Thanks for the answers and comments, SSB satellites are a good solution when you invited someone to give a new grid, I did it (LU6QI), but sometimes in FM SAts appears a good o missed grid I you can´t get it because same stations, every orbit, are saying hello all day passes....

Well, my contribution is not be like that stations to avoid increase this problem... just was my opinion, not a rule to apply in SATs.

Hope to be soon in DK78.... interested ?????

Omar XE1AO DK89df

******************************** M.C. Omar Alvarez Cárdenas Facultad de Telematica, U de C 316 1075 xe1aom@ucol.mx omar_ac@hotmail.com ********************************

On Sun, 2011-10-02 at 04:31 +0200, i8cvs wrote:

----- Original Message ----- From: "Omar Alvarez" xe1aom@yahoo.com To: AMSAT-BB@amsat.org Sent: Sunday, October 02, 2011 12:25 AM Subject: [amsat-bb] AO-51 pass at 22:06 UTC 2011-10-01

What a shame this pass, just a few QSOs can be finished because all calling others without give a chance the complete the current QSO. What we need to fix that?....

I will wait for a better pass.

Have a nice weekend.

Omar XE1AO DK89df

Hi Omar, XE1AO

You only need satellites with linear transponders.

73" de

i8CVS Domenico

If you pair that with good operating practice like giving call signs so that they're understandable and checking for available frequency first you may have a winner ;).

73 Mike K5TRI

On Sun, 2011-10-02 at 05:52 -0700, Jeffrey Koehler wrote:

It amazes me that people to this day still call, "CQ satellite CQ satellite" and having it be so obvious that they cannot hear the downlink.

Unbelievable.

Not necessarily unbelievable but aren't there many folks out there who work FM sats with a single HT and simply rely on the set frequencies? I personally would never want to work like that but, that's just me :).

73 Mike

Clayton,

On Sun, 2011-10-02 at 08:56 -0500, Clayton Coleman W5PFG wrote:

If operators would not treat working a rare grid as if the world is coming to an end immediately after the pass, I believe rover stations would have a much more pleasant time handing out new grids.

If you miss that desired grid today, doesn’t that leave opportunity for you to work it on another day?

You totally miss the point here. This is MY satellite and if I want to work YOU on that pass I will do WHATEVER it takes. I usually run 100W up to AO-51 anyways to make sure everybody hears ME! If that's not sufficient, ok .. let's bring the 1KW brick. No problem. The world is ending, we all know that already so I need to make sure that I get all the grids right now and here. The time YOU spent typing this email you could've already gotten in your friggin car and driven out to a new one for ME to work you. Clayton, Clayton .. we have to work on this slacker attitude of yours. Tsts ...

Just my $23

73 Mike K5TRI

p.s.: For the ironically challenged, this was irony. I don't run 1KW up to any satellite as everybody knows it's not enough.

p.p.s.: Ups, I did it again :)

I know that everyone that has roved has had a similar problem. Here is the way I used to handle the problem.

First, when the satellite came up, I would listen for all the stations I could hear and write them down.

Then I would put my call out there with the grid, those that wanted me, knew I was in a rare grid.

Anyone that called me back, I put a check mark next to their call When they stopped calling, I would say, "xy1xy, ve1a, ke5a, le5a, i have you, any others" Then I would listen and write down all that I heard call me and go back with the next list of those I had heard.

Obviously, this is a modified form of a two-way QSO because for a QSO to take place you must hear them and they must hear you. Since I wrote down their calls and gave it back and they called me and said they wanted a contact, we had a two-way. Just not a two-way by itself, it was interrupted by many others.

I found this method to be the most efficient way to give out a rare grid square to the most without spending a lot of time. And, if after giving out the list the first time of who you heard, you have not heard your original friend, I would call him then. All those that you acknowledged will now be silent because they know they are in the log.

Sometimes we have to modify things for the situation.

73...bruce

________________________________ From: Clayton Coleman W5PFG kayakfishtx@gmail.com To: "AMSAT-BB@amsat.org" AMSAT-BB@amsat.org Sent: Sun, October 2, 2011 8:56:54 AM Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: AO-51 pass at 22:06 UTC 2011-10-01

Since I am relatively “green” myself to FM satellite rover operation, I will share an observation from a recent grid expedition in West Texas. I’ve observed a behavior that I refer to as “Armageddon grid.” This means the rover operator is activating a grid for the last time before the world meets a fiery demise and doesn't know it until he gives his call and grid square.

This is an overview of an Armageddon grid activation:

1. Rover station calls one of his friends or scheduled contact.

2. Up to five stations immediately call the rover station in rapid procession, not allowing a millisecond between calls for anyone to answer. Never mind the opportunity of the rover’s original station called establishing contact.

3. At this point, the rover station tries to complete his original call (if/when the dust settles.)

4. Typically what occurs is step 2-3 wind up in a loop for a period of 2-3 minutes thus effectively reducing the usable time for other stations to make contact on the pass by one-third or more.

If operators would not treat working a rare grid as if the world is coming to an end immediately after the pass, I believe rover stations would have a much more pleasant time handing out new grids.

