Re: Wallops Launching 12 Cubesats Tuesday 7:30 PM
Then why are those cubesats using amateur frequencies?
Dick G4BBH
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2013 17:37:06 -0600 From: Stefan Wagener wageners@gmail.com To: Robert Bruninga bruninga@usna.edu Cc: AMSAT BB amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Wallops Launching 12 Cubesats Tuesday 7:30 PM Message-ID: CAKu8kHDd8cKL=S2h8d7pXpDm3BK0OjOPW3=NE-Uf2HaKEh9JEA@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
Very simple reason.
None of these cubesat developers has made any significant attempt to rally the amateur radio satellite community. In contrast, Funcube has a great community PR "machine" and we are all very excited for them.
At the end you get what you ask for.
Stefan, VE4NSA
Well,
because their are designed and operated by students and teachers with a valid ham radio licence!
On Wed, Nov 20, 2013 at 1:42 AM, Richard Ferryman g4bbh@btinternet.comwrote:
Then why are those cubesats using amateur frequencies?
Dick G4BBH
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2013 17:37:06 -0600
From: Stefan Wagener wageners@gmail.com
To: Robert Bruninga bruninga@usna.edu Cc: AMSAT BB amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Wallops Launching 12 Cubesats Tuesday 7:30 PM Message-ID: CAKu8kHDd8cKL=S2h8d7pXpDm3BK0OjOPW3=NE-Uf2HaKEh9JEA@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
Very simple reason.
None of these cubesat developers has made any significant attempt to rally the amateur radio satellite community. In contrast, Funcube has a great community PR "machine" and we are all very excited for them.
At the end you get what you ask for.
Stefan, VE4NSA
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
We are hearing some interesting things from CAPE, one of the Cubesats from Wallops. We are hearing 1 minute AX.25 telemetry, and we have heard two Voice tests, and it has a CW message. All three modes in a Cubesat and on the APRS 145.825 downlink... neat. The voice might be DSB? And we are monitoiring in FM.
We haven't copied the AX.25 because all our primary receivers are monitoring for DRAGONSAT on other frequency.
-----Original Messages-----
because they are designed and operated by students and teachers with a
valid ham radio licence!
Then why are those cubesats using amateur frequencies?
None of these cubesat developers has made any significant attempt to rally the amateur radio satellite community. In contrast, Funcube has a great community PR "machine" and we are all very excited for them.
One thing we learned in bureaucrat school is that jumping to conclusions is not a healthy exercise. :-)
FCC licensed most of the new cubes as experimental stations and not as amateur stations. Experimental stations may be assigned to any frequency, provided they do not cause harmful interference to stations operating in accordance with the ITU radio regulations. See RR Article 27 and 47 CFR Part 5.
These experimental stations are not operating in the amateur-satellite service, only sharing the bands on a secondary basis. They are permitted to communicate only with stations listed on their license, so it would be inappropriate for them to seek help from amateurs, though amateurs may certainly listen. Note that experimental stations may encrypt their transmissions.
Some of the satellites, such as TJ3SAT, and some others, are amateur stations! Sure would be good for them to make a noise here on BB!! (HINT!)
I hope this helps.
73, art….. W4ART Arlington VA
On 20-Nov-2013, at 07:56 AM, Stefan Wagener wageners@gmail.com wrote:
Well,
because their are designed and operated by students and teachers with a valid ham radio licence!
On Wed, Nov 20, 2013 at 1:42 AM, Richard Ferryman g4bbh@btinternet.comwrote:
Then why are those cubesats using amateur frequencies?
Dick G4BBH
Hi Art,
Now I'm a little confused by your comment that most Cubesats are licensed as experimental. On yesterdays Minotaur launch, 17 Cubesats are operated by Amateurs and were coordinated through the IARU.
Regards...Bill - N6GHz
On 11/20/2013 2:50 PM, Arthur Feller wrote:
One thing we learned in bureaucrat school is that jumping to conclusions is not a healthy exercise. :-)
FCC licensed most of the new cubes as experimental stations and not as amateur stations. Experimental stations may be assigned to any frequency, provided they do not cause harmful interference to stations operating in accordance with the ITU radio regulations. See RR Article 27 and 47 CFR Part 5.
