People often ask me why more of the AMSAT leadership doesn't participate on the AMSAT-BB. I think that over the last few weeks we have seen ample reason why. We've been accused of stupidity, malfeasance, sloth, and called out at every opportunity. I've about had it with the trolling and the bickering and the internet commandos cruising for reactions. They've caused it to cease being fun or even interesting to participate in this email list.
I'd like each and every one of you to consider how you'd feel if you gave several hours a day for free to an organization to only get sarcastic, bitter criticism at your efforts in return? Sit back and think where the organization would be today if all the current volunteers decided they'd rather sit behind a keyboard and tear someone else's work down rather than analyze telemetry, plan schedules, maintain webpages, solder circuit boards, mail ballots, test batteries, process renewals, inquire about new opportunities, mentor a beginner or a cubesat project, write an article, schedule an ARISS QSO, etc? Next time you feel that urge to criticize or even hurt AMSAT in public, remember that behind every thing AMSAT does is someone who decided to volunteer rather than do something more selfish with their time, and those folks have feelings and egos and frailties. Push them too hard and you might find they pack their bags and leave.
I know AMSAT has had it's issues over it's long history, and we are all disappointed that HEOs seem to be almost out of reach for us now. We are all human and we all make mistakes, especially when it involves rocket engines, building spacecraft on hobby store budgets, and getting all past our benefactor launch agency trials and schedules. We have also learned from our mistakes, and it is time to move ahead. Our officers and our BOD is almost entirely different from just 5 years ago. I think if we can quit flinging mud at each other for a few moments, you'll see that there are some good things just around the corner for AMSAT, and those good things may lead to great things. But we need your support and understanding, not your slings and arrows. What have you done for your AMSAT lately?
If a member has a problem with or suggestion for how a volunteer is doing their job, contact them through the website regardless of what your interpretation of "bug" is, or directly via email or even a phone call. Be prepared to back up your complaint with an offer of help. Sometimes it will work, and sometime it won't. But please, for the sake of the organization, keep the sarcasm, the bitter jabs, and the trolling and bickering off the -bb.
73, Drew KO4MA lowly AMSAT servant
Hi -bb, I do not know if I speak for a large number of receivers from the amsat - bb - but it is sometimes difficult to read and understand the "finer" details of such a conversation as has taken place over the last days. That is when our first language is not English/American.
It started with John's e-mail, which was not easy to understand in any other way than a large criticism of the way AMSAT is run these days. May be it looks different for people with a better mastering of English - but to me it appeared very negative and non constructive. If there are mistakes on the homepage - why not just point that out, and that is it ?
Criticism can be positive and constructive and lead to improvements for the better of AMSAT worldwide - but unfortunately also to the opposite.
Please (all) try to be constructive and positive. I think most of us will appreciate that :-)
Hope this e-mail is understandable. My native language is Danish. 73 OZ1MY Ib
I could not agree with you more...
There is constructive and destructive criticism. The problem I have seen or more precisely - read. Is that some people seem to lump them both together and don't want to read any criticism unless of course it blends in with their own bias.
To my way of thinking, if a person have a complaint, it should be aired and in all fairness investigated and if need be, changes made. All to often I have read on this BBS statements that lead me to believe - or to more properly state my feelings - that unless you are one of the elitist few, then your complaints will often be denigrated or you ~ as the author ~ will be politely told you have no idea of what you speak, which usually in the long run is the root of the problem. The writer does not know and the information is not readily at hand.
I will give you an example... The only energies I see being spent at this time and projected into the future are for more LEOS of one kind or another. The argument I have seen advanced is that this is because it is all we can do... It would seem to me there would be a HEO project moving along (under design at least) against the day that this becomes a possibility. However whenever someone mentions a HEO, rather than being encouraged to join a discussion group, a plans and engineering group or something of this ilk, I see the denigration begin. To me it is this short sighted and to my way of thinking, stifling mindset that is AMSATS largest shortcoming and perhaps even its downfall. Perhaps there is a planning group for a HEO, but if so, it is well hid.
DE KD1PE
----- Original Message ----- From: "OZ1MY" [email protected] To: "Andrew Glasbrenner" [email protected]; [email protected] Sent: Tuesday, September 01, 2009 4:20 PM Subject: [amsat-bb] please be positive
Hi -bb, I do not know if I speak for a large number of receivers from the amsat - bb - but it is sometimes difficult to read and understand the "finer" details of such a conversation as has taken place over the last days. That is when our first language is not English/American.
The biggest problem is that a significant number or those here seem unable to read AND UNDERSTAND what has been said BEFORE thay open their mouths.
Jack K. wrote:
I could not agree with you more...
There is constructive and destructive criticism. The problem I have seen or more precisely
Let me address this one paragraph.
I will give you an example... The only energies I see being spent at this time and projected into the future are for more LEOS of one kind or another.
The AMSAT engineering task force was involved with a detailed proposal put together by Tom Clark for a GEO rideshare package last year. Unfortunately that did not work out, but it did lead us to develop a modular construction strategy where we may be able to quickly respond to some opportunity. Any effort put into a LEO package has direct applications to a HEO spacecraft, or educational aspects, or usually both.
The argument I have seen advanced is that this is because it is all we can do... It would seem to me there would be a HEO project moving along (under design at least) against the day that this becomes a possibility.
Let me remind you that AMSAT-DL has a 90% constructed HEO waiting for a way to pay for a launch. Until they find and pay for a launch, they don't have a viable HEO program either. Unfortunately, and this is my opinion, I believe the size and shape of that HEO severely restricts how it can get to orbit. I'm not criticizing the German effort, I support it. I merely am pointing out a problem that we must avoid. We do indeed learn as we go.