If you miss that desired grid today, doesn’t that leave opportunity for you to work it on another day?

73 Clayton W5PFG

On Sat, Oct 1, 2011 at 5:25 PM, Omar Alvarez xe1aom@yahoo.com wrote:

What a shame this pass, just a few QSOs can be finished because all calling others without give a chance the complete the current QSO. What we need to fix that?....

I will wait for a better pass.

Have a nice weekend.

Omar XE1AO DK89df

---

M.C. Omar Alvarez Cárdenas Facultad de Telematica, U de C 316 1075 xe1aom@ucol.mx omar_ac@hotmail.com

---

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_______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb

An interesting account, Clayton. It reminds me of my shipboard contact with my ham radio club back in 2008. We had a contact on AO-51 scheduled, and at the appointed time I gave my call (between the current QSOs) and a handful of stations answered, I asked them to please stand by while I completed the scheduled contact and they were quite nice and did so. As soon as I finished the contact with the club I asked for the others and the contacts were fast and furious but really quite orderly.

Whether that is testament to the perhaps fewer ops on AO-51 back then, or the courtesy of the operators, could probably be argued. I believe it was the latter, and coupled with the fact that there were fewer stations that could not hear the satellite, trying to call it anyway (which seems more common these days, just my observation) made it work.

Being a "rare" grid (FL66) at the time everybody wanted to work, but a lot more people got to work because everybody was courteous and waited for the short QSO exchange to be completed. Even though my callsign VP9/N0JY/MM felt like about a 10 second mouthful... :-)

My summary thought is the same as yours: If I don't work this station/grid right now, is it really the end of the world? A growing number of people (good ops) have satellite VUCC. And I probably wasn't planning on selling or throwing away my Arrow and HT (or home satellite station) 10 minutes after the contact opportunity, so since that guy is on a ship nowhere near land I'll bet he'll be out there on the air again when the satellite is in view of that area if he had a pleasant experience the first time. Or, if someone drove out to Armageddon Grid, if I really really need THAT grid, I'll bet someone will do it again if they had a pleasant experience the first time! It's all about the pleasant experience, the fact that the op is out there in the middle of nowhere is because they ENJOY doing that!

73, Jerry N0JY

On 10/2/2011 8:56 AM, Clayton Coleman W5PFG wrote:

Since I am relatively “green” myself to FM satellite rover operation, I will share an observation from a recent grid expedition in West Texas. I’ve observed a behavior that I refer to as “Armageddon grid.” This means the rover operator is activating a grid for the last time before the world meets a fiery demise and doesn't know it until he gives his call and grid square.

This is an overview of an Armageddon grid activation:

1. Rover station calls one of his friends or scheduled contact.

2. Up to five stations immediately call the rover station in rapid

procession, not allowing a millisecond between calls for anyone to answer. Never mind the opportunity of the rover’s original station called establishing contact.

3. At this point, the rover station tries to complete his original

call (if/when the dust settles.)

4. Typically what occurs is step 2-3 wind up in a loop for a period of

2-3 minutes thus effectively reducing the usable time for other stations to make contact on the pass by one-third or more.

If operators would not treat working a rare grid as if the world is coming to an end immediately after the pass, I believe rover stations would have a much more pleasant time handing out new grids.

If you miss that desired grid today, doesn’t that leave opportunity for you to work it on another day?

73 Clayton W5PFG

Sebastion - Good points. Here are some more.

The best contest and pileup ops are those that get it right the first time. If you ever see a video of a high rate contest station or DXpedition it doesn't seem like they are going that fast, but they are doing rates of 120+. They use their exchanges effectively.

Anyone can improve their rate. Always use phonetics. If you get part of a call give a report and get his call when he gives his report. Use numbers instead of decades, that is say six five instead of sixty five. Minimize the chit chat. These procedures lead to getting the exchanges and calls right with a minimum of exchanges.

Example: ...

TU QRZ Kilo Kilo Six Mike Charlie

...Pileup...

Four Alpha Sierra Delta Mike Six Five

Kilo Kilo Six Mike Charlie QSL Echo Lima Eight Four Whiskey Four Alpha Sierra

Whiskey Four Alpha Sierra TU QRZ Kilo Kilo Six Mike Charlie

pileup

repeat

If you have to call CQ more than once it isn't a pileup. :^)=

Of course you can't control what the other guy sends, but you can control what you send and the tempo of the whole exchange, which is what it takes to make a lot of QSOs in a short time. It is easy to get overwhelmed, and that is OK, but don't let the pileup know.

Fills take up a lot of time and anything you can do to minimize it with good operating practices will improve rate. This procedure also satisfies those, mostly weak signal ops, who want a valid QSO to consist of both stations copying both calls, a significant piece of information (grid square), and then confirming that the information has been exchanged. This is a valid point, although many, particularly on HF do not necessarily agree.

CW simplifies things a bit, plus there are fewer calling.

Of course the real problem is getting newcomers to move up to linear satellites where multiple QSOs can be supported. - DUffey KK6MC

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Good points Mike.

I agree that not everyone on a satellite pass is interested in working the 'rare' grid.

