I/m interested in the possibility of using oscars 27, 29, 50, 51, and 52 without using rotors or directional antennas and maybe while mobile. Uplink seems not to be a problem as one can always QRO to a level where the satellite sees an apropriate signal level that is enough but without robing power from other transponder users. On recieve though you still gotta be able to hear 'em to work 'em. Is an eggbeater and a preamp enough to hear decently or is there another (better) way? Is working mobile and/or without directional antennas even practical? what's the best way to do it?
Thanks,
Eric AF6EP
Eric
Couple of thoughts for you:
No need for QRO, in my opinion. You can solve it all with a good antenna setup.
Regarding antennas...nothing against eggbeaters, but you can accomplish everything with a simple antenna setup, including mobile: Look for Elk antennas and Arrow antennas, hand held and directional. Lots of great success w/o anything other than 5 watts and one of those antennas. Ask WD9EWK and N3TL, who have proven this over and over.
Mark Lunday WD4ELG wd4elg@arrl.net http://wd4elg.net
I have an arrow. It's just sorta difficult to point when in motion. Is the pattern from a standard mobile whip really enough considering polorization and radiation angle or would something else be more effective? I'm looking to move from working portable to truly mobile.
Eric AF6EP
On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 7:46 PM, Mark Lunday mlunday@nc.rr.com wrote:
Eric
Couple of thoughts for you:
No need for QRO, in my opinion. You can solve it all with a good antenna setup.
Regarding antennas...nothing against eggbeaters, but you can accomplish everything with a simple antenna setup, including mobile: Look for Elk antennas and Arrow antennas, hand held and directional. Lots of great success w/o anything other than 5 watts and one of those antennas. Ask WD9EWK and N3TL, who have proven this over and over.
Mark Lunday WD4ELG wd4elg@arrl.net http://wd4elg.net
Good question. With Arrow/Elk, it is directional. Good gain but not omni. With whip it is omni, but reduced gain.
Don't know of anyone who operated while driving, so I cannot help you with that one. Maybe eggbeater is the way to go.
Mark Lunday
WD4ELG
mailto:wd4elg@arrl.net wd4elg@arrl.net
http://wd4elg.net http://wd4elg.net
From: Eric Fort [mailto:eric.fort@gmail.com] Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 11:18 PM To: Mark Lunday Cc: Amsat BB Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] eggbeater rx performance
I have an arrow. It's just sorta difficult to point when in motion. Is the pattern from a standard mobile whip really enough considering polorization and radiation angle or would something else be more effective? I'm looking to move from working portable to truly mobile.
Eric AF6EP
On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 7:46 PM, Mark Lunday mlunday@nc.rr.com wrote:
Eric
Couple of thoughts for you:
No need for QRO, in my opinion. You can solve it all with a good antenna setup.
Regarding antennas...nothing against eggbeaters, but you can accomplish everything with a simple antenna setup, including mobile: Look for Elk antennas and Arrow antennas, hand held and directional. Lots of great success w/o anything other than 5 watts and one of those antennas. Ask WD9EWK and N3TL, who have proven this over and over.
Mark Lunday WD4ELG wd4elg@arrl.net http://wd4elg.net
Many years ago I worked the MIR space station while driving to work. I was headed West on I-80, and MIR had just come up on the horizon. Admittedly it had a lot higher power, and a lower orbit, but he was full quieting on FM into my Larsen 2/70 glass mount. I wouldn't be surprised if you could get a fair signal with a whip antenna and a good preamp running SSB on FO-29.
I'm not going to encourage anyone to operate CW while driving! Even for SSB, get your rig hooked up to a small laptop with automatic doppler tracking, and set it up before departing, or you might just shift yourself off the road and into a tree. That might damage the rig.
Greg KO6TH
From: mlunday@nc.rr.com To: eric.fort@gmail.com Date: Sat, 30 May 2009 00:10:32 -0400 CC: amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: eggbeater rx performance
Good question. With Arrow/Elk, it is directional. Good gain but not omni. With whip it is omni, but reduced gain.