As an example of the issue: Say we have our physical Eagle spacecraft which has been through 3 or 4 iterations, but damn it we built it anyways. Let's say we replicated AO-13, like P3E. So we manage to find a few million to launch as a secondary and we decide ULA is the launch agency. Take a look at http://www.ulalaunch.com/docs/product_sheet/SmallSpacecraftProductCard.pdf . Would our spacecraft fit in anything other than the largest, most expensive space? Did we design it to take the G forces of launch while stowed vertically, horizontally, or inverted? What seperation system did we build into the spacecraft? Does it even fit in the space allowed? This problem is present no matter the launch vehicle or agency.
Many of us have come to the conclusion that it is a bit fruitless to build a spacecraft without knowing the size, shape and orientation of the ride we are taking to orbit. That's why we are developing a modular approach to be able to react quickly, with space proven hardware even, to a short fuse opportunity to LEO, HEO, MEO, or GEO.
However
whenever someone mentions a HEO, rather than being encouraged to join a discussion group, a plans and engineering group or something of this ilk, I see the denigration begin. To me it is this short sighted and to my way of thinking, stifling mindset that is AMSATS largest shortcoming and perhaps even its downfall. Perhaps there is a planning group for a HEO, but if so, it is well hid.
AMSAT-BB is a giant discussion group. Talk about related items as much as you want. Identify some launch or funding opportunities. Write a paper for the symposium. If your ideas are good, you do what you say you will do, and you are a team player, sooner or later you will find yourself asked to participate at higher and higher levels. Listen, I own stock in Ford, drive three different Ford vehicles, but I know that I'm not going to get to design the next F150 just because I had a comment on an email list. I'm not trying to be flippant, I just am pointing out that you have to actively prove yourself to be part of that level of volunteering for AMSAT. I didn't go from suggesting ideas on the -bb right to the BOD or a VP slot. I busted tail at hamfests for years, hawking books and t-shirts and doing the Arrow dance. We always need active Area Coordinators. I didn't like what I saw happening with the first version of the Echo Ops group, and got volunteered after showing up at a BOD meeting and making a strong argument for a better way. For two years I helped with scheduling and events, and when Mike resigned I was asked to do the job of VP Ops. I did that for a time before deciding to run for the BOD. I've picked up other responsibilities here and there when no one else would do them or when I was the best qualified (I think that's happened once!). That is how you make things happen in AMSAT, and that is the type of volunteers we need more of.
Nothing in AMSAT is well hid. Something may be lost from time to time, but never hid. To be hid means it was done intentionally. Sometimes there just isn't enough volunteers to go around.
Enough for tonight. I hope I've managed to express at least some of my views on the topic. What I've said may not match up 100% with AMSAT policy, but there it is.
73, Drew KO4MA
Until they find and pay for a launch, they don't have a viable HEO program either. Unfortunately, and this is my opinion, I believe the size and shape of that HEO severely restricts how it can get to orbit. I'm not criticizing the German effort, I support it. I merely am pointing out a problem that we must avoid. We do indeed learn as we go.
Andrew, it all depends on how you define "Program".
If you want to build a homebuilt airplane and have all the drawings and schematics/plans etc...then you could say "I have a program"... on the other hand if you have a 90 percent built airplane in your garage...well
I am quite sure the only way for P3E to get to orbit is Ariane. That is also the mechanism through which the money is going to come.
If suitsat 2 is any indication, if Elon Musk told Amsat tomorrow you could have space on his Falcon 9, probably couldnt make it with Amsat's record.
Robert WB5MZO
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And your English far better than most peoples mastery of ANY other language used here.
OZ1MY wrote:
Hope this e-mail is understandable. My native language is Danish. 73 OZ1MY
And judging by the working of some ads I see on QTH.COM and QRZ.COM, it is better than the English of plenty of native English speakers here.
73s John AA5JG
--- On Tue, 9/1/09, Nigel Gunn G8IFF/W8IFF [email protected] wrote:
From: Nigel Gunn G8IFF/W8IFF [email protected] Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: please be positive To: [email protected] Date: Tuesday, September 1, 2009, 5:56 PM And your English far better than most peoples mastery of ANY other language used here.
OZ1MY wrote:
Hope this e-mail is understandable. My native language
is Danish.
73 OZ1MY
-- Nigel A. Gunn, 1865 El Camino Drive, Xenia, OH 45385-1115, USA. tel +1 937 825 5032 Amateur Radio G8IFF W8IFF (was KC8NHF), e-mail [email protected] www http://www.ngunn.net Member of ARRL, GQRP #11396, QRPARCI #11644, SOC #548, Flying Pigs QRP Club International #385, Dayton ARA #2128, AMSAT-NA LM-1691, AMSAT-UK 0182, MKARS, ALC, GCARES, XWARN.
Sent via [email protected]. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
I'm running the same config file I always use in SATpc32 with l/u mode on AO-51 and for some reason the u/l has gone up by 3 or 4k. Anyone else notice this?
73 Jeff kb2m
People often ask me why more of the AMSAT leadership doesn't participate on the AMSAT-BB. I think that over the last few weeks we have seen ample reason why. We've been accused of stupidity, malfeasance, sloth, and called out at every opportunity. I've about had it with the trolling and the bickering and the internet commandos cruising for reactions. They've caused it to cease being fun or even interesting to participate in this email list.
