Re: ITAR is interesting to me
Greetings All:
The Amsat BB is a great source of information we all know: I have a few questions about ITAR that I thought might interest more than I. I tried to be careful of the words I used.
1.) Do all launched satellites that have US components or interests fall under ITAR? 2.) When does ITAR interest begin for a launchable Amateur satellite? 3.) Is software and firmware that is a part of a Amateur satellite at launch fall under ITAR? 4.) Who normally handles University Cube Sat ITAR issues when Amateur frequencies are used? 5.) Who normally handles US Military school Cube-Sat ITAR issues when Amateur frequencies are use ? 6.) When is there no ITAR interest in a Amateur satellite? 7.) Did Suitsat one or two (ARISSaT-1) have any ITAR problems since they are satellites using Amateur frequency?
I have more ITAR related questions.
Best Regards
Joe K0VTY ==================== ____________________________________________________________ Diet Help Cheap Diet Help Tips. Click here. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/c?cp=GQ3735iirkAKr3lhInn7tAAAJ1CmZc...
Someone mentioned waaay back in this discussion something about ITAR and international students being taught in the US. Read this article:
http://slashdot.org/story/09/10/17/1948223/The-USs-Reverse-Brain-Drain
Is there anyone left in our government with common sense any more? Wait... gah!!! I'm blinded by a flash of the obvious - NO, there is no one left in government with common sense. While I'll not get into the politics of ITAR (we're way beyond politics), perhaps we should get the ARRL involved in lobbying our effort.
Before, you say, "That's a wonderful idea, why don't you take that one and try it." I am. I don't know the exact procedure for doing so, but I think a letter to my ARRL Division Manager might be a good start.
73, Joel, W4JBB
k0vty@juno.com wrote:
Greetings All:
The Amsat BB is a great source of information we all know: I have a few questions about ITAR that I thought might interest more than I. I tried to be careful of the words I used.
1.) Do all launched satellites that have US components or interests fall under ITAR? 2.) When does ITAR interest begin for a launchable Amateur satellite? 3.) Is software and firmware that is a part of a Amateur satellite at launch fall under ITAR? 4.) Who normally handles University Cube Sat ITAR issues when Amateur frequencies are used? 5.) Who normally handles US Military school Cube-Sat ITAR issues when Amateur frequencies are use ? 6.) When is there no ITAR interest in a Amateur satellite? 7.) Did Suitsat one or two (ARISSaT-1) have any ITAR problems since they are satellites using Amateur frequency?
I have more ITAR related questions.
Best Regards
Joe K0VTY
Diet Help Cheap Diet Help Tips. Click here. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/c?cp=GQ3735iirkAKr3lhInn7tAAAJ1CmZc... _______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
k0vty@juno.com wrote:
Greetings All:
The Amsat BB is a great source of information we all know: I have a few questions about ITAR that I thought might interest more than I. I tried to be careful of the words I used.
1.) Do all launched satellites that have US components or interests fall under ITAR?
Yes
2.) When does ITAR interest begin for a launchable Amateur satellite?
The minute you wish to discuss what is in it with someone who is not a US national or want to ship the thing overseas for launch.
3.) Is software and firmware that is a part of a Amateur satellite at launch fall under ITAR?
Most definitely
4.) Who normally handles University Cube Sat ITAR issues when Amateur frequencies are used?
Depends on who is going to do the launch but Cal Poly has been involved for sure.
5.) Who normally handles US Military school Cube-Sat ITAR issues when Amateur frequencies are use ?
U.S. government entities have a form of an exemption because they are a component of the U.S. government (and not a for profit company which might be tempted to sell intellectual property to the highest bidder) and those equities are handled differently. Even then, ITAR only comes into play if non-U.S. citizens are involved in the program and/or an overseas launch is envisioned.
6.) When is there no ITAR interest in a Amateur satellite?
There is interest. That is what is causing us so much grief. It has effectively ended the participation of AMSAT-NA in Phase 3E.
7.) Did Suitsat one or two (ARISSaT-1) have any ITAR problems since they are satellites using Amateur frequency?
NASA is able to work through different channels than AMSAT has to in order to get things launched to the space station. AMSAT-NA will be responsible for ALL transfer of components for ARISSat 1 to the launch site. We might get assistance from some places in the government but it will be handled as an export request and we will have to show how we will protect the equities that need protecting under ITAR.
I have more ITAR related questions.
Best Regards
Joe K0VTY
ANY aspect dealing with a satellite, software, hardware, ground stations (hardware, software, protocols, etc.), ideas, random ejaculations from a diseased mind or whatever that deals with spacecraft or ground stations are DEEMED EXPORTS when they depart a U.S. citizen and are delivered to a non-U.S. citizen. It is a nearly impossible task to abide by and one that really makes me want to throw my hands up in despair and walk away.
There are exceptions for classrooms and courses taught in U.S. university's. A person, even a non-U.S. citizen, who can pay for taking a course, may go and involve themselves in course work, even if it is dealing with the design, construction, and control of spacecraft during the course work. Some of this applies to your earlier questions but for US service academies, there are very few non-U.S. citizens in them.
Bob N4HY
Hi,
if anyone is interested to investigate ITAR regulations further, they will have to dig into the published documents at various Dept of Commerce and other websites. However, here is a blank template in line with http://pmddtc.state.gov/regulations_laws/itar_official.html, just in case, a US Lawful Permanent Resident wants to claim ITAR self-certification in the field of amateur satellites:
{disclaimer, please check with the organization that you are asking ITAR specific permission for, for any required supplementary documentation}
{Warning: the penalty for mis-stating is quite severe}
TEMPLATE
Pursuant to the ITAR’s (International Traffic in Arms Regulations: 22 CFR 120-130) definition of a U.S. Person, 22 CFR 120.15, I {insert name here} hereby certify that I am a U.S. Person.