Don't know of anyone who operated while driving, so I cannot help you with that one. Maybe eggbeater is the way to go.
Mark Lunday
WD4ELG
_________________________________________________________________ Hotmail® has ever-growing storage! Don’t worry about storage limits. http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/Storage?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutoria...
Greg and all,
I must respectfully disagree - unless we have different definitions of what constitutes a fair signal. The carious satellite-description pages on the AMSAT Web site include information about transmit power for all of the satellites. All of them except AO-7 are transmitting nominally at power levels less than 1 watt.
If anyone following this thread remembers the special operating mode the ISS repeater was in during December, for the 25th anniverary, you may recall that ARISS announed it would be a "low power" operation, which I believe meant 5 watts out. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong about that. Even at 5 watts, the ISS, was so strong one almost didn't have to Doppler-tune for the downlink, and it was on UHF! For the special operating period, they put the repeater in Mode J instead of the usual Mode B.
My point is that the ISS, which is in an orbit quite a bit lower than our satellites, was transmitting with more than 5 times the power of our FM and most of the linear satellites. My experience with mobile operation has been that I do best with AO-27 and SO-50. Both of them use 0-gain, quarter-wave verticals mounted on one corner of the satellite.My vertical likes their verticals ... hihi.
Dave is right about the quadrafiliars, by the way - I just saw his post come in as I was typing this. Contact Allen, N5AFV, who has picked up one of the Antennas US quadrafiliars, and he's using it mobile with pretty good success.
Eric, if you're interested in truly mobile operation, your decision will involve a compromise. You will not get the same "coverage" during a pass that you get with either the Arrow or the Elk when you are parked and pointing. Your "operating window" will be more narrow. But it's definitely do-able. I was shocked to work Craig, KL4E, in Anchorage a couple weeks ago from southwest Missouri. We worked on AO-27, and I was using my Yaesu VX-7R HT and an MFJ 1729 dual-band mag mount. That pass was a maximum elevation of 16 degrees to my location, which was just east of Seymour, Mo., along the side of U.S. 60 on a county road. I had about a minute of readable copy, and I was in a location with a "look" toward the satellite that was flatter and more unobstructed than what I routinely deal with at home. If I'd gotten to that spot in time to assemble the Elk, I would have been able to work from at least 3 degrees elevation coming up to 3 degrees going down. That's my nominal AOS/LOS cutoff with the handheld Elk. Using the Elk would've given me several minutes of the pass, instead of just 1 on the vertical. That's where the compromise of an omni directional antenna comes in.
Whichever way you go, have fun with it!
Thanks, Mark, for the kind words about the operating Patrick and I are doing with our portable stations. It far exceeds anything I expected.
73 to all,
Tim - N3TL Athens, Ga. - EM84ha -------------- Original message from "Greg D." ko6th_greg@hotmail.com: --------------
Many years ago I worked the MIR space station while driving to work. I was headed West on I-80, and MIR had just come up on the horizon. Admittedly it had a lot higher power, and a lower orbit, but he was full quieting on FM into my Larsen 2/70 glass mount. I wouldn't be surprised if you could get a fair signal with a whip antenna and a good preamp running SSB on FO-29. I'm not going to encourage anyone to operate CW while driving! Even for SSB, get your rig hooked up to a small laptop with automatic doppler tracking, and set it up before departing, or you might just shift yourself off the road and into a tree. That might damage the rig.
Greg KO6TH
From: mlunday@nc.rr.com To: eric.fort@gmail.com Date: Sat, 30 May 2009 00:10:32 -0400 CC: amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: eggbeater rx performance
Good question. With Arrow/Elk, it is directional. Good gain but not omni. With whip it is omni, but reduced gain.
Don't know of anyone who operated while driving, so I cannot help you with that one. Maybe eggbeater is the way to go.