Please hang in there, Drew...for every one of the idiot whiners, there are probably several hundred of us that deplore them, but they'll dry up and blow away, just like a cloud of bad gas!!
This has had many a repeat performance in the past, and the names always change....
73, Dave, WB6LLO [email protected]
Disagree: I learn....
Pulling for P3E...
Dave got it right. The silent majority are your fans me included
So A big at a boy for you Drew and thanks
nick
People often ask me why more of the AMSAT leadership doesn't participate on the AMSAT-BB. I think that over the last few weeks we have seen ample
reason
why. We've been accused of stupidity, malfeasance, sloth, and called out at every opportunity. I've about had it with the trolling and the bickering
and
the internet commandos cruising for reactions. They've caused it to cease being fun or even interesting to participate in this email list.
Please hang in there, Drew...for every one of the idiot whiners, there are probably several hundred of us that deplore them, but they'll dry up and blow away, just like a cloud of bad gas!!
This has had many a repeat performance in the past, and the names always change....
73, Dave, WB6LLO [email protected]
Disagree: I learn....
Gee, a voice of reason. How refreshing! I thought there was none left to be heard. Drew for Gods sake don't get discouraged. Amsat needs folks like you.
Keep up the good work. 73's << John
On Wed, Sep 2, 2009 at 6:43 AM, nick[email protected] wrote:
Dave got it right. The silent majority are your fans me included
So A big at a boy for you Drew and thanks
nick
People often ask me why more of the AMSAT leadership doesn't participate on the AMSAT-BB. I think that over the last few weeks we have seen ample
reason
why. We've been accused of stupidity, malfeasance, sloth, and called out at every opportunity. I've about had it with the trolling and the bickering
and
the internet commandos cruising for reactions. They've caused it to cease being fun or even interesting to participate in this email list.
Please hang in there, Drew...for every one of the idiot whiners, there are probably several hundred of us that deplore them, but they'll dry up and blow away, just like a cloud of bad gas!!
This has had many a repeat performance in the past, and the names always change....
73, Dave, WB6LLO [email protected]
Disagree: I learn....
Sent via [email protected]. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Nick...nice thing about a silent majority...it can be defined at will Robert WB5ZO
From: [email protected] To: [email protected]; [email protected] Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2009 05:43:43 -0500 CC: [email protected] Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Trolls on the -bb
Dave got it right. The silent majority are your fans me included
So A big at a boy for you Drew and thanks
nick
People often ask me why more of the AMSAT leadership doesn't participate on the AMSAT-BB. I think that over the last few weeks we have seen ample
reason
why. We've been accused of stupidity, malfeasance, sloth, and called out at every opportunity. I've about had it with the trolling and the bickering
and
the internet commandos cruising for reactions. They've caused it to cease being fun or even interesting to participate in this email list.
Please hang in there, Drew...for every one of the idiot whiners, there are probably several hundred of us that deplore them, but they'll dry up and blow away, just like a cloud of bad gas!!
This has had many a repeat performance in the past, and the names always change....
73, Dave, WB6LLO [email protected] Disagree: I learn....
Sent via [email protected]. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
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Drew................ well said!
I have read all the comments the last few weeks and wonder to myself "the biggest grippers on the BB, I have never even heard on a satellite in the last 18 months". (I have kept a spread sheet for over 18 months - 1350+ entries of all the operators heard) I often remember the phrase "Praise in public, criticize in private." And..... put your money where your mouth is! Folks..... they are volunteers... What have you done to make things better? LEO, HEO, hey, launch a pie pan to bounce a signal off.... I'll be a happy camper. Let's move forward and work to get something in space.
My two cents, Rick - WA4NVM, LM 1339
People often ask me why more of the AMSAT leadership doesn't participate on the AMSAT-BB. I think that over the last few weeks we have seen ample reason why. We've been accused of stupidity, malfeasance, sloth, and called out at every opportunity. I've about had it with the trolling and the bickering and the internet commandos cruising for reactions. They've caused it to cease being fun or even interesting to participate in this email list.
I'd like each and every one of you to consider how you'd feel if you gave several hours a day for free to an organization to only get sarcastic, bitter criticism at your efforts in return? Sit back and think where the organization would be today if all the current volunteers decided they'd rather sit behind a keyboard and tear someone else's work down rather than analyze telemetry, plan schedules, maintain webpages, solder circuit boards, mail ballots, test batteries, process renewals, inquire about new opportunities, mentor a beginner or a cubesat project, write an article, schedule an ARISS QSO, etc? Next time you feel that urge to criticize or even hurt AMSAT in public, remember that behind every thing AMSAT does is someone who decided to volunteer rather than do something more selfish with their time, and those folks have feelings and egos and frailties. Push them too hard and you might find they pack their bags and leave.
I know AMSAT has had it's issues over it's long history, and we are all disappointed that HEOs seem to be almost out of reach for us now. We are all human and we all make mistakes, especially when it involves rocket engines, building spacecraft on hobby store budgets, and getting all past our benefactor launch agency trials and schedules. We have also learned from our mistakes, and it is time to move ahead. Our officers and our BOD is almost entirely different from just 5 years ago. I think if we can quit flinging mud at each other for a few moments, you'll see that there are some good things just around the corner for AMSAT, and those good things may lead to great things. But we need your support and understanding, not your slings and arrows. What have you done for your AMSAT lately?
If a member has a problem with or suggestion for how a volunteer is doing their job, contact them through the website regardless of what your interpretation of "bug" is, or directly via email or even a phone call. Be prepared to back up your complaint with an offer of help. Sometimes it will work, and sometime it won't. But please, for the sake of the organization, keep the sarcasm, the bitter jabs, and the trolling and bickering off the -bb.