However if someone goes to the trouble of setting up a portable station for the benefit of others to grab a new grid, I think those users who aren't interested in chasing grids should standby while the others attempt to make contact with that station. After all, with the short pass on the LEO birds, there isn't much time to do anything else; unless you get on during the early morning hours, or during the middle of the day when the activity isn't as high as on the weekends and you can actually have a 10 minute QSO with someone.

As far as the linear birds are concerned, I have a Yaesu FT-847 that's dedicated for satellites. It's interesting that most of the time I get on the satellites, is on the FM birds! Unfortunately, that's because most of the time I get on the linear birds, there's either no one on there, or perhaps just one other station.

It's funny that many times when I do make a contact on a linear bird, the other station wants to just follow the FM procedure of exchanging grids, and not much else, even though they still have a lot of time left in the footprint. I personally like to chew the rag on a linear bird (and on HF), but that doesn't happen very often on the satellites.

While we can all continue to hope for a HEO, and try to encourage those who do have the gear to get on the linear birds; the fact is the FM birds are a victim of their own success.

73 de Sebastian, W4AS

On Oct 3, 2011, at 10:58 AM, Michael Schulz wrote:

Hi,

While I do agree with the below, one thing we should keep in mind though is that there's a difference between a pile-up on HF and on an FM sat. Not everybody on the sat may be actually interested in working that particular station so we also have to give those some room (in that 10 minute pass). On HF the time it takes to work the pile-up is usually a lot longer than that.

The other problem is that before the madness starts, there are always other stations already working contacts before the "rare grid" station comes into the footprint.

Of course the best solution would be to get on the linear birds, we all win the lottery so that we can launch another Phase III sat or two and it would'nt be a problem anymore. (Ok, ok .. just teasing).

73 Mike K5TRI

Mike,

I find myself calling in the pile on HF on occasion (I'm working on helping my HF signal this week). Getting through on satellite is much easier and faster. Back when we had AO-13 and AO-10 we also had AO-21 (FM Bird). The FM bird was pretty much the same in those days. You are correct it is a lot like contesting. I actually enjoy the quick exchange format of the FM birds. I really don't understand why other folks feel the need to complain about it-- if you like it join us -- if it's not your cup of tea, there are many other facets of Ham radio available.

73, Joe kk0sd

-----Original Message----- From: amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org [mailto:amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org] On Behalf Of Michael Schulz Sent: Monday, October 03, 2011 9:59 AM To: amsat-bb BBs Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: AO-51 pass at 22:06 UTC 2011-10-01

Hi,

While I do agree with the below, one thing we should keep in mind though is that there's a difference between a pile-up on HF and on an FM sat. Not everybody on the sat may be actually interested in working that particular station so we also have to give those some room (in that 10 minute pass). On HF the time it takes to work the pile-up is usually a lot longer than that.

One thing I'd be interested to explore though would be how many of the folks that work the FM sats regularly actually do work DX on HF and often find themselves in a pile-up trying to get through quick and clean. This is out of pure interest and may help make it easier for some.

The other problem is that before the madness starts, there are always other stations already working contacts before the "rare grid" station comes into the footprint.

Of course the best solution would be to get on the linear birds, we all win the lottery so that we can launch another Phase III sat or two and it would'nt be a problem anymore. (Ok, ok .. just teasing).

73 Mike K5TRI

On Oct 2, 2011, at 4:09 PM, James Duffey wrote:

Sebastion - Good points. Here are some more.

The best contest and pileup ops are those that get it right the first

time. If you ever see a video of a high rate contest station or DXpedition it doesn't seem like they are going that fast, but they are doing rates of 120+. They use their exchanges effectively.

Anyone can improve their rate. Always use phonetics. If you get part of a

call give a report and get his call when he gives his report. Use numbers instead of decades, that is say six five instead of sixty five. Minimize the chit chat. These procedures lead to getting the exchanges and calls right with a minimum of exchanges.

Example: ...

TU QRZ Kilo Kilo Six Mike Charlie

...Pileup...

Four Alpha Sierra Delta Mike Six Five

Kilo Kilo Six Mike Charlie QSL Echo Lima Eight Four Whiskey Four

Alpha Sierra

Whiskey Four Alpha Sierra TU QRZ Kilo Kilo Six Mike Charlie

pileup

repeat

If you have to call CQ more than once it isn't a pileup. :^)=

Of course you can't control what the other guy sends, but you can control

what you send and the tempo of the whole exchange, which is what it takes to make a lot of QSOs in a short time. It is easy to get overwhelmed, and that is OK, but don't let the pileup know.

Fills take up a lot of time and anything you can do to minimize it with

good operating practices will improve rate. This procedure also satisfies those, mostly weak signal ops, who want a valid QSO to consist of both stations copying both calls, a significant piece of information (grid square), and then confirming that the information has been exchanged. This is a valid point, although many, particularly on HF do not necessarily agree.

CW simplifies things a bit, plus there are fewer calling.

Of course the real problem is getting newcomers to move up to linear

satellites where multiple QSOs can be supported. - DUffey KK6MC

...

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