Mark Lunday
WD4ELG
Hotmail® has ever-growing storage! Don’t worry about storage limits. http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/Storage?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutoria... orage1_052009 _______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Hi Tim,
Actually I think we do agree on this. That some, when things align, can work satellite with an HT and a whip antenna, tells me that working satellite while mobile with a groundplane antenna and a preamp is possible, if not occasionally likely. It certainly won't be as reliable or smooth as the local repeater, but then those same some people would offer that the local repeater is not as much fun either.
One might also suggest that the only thing more exciting than working satellite while mobile, is driving fast enough to require re-doing the Doppler shift calculation... :-)
Greg KO6TH
From: n3tl@bellsouth.net To: ko6th_greg@hotmail.com; mlunday@nc.rr.com; eric.fort@gmail.com CC: amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Re: eggbeater rx performance Date: Sat, 30 May 2009 04:54:46 +0000
Greg and all,
I must respectfully disagree - unless we have different definitions of what constitutes a fair signal. The carious satellite-description pages on the AMSAT Web site include information about transmit power for all of the satellites. All of them except AO-7 are transmitting nominally at power levels less than 1 watt.
If anyone following this thread remembers the special operating mode the ISS repeater was in during December, for the 25th anniverary, you may recall that ARISS announed it would be a "low power" operation, which I believe meant 5 watts out. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong about that. Even at 5 watts, the ISS, was so strong one almost didn't have to Doppler-tune for the downlink, and it was on UHF! For the special operating period, they put the repeater in Mode J instead of the usual Mode B.
My point is that the ISS, which is in an orbit quite a bit lower than our satellites, was transmitting with more than 5 times the power of our FM and most of the linear satellites. My experience with mobile operation has been that I do best with AO-27 and SO-50. Both of them use 0-gain, quarter-wave verticals mounted on one corner of the satellite.My vertical likes their verticals ... hihi.
Dave is right about the quadrafiliars, by the way - I just saw his post come in as I was typing this. Contact Allen, N5AFV, who has picked up one of the Antennas US quadrafiliars, and he's using it mobile with pretty good success.
Eric, if you're interested in truly mobile operation, your decision will involve a compromise. You will not get the same "coverage" during a pass that you get with either the Arrow or the Elk when you are parked and pointing. Your "operating window" will be more narrow. But it's definitely do-able. I was shocked to work Craig, KL4E, in Anchorage a couple weeks ago from southwest Missouri. We worked on AO-27, and I was using my Yaesu VX-7R HT and an MFJ 1729 dual-band mag mount. That pass was a maximum elevation of 16 degrees to my location, which was just east of Seymour, Mo., along the side of U.S. 60 on a county road. I had about a minute of readable copy, and I was in a location with a "look" toward the satellite that was flatter and more unobstructed than what I routinely deal with at home. If I'd gotten to that spot in time to assemble the Elk, I would have been able to work from at least 3 degrees elevation coming up to 3 degrees going down. That's my nominal AOS/LOS cutoff with the handheld Elk. Using the Elk would've given me several minutes of the pass, instead of just 1 on the vertical. That's where the compromise of an omni directional antenna comes in.
Whichever way you go, have fun with it!
Thanks, Mark, for the kind words about the operating Patrick and I are doing with our portable stations. It far exceeds anything I expected.
73 to all,
Tim - N3TL Athens, Ga. - EM84ha -------------- Original message from "Greg D." ko6th_greg@hotmail.com: --------------
Many years ago I worked the MIR space station while driving to work. I was headed West on I-80, and MIR had just come up on the horizon. Admittedly it had a lot higher power, and a lower orbit, but he was full quieting on FM into my Larsen 2/70 glass mount. I wouldn't be surprised if you could get a fair signal with a whip antenna and a good preamp running SSB on FO-29. I'm not going to encourage anyone to operate CW while driving! Even for SSB, get your rig hooked up to a small laptop with automatic doppler tracking, and set it up before departing, or you might just shift yourself off the road and into a tree. That might damage the rig.
Greg KO6TH
From: mlunday@nc.rr.com To: eric.fort@gmail.com Date: Sat, 30 May 2009 00:10:32 -0400 CC: amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: eggbeater rx performance
Good question. With Arrow/Elk, it is directional. Good gain but not omni. With whip it is omni, but reduced gain.