73, Drew KO4MA lowly AMSAT servant
Sent via [email protected]. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
The AMSAT issues are all in the text?
On 1 Sep 2009 at 17:45, Andrew Glasbrenner wrote:
I've about had it with the trolling and the bickering and the internet commandos cruising for reactions. They've caused it to cease being fun or even interesting to participate in this email list.
Voicing an opinion is really " cruising for reactions" I think not or theses opinions are probably exposing something who should not be disclose fearing the membership/sponsored reactions?
rather than analyze telemetry, plan schedules, maintain webpages, solder circuit boards, mail ballots, test batteries, process renewals, inquire about new opportunities, mentor a beginner or a cubesat project, write an article, schedule an ARISS QSO, etc?
I don't remember having read anything about criticisms on the work done but on what some are thinking the next moves and orientation should be. I think it is more a second guessing problem than anything else. Stage coach are always watching in your back just beware...
I know AMSAT has had it's issues over it's long history, and we are all disappointed that HEOs seem to be almost out of reach for us now. We are all human and we all make mistakes, especially when it involves rocket engines, building spacecraft on hobby store budgets, and getting all past our benefactor launch agency trials and schedules.
If "HEOs seem to be almost out of reach for us now" what we should do next? no more false illusions about geo sat's and so on just get back on earth and focused on how to help P3E and our German friend.
We have also learned from our mistakes,
Is it not natural to try to remember our past mistakes to avoid them in future?
it is time to move ahead. Our officers and our BOD is almost entirely different from just 5 years ago.
Is this will carry any new ideas even if the names are changing? I think not as the closed AMSAT-NA BOD circle is still hovering above.
If a member has a problem with or suggestion for how a volunteer is doing their job, contact them through the website
Some are trying but they don't succeed AMSAT-NA is not like your local ham club where you can see your partners each week end. It was a time where this "club" spirit was there and it give's AO-40 and Echo.
Aside of a HEO sat what's remain next? Cubes? and Arisat a 6 scrabble point word! and ISS? yes we all know there is a cross band repeater up there resting on the wall !!
Is it possible to let the paying members operating the sat's without always feeling bad because they are not member of the president club or as they don' t donate much or just they are unable or not interested to be a volunteer?
When you are watching a movie even if all the attendance want's to help all at the same time the guy who play with the film reel there will not be enough room to let all of them go in.
If the pressure is too high it is probably an indication of a communication problem?, Not listening or just standing by our ideas will just increased the complaining factor.
P.S. Success and achievement are the criticisms antidote and a perverse man stirs up dissension, and a gossip separates close friends
"-"
Luc Leblanc VE2DWE Skype VE2DWE www.qsl.net/ve2dwe WAC BASIC CW PHONE SATELLITE
P3E is a HEO with the same engine as P3D and no benefactor funding a launch. It seems more reasonable to focus on projects that we can pay to launch or where someone has already donated the launch.
73,
John KD6OZH
----- Original Message ----- From: "Luc Leblanc" [email protected] To: [email protected] Sent: Wednesday, September 02, 2009 02:42 UTC Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Trolls on the -bb
I know AMSAT has had it's issues over it's long history, and we are all disappointed that HEOs seem to be almost out of reach for us now. We are all human and we all make mistakes, especially when it involves rocket engines, building spacecraft on hobby store budgets, and getting all past our benefactor launch agency trials and schedules.
If "HEOs seem to be almost out of reach for us now" what we should do next? no more false illusions about geo sat's and so on just get back on earth and focused on how to help P3E and our German friend.
----- Original Message ----- From: "John B. Stephensen" [email protected] To: "Luc Leblanc" [email protected]; [email protected] Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 10:12 AM Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Trolls on the -bb
P3E is a HEO with the same engine as P3D and no benefactor funding a
launch.
Hi John, KD6OZH
P3E is the only HEO with the possibility to be launched because her will carry on several experiments related to the Mars probe P5A under development in AMSAT-DL P3E is already made and it is standing in the labs of the University of Marburg Germany and is waiting for a launch opportunity while P5E is still under development.
It seems more reasonable to focus on projects that we can pay to launch
All joined AMSAT togheter in the world has not the financial capability to pay for a HEO launch and this matter has been already discussed several time on this BB
or where someone has already donated the launch.
Nobody has donated a launch for free or about for free on HEO except ESA for OSCAR-10 OSCAR-13 and AO40 upon political strategy conducted mostly by AMSAT-DL and this is why we must pull for P3E.......I agree completely with Luc, VE2DWE
Actually the rest of HEO's are only on brains, on desk and on papers.
73,
John KD6OZH
73" de
i8CVS Domenico
----- Original Message ----- From: "Luc Leblanc" [email protected] To: [email protected] Sent: Wednesday, September 02, 2009 02:42 UTC Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Trolls on the -bb
I know AMSAT has had it's issues over it's long history, and we are all disappointed that HEOs seem to be almost out of reach for us now. We
are
all human and we all make mistakes, especially when it involves rocket engines, building spacecraft on hobby store budgets, and getting all past our benefactor launch agency trials and schedules.
If "HEOs seem to be almost out of reach for us now" what we should do next? no more false illusions about geo sat's and so on just get back on earth and focused on how to help P3E and our German friend.
Sent via [email protected]. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Projects that we can afford means LEOs. P3A through P3D were built for identified launches. AMSAT shouldn't just sit around waiting for the right political climate for P3E.
