Re: Homebrew Elk-style 14/435 mhz log periodic for sats?
Defiinetely your solution for hoa is the elk as far a I understand you can have a Tv. Antenna which te elk can fairly look like....
I am a true believer of Elk' eficiency and portability...
GL 73's
XE2RV VUCC 164 satellite
-----Original Message----- From: n3tl@bellsouth.net
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 03:52:03 To: billdz.geo@yahoo.com; nss@mwt.net Cc: amsat-bb@amsat.org; billdz.geo@yahoo.com Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Homebrew Elk-style 14/435 mhz log periodic for sats?
Hey Bill,
Your comments about construction, location, etc., are right one, based on my experiences here. I actually move from one side of the house to the other depending on whether passes are to my east or west.
A couple of other things affect the performance I'm getting, too. One of the most important is that my decision to continue using a handheld antenna means I have less than six feet of coax from the radio to the antenna. I'm still getting some loss, but not nearly as much as I'd get by putting antennas in the attic and running much longer feed lines to them. Another is a little trick K4DLG in Florida passed along to me a while back.
He has a log periodic for HF, and the coax runs from the antenna feedpoint along the main boom to the back of the antenna before heading down to the shack. Taking that lead, he did the same thing with the Elk he bought. Doing so mitigated any significant changes in SWR due to moving the antenna around while hand-holding it during a pass. I tried it here and have observed the same thing. For me, at this location (inside or out), 8 degrees of elevation was the best I could hope for with the Arrow I had. In all the months I used that antenna, I made only a few contacts when a given satellite was below 8 degrees here. When I started using the Elk, that "bottom line" immediately dropped to 4 degrees. And when I tried K4DLG's suggestion of running the feedline parallel to the boom, the 4 degrees dropped to 3.
And, as you point out, depending on the location and relative path of a given pass, I can work even lower and make contacts, as I have with some stations in Europe on AO-7.
All of that being said, I also still lose the satellites due to obstruction, as you have observed with your Arrow. When it comes to the FM LEO satellites, only the ISS transmits back to us using more than milliwatt power levels. I know that AO-51 is capable of 1 watt or more, but it generally is not configured to transmit at those levels. Drew or someone, please correct me if that statement is inaccurate. The published stats on AO-27 report a nominal output of 500 mW, and SO-50 is reported to operate with a nominal 250 mW output. I believe both of them also use quarter-wave vertical antennas, which are 0-gain.
Given those power levels, it doesn't take much to begin affecting reception, especially for handheld stations. From here at my home, that quarter of azimuth from 90 degrees to 180 degrees is my worst. For really consistent reception in that part of the sky, I need upwards of 30 degrees elevation when I'm standing outside at ground level. On the second floor of the house, I get reception good enough to facilitate contacts with about 15 degrees of elevation at azimuths from 90 degrees to about 130. I still need close to 30 from azimuth 130 to 180 no matter where I try to operate from - in the yard or upstairs.
I hope you're able to come up with a solution for your location that works even better than you expect!
73 to all,
Tim - N3TL
-------------- Original message from Bill Dzurilla billdz.geo@yahoo.com: --------------
Tim, Yes, your QSO with F2IL is becoming famous, congrats. I think the performance of indoor antennas must be heavily dependent on the location of the shack and the construction materials used on the house. I moved my Eggbeater and ground plane to the attic from outside and noticed a sharp drop in performance. Also tried the Arrow here inside the shack and it did not do too well. And noticed that, even outside in the yard with the Arrow, I lose the sats at low elevation, when they drop below the level of nearby roof lines. On my DXpeditions to Swan Island and Jamaica, where there was unobstructed view over the ocean, I could easily make contacts with less than 1 degree of elevation with the same HT and Arrow.
73, Bill NZ5N
--- On Fri, 4/17/09, n3tl@bellsouth.net wrote:
From: n3tl@bellsouth.net > Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Re: Homebrew Elk-style 14/435 mhz log periodic for
sats?
