rules just prohibit you from SCORING more than one FM contact.
73
- Matthew nj4y
On Wed, Jun 27, 2018 at 12:21 AM, George Henry [email protected] wrote: To have an AMSAT rule that directly conflicts with the ARRL one-and-done rule is ridiculous.
George, KA3HSW
-----Original Message----- From: AMSAT-BB [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Bruce Sent: Monday, June 25, 2018 11:53 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Field Day (whew)
In the AMSAT rules we do state, because someone asked about it, you can be a net control type station and work every station you want. You would only be able to score one contact yourself but had given many out to those trying to make the 100 point satellite bonus.
We still feel by limiting to one FM contact that if you worked someone and both of you leave the bird, two more stations can work each other thereby maximazing the number of possible contacts on the satellite during a single pass.
73...bruce
Sent via [email protected]. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via [email protected]. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
7.3.7.1 is a clarification of 7.3.7 which is about *scoring*.
-- Devin L. Ganger (WA7DLG) email: [email protected] web: Devin on Earth cell: +1 425.239.2575
-----Original Message----- From: AMSAT-BB [email protected] On Behalf Of JamesDuffey Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2018 6:50 AM To: Matthew Stevens [email protected] Cc: amsat-bb [email protected]; Bruce [email protected] Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Field Day (whew)
To me this rule:
“7.3.7.1 Stations are limited to one (1) completed QSO on any single channel FM satellite.”
Precludes stations from making more than one QSO on a FM bird.
I suppose that this is subject to interpretation, but to me that the intent of the rule is to make the FM satellites available to more people by rationing QSOes to one per bird. Making more than a single QSO and not scoring them or not entering them into the log does not make the satellite available to more operators and seems to fly in the face of the rule. I understand why people do it, and under some circumstances it may be a good idea, but to me it is against the rule.
Of course someone could ask the ARRL Contest Manager if this practice is OK, but remember the old adage of not asking questions you don’t really want to know the answer to. - Duffey KK6MC
James Duffey KK6MC Cedar Crest NM
On Jun 27, 2018, at 05:26, Matthew Stevens [email protected]
wrote:
Neither rule prevents you from making more than one FM contact. Both rules just prohibit you from SCORING more than one FM contact.
73
- Matthew nj4y
On Wed, Jun 27, 2018 at 12:21 AM, George Henry [email protected]
wrote:
To have an AMSAT rule that directly conflicts with the ARRL one-and-done rule is ridiculous.
George, KA3HSW
-----Original Message----- From: AMSAT-BB [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of
Bruce
Sent: Monday, June 25, 2018 11:53 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Field Day (whew)
In the AMSAT rules we do state, because someone asked about it, you can be a net control type station and work every station you want. You would only be able to score one contact yourself but had given many out to those trying to make the 100 point satellite bonus.
We still feel by limiting to one FM contact that if you worked someone and both of you leave the bird, two more stations can work each other thereby maximazing the number of possible contacts on the satellite during a single pass.
73...bruce
Sent via [email protected]. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum
available
to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the
official views of AMSAT-NA.
Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
program!
Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via [email protected]. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum
available
to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the
official views of AMSAT-NA.
Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
program!
Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via [email protected]. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
participants (11)
-
Bruce -
David Bartholomew -
David Swanson -
Devin L. Ganger -
Gary -
George Henry -
JamesDuffey -
Matthew Stevens -
Patrick STODDARD (WD9EWK/VA7EWK) -
Paul Stoetzer -
Ted Krempa