These experimental stations are not operating in the amateur-satellite service, only sharing the bands on a secondary basis. They are permitted to communicate only with stations listed on their license, so it would be inappropriate for them to seek help from amateurs, though amateurs may certainly listen. Note that experimental stations may encrypt their transmissions.
Some of the satellites, such as TJ3SAT, and some others, are amateur stations! Sure would be good for them to make a noise here on BB!! (HINT!)
I hope this helps.
73, art….. W4ART Arlington VA
On 20-Nov-2013, at 07:56 AM, Stefan Wagener wageners@gmail.com wrote:
Well,
because their are designed and operated by students and teachers with a valid ham radio licence!
On Wed, Nov 20, 2013 at 1:42 AM, Richard Ferryman g4bbh@btinternet.comwrote:
Then why are those cubesats using amateur frequencies?
Dick G4BBH
http://afeller.us
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Hi, Bill,
By special arrangement earlier this year, IARU agreed to provide coordination service for experimental stations on an temporary basis. Many of the experimental station operators are also licensed amateurs, however that has no bearing on experimental station operation.
More on this in the 2013 AMSAT Technical Symposium Proceedings. See the article by Hans, ZS6AKV.
73, art….. W4ART Arlington VA
On 20-Nov-2013, at 06:11 PM, Bill Ress bill@hsmicrowave.com wrote:
Hi Art,
Now I'm a little confused by your comment that most Cubesats are licensed as experimental. On yesterdays Minotaur launch, 17 Cubesats are operated by Amateurs and were coordinated through the IARU.
Regards...Bill - N6GHz
On 11/20/2013 2:50 PM, Arthur Feller wrote:
One thing we learned in bureaucrat school is that jumping to conclusions is not a healthy exercise. :-)
FCC licensed most of the new cubes as experimental stations and not as amateur stations. Experimental stations may be assigned to any frequency, provided they do not cause harmful interference to stations operating in accordance with the ITU radio regulations. See RR Article 27 and 47 CFR Part 5.
These experimental stations are not operating in the amateur-satellite service, only sharing the bands on a secondary basis. They are permitted to communicate only with stations listed on their license, so it would be inappropriate for them to seek help from amateurs, though amateurs may certainly listen. Note that experimental stations may encrypt their transmissions.
Some of the satellites, such as TJ3SAT, and some others, are amateur stations! Sure would be good for them to make a noise here on BB!! (HINT!)
I hope this helps.
73, art….. W4ART Arlington VA
On 20-Nov-2013, at 07:56 AM, Stefan Wagener wageners@gmail.com wrote:
Well,
because their are designed and operated by students and teachers with a valid ham radio licence!
On Wed, Nov 20, 2013 at 1:42 AM, Richard Ferryman g4bbh@btinternet.comwrote:
Then why are those cubesats using amateur frequencies?
Dick G4BBH
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Human kindness has never weakened the stamina or softened the fiber of a free people. A nation does not have to be cruel to be tough. -Franklin D. Roosevelt, 32nd US President (1882-1945)
Art,
Aaah! I wasn't aware of that. Thanks for clearing it for me anyway. Can you point me to the FCC web link where I can understand (apply) for an experimental license for a Cubesat in the Amateur bands.
Regards...Bill - N6GHz
On 11/20/2013 4:29 PM, Arthur Feller wrote:
Hi, Bill,
By special arrangement earlier this year, IARU agreed to provide coordination service for experimental stations on an temporary basis. Many of the experimental station operators are also licensed amateurs, however that has no bearing on experimental station operation.
More on this in the 2013 AMSAT Technical Symposium Proceedings. See the article by Hans, ZS6AKV.