To: "Joe" , billdz.geo@yahoo.com Cc: amsat-bb@amsat.org Date: Friday, April 17, 2009, 10:19 PM Bill and all,
Joe is right. F2IL gave me a 569 report on AO-7 Mode B Thursday evening - and I was hand-holding my Elk on the second floor of my house, pointing it to the northeast at a spot on a windowless wall. When we worked, AO-7 was at roughly 3.5 degrees elevation here.
I wish I had decided to try these low-angle passes months ago!
73 to all,
Tim - N3TL -------------- Original message from Joe : --------------
You'd be amazed at what you can do with an indoor
yagi also..
My first 2 meter ant was a 3 ele quad on a photo
tripod that sat right
next to me on the floor in the shack,
Joe WB9SBD
Bill Dzurilla wrote:
Are there plans anywhere for a homebrew version of
the Elk duo bander? After reading through the prior thread about the poor performance of Eggbeaters and other omnis, I'm ready to risk the wrath of my Homeowners Association and put up
a small beam.
Or, anybody have an Elk for sale?
73, Bill NZ5N
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I have ordered an Elk. Any set-up tips? I see they recommend using a PVC T-connector to attach the antenna to the mast. This aims the antenna parallel to the ground. How to mount it for a fixed 20 degree elevation?
Also, as this antenna has only one feedline, is there any way to mount preamps for both 70cm and 2m?
Thanks and 73, Bill NZ5N
--- On Sat, 4/18/09, Rafael Valdez G. rafavaldez@hotmail.com wrote:
From: Rafael Valdez G. rafavaldez@hotmail.com Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Re: Homebrew Elk-style 14/435 mhz log periodic for sats? To: "n3tl@bellsouth.net " n3tl@bellsouth.net, "billdz.geo@yahoo.com " billdz.geo@yahoo.com, "nss@mwt.net " nss@mwt.net Cc: "amsat-bb@amsat.org " amsat-bb@amsat.org Date: Saturday, April 18, 2009, 12:04 AM Defiinetely your solution for hoa is the elk as far a I understand you can have a Tv. Antenna which te elk can fairly look like....
I am a true believer of Elk' eficiency and portability...
GL 73's
XE2RV VUCC 164 satellite
-----Original Message----- From: n3tl@bellsouth.net
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 03:52:03 To: billdz.geo@yahoo.com; nss@mwt.net Cc: amsat-bb@amsat.org; billdz.geo@yahoo.com Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Homebrew Elk-style 14/435 mhz log periodic for sats?
Hey Bill,
Your comments about construction, location, etc., are right one, based on my experiences here. I actually move from one side of the house to the other depending on whether passes are to my east or west.
A couple of other things affect the performance I'm getting, too. One of the most important is that my decision to continue using a handheld antenna means I have less than six feet of coax from the radio to the antenna. I'm still getting some loss, but not nearly as much as I'd get by putting antennas in the attic and running much longer feed lines to them. Another is a little trick K4DLG in Florida passed along to me a while back.
He has a log periodic for HF, and the coax runs from the antenna feedpoint along the main boom to the back of the antenna before heading down to the shack. Taking that lead, he did the same thing with the Elk he bought. Doing so mitigated any significant changes in SWR due to moving the antenna around while hand-holding it during a pass. I tried it here and have observed the same thing. For me, at this location (inside or out), 8 degrees of elevation was the best I could hope for with the Arrow I had. In all the months I used that antenna, I made only a few contacts when a given satellite was below 8 degrees here. When I started using the Elk, that "bottom line" immediately dropped to 4 degrees. And when I tried K4DLG's suggestion of running the feedline parallel to the boom, the 4 degrees dropped to 3.
And, as you point out, depending on the location and relative path of a given pass, I can work even lower and make contacts, as I have with some stations in Europe on AO-7.
All of that being said, I also still lose the satellites due to obstruction, as you have observed with your Arrow. When it comes to the FM LEO satellites, only the ISS transmits back to us using more than milliwatt power levels. I know that AO-51 is capable of 1 watt or more, but it generally is not configured to transmit at those levels. Drew or someone, please correct me if that statement is inaccurate. The published stats on AO-27 report a nominal output of 500 mW, and SO-50 is reported to operate with a nominal 250 mW output. I believe both of them also use quarter-wave vertical antennas, which are 0-gain.