Printed Name: ______________________ {be sure this is official and matches your records as well}
Address: ______________________
Phone: ___________________________________
Alien Registration: ______________________ {required if you are a US LPR, not required if US Citizen}
Date: ____________________
Signature:
__________________________________________
Affiliation: Member
ABC Corp
Full Address
(Fax signed copy to: _____________________)
Definitions
U.S. Person (22 CFR 120.15) U.S. person means a person (as defined in section 120.14) who is lawful permanent resident as defined by 8 U.S.C. 1101(a)(20) or who is a protected individual as defined by 8 U.S.C. 1324b(a)(3). It also means any corporation, business association, partnership, society, trust, or any other entity, organization or group that is incorporated to do business in the United States. It also includes any governmental (federal, state or local) entity.
8 U.S.C. 1101(a)(20) The term ''lawfully admitted for permanent residence'' means the status of having been lawfully accorded the privilege of residing permanently in the United States as an immigrant in accordance with the immigration laws, such status not having changed.
8 U.S.C. 1324b(a)(3) ''Protected individual'' defined As used in paragraph (1), the term ''protected individual'' means an individual who - (A) is a citizen or national of the United States, or (B) is an alien who is lawfully admitted for permanent residence, is granted the status of an alien lawfully admitted for temporary residence under section 1160(a) or 1255a(a)(1) of this title, is admitted as a refugee under section 1157 of this title, or is granted asylum under section 1158 of this title; but does not include (i) an alien who fails to apply for naturalization within six months of the date the alien first becomes eligible (by virtue of period of lawful permanent residence) to apply for naturalization or, if later, within six months after November 6, 1986, and (ii) an alien who has applied on a timely basis, but has not been naturalized as a citizen within 2 years after the date of the application, unless the alien can establish that the alien is actively pursuing naturalization, except that time consumed in the Service's processing the application shall not be counted toward the 2-year period.
On Sun, Oct 18, 2009 at 6:18 PM, Bob McGwier rwmcgwier@gmail.com wrote:
k0vty@juno.com wrote:
Greetings All:
The Amsat BB is a great source of information we all know: I have a few questions about ITAR that I thought might interest more than I. I tried to be careful of the words I used.
1.) Do all launched satellites that have US components or interests fall under ITAR?
Yes
2.) When does ITAR interest begin for a launchable Amateur satellite?
The minute you wish to discuss what is in it with someone who is not a US national or want to ship the thing overseas for launch.
3.) Is software and firmware that is a part of a Amateur satellite at launch fall under ITAR?
Most definitely
4.) Who normally handles University Cube Sat ITAR issues when Amateur frequencies are used?
Depends on who is going to do the launch but Cal Poly has been involved for sure.
5.) Who normally handles US Military school Cube-Sat ITAR issues when Amateur frequencies are use ?
U.S. government entities have a form of an exemption because they are a component of the U.S. government (and not a for profit company which might be tempted to sell intellectual property to the highest bidder) and those equities are handled differently. Even then, ITAR only comes into play if non-U.S. citizens are involved in the program and/or an overseas launch is envisioned.
6.) When is there no ITAR interest in a Amateur satellite?
There is interest. That is what is causing us so much grief. It has effectively ended the participation of AMSAT-NA in Phase 3E.
7.) Did Suitsat one or two (ARISSaT-1) have any ITAR problems since they are satellites using Amateur frequency?
NASA is able to work through different channels than AMSAT has to in order to get things launched to the space station. AMSAT-NA will be responsible for ALL transfer of components for ARISSat 1 to the launch site. We might get assistance from some places in the government but it will be handled as an export request and we will have to show how we will protect the equities that need protecting under ITAR.
I have more ITAR related questions.
Best Regards
Joe K0VTY
ANY aspect dealing with a satellite, software, hardware, ground stations (hardware, software, protocols, etc.), ideas, random ejaculations from a diseased mind or whatever that deals with spacecraft or ground stations are DEEMED EXPORTS when they depart a U.S. citizen and are delivered to a non-U.S. citizen. It is a nearly impossible task to abide by and one that really makes me want to throw my hands up in despair and walk away.
There are exceptions for classrooms and courses taught in U.S. university's. A person, even a non-U.S. citizen, who can pay for taking a course, may go and involve themselves in course work, even if it is dealing with the design, construction, and control of spacecraft during the course work. Some of this applies to your earlier questions but for US service academies, there are very few non-U.S. citizens in them.
Bob N4HY
-- (Co)Author: DttSP, Quiktrak, PowerSDR, GnuRadio Member: ARRL, AMSAT, AMSAT-DL, TAPR, Packrats, NJQRP, QRP ARCI, QCWA, FRC. "You don't need to see the whole staircase, just take the first step.", MLK. Twitter:rwmcgwier Active: Facebook,Myspace,LinkedIn
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Bob McGwier wrote:
ANY aspect dealing with a satellite, software, hardware, ground stations (hardware, software, protocols, etc.), ideas, random ejaculations from a diseased mind or whatever that deals with spacecraft or ground stations are DEEMED EXPORTS when they depart a U.S. citizen and are delivered to a non-U.S. citizen. It is a nearly impossible task to abide by and one that really makes me want to throw my hands up in despair and walk away.