73,
John KD6OZH
----- Original Message ----- From: "i8cvs" [email protected] To: "John B. Stephensen" [email protected]; "Luc Leblanc" [email protected]; "AMSAT-BB" [email protected] Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 09:51 UTC Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Trolls on the -bb
It seems more reasonable to focus on projects that we can pay to launch
All joined AMSAT togheter in the world has not the financial capability to pay for a HEO launch and this matter has been already discussed several time on this BB
or where someone has already donated the launch.
Nobody has donated a launch for free or about for free on HEO except ESA for OSCAR-10 OSCAR-13 and AO40 upon political strategy conducted mostly by AMSAT-DL and this is why we must pull for P3E.......I agree completely with Luc, VE2DWE
On Thu, Sep 3, 2009 at 2:04 PM, John B. Stephensen[email protected] wrote:
Projects that we can afford means LEOs. P3A through P3D were built for identified launches. AMSAT shouldn't just sit around waiting for the right political climate for P3E.
73,
I think that despite the difficulties in communication and personality clashes, there is a great deal of agreement on the list about what we want as a group.
We all want a HEO amateur communication satellite in orbit, some of us because we've never had that experience, others because it is our fondest memory of AMSAT operations. Barring that, or perhaps in addition to that, we want to ensure that there are long-range linear-transponder birds available in the future. Oddly enough, despite all the rancor in recent days, none of it seems to be around this core purpose of our group.
Some of our members seem to be concerned that because AMSAT is not pursing this in a wholly direct way or because it is undertaking projects of increased technical difficulty, it is therefore delaying the fulfillment of the above primary goal.
It is my impression that the board members do not share this view. They feel that the current impediment to a HEO launch in full-price launch costs is so great that, for instance, the thousands spent on SuitSat2 would never make a difference, since it is less than a thousandth of the full price. Instead, we should make the best of opportunities in LEO that might support our future work in HEO, MEO, or wherever.
SuitSat2, since it will be the inaugural flight of the long-planned SDX, is seen as fitting the strategy well. SDX is part of P3E and proof that we are technically adept. This proof will be handy for AMSAT-DL as it pursues the clearest path to the launch of P3E, namely through government money that anticipates the mission to Mars. According to this argument, pulling for P3E is no longer a matter of saving pennies, but rather a matter of strutting our stuff, and SS2 is a great way to strut and strut quickly. In this climate, enthusiasm for SDX, SSE and, ultimately, P5 might be worth 100x any amount in cash that we could give individually or as an organization.
Finally, SS2 provides a way of testing a core technology that might become part of a module of a future bird, one built rapidly around a launch opportunity.
I have to say that this strategy for fulfilling our common wishes makes good sense to me. It is predicated on some facts which I accept at second hand: the high cost of HEO; the lack of government sponsored launches in NA. I'm sure that the board would be delighted to have their dismal assessment of *that* situation refuted conclusively. If it cannot, then we must accept that sometimes the fastest route is not the straightest path, but if we feel that this board is not guiding us well towards our goals, we have the opportunity to replace our pathfinders.
73, Bruce VE9QRP
John KD6OZH
----- Original Message ----- From: "i8cvs" [email protected] To: "John B. Stephensen" [email protected]; "Luc Leblanc" [email protected]; "AMSAT-BB" [email protected] Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 09:51 UTC Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Trolls on the -bb
It seems more reasonable to focus on projects that we can pay to launch
All joined AMSAT togheter in the world has not the financial capability to pay for a HEO launch and this matter has been already discussed several time on this BB
or where someone has already donated the launch.
Nobody has donated a launch for free or about for free on HEO except ESA for OSCAR-10 OSCAR-13 and AO40 upon political strategy conducted mostly by AMSAT-DL and this is why we must pull for P3E.......I agree completely with Luc, VE2DWE
Sent via [email protected]. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
On 3 Sep 2009 at 14:50, Bruce Robertson wrote:
Date sent: Thu, 03 Sep 2009 14:50:20 -0300 From: Bruce Robertson [email protected] Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Re: Trolls on the -bb To: "John B. Stephensen" [email protected] Copies to: i8cvs [email protected], Luc Leblanc [email protected], AMSAT-BB [email protected]
It is my impression that the board members do not share this view. They feel that the current impediment to a HEO launch in full-price launch costs is so great that, for instance, the thousands spent on SuitSat2 would never make a difference, since it is less than a thousandth of the full price. Instead, we should make the best of opportunities in LEO that might support our future work in HEO, MEO, or wherever.
As Bruce wrote "It is my impression that the board members do not share this view" and "Instead, we should make the best of opportunities in LEO that might support our future work in HEO, MEO,or wherever." as articulate his text is, he's assuming something that i understand as 1-Short term, medium and long term objectives but as far as i know there is none written or planned on paper all is based on Target of Opportunity lets called that a short term vision. In fact there is nothing wrong with that but again what about the long term?
If money is a key factor how as a group of satellite communicators can we reach the long term one? "We all want a HEO amateur communication satellite in orbit, some of us because we've never had that experience, others because it is our fondest memory of AMSAT operations" lets say a HEO is the long term objective and as Domenico wrote " Nobody has donated a launch for free or about for free on HEO except ESA for OSCAR-10 OSCAR-13 and AO40 upon political strategy conducted mostly by AMSAT-DL and this is why we must pull for P3E" There is room for short and medium term projects but putting aside the long term will only put AMSAT-NA on a side track forcing them to reevaluate their mission as i wrote in another post.