Given those power levels, it doesn't take much to begin affecting reception, especially for handheld stations. From here at my home, that quarter of azimuth from 90 degrees to 180 degrees is my worst. For really consistent reception in that part of the sky, I need upwards of 30 degrees elevation when I'm standing outside at ground level. On the second floor of the house, I get reception good enough to facilitate contacts with about 15 degrees of elevation at azimuths from 90 degrees to about 130. I still need close to 30 from azimuth 130 to 180 no matter where I try to operate from - in the yard or upstairs.
I hope you're able to come up with a solution for your location that works even better than you expect!
73 to all,
Tim - N3TL
-------------- Original message from Bill Dzurilla billdz.geo@yahoo.com: --------------
Tim, Yes, your QSO with F2IL is becoming famous, congrats.
I think the performance of indoor antennas must be heavily dependent on the location of the shack and the construction materials used on the house. I moved my Eggbeater and ground plane to the attic from outside and noticed a sharp drop in performance. Also tried the Arrow here inside the shack and it did not do too well. And noticed that, even outside in the yard with the Arrow, I lose the sats at low elevation, when they drop below the level of nearby roof lines. On my DXpeditions to Swan Island and Jamaica, where there was unobstructed view over the ocean, I could easily make contacts with less than 1 degree of elevation with the same HT and
Arrow.
73, Bill NZ5N
--- On Fri, 4/17/09, n3tl@bellsouth.net wrote:
From: n3tl@bellsouth.net > Subject: Re:
[amsat-bb] Re: Homebrew Elk-style 14/435 mhz log periodic for
sats?
To: "Joe" , billdz.geo@yahoo.com Cc: amsat-bb@amsat.org Date: Friday, April 17, 2009, 10:19 PM Bill and all,
Joe is right. F2IL gave me a 569 report on AO-7
Mode B
Thursday evening - and I was hand-holding my Elk
on the
second floor of my house, pointing it to the
northeast at a
spot on a windowless wall. When we worked, AO-7
was at
roughly 3.5 degrees elevation here.
I wish I had decided to try these low-angle
passes months
ago!
73 to all,
Tim - N3TL -------------- Original message from Joe : --------------
You'd be amazed at what you can do with
an indoor
yagi also..
My first 2 meter ant was a 3 ele quad on a
photo
tripod that sat right
next to me on the floor in the shack,
Joe WB9SBD
Bill Dzurilla wrote:
Are there plans anywhere for a homebrew
version of
the Elk duo bander? After reading through the
prior thread
about the poor performance of Eggbeaters and
other omnis,
I'm ready to risk the wrath of my Homeowners
Association
and put up
a small beam.
Or, anybody have an Elk for sale?
73, Bill NZ5N
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions
expressed
are those of the author.
Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to
support the
amateur satellite program!
Subscription settings:
http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions
expressed are
those of the author.
Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support
the
amateur satellite program!
Subscription settings:
http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are
those of the author.
Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the
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Subscription settings:
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Hey Bill,
Based on my experience with it when using the Elk as a handheld antenna, I believe I'd at least try the trick of using a 90-degree connector at the feedpoint and running your coax along the boom to the back of the antenna. By the way - the hardware/PVC necessary for mast mounting comes with the antenna. For a hand-holding handle, I needed only a few feet of PVC and one T connector, about 40 cents worth of parts. You shouldn't need anything for mast-mounting.
I don't have an answer for your preamp question because, as I recall, you're using one full-duplex radio. I'm using two radios and a duplexer here, and would opt for preamps at the radios. I know that's not as effective as mast-mounting, but it would probably have to suffice. I'm sure someone else will provide some input on this.
Best of luck with it all.
73,
Tim - N3TL -------------- Original message from Bill Dzurilla billdz.geo@yahoo.com: --------------
I have ordered an Elk. Any set-up tips? I see they recommend using a PVC T-connector to attach the antenna to the mast. This aims the antenna parallel to the ground. How to mount it for a fixed 20 degree elevation? Also, as this antenna has only one feedline, is there any way to mount preamps for both 70cm and 2m?