73, art….. W4ART Arlington VA
On 20-Nov-2013, at 06:11 PM, Bill Ress <bill@hsmicrowave.com mailto:bill@hsmicrowave.com> wrote:
Hi Art,
Now I'm a little confused by your comment that most Cubesats are licensed as experimental. On yesterdays Minotaur launch, 17 Cubesats are operated by Amateurs and were coordinated through the IARU.
Regards...Bill - N6GHz
On 11/20/2013 2:50 PM, Arthur Feller wrote:
One thing we learned in bureaucrat school is that jumping to conclusions is not a healthy exercise. :-)
FCC licensed most of the new cubes as experimental stations and not as amateur stations. Experimental stations may be assigned to any frequency, provided they do not cause harmful interference to stations operating in accordance with the ITU radio regulations. See RR Article 27 and 47 CFR Part 5.
These experimental stations are not operating in the amateur-satellite service, only sharing the bands on a secondary basis. They are permitted to communicate only with stations listed on their license, so it would be inappropriate for them to seek help from amateurs, though amateurs may certainly listen. Note that experimental stations may encrypt their transmissions.
Some of the satellites, such as TJ3SAT, and some others, are amateur stations! Sure would be good for them to make a noise here on BB!! (HINT!)
I hope this helps.
73, art….. W4ART Arlington VA
On 20-Nov-2013, at 07:56 AM, Stefan Wagener <wageners@gmail.com mailto:wageners@gmail.com> wrote:
Well,
because their are designed and operated by students and teachers with a valid ham radio licence!
On Wed, Nov 20, 2013 at 1:42 AM, Richard Ferryman <g4bbh@btinternet.com mailto:g4bbh@btinternet.com>wrote:
Then why are those cubesats using amateur frequencies?
Dick G4BBH
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org mailto:AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org mailto:AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Human kindness has never weakened the stamina or softened the fiber of a free people. A nation does not have to be cruel to be tough. -Franklin D. Roosevelt, 32nd US President (1882-1945)
Hi, Bill,
Go to http://www.fcc.gov and search for “experimental.” Strongly suggest reading Part 5 of the FCC rules first. (See: http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/browse/collectionCfr.action?collectionCode=CFR&.... You may have to wait for Title 47 (Telecommunications) to be added to the 2013 edition, then go to Part 5.) Make sure you have the version revised this year.
Some thoughts for you.
To the good: Experimental stations can be assigned to any frequency. Experimental stations may be licensed for all the purposes listed in Part 5 of the FCC Rules and Regulations. Commercial ideas can be tried out. Operators may be paid. Encryption may be used. Applications can be made online. The cost is somewhere around $100.
To the bad: Operation is secondary to EVERYTHING. In case of causing harmful interference, the experimental station is required to cure the problem, which usually means being ordered to shut down immediately with no recourse. In case of suffering harmful interference, it must be tolerated. (Not a good options for significant investments in time and money.) Communication is normally permitted only with stations listed on the license. Communication with regularly licensed stations (including amateur) is forbidden. International communication is normally forbidden, unless administrations made arrangements in advance. International coordination is usually required.
One more thing on sharing bands allocated to the amateur-satellite service. FCC now requires IARU coordination, though they didn’t give IARU notice. (This story requires several 807’s.) To help out folks who had already built projects thinking (erroneously) that they could fly as amateur, IARU worked out an arrangement to provide coordination service on a TEMPORARY basis. Coordination requested in the 144-146 MHz will no longer be provided for experimental stations after mid 2014. See 2013 AMSAT Technical Symposium Proceedings.
IMHO, appropriate radiocommunication services and frequency allocations are already available, can provide international status, and should be applied for, rather than amateur-satellite service frequencies. Fees will be required, but FCC might waive their fees with a justified request. ITU fees are normally required, except for amateur stations.
I hope this helps.
73, art….. W4ART Arlington VA
On 20-Nov-2013, at 10:34 PM, Bill Ress bill@hsmicrowave.com wrote:
Art,
Aaah! I wasn't aware of that. Thanks for clearing it for me anyway. Can you point me to the FCC web link where I can understand (apply) for an experimental license for a Cubesat in the Amateur bands.