In the mean time i all invite you Sul terrazzo di I8CVS on http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8026221200764903522#
And for those who prefer golf and the summer Napoli beaches http://fr.video.yahoo.com/watch/944416/3686620
"-"
Luc Leblanc VE2DWE Skype VE2DWE www.qsl.net/ve2dwe WAC BASIC CW PHONE SATELLITE
Everyone also needs to understand that SDX makes more efficient use of limited downlink RF power. Less power means fewer extremely costly rad-hard solar panels and lower mass for reduced launch costs.
73,
John KD6OZH
----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce Robertson" [email protected] To: "John B. Stephensen" [email protected] Cc: "i8cvs" [email protected]; "Luc Leblanc" [email protected]; "AMSAT-BB" [email protected] Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 17:50 UTC Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Re: Trolls on the -bb
On Thu, Sep 3, 2009 at 2:04 PM, John B. Stephensen[email protected] wrote:
Projects that we can afford means LEOs. P3A through P3D were built for identified launches. AMSAT shouldn't just sit around waiting for the right political climate for P3E.
73,
I think that despite the difficulties in communication and personality clashes, there is a great deal of agreement on the list about what we want as a group.
We all want a HEO amateur communication satellite in orbit, some of us because we've never had that experience, others because it is our fondest memory of AMSAT operations. Barring that, or perhaps in addition to that, we want to ensure that there are long-range linear-transponder birds available in the future. Oddly enough, despite all the rancor in recent days, none of it seems to be around this core purpose of our group.
Some of our members seem to be concerned that because AMSAT is not pursing this in a wholly direct way or because it is undertaking projects of increased technical difficulty, it is therefore delaying the fulfillment of the above primary goal.
It is my impression that the board members do not share this view. They feel that the current impediment to a HEO launch in full-price launch costs is so great that, for instance, the thousands spent on SuitSat2 would never make a difference, since it is less than a thousandth of the full price. Instead, we should make the best of opportunities in LEO that might support our future work in HEO, MEO, or wherever.
SuitSat2, since it will be the inaugural flight of the long-planned SDX, is seen as fitting the strategy well. SDX is part of P3E and proof that we are technically adept. This proof will be handy for AMSAT-DL as it pursues the clearest path to the launch of P3E, namely through government money that anticipates the mission to Mars. According to this argument, pulling for P3E is no longer a matter of saving pennies, but rather a matter of strutting our stuff, and SS2 is a great way to strut and strut quickly. In this climate, enthusiasm for SDX, SSE and, ultimately, P5 might be worth 100x any amount in cash that we could give individually or as an organization.
Finally, SS2 provides a way of testing a core technology that might become part of a module of a future bird, one built rapidly around a launch opportunity.
I have to say that this strategy for fulfilling our common wishes makes good sense to me. It is predicated on some facts which I accept at second hand: the high cost of HEO; the lack of government sponsored launches in NA. I'm sure that the board would be delighted to have their dismal assessment of *that* situation refuted conclusively. If it cannot, then we must accept that sometimes the fastest route is not the straightest path, but if we feel that this board is not guiding us well towards our goals, we have the opportunity to replace our pathfinders.
73, Bruce VE9QRP
John KD6OZH
----- Original Message ----- From: "i8cvs" [email protected] To: "John B. Stephensen" [email protected]; "Luc Leblanc" [email protected]; "AMSAT-BB" [email protected] Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 09:51 UTC Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Trolls on the -bb
It seems more reasonable to focus on projects that we can pay to launch
All joined AMSAT togheter in the world has not the financial capability to pay for a HEO launch and this matter has been already discussed several time on this BB
or where someone has already donated the launch.
Nobody has donated a launch for free or about for free on HEO except ESA for OSCAR-10 OSCAR-13 and AO40 upon political strategy conducted mostly by AMSAT-DL and this is why we must pull for P3E.......I agree completely with Luc, VE2DWE
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John B. Stephensen wrote:
P3E is a HEO with the same engine as P3D and no benefactor funding a launch. It seems more reasonable to focus on projects that we can pay to launch or where someone has already donated the launch.
I believe that AMSAT should at least consider using the DoD Space Test Program (STP), which provides launches for satellites of interest to the federal government. In fact, the STP has already launched a number of amateur satellites. Of course, HEO launches will still be hard to come by. But, I think it is pretty clear that amateurs can't afford an HEO launch, so we ought to at least try to find someone else to pay for it.
But, in order to get the government to pay, we need to tell a story that the government is interested in. In my view, the federal government is most likely to fund at least two types of projects:
o Projects that develop the next generation of space scientists and engineers. (This is a large part of the reason NASA funds ARISS and SAREX activities. I think this is also why the Naval Academy stuff gets launched.)
o Research projects. Note that AO-40 actually flew a NASA GPS experiment that resulted in at least one journal article. Unfortunately, no one seems to want to talk about research experiments that have flown on, and often subsidized, amateur satellites (much less display this information prominently on the AMSAT Web pages).
Perhaps more importantly, I don't believe that the federal government is likely to fund us primarily to provide emergency communications. There are simply too many other alternatives available today: satellite phones, cellular-base-stations-on-a-truck, and lots of fixed and portable satellite ground stations.
If you have an interest in this topic, you might want to read my DoD Space Test Program paper. (Unlike most AMSAT Symposium presentations, it is available on the Internet. But, that is another difficult topic for AMSAT...)
But, to be able to successfully tell these stories, AMSAT needs to attract new classes of members, particularly today's and tomorrow's engineers, scientists, and technically curious. And, to attract these new classes of members, I believe that AMSAT will need to update some of its views. The Web is vitally important: it is probably the dominant portion of AMSAT's public face seen by prospective members and prospective funding agencies. For example, all the excellent material published in the Journal would benefit AMSAT much more if it was available on the Web.