There are exceptions for classrooms and courses taught in U.S. university's. A person, even a non-U.S. citizen, who can pay for taking a course, may go and involve themselves in course work, even if it is dealing with the design, construction, and control of spacecraft during the course work. Some of this applies to your earlier questions but for US service academies, there are very few non-U.S. citizens in them.
Bob:
I would not dream of second-guessing you for a moment, since you are fully engaged in this stuff and I am simply an interested observer.
However, why doesn't the following quotation directly from the ITAR regulations provide the exemption we need? The quotation comes from the section that defines what are the items that are covered by ITAR:
ITAR Part 121 - The United States Munitions List
-----------------------< begin quote >-------------------------------
Category XV - Spacecraft Systems and Associated Equipment
*(a) Spacecraft, including communications satellites, remote sensing satellites, scientific satellites, research satellites, navigation satellites, experimental and multi-mission satellites.
*NOTE TO PARAGRAPH (a): Commercial communications satellites, scientific satellites, research satellites, and experimental satellites are designated as SME only when the equipment is intended for use by the armed forces of any foreign country.
-----------------------< end quote >---------------------------------
Note that SME refers to "Significant Military Equipment"
Paragraph (a) seems to cover everything and anything having to do with satellites, but the asterisk and "NOTE" attached to it seems to say that an Amateur radio satellite for use by Amateurs instead of foreign armed forces should be exempted, doesn't it?
Granted, I realize that we have already lost one argument with ITAR about our past cooperation with AMSAT-DL, but is there some compelling reason why the lawyers didn't point out this exception?
Just wondering... If I had to guess the answer myself, after looking at the horribly convoluted language of the small piece of the ITAR regulations that I have looked at, there is probably another paragraph elsewhere that effectively says, "we were just kidding when we said that it had to be used by foreign armed forces, we really mean it to cover everything"
John W0JT
Hi John,
The completed satellite is usually exempt. This is how AO-51, as a completed satellite, went to Russia and was launched on a Dnepr. AMSAT has in the past and will in the future, apply for an export license for a satellite. It's when you try to export satellite components or technology, like the IHU, the SDX for the P3E, or engage in dialog regarding a satellites thermal performance the the AMSAT-DL folks to assist them, that you run afoul of ITAR.
There's a big different between sharing technology and components than it is to export a complete satellite for launch. Often the State Dept. will require that a representative(s) of the satellite builders (and sometimes the State Dept. itself) accompany the satellite at all times, insuring that no one can get a closer look than just the outside, right through the launch.
Yes, a bit confusing and frustrating, but workable.
Regards...Bill - N6GHz
John P. Toscano wrote:
Bob McGwier wrote:
ANY aspect dealing with a satellite, software, hardware, ground stations (hardware, software, protocols, etc.), ideas, random ejaculations from a diseased mind or whatever that deals with spacecraft or ground stations are DEEMED EXPORTS when they depart a U.S. citizen and are delivered to a non-U.S. citizen. It is a nearly impossible task to abide by and one that really makes me want to throw my hands up in despair and walk away.
There are exceptions for classrooms and courses taught in U.S. university's. A person, even a non-U.S. citizen, who can pay for taking a course, may go and involve themselves in course work, even if it is dealing with the design, construction, and control of spacecraft during the course work. Some of this applies to your earlier questions but for US service academies, there are very few non-U.S. citizens in them.
Bob:
I would not dream of second-guessing you for a moment, since you are fully engaged in this stuff and I am simply an interested observer.
However, why doesn't the following quotation directly from the ITAR regulations provide the exemption we need? The quotation comes from the section that defines what are the items that are covered by ITAR:
ITAR Part 121 - The United States Munitions List
-----------------------< begin quote >-------------------------------
Category XV - Spacecraft Systems and Associated Equipment
*(a) Spacecraft, including communications satellites, remote sensing satellites, scientific satellites, research satellites, navigation satellites, experimental and multi-mission satellites.
*NOTE TO PARAGRAPH (a): Commercial communications satellites, scientific satellites, research satellites, and experimental satellites are designated as SME only when the equipment is intended for use by the armed forces of any foreign country.
-----------------------< end quote >---------------------------------
Note that SME refers to "Significant Military Equipment"
Paragraph (a) seems to cover everything and anything having to do with satellites, but the asterisk and "NOTE" attached to it seems to say that an Amateur radio satellite for use by Amateurs instead of foreign armed forces should be exempted, doesn't it?
Granted, I realize that we have already lost one argument with ITAR about our past cooperation with AMSAT-DL, but is there some compelling reason why the lawyers didn't point out this exception?
Just wondering... If I had to guess the answer myself, after looking at the horribly convoluted language of the small piece of the ITAR regulations that I have looked at, there is probably another paragraph elsewhere that effectively says, "we were just kidding when we said that it had to be used by foreign armed forces, we really mean it to cover everything"
John W0JT
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
I wonder if we could hook up with a university somewhere? Become part of their graduate program in Astro-something, even get some graduate students to help with the design and manufacture... What sort of restrictions do they have on the definition of a "student"?
Just a thought,
Greg KO6TH
Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2009 12:14:38 -0700 From: bill@hsmicrowave.com To: tosca005@tc.umn.edu CC: amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: ITAR is interesting to me
Hi John,
The completed satellite is usually exempt. This is how AO-51, as a completed satellite, went to Russia and was launched on a Dnepr. AMSAT has in the past and will in the future, apply for an export license for a satellite. It's when you try to export satellite components or technology, like the IHU, the SDX for the P3E, or engage in dialog regarding a satellites thermal performance the the AMSAT-DL folks to assist them, that you run afoul of ITAR.
