Frank , I agree, I forgot to mention in my post I was refering to modes U/s and L/S of course. It was great working Brazil with a 1 degree inclination and a 4 minute window to give me WAC on Ao-40, incl antarctica. I cant even work South America on HF from Western Australia, well its damned difficult ! Hopefully we can repeat the fun on P3E, it's contacts in the log that count not which exotic mode was used as far as I'm concerned. See you on P3E one of these days 73 Keith