Regards...Bill - N6GHz
On 11/20/2013 4:29 PM, Arthur Feller wrote:
Hi, Bill,
By special arrangement earlier this year, IARU agreed to provide coordination service for experimental stations on an temporary basis. Many of the experimental station operators are also licensed amateurs, however that has no bearing on experimental station operation.
More on this in the 2013 AMSAT Technical Symposium Proceedings. See the article by Hans, ZS6AKV.
73, art….. W4ART Arlington VA
On 20-Nov-2013, at 06:11 PM, Bill Ress bill@hsmicrowave.com wrote:
Hi Art,
Now I'm a little confused by your comment that most Cubesats are licensed as experimental. On yesterdays Minotaur launch, 17 Cubesats are operated by Amateurs and were coordinated through the IARU.
Regards...Bill - N6GHz
On 11/20/2013 2:50 PM, Arthur Feller wrote:
One thing we learned in bureaucrat school is that jumping to conclusions is not a healthy exercise. :-)
FCC licensed most of the new cubes as experimental stations and not as amateur stations. Experimental stations may be assigned to any frequency, provided they do not cause harmful interference to stations operating in accordance with the ITU radio regulations. See RR Article 27 and 47 CFR Part 5.
These experimental stations are not operating in the amateur-satellite service, only sharing the bands on a secondary basis. They are permitted to communicate only with stations listed on their license, so it would be inappropriate for them to seek help from amateurs, though amateurs may certainly listen. Note that experimental stations may encrypt their transmissions.
Some of the satellites, such as TJ3SAT, and some others, are amateur stations! Sure would be good for them to make a noise here on BB!! (HINT!)
I hope this helps.
73, art….. W4ART Arlington VA
On 20-Nov-2013, at 07:56 AM, Stefan Wagener wageners@gmail.com wrote:
Well,
because their are designed and operated by students and teachers with a valid ham radio licence!
On Wed, Nov 20, 2013 at 1:42 AM, Richard Ferryman g4bbh@btinternet.comwrote:
Then why are those cubesats using amateur frequencies?
Dick G4BBH
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Human kindness has never weakened the stamina or softened the fiber of a free people. A nation does not have to be cruel to be tough. -Franklin D. Roosevelt, 32nd US President (1882-1945)
Human kindness has never weakened the stamina or softened the fiber of a free people. A nation does not have to be cruel to be tough. -Franklin D. Roosevelt, 32nd US President (1882-1945)
Art,
Very helpful indeed. Thanks for taking the time to clarify for me at least - a subject that has at times been both confusing and contentious.
Regards...Bill - N6GHz
On 11/20/2013 8:19 PM, Arthur Feller wrote:
Hi, Bill,
Go to http://www.fcc.gov and search for “experimental.” Strongly suggest reading Part 5 of the FCC rules first. (See: http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/browse/collectionCfr.action?collectionCode=CFR&.... You may have to wait for Title 47 (Telecommunications) to be added to the 2013 edition, then go to Part 5.) Make sure you have the version revised this year.
Some thoughts for you.
To the good: Experimental stations can be assigned to any frequency. Experimental stations may be licensed for all the purposes listed in Part 5 of the FCC Rules and Regulations. Commercial ideas can be tried out. Operators may be paid. Encryption may be used. Applications can be made online. The cost is somewhere around $100.
To the bad: Operation is secondary to EVERYTHING. In case of causing harmful interference, the experimental station is required to cure the problem, which usually means being ordered to shut down immediately with no recourse. In case of suffering harmful interference, it must be tolerated. (Not a good options for significant investments in time and money.) Communication is normally permitted only with stations listed on the license. Communication with regularly licensed stations (including amateur) is forbidden. International communication is normally forbidden, unless administrations made arrangements in advance. International coordination is usually required.