There's a big different between sharing technology and components than it is to export a complete satellite for launch. Often the State Dept. will require that a representative(s) of the satellite builders (and sometimes the State Dept. itself) accompany the satellite at all times, insuring that no one can get a closer look than just the outside, right through the launch.
Yes, a bit confusing and frustrating, but workable.
Regards...Bill - N6GHz
John P. Toscano wrote:
Bob McGwier wrote:
ANY aspect dealing with a satellite, software, hardware, ground stations (hardware, software, protocols, etc.), ideas, random ejaculations from a diseased mind or whatever that deals with spacecraft or ground stations are DEEMED EXPORTS when they depart a U.S. citizen and are delivered to a non-U.S. citizen. It is a nearly impossible task to abide by and one that really makes me want to throw my hands up in despair and walk away.
There are exceptions for classrooms and courses taught in U.S. university's. A person, even a non-U.S. citizen, who can pay for taking a course, may go and involve themselves in course work, even if it is dealing with the design, construction, and control of spacecraft during the course work. Some of this applies to your earlier questions but for US service academies, there are very few non-U.S. citizens in them.
Bob:
I would not dream of second-guessing you for a moment, since you are fully engaged in this stuff and I am simply an interested observer.
However, why doesn't the following quotation directly from the ITAR regulations provide the exemption we need? The quotation comes from the section that defines what are the items that are covered by ITAR:
ITAR Part 121 - The United States Munitions List
-----------------------< begin quote >-------------------------------
Category XV - Spacecraft Systems and Associated Equipment
*(a) Spacecraft, including communications satellites, remote sensing satellites, scientific satellites, research satellites, navigation satellites, experimental and multi-mission satellites.
*NOTE TO PARAGRAPH (a): Commercial communications satellites, scientific satellites, research satellites, and experimental satellites are designated as SME only when the equipment is intended for use by the armed forces of any foreign country.
-----------------------< end quote >---------------------------------
Note that SME refers to "Significant Military Equipment"
Paragraph (a) seems to cover everything and anything having to do with satellites, but the asterisk and "NOTE" attached to it seems to say that an Amateur radio satellite for use by Amateurs instead of foreign armed forces should be exempted, doesn't it?
Granted, I realize that we have already lost one argument with ITAR about our past cooperation with AMSAT-DL, but is there some compelling reason why the lawyers didn't point out this exception?
Just wondering... If I had to guess the answer myself, after looking at the horribly convoluted language of the small piece of the ITAR regulations that I have looked at, there is probably another paragraph elsewhere that effectively says, "we were just kidding when we said that it had to be used by foreign armed forces, we really mean it to cover everything"
John W0JT
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
_________________________________________________________________ Windows 7: I wanted more reliable, now it's more reliable. Wow! http://microsoft.com/windows/windows-7/default-ga.aspx?h=myidea?ocid=PID2472...
Greg, the same rules apply to Universities (even our military schools, ie. West Point el al.). This continues to be a real sore spot with University research programs on things related to satellites or any of the areas subject to ITAR. It's get especially tricky when students, which are foreign nationals, try to become involved.
But, as I keep saying, if you're involved with "munitions" controlled by ITAR and many things related to satellites are, them become familiar with the rules and follow them. If your in doubt, them become familiar with the rules and follow them.
Regards...Bill - N6GHz
Greg D. wrote:
I wonder if we could hook up with a university somewhere? Become part of their graduate program in Astro-something, even get some graduate students to help with the design and manufacture... What sort of restrictions do they have on the definition of a "student"?
Just a thought,
Greg KO6TH
Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2009 12:14:38 -0700 From: bill@hsmicrowave.com To: tosca005@tc.umn.edu CC: amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: ITAR is interesting to me
Hi John,
The completed satellite is usually exempt. This is how AO-51, as a completed satellite, went to Russia and was launched on a Dnepr. AMSAT has in the past and will in the future, apply for an export license for a satellite. It's when you try to export satellite components or technology, like the IHU, the SDX for the P3E, or engage in dialog regarding a satellites thermal performance the the AMSAT-DL folks to assist them, that you run afoul of ITAR.
There's a big different between sharing technology and components than it is to export a complete satellite for launch. Often the State Dept. will require that a representative(s) of the satellite builders (and sometimes the State Dept. itself) accompany the satellite at all times, insuring that no one can get a closer look than just the outside, right through the launch.
Yes, a bit confusing and frustrating, but workable.
Regards...Bill - N6GHz
John P. Toscano wrote:
Bob McGwier wrote:
ANY aspect dealing with a satellite, software, hardware, ground
stations
(hardware, software, protocols, etc.), ideas, random ejaculations
from a
diseased mind or whatever that deals with spacecraft or ground
stations
are DEEMED EXPORTS when they depart a U.S. citizen and are
delivered to
a non-U.S. citizen. It is a nearly impossible task to abide by and
one
that really makes me want to throw my hands up in despair and walk
away.
There are exceptions for classrooms and courses taught in U.S. university's. A person, even a non-U.S. citizen, who can pay for
taking
a course, may go and involve themselves in course work, even if it is dealing with the design, construction, and control of spacecraft
during
the course work. Some of this applies to your earlier questions
but for
US service academies, there are very few non-U.S. citizens in them.
Bob:
I would not dream of second-guessing you for a moment, since you are fully engaged in this stuff and I am simply an interested observer.
However, why doesn't the following quotation directly from the ITAR regulations provide the exemption we need? The quotation comes from
the
section that defines what are the items that are covered by ITAR:
ITAR Part 121 - The United States Munitions List
-----------------------< begin quote >-------------------------------
Category XV - Spacecraft Systems and Associated Equipment
*(a) Spacecraft, including communications satellites, remote sensing satellites, scientific satellites, research satellites, navigation satellites, experimental and multi-mission satellites.