By the way, the AFRL University Nanosatellite Program (UNP) Web site [!] says that 3,500 students have participated in the program over the last decade. Every one of these young people has a demonstrated interest in building satellites. AMSAT ought to consider every one of them a prospective member and volunteer.
(I also believe that many of these types of prospective members that AMSAT needs in order to be successful expect a voluntary organization like AMSAT to operate transparently, and for its directors and officers to be able to discuss the organization in public in a professional manner. Does anyone else think that it is ironic that discussions about the future of AMSAT are categorized under "troll"?)
-tjs
I have always enjoyed being told I was an idiot for not doing something I actually did (in this case we). We have and I bet still are pursuing these opportunities. I don't know, I am on the outside looking in (by choice). Like all things it is always easy to say "why don't you?" rather than to ask "did you?" and then ask "why has it not worked?" and "may I be of some service?". (Don't bother now, you have surely pissed a bunch of people off). But you were not really looking for information here were you?. Having lived in a few glass houses, I recommend not getting into stone throwing and to go positive. It is always why don't "they" isn't it, why is that? If you have influence with STP that would be good to offer. You should probably know ahead of time that the immediate past president of AMSAT worked on and flew a satellite in the STP program (Midstar) and even with that level of connection we have gained no traction.
The "up front" buy in is very hard to get. STP may seem like it is open "to all" but the reality feels a whole lot like some completely different than "open to all" and that some pretty sure ideas of who would get these rides was done ahead of time and includes but is not necessarily limited to the owners of Midstar and related institutions as being examples of the "good guys". AMSAT not being a good guy, we can't even get an invite to a meeting on how to get invited.
The general tone of the amsat-bb these days seems to be condemnation of failure to achieve the near impossible rather than asking for an accounting of why it is so difficult over and over. I see that even then, people will (in their understandable frustration) lash out and call you a bum and a liar. Even when explanations of the difficulty are provided, they appear to fall on deaf ears and blind eyes. Karl Meinzer, he of the "never failed to get one before" launch history, has utterly failed to get a ride for P3e. We in amsat-na tried in all sorts of ways to help get this going. We built equipment for it and helped in other ways and even paid for ongoing support of housing P3e (done in open board meetings and I believe that every single one of the motions for $$ support in these board meetings was made by me). We then ran head long into the HORROR of ITAR. Please read the president's message here
http://www.amsat.org/amsat-new/index.php
of how it has taken years and tens of thousand of dollars in legal fees to just get a "you have been bad, don't be bad again or you will be fined and maybe clobbered". And only after all of that can we now ask officially can we PLEASE go play with our friends in the amateur radio sandbox?
If at 56 I have learned anything at all from my failures and successes it is that it is always better to walk a mile in someone else's shoes before throwing a stone and if you cannot get anyone to listen to you, give up before you sound like a shrill moron and live to fight another day. I am certain this is a lesson it is better to learn late than not at all.
Bob N4HY
Timothy J. Salo wrote:
John B. Stephensen wrote:
P3E is a HEO with the same engine as P3D and no benefactor funding a launch. It seems more reasonable to focus on projects that we can pay to launch or where someone has already donated the launch.
I believe that AMSAT should at least consider using the DoD Space Test Program (STP), which provides launches for satellites of interest to the federal government. In fact, the STP has already launched a number of amateur satellites. Of course, HEO launches will still be hard to come by. But, I think it is pretty clear that amateurs can't afford an HEO launch, so we ought to at least try to find someone else to pay for it.
But, in order to get the government to pay, we need to tell a story that the government is interested in. In my view, the federal government is most likely to fund at least two types of projects:
o Projects that develop the next generation of space scientists and engineers. (This is a large part of the reason NASA funds ARISS and SAREX activities. I think this is also why the Naval Academy stuff gets launched.)
o Research projects. Note that AO-40 actually flew a NASA GPS experiment that resulted in at least one journal article. Unfortunately, no one seems to want to talk about research experiments that have flown on, and often subsidized, amateur satellites (much less display this information prominently on the AMSAT Web pages).
Perhaps more importantly, I don't believe that the federal government is likely to fund us primarily to provide emergency communications. There are simply too many other alternatives available today: satellite phones, cellular-base-stations-on-a-truck, and lots of fixed and portable satellite ground stations.
If you have an interest in this topic, you might want to read my DoD Space Test Program paper. (Unlike most AMSAT Symposium presentations, it is available on the Internet. But, that is another difficult topic for AMSAT...)
But, to be able to successfully tell these stories, AMSAT needs to attract new classes of members, particularly today's and tomorrow's engineers, scientists, and technically curious. And, to attract these new classes of members, I believe that AMSAT will need to update some of its views. The Web is vitally important: it is probably the dominant portion of AMSAT's public face seen by prospective members and prospective funding agencies. For example, all the excellent material published in the Journal would benefit AMSAT much more if it was available on the Web.
By the way, the AFRL University Nanosatellite Program (UNP) Web site [!] says that 3,500 students have participated in the program over the last decade. Every one of these young people has a demonstrated interest in building satellites. AMSAT ought to consider every one of them a prospective member and volunteer.
(I also believe that many of these types of prospective members that AMSAT needs in order to be successful expect a voluntary organization like AMSAT to operate transparently, and for its directors and officers to be able to discuss the organization in public in a professional manner. Does anyone else think that it is ironic that discussions about the future of AMSAT are categorized under "troll"?)