One more thing on sharing bands allocated to the amateur-satellite service. FCC now requires IARU coordination, though they didn’t give IARU notice. (This story requires several 807’s.) To help out folks who had already built projects thinking (erroneously) that they could fly as amateur, IARU worked out an arrangement to provide coordination service on a TEMPORARY basis. Coordination requested in the 144-146 MHz will no longer be provided for experimental stations after mid 2014. See 2013 AMSAT Technical Symposium Proceedings.
IMHO, appropriate radiocommunication services and frequency allocations are already available, can provide international status, and should be applied for, rather than amateur-satellite service frequencies. Fees will be required, but FCC might waive their fees with a justified request. ITU fees are normally required, except for amateur stations.
I hope this helps.
73, art….. W4ART Arlington VA
On 20-Nov-2013, at 10:34 PM, Bill Ress <bill@hsmicrowave.com mailto:bill@hsmicrowave.com> wrote:
Art,
Aaah! I wasn't aware of that. Thanks for clearing it for me anyway. Can you point me to the FCC web link where I can understand (apply) for an experimental license for a Cubesat in the Amateur bands.
Regards...Bill - N6GHz
On 11/20/2013 4:29 PM, Arthur Feller wrote:
Hi, Bill,
By special arrangement earlier this year, IARU agreed to provide coordination service for experimental stations on an temporary basis. Many of the experimental station operators are also licensed amateurs, however that has no bearing on experimental station operation.
More on this in the 2013 AMSAT Technical Symposium Proceedings. See the article by Hans, ZS6AKV.
73, art….. W4ART Arlington VA
On 20-Nov-2013, at 06:11 PM, Bill Ress <bill@hsmicrowave.com mailto:bill@hsmicrowave.com> wrote:
Hi Art,
Now I'm a little confused by your comment that most Cubesats are licensed as experimental. On yesterdays Minotaur launch, 17 Cubesats are operated by Amateurs and were coordinated through the IARU.
Regards...Bill - N6GHz
On 11/20/2013 2:50 PM, Arthur Feller wrote:
One thing we learned in bureaucrat school is that jumping to conclusions is not a healthy exercise. :-)
FCC licensed most of the new cubes as experimental stations and not as amateur stations. Experimental stations may be assigned to any frequency, provided they do not cause harmful interference to stations operating in accordance with the ITU radio regulations. See RR Article 27 and 47 CFR Part 5.
These experimental stations are not operating in the amateur-satellite service, only sharing the bands on a secondary basis. They are permitted to communicate only with stations listed on their license, so it would be inappropriate for them to seek help from amateurs, though amateurs may certainly listen. Note that experimental stations may encrypt their transmissions.
Some of the satellites, such as TJ3SAT, and some others, are amateur stations! Sure would be good for them to make a noise here on BB!! (HINT!)
I hope this helps.
73, art….. W4ART Arlington VA
On 20-Nov-2013, at 07:56 AM, Stefan Wagener <wageners@gmail.com mailto:wageners@gmail.com> wrote:
Well,
because their are designed and operated by students and teachers with a valid ham radio licence!
On Wed, Nov 20, 2013 at 1:42 AM, Richard Ferryman <g4bbh@btinternet.com mailto:g4bbh@btinternet.com>wrote:
> Then why are those cubesats using amateur frequencies? > > Dick G4BBH
http://afeller.us http://afeller.us/
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org mailto:AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org mailto:AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Human kindness has never weakened the stamina or softened the fiber of a free people. A nation does not have to be cruel to be tough. -Franklin D. Roosevelt, 32nd US President (1882-1945)
*Human kindness has never weakened the stamina or softened the fiber of a free people. A nation does not have to be cruel to be tough. * *-Franklin D. Roosevelt, 32nd US President (1882-1945) *
On Wed, Nov 20, 2013 at 4:42 AM, Richard Ferryman g4bbh@btinternet.comwrote:
Then why are those cubesats using amateur frequencies?
Dick G4BBH
Because the other tenet of amateur radio is experimentation—the first
being communication.
Jonathan Wagner KE5FSG
participants (6)
-
Arthur Feller -
Bill Ress -
Jonathan Wagner -
Richard Ferryman -
Robert Bruninga -
Stefan Wagener