*NOTE TO PARAGRAPH (a): Commercial communications satellites,
scientific
satellites, research satellites, and experimental satellites are designated as SME only when the equipment is intended for use by the armed forces of any foreign country.
-----------------------< end quote >---------------------------------
Note that SME refers to "Significant Military Equipment"
Paragraph (a) seems to cover everything and anything having to do with satellites, but the asterisk and "NOTE" attached to it seems to say
that
an Amateur radio satellite for use by Amateurs instead of foreign
armed
forces should be exempted, doesn't it?
Granted, I realize that we have already lost one argument with ITAR about our past cooperation with AMSAT-DL, but is there some compelling reason why the lawyers didn't point out this exception?
Just wondering... If I had to guess the answer myself, after looking at the horribly convoluted language of the small piece of the ITAR regulations that I have looked at, there is probably another paragraph elsewhere that effectively says, "we were just kidding when we said that it had to be used by foreign armed forces, we really mean it to cover everything"
John W0JT
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the
author.
Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
program!
Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
program!
Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Windows 7: I wanted more reliable, now it's more reliable. Wow! http://microsoft.com/windows/windows-7/default.aspx?h=myidea?ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_myidea:102009
Ah, so our universities can *teach* foreign nationals how to design and build everything needed to make a satellite, we just can't engage them in the "research of satellites"? I give up.
Greg KO6TH
Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2009 17:38:12 -0700 From: bill@hsmicrowave.com To: ko6th_greg@hotmail.com CC: tosca005@tc.umn.edu; amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Re: ITAR is interesting to me
Greg, the same rules apply to Universities (even our military schools, ie. West Point el al.). This continues to be a real sore spot with University research programs on things related to satellites or any of the areas subject to ITAR. It's get especially tricky when students, which are foreign nationals, try to become involved.
But, as I keep saying, if you're involved with "munitions" controlled by ITAR and many things related to satellites are, them become familiar with the rules and follow them. If your in doubt, them become familiar with the rules and follow them.
Regards...Bill - N6GHz
Greg D. wrote:
I wonder if we could hook up with a university somewhere? Become part of their graduate program in Astro-something, even get some graduate students to help with the design and manufacture... What sort of restrictions do they have on the definition of a "student"?
Just a thought,
Greg KO6TH
Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2009 12:14:38 -0700 From: bill@hsmicrowave.com To: tosca005@tc.umn.edu CC: amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: ITAR is interesting to me
Hi John,
The completed satellite is usually exempt. This is how AO-51, as a completed satellite, went to Russia and was launched on a Dnepr. AMSAT has in the past and will in the future, apply for an export license for a satellite. It's when you try to export satellite components or technology, like the IHU, the SDX for the P3E, or engage in dialog regarding a satellites thermal performance the the AMSAT-DL folks to assist them, that you run afoul of ITAR.
There's a big different between sharing technology and components than it is to export a complete satellite for launch. Often the State Dept. will require that a representative(s) of the satellite builders (and sometimes the State Dept. itself) accompany the satellite at all times, insuring that no one can get a closer look than just the outside, right through the launch.
Yes, a bit confusing and frustrating, but workable.
Regards...Bill - N6GHz
John P. Toscano wrote:
Bob McGwier wrote:
ANY aspect dealing with a satellite, software, hardware, ground
stations
(hardware, software, protocols, etc.), ideas, random ejaculations
from a
diseased mind or whatever that deals with spacecraft or ground
stations
are DEEMED EXPORTS when they depart a U.S. citizen and are
delivered to
a non-U.S. citizen. It is a nearly impossible task to abide by and
one
that really makes me want to throw my hands up in despair and walk
away.
There are exceptions for classrooms and courses taught in U.S. university's. A person, even a non-U.S. citizen, who can pay for
taking
a course, may go and involve themselves in course work, even if it is dealing with the design, construction, and control of spacecraft
during
the course work. Some of this applies to your earlier questions
but for
US service academies, there are very few non-U.S. citizens in them.
Bob:
I would not dream of second-guessing you for a moment, since you are fully engaged in this stuff and I am simply an interested observer.
However, why doesn't the following quotation directly from the ITAR regulations provide the exemption we need? The quotation comes from
the
section that defines what are the items that are covered by ITAR:
ITAR Part 121 - The United States Munitions List
-----------------------< begin quote >-------------------------------
Category XV - Spacecraft Systems and Associated Equipment
*(a) Spacecraft, including communications satellites, remote sensing satellites, scientific satellites, research satellites, navigation satellites, experimental and multi-mission satellites.
*NOTE TO PARAGRAPH (a): Commercial communications satellites,
scientific
satellites, research satellites, and experimental satellites are designated as SME only when the equipment is intended for use by the armed forces of any foreign country.
-----------------------< end quote >---------------------------------
Note that SME refers to "Significant Military Equipment"
Paragraph (a) seems to cover everything and anything having to do with satellites, but the asterisk and "NOTE" attached to it seems to say
that
an Amateur radio satellite for use by Amateurs instead of foreign
armed
forces should be exempted, doesn't it?
Granted, I realize that we have already lost one argument with ITAR about our past cooperation with AMSAT-DL, but is there some compelling reason why the lawyers didn't point out this exception?