Thanks and 73, Bill NZ5N
--- On Sat, 4/18/09, Rafael Valdez G. wrote:
From: Rafael Valdez G. > Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Re: Homebrew Elk-style 14/435 mhz log periodic for
sats? > To: "n3tl@bellsouth.net " , "billdz.geo@yahoo.com " , "nss@mwt.net "
Cc: "amsat-bb@amsat.org " Date: Saturday, April 18, 2009, 12:04 AM Defiinetely your solution for hoa is the elk as far a I understand you can have a Tv. Antenna which te elk can fairly look like....
I am a true believer of Elk' eficiency and portability...
GL 73's
XE2RV VUCC 164 satellite
-----Original Message----- From: n3tl@bellsouth.net
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 03:52:03 To: ; Cc: ;
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Homebrew Elk-style 14/435 mhz log periodic for sats?
Hey Bill,
Your comments about construction, location, etc., are right one, based on my experiences here. I actually move from one side of the house to the other depending on whether passes are to my east or west.
A couple of other things affect the performance I'm getting, too. One of the most important is that my decision to continue using a handheld antenna means I have less than six feet of coax from the radio to the antenna. I'm still getting some loss, but not nearly as much as I'd get by putting antennas in the attic and running much longer feed lines to them. Another is a little trick K4DLG in Florida passed along to me a while back.
He has a log periodic for HF, and the coax runs from the antenna feedpoint along the main boom to the back of the antenna before heading down to the shack. Taking that lead, he did the same thing with the Elk he bought. Doing so mitigated any significant changes in SWR due to moving the antenna around while hand-holding it during a pass. I tried it here and have observed the same thing. For me, at this location (inside or out), 8 degrees of elevation was the best I could hope for with the Arrow I had. In all the months I used that antenna, I made only a few contacts when a given satellite was below 8 degrees here. When I started using the Elk, that "bottom line" immediately dropped to 4 degrees. And when I tried K4DLG's suggestion of running the feedline parallel to the boom, the 4 degrees dropped to 3.
And, as you point out, depending on the location and relative path of a given pass, I can work even lower and make contacts, as I have with some stations in Europe on AO-7.
All of that being said, I also still lose the satellites due to obstruction, as you have observed with your Arrow. When it comes to the FM LEO satellites, only the ISS transmits back to us using more than milliwatt power levels. I know that AO-51 is capable of 1 watt or more, but it generally is not configured to transmit at those levels. Drew or someone, please correct me if that statement is inaccurate. The published stats on AO-27 report a nominal output of 500 mW, and SO-50 is reported to operate with a nominal 250 mW output. I believe both of them also use quarter-wave vertical antennas, which are 0-gain.
Given those power levels, it doesn't take much to begin affecting reception, especially for handheld stations. From here at my home, that quarter of azimuth from 90 degrees to 180 degrees is my worst. For really consistent reception in that part of the sky, I need upwards of 30 degrees elevation when I'm standing outside at ground level. On the second floor of the house, I get reception good enough to facilitate contacts with about 15 degrees of elevation at azimuths from 90 degrees to about 130. I still need close to 30 from azimuth 130 to 180 no matter where I try to operate from - in the yard or upstairs.
I hope you're able to come up with a solution for your location that works even better than you expect!
73 to all,
Tim - N3TL
-------------- Original message from Bill Dzurilla : --------------
Tim, Yes, your QSO with F2IL is becoming famous, congrats.
I think the performance of indoor antennas must be heavily dependent on the location of the shack and the construction materials used on the house. I moved my Eggbeater and ground plane to the attic from outside and noticed a sharp drop in performance. Also tried the Arrow here inside the shack and it did not do too well. And noticed that, even outside in the yard with the Arrow, I lose the sats at low elevation, when they drop below the level of nearby roof lines. On my DXpeditions to Swan Island and Jamaica, where there was unobstructed view over the ocean, I could easily make contacts with less than 1 degree of elevation with the same HT and
Arrow.
73, Bill NZ5N
--- On Fri, 4/17/09, n3tl@bellsouth.net wrote:
From: n3tl@bellsouth.net > Subject: Re:
[amsat-bb] Re: Homebrew Elk-style 14/435 mhz log periodic for
sats?