-tjs
Sent via [email protected]. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
I can clarify this:
I believe that AMSAT should at least consider using the DoD Space Test Program (STP), which provides launches for satellites of interest to the US federal government.
Its not the Feds, its only DOD exclusively. Not even NASA can participate in STP. We have been briefing the STP for a decade now, and are very familiar with the process. And it is not even close to "open to all".
It is a Department of Defense program that priortizes DOD payloads. Nothing else. And the number one selection criteria is "DOD Relevance".
In fact, the STP has already launched a number of amateur satellites.
Sort-of. The Naval Academy and NRL have gotten a few rides to space, but not because they met STP criteria. Our only DOD relevance is "space education" and even that is evaluated dead last (65 out of 65)... Our rides were mostly out of back door luck. It only works if someone is on the inside, and a lucky opportunity is found(see below).
But, in order to get the government to pay, we need to tell a story that the government is interested in.
o Projects that develop the next generation of space scientists/engineers.
Our briefs are exactly on that basis and we are always evaluated dead last.
o Research projects. ...
o [emergency comms] ... I don't believe that the fed... is likely to fund us primarily to provide emergency comms. There are simply too many other alternatives available today...
True, except, they all need infrastructure and investment, and they all want hundreds of megabits per second all the time! From anywhere anytime... They kill any modest idea with chrushing requirements creep.
Once, when explaining this crushing demand which dooms almost every simple solution, I did get a great comment in support of the KISS principle from the skipper of a Nuclear Sub. While describing my attempts to get the 145.825 MHz Packet digipeater satellites operating at 1200 baud to support HT and Mobile amateur radio emergency text messaging (APRS), his comment was something like this:..
"1200 baud? Great! When my sub has NO COMMS AT ALL, a 1200 baud CHAT channel sounds FANTASTIC!"...
And look at the popularity of text messaging, IM, Twitter, etc. A lot can be said in a few dozen bytes. We should concentrate on the KISS principle...
By the way, the AFRL University Nanosatellite Program (UNP) Web site [!] says that 3,500 students have participated in the program over the last decade.
Yes! And most of the time when I meet these students at conferences, etc, they are not hams and have no idea what the amateur radio hobby is about, and so they are not like us, focused on the comms, but instead are focused on something else. My comments about getting a launch through STP may sound negative, but they are not. They are simply saying that the way through STP has to be at the backdoor, through the STUDENTS and the UNIVERSITIES. That is where we are failing to make the contacts and mentoring them through the joy of communictions as an end in itself.
If they WANT to communicate and let others communicate, then they WILL find a way to wriggle it on board as part of their "research" and their "education"... And I can think of no better proponents for modest data-rate TEXT MESSAGING, then the teens and 20-somethings that live and breath it.
See my article on Universal HAM Radio Text Messaging in the Sept QST. And or this web page: www.aprs.org/aprs-messaging.html
Anyway, we need to mentor the students (or anyone else that has backdoor access to potential projects that might fly). A modern amateur radio transponder can be the size of a pack of cigaretts and can fit on just about anyone else's ride...
Bob, Wb4APR
Andrew...come back from a few days on "the boat" and here is this.
I have to tell you that this is either one of the most "hubris" filled missives I have read or you are suffering from a bad case of volunteer burnout (see last years Texas Monthly Bum steer issue where they go through the stages of burnout). Maybe it is both of them...
As best I can tell your missive boils down to three categories.
1. If someone ask questions or doesnt accept my answers on their face then they are being sarcastic or a troll or their question isnt legitimate. 2. If I (or the rest of the volunteers) stop volunteering then the entire organization turns to crap. 3. While we have had some bad things happen some due to serious errors...we alone have learned the lessons so we are invaluable.
You really should stop volunteering or even working for money because unless you are Barrack Obama (or George Bush before him) there are few jobs where almost everything one does is not picked apart" by the rest of the folks...particularly when one is underperforming. (see Dick Cheney's response to no WMD). My real job is testing the airplanes people like you sit back in comfort and ride in and I can assure you that during such an effort the "kibbitzing" from the audience is fairly high.
If you are volunteering at an organization then you are doing it for the members of the organization and about the worst thing one can do, is minimize the input of those members.
As for there being no volunteers unless "you" (generic) do it...lol
When I left on my last assignment there was a guy at our church (lets call him Jim) who was the ultimate volunteer. He started managing the coffee between sunday school and church and by the time I left a few years ago, he was doing everything from managing the Communion to the parking volunteers..he even had his own little office. The line from everyone was "If Jim doesnt do it, who will?"
While I was gone we had a minister change and the new person tired pretty quickly of Jim...and pretty much reduced his role back to the "coffee stand". Jim quit even that. Odd, there are other people who volunteer for every single duty and it actually runs a lot better because Jim was pretty much stifling new blood.
I've never got a straight answer from anyone as to how the Suitsat 2 deployment was missed and why. I have friends in station ops at JSC...I'll bet you money that the effort got so complex that it just missed the dates. I will find out! I know even thinking that is trolling!
LOL
Robert WB5MZO
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participants (18)
-
Andrew Glasbrenner -
Bob McGwier -
Bruce Robertson -
Dave Guimont -
i8cvs -
Jack K. -
Jeff KB2M -
John B. Stephensen -
John Geiger -
John Price -
Luc Leblanc -
nick -
Nigel Gunn G8IFF/W8IFF -
OZ1MY -
Rick - WA4NVM -
Robert Bruninga -
Rocky Jones -
Timothy J. Salo