Just wondering... If I had to guess the answer myself, after looking at the horribly convoluted language of the small piece of the ITAR regulations that I have looked at, there is probably another paragraph elsewhere that effectively says, "we were just kidding when we said that it had to be used by foreign armed forces, we really mean it to cover everything"
John W0JT
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On Sun, Oct 25, 2009 at 8:38 PM, Bill Ress bill@hsmicrowave.com wrote: This continues to be a real sore spot with
University research programs on things related to satellites or any of the areas subject to ITAR. It's get especially tricky when students, which are foreign nationals, try to become involved.
Greg D. wrote:
I wonder if we could hook up with a university somewhere? Become part of their graduate program in Astro-something, even get some graduate students to help with the design and manufacture... What sort of restrictions do they have on the definition of a "student"?
Just a thought,
Greg KO6TH
Hi, I fall into that category (at present) - and did not have any issue with my affiliation with AMU and recent contact with JPL on education matters etc. I beg to differ with the doom and gloom everywhere I see at AMSAT, Bill.
Point: If you are studying at US School, you are either a resident of the USA or a visitor. All F-1, J-1 Visa holders are visitors. And they should not be involved in any high technology subjects that are not within the purview of a published syllabus by their academic institution. Their academic advisors would need to arrange which technologies they work with, and what restrictions they will fall under.
* I don't think these students would be able to find time to join an AMSAT hobby, but if so, why not, as long as they don't go near a satellite tech project and stay limited to user mode.
Point: If you are a US Lawful Permanent Resident, ITAR applies and you are OK Point: If you are a Citizen, ITAR applies and you are OK Point: If you are a foreign citizen: please don't apply for any ITAR job, and be *very* careful about what you get your hands on while in the US borders.
Note: Universities may be able to obtain permission to incorporate students into ITAR research areas, but that is probably because they have a good reason to do so (academic campus, partnerships and so on). This should have nothing to do with AMSAT ever.
What is left is that if we are (amsat-na) limited to sourcing talent from USA citizens and USA residents, what is the problem here? To be ITAR compliant, make a self-certification and have it reviewed by the organisation wanting to work with you.
If it was the case that we could not find talent in the USA (hello...) then I would be worried. Besides, I'm surprised that you are not seeming to take any account of the numerous foreign students who come to the US and obtain legal residency after they graduate, and then they stay as an LPR for about 5 years, during which they are ITAR compliant and can work with us.
So, why worry ? http://mae.pennnet.com/display_article/366112/32/ARTCL/none/EXECW/1/ITAR-vio...
If any AMSAT-xx body wants to help AMSAT-NA that is of course allowed and welcome under ITAR, through a TAA; what is wrong with that ? They can choose to divulge their technology or not, or give cash or not, as long as the payload flies. For AMSAT-xx wanting help from AMSAT-NA, then I don't see why they need to be given access to our tech, keeping in mind the current ITAR regime, unless it was a for a joint development where they have something, we have something. Then again the big question is "where is the integration" taking place ? In the US or abroad ?
Still the big question (for me) is can AMSAT encourage more to join and volunteer/donate so that US ITAR folks (citizens and LPR) can fly more missions !
Or, better still, is there a job market for ITAR compliant folks who want to design spacecraft ?
Hi Samudra,
No, it's not a doom and gloom attitude anymore within AMSAT-NA. We understand more today than we did two years ago. It's just that most AMSAT-NA satellite builders were unaware of ITAR issues related to satellites, and just what can and cannot be done to be compliant. Export controlled munitions under ITAR is not something an Amateur Radio satellite builder would normally ever consider applies to them. AMSAT-NA is working to create a compliance training program for its satellite builders (NOT general AMSAT-NA members).
So like any law, in any country, it needs to be first understood, its applicability considered and if it applies, then complied with.
But you being a legal permanent resident can be involved with AMSAT-NA satellite projects. Foreign nationals cannot unless permitted by a State Department approved agreement such as a TAA (Technical Assistance Agreement).
But ALL US citizens and foreign permanent residents must be very careful about the more sinister part of ITAR called DEEMED EXPORTS. That's where you discuss certain ITAR controlled satellite hardware or technology issues with a foreign national, with which you do not not have a State Department technical exchange agreement, whether this foreign national is in this country or you contact them by phone, internet or other forms of communication. So while you can work on an AMSAT-NA satellite project that has aspects controlled by ITAR, because you are a legal permanent resident, you can't email your parents, if they are foreign nationals, to discuss those ITAR restricted subjects, whether they are in the US or a foreign country. If you do, it is "deemed to be exported" without ITAR approval and serious penalties can result.
As stated earlier, ITAR applies equally to universities, NASA, members of the military except when specific State Department exemptions/agreements are in place.
Regards...Bill - N6GHz
Samudra Haque wrote:
On Sun, Oct 25, 2009 at 8:38 PM, Bill Ress bill@hsmicrowave.com wrote: This continues to be a real sore spot with
University research programs on things related to satellites or any of the areas subject to ITAR. It's get especially tricky when students, which are foreign nationals, try to become involved.
Greg D. wrote:
I wonder if we could hook up with a university somewhere? Become part of their graduate program in Astro-something, even get some graduate students to help with the design and manufacture... What sort of restrictions do they have on the definition of a "student"?
Just a thought,
Greg KO6TH
Hi, I fall into that category (at present) - and did not have any issue with my affiliation with AMU and recent contact with JPL on education matters etc. I beg to differ with the doom and gloom everywhere I see at AMSAT, Bill.
Point: If you are studying at US School, you are either a resident of the USA or a visitor. All F-1, J-1 Visa holders are visitors. And they should not be involved in any high technology subjects that are not within the purview of a published syllabus by their academic institution. Their academic advisors would need to arrange which technologies they work with, and what restrictions they will fall under.