To: "Joe" , billdz.geo@yahoo.com Cc: amsat-bb@amsat.org Date: Friday, April 17, 2009, 10:19 PM Bill and all,
Joe is right. F2IL gave me a 569 report on AO-7
Mode B
Thursday evening - and I was hand-holding my Elk
on the
second floor of my house, pointing it to the
northeast at a
spot on a windowless wall. When we worked, AO-7
was at
roughly 3.5 degrees elevation here.
I wish I had decided to try these low-angle
passes months
ago!
73 to all,
Tim - N3TL -------------- Original message from Joe : --------------
You'd be amazed at what you can do with
an indoor
yagi also..
My first 2 meter ant was a 3 ele quad on a
photo
tripod that sat right
next to me on the floor in the shack,
Joe WB9SBD
Bill Dzurilla wrote:
Are there plans anywhere for a homebrew
version of
the Elk duo bander? After reading through the
prior thread
about the poor performance of Eggbeaters and
other omnis,
I'm ready to risk the wrath of my Homeowners
Association
and put up
a small beam.
Or, anybody have an Elk for sale?
73, Bill NZ5N
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions
expressed
are those of the author.
Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to
support the
amateur satellite program!
Subscription settings:
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions
expressed are
those of the author.
Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support
the
amateur satellite program!
Subscription settings:
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are
those of the author.
Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the
amateur satellite program!
Subscription settings:
http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
I have been operating the linear sats over the past week on half-duplex, using a single IC-7000 controlled by SatPC32. I've made several contacts, but it has been quite difficult. Obviously the best remedy is to get a second rig and run full duplex, but in the meantime, does anyone have any tips for successful half-duplex operation?
One tip I received from NJ1H is to announce at the start that I am running half duplex, since most stations manually adjust the uplink so that the downlink stays constant. If the other station knows I am running half-duplex, he should adjust the downlink instead of the uplink.
Any other suggestions?
73, Bill NZ5N
Hi Bill,
One other thing is to focus on the beginning and end of the passes, versus the center. The rate of change in the Doppler shift is the worst right at the middle of the pass (time of closest approach). Similarly, low elevation passes have less shift change than higher ones, and higher orbit satellites (e.g. AO-07) have less shift change than low orbit ones (e.g. VO-52).
Another thought is to use your own RIT to compensate for the other station's change, especially on the birds with 2m uplinks. That way you can hear him clearly without changing your own uplink.
Announcing you're running HDX will help if the operator on the other end is experienced. An inexperienced operator probably has enough to worry about, without trying to understand what to do with this new challenge. I worked an HDX operator a long time ago on RS-12/13, I think, and was puzzled why he was so difficult to work. Then I got his QSL card, listing the equipment, and understood. It was odd enough that I remember the contact to this day.
Best wishes (that you find a second rig...),
Greg KO6TH
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 07:13:10 -0700 From: billdz.geo@yahoo.com CC: amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: [amsat-bb] Linear sat half-duplex operating tips?
I have been operating the linear sats over the past week on half-duplex, using a single IC-7000 controlled by SatPC32. I've made several contacts, but it has been quite difficult. Obviously the best remedy is to get a second rig and run full duplex, but in the meantime, does anyone have any tips for successful half-duplex operation?
One tip I received from NJ1H is to announce at the start that I am running half duplex, since most stations manually adjust the uplink so that the downlink stays constant. If the other station knows I am running half-duplex, he should adjust the downlink instead of the uplink.
Any other suggestions?
73, Bill NZ5N
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
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It only has one feedline because it's only one antenna whereas the Arrow is two seperate antennas. If you want preamps for both bands and want to use the antenna to transnit then you'll need a pair of diplexers and RF relays to bypass the preamp on the Tx side.
, as this antenna has only one feedline, is there any way to mount preamps for both 70cm and 2m?
participants (5)
-
Bill Dzurilla -
Greg D. -
n3tl＠bellsouth.net -
Nigel Gunn G8IFF/W8IFF -
Rafael Valdez G.