- I don't think these students would be able to find time to join an
AMSAT hobby, but if so, why not, as long as they don't go near a satellite tech project and stay limited to user mode.
Point: If you are a US Lawful Permanent Resident, ITAR applies and you are OK Point: If you are a Citizen, ITAR applies and you are OK Point: If you are a foreign citizen: please don't apply for any ITAR job, and be *very* careful about what you get your hands on while in the US borders.
Note: Universities may be able to obtain permission to incorporate students into ITAR research areas, but that is probably because they have a good reason to do so (academic campus, partnerships and so on). This should have nothing to do with AMSAT ever.
What is left is that if we are (amsat-na) limited to sourcing talent from USA citizens and USA residents, what is the problem here? To be ITAR compliant, make a self-certification and have it reviewed by the organisation wanting to work with you.
If it was the case that we could not find talent in the USA (hello...) then I would be worried. Besides, I'm surprised that you are not seeming to take any account of the numerous foreign students who come to the US and obtain legal residency after they graduate, and then they stay as an LPR for about 5 years, during which they are ITAR compliant and can work with us.
So, why worry ? http://mae.pennnet.com/display_article/366112/32/ARTCL/none/EXECW/1/ITAR-vio...
If any AMSAT-xx body wants to help AMSAT-NA that is of course allowed and welcome under ITAR, through a TAA; what is wrong with that ? They can choose to divulge their technology or not, or give cash or not, as long as the payload flies. For AMSAT-xx wanting help from AMSAT-NA, then I don't see why they need to be given access to our tech, keeping in mind the current ITAR regime, unless it was a for a joint development where they have something, we have something. Then again the big question is "where is the integration" taking place ? In the US or abroad ?
Still the big question (for me) is can AMSAT encourage more to join and volunteer/donate so that US ITAR folks (citizens and LPR) can fly more missions !
Or, better still, is there a job market for ITAR compliant folks who want to design spacecraft ?
On Mon, Oct 26, 2009 at 5:24 PM, Bill Ress bill@hsmicrowave.com wrote:
But ALL US citizens and foreign permanent residents must be very careful about the more sinister part of ITAR called DEEMED EXPORTS. That's where you discuss certain ITAR controlled satellite hardware or technology issues with a foreign national, with which you do not not have a State Department technical exchange agreement, whether this foreign national is in this country or you contact them by phone, internet or other forms of communication. So while you can work on an AMSAT-NA satellite project that has aspects controlled by ITAR, because you are a legal permanent resident, you can't email your parents, if they are foreign nationals, to discuss those ITAR restricted subjects, whether they are in the US or a foreign country. If you do, it is "deemed to be exported" without ITAR approval and serious penalties can result.
Yes, I usually take care to divide my correspondence amongst the particular groups I am working with, and this is also the basis in which I recently proposed moving to (a) moderated forum (such as phpBB) or (b) sub-dividing the amsat-bb list into amsat-engineering (ITAR restricted) and amsat-user (open to all) lists. If moderation is not possible, practical or simply open to all is the order of the day, at least we can move the ITAR stuff (development centric stuff) to a closed list format and ensure what is said and done is always in compliance (i.e., track of who say what and documents are marked restricted for circulation) etc.
The AMSAT-BB is the real funny way of becoming ITAR compliant (while we are under ITAR, lets not forget we have responsibilities) so, until the day that ITAR is not applicable to us, AMSAT-BB should be restricted to open questions, user questions etc. no blanket mail concerning tech details from the US side. However, for the specific engineering stuff I suggest that whoever administers the list should consider a security protocol and a secure file area for this compliance issue, hopefully not on the same machine as amsat-bb to avoid any chance of overlap.
Sorry if I ruffle a few feathers here, this an important issue for me too !
Samudra, N3RDX
Hi Samudra,
Hey - don't worry about ruffling feathers. The more we discuss it, the better understood ITAR will be.
Regards...Bill - N6GHz
Samudra Haque wrote:
On Mon, Oct 26, 2009 at 5:24 PM, Bill Ress bill@hsmicrowave.com wrote:
But ALL US citizens and foreign permanent residents must be very careful about the more sinister part of ITAR called DEEMED EXPORTS. That's where you discuss certain ITAR controlled satellite hardware or technology issues with a foreign national, with which you do not not have a State Department technical exchange agreement, whether this foreign national is in this country or you contact them by phone, internet or other forms of communication. So while you can work on an AMSAT-NA satellite project that has aspects controlled by ITAR, because you are a legal permanent resident, you can't email your parents, if they are foreign nationals, to discuss those ITAR restricted subjects, whether they are in the US or a foreign country. If you do, it is "deemed to be exported" without ITAR approval and serious penalties can result.
Yes, I usually take care to divide my correspondence amongst the particular groups I am working with, and this is also the basis in which I recently proposed moving to (a) moderated forum (such as phpBB) or (b) sub-dividing the amsat-bb list into amsat-engineering (ITAR restricted) and amsat-user (open to all) lists. If moderation is not possible, practical or simply open to all is the order of the day, at least we can move the ITAR stuff (development centric stuff) to a closed list format and ensure what is said and done is always in compliance (i.e., track of who say what and documents are marked restricted for circulation) etc.
The AMSAT-BB is the real funny way of becoming ITAR compliant (while we are under ITAR, lets not forget we have responsibilities) so, until the day that ITAR is not applicable to us, AMSAT-BB should be restricted to open questions, user questions etc. no blanket mail concerning tech details from the US side. However, for the specific engineering stuff I suggest that whoever administers the list should consider a security protocol and a secure file area for this compliance issue, hopefully not on the same machine as amsat-bb to avoid any chance of overlap.
Sorry if I ruffle a few feathers here, this an important issue for me too !
Samudra, N3RDX
I don't think there is much to understand. We have been told it is impossible to follow the logically inconsistent rules. You must subject yourself or your group to the tyranny of the unelected bureaucrat.
Preventing me from talking to amateur radio buddies about amateur radio satellites with no commercial military implications for the satellite feels a lot like an abridgment of the bill of rights like free speech.
Phil Karn sued and WON his suit on the abridgment of free speech rights on something much less clear cut, the free release of DES source code.
I have to say I am personally unable to do what phil did. Strictly financial reasons. Amsat is also in this financial legal strait jacket.
It sucks would be my overall technical assessment.
Bob
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
-----Original Message----- From: Bill Ress bill@hsmicrowave.com Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 15:47:16 To: Samudra Haquesamudra.haque@gmail.com Cc: amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Hopefully - Some ITAR Clarifications.
Hi Samudra,
Hey - don't worry about ruffling feathers. The more we discuss it, the better understood ITAR will be.
Regards...Bill - N6GHz
Samudra Haque wrote:
On Mon, Oct 26, 2009 at 5:24 PM, Bill Ress bill@hsmicrowave.com wrote:
But ALL US citizens and foreign permanent residents must be very careful about the more sinister part of ITAR called DEEMED EXPORTS. That's where you discuss certain ITAR controlled satellite hardware or technology issues with a foreign national, with which you do not not have a State Department technical exchange agreement, whether this foreign national is in this country or you contact them by phone, internet or other forms of communication. So while you can work on an AMSAT-NA satellite project that has aspects controlled by ITAR, because you are a legal permanent resident, you can't email your parents, if they are foreign nationals, to discuss those ITAR restricted subjects, whether they are in the US or a foreign country. If you do, it is "deemed to be exported" without ITAR approval and serious penalties can result.
Yes, I usually take care to divide my correspondence amongst the particular groups I am working with, and this is also the basis in which I recently proposed moving to (a) moderated forum (such as phpBB) or (b) sub-dividing the amsat-bb list into amsat-engineering (ITAR restricted) and amsat-user (open to all) lists. If moderation is not possible, practical or simply open to all is the order of the day, at least we can move the ITAR stuff (development centric stuff) to a closed list format and ensure what is said and done is always in compliance (i.e., track of who say what and documents are marked restricted for circulation) etc.
The AMSAT-BB is the real funny way of becoming ITAR compliant (while we are under ITAR, lets not forget we have responsibilities) so, until the day that ITAR is not applicable to us, AMSAT-BB should be restricted to open questions, user questions etc. no blanket mail concerning tech details from the US side. However, for the specific engineering stuff I suggest that whoever administers the list should consider a security protocol and a secure file area for this compliance issue, hopefully not on the same machine as amsat-bb to avoid any chance of overlap.
Sorry if I ruffle a few feathers here, this an important issue for me too !
Samudra, N3RDX
_______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Because we asked that we be treated in exactly the manner you described and were rebuffed.
Bob
John P. Toscano wrote:
Bob McGwier wrote:
ANY aspect dealing with a satellite, software, hardware, ground stations (hardware, software, protocols, etc.), ideas, random ejaculations from a diseased mind or whatever that deals with spacecraft or ground stations are DEEMED EXPORTS when they depart a U.S. citizen and are delivered to a non-U.S. citizen. It is a nearly impossible task to abide by and one that really makes me want to throw my hands up in despair and walk away.
There are exceptions for classrooms and courses taught in U.S. university's. A person, even a non-U.S. citizen, who can pay for taking a course, may go and involve themselves in course work, even if it is dealing with the design, construction, and control of spacecraft during the course work. Some of this applies to your earlier questions but for US service academies, there are very few non-U.S. citizens in them.
Bob:
I would not dream of second-guessing you for a moment, since you are fully engaged in this stuff and I am simply an interested observer.
However, why doesn't the following quotation directly from the ITAR regulations provide the exemption we need? The quotation comes from the section that defines what are the items that are covered by ITAR:
ITAR Part 121 - The United States Munitions List
-----------------------< begin quote >-------------------------------
Category XV - Spacecraft Systems and Associated Equipment
*(a) Spacecraft, including communications satellites, remote sensing satellites, scientific satellites, research satellites, navigation satellites, experimental and multi-mission satellites.
*NOTE TO PARAGRAPH (a): Commercial communications satellites, scientific satellites, research satellites, and experimental satellites are designated as SME only when the equipment is intended for use by the armed forces of any foreign country.
-----------------------< end quote >---------------------------------
Note that SME refers to "Significant Military Equipment"
Paragraph (a) seems to cover everything and anything having to do with satellites, but the asterisk and "NOTE" attached to it seems to say that an Amateur radio satellite for use by Amateurs instead of foreign armed forces should be exempted, doesn't it?
Granted, I realize that we have already lost one argument with ITAR about our past cooperation with AMSAT-DL, but is there some compelling reason why the lawyers didn't point out this exception?
Just wondering... If I had to guess the answer myself, after looking at the horribly convoluted language of the small piece of the ITAR regulations that I have looked at, there is probably another paragraph elsewhere that effectively says, "we were just kidding when we said that it had to be used by foreign armed forces, we really mean it to cover everything"
John W0JT
participants (8)
-
Bill Ress -
Bob McGwier -
Greg D. -
Joel Black -
John P. Toscano -
k0vty＠juno.com -
rwmcgwier＠gmail.com
-
Samudra Haque