Don't know of anyone who operated while driving, so I cannot help you with that one. Maybe eggbeater is the way to go.
Mark Lunday
WD4ELG
Hotmail® has ever-growing storage! Don’t worry about storage limits. http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/Storage?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutoria... orage1_052009 _______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
_________________________________________________________________ Windows Live™: Keep your life in sync. http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_BR_life_in_synch_052009
I have operated while driving. I found a trunk mounted 2 meter half wave (dual bander) to work well when the satellite was behind me, but not at all overhead or in front of the car (makes sense). I currently have a 2 meter quarter wave (dual bander) mounted by drilling into the center of the roof. It works in all directions (again makes sense).
I have always operated full duplex, usually with a headset mic, but sometimes without. The following radios have worked for me.
Yaesu FT-4700 -- The first radio I did it with. Icom IC-2340 -- Worked okay Icom IC-2720 -- Worked great (One side hears better than the other) the radio has "other" issues Yaesu FT-8900 -- Works very well
Mode B is vastly superior to mode J for mobile operation. AO-21 and SO-35 rocked beyond belief!
73, Joe kk0sd
-----Original Message----- From: amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org [mailto:amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org] On Behalf Of Mark Lunday Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 11:11 PM To: eric.fort@gmail.com Cc: 'Amsat BB' Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: eggbeater rx performance
Good question. With Arrow/Elk, it is directional. Good gain but not omni. With whip it is omni, but reduced gain.
Don't know of anyone who operated while driving, so I cannot help you with that one. Maybe eggbeater is the way to go.
Mark Lunday
WD4ELG
mailto:wd4elg@arrl.net wd4elg@arrl.net
http://wd4elg.net http://wd4elg.net
From: Eric Fort [mailto:eric.fort@gmail.com] Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 11:18 PM To: Mark Lunday Cc: Amsat BB Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] eggbeater rx performance
I have an arrow. It's just sorta difficult to point when in motion. Is the pattern from a standard mobile whip really enough considering polorization and radiation angle or would something else be more effective? I'm looking to move from working portable to truly mobile.
Eric AF6EP
On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 7:46 PM, Mark Lunday mlunday@nc.rr.com wrote:
Eric
Couple of thoughts for you:
No need for QRO, in my opinion. You can solve it all with a good antenna setup.
Regarding antennas...nothing against eggbeaters, but you can accomplish everything with a simple antenna setup, including mobile: Look for Elk antennas and Arrow antennas, hand held and directional. Lots of great success w/o anything other than 5 watts and one of those antennas. Ask WD9EWK and N3TL, who have proven this over and over.
Mark Lunday WD4ELG wd4elg@arrl.net http://wd4elg.net
_______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Hey Eric,
I aggree with the comments on the hand held antenna. I use the Elk exclusively at this point but would like to find a base antenna option. I cannot use beams of rotored antennas as I just don't have the real estate.
I have met folks on this board who totaly believe in eggbeaters, but I cannot afford to buy one only to learn that it didn't meet expectations. I have been building some, but haven't quite worked it out yet.
I have built a turnstyle for 440 with an AAR preamp. It isn't great, but it shows some promise.
I will follow this thread and hope we both find our solutions
73! Steve. KI6OQU Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
-----Original Message----- From: Eric Fort eric.fort@gmail.com
Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 18:17:17 To: Amsat BBamsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: [amsat-bb] eggbeater rx performance
I/m interested in the possibility of using oscars 27, 29, 50, 51, and 52 without using rotors or directional antennas and maybe while mobile. Uplink seems not to be a problem as one can always QRO to a level where the satellite sees an apropriate signal level that is enough but without robing power from other transponder users. On recieve though you still gotta be able to hear 'em to work 'em. Is an eggbeater and a preamp enough to hear decently or is there another (better) way? Is working mobile and/or without directional antennas even practical? what's the best way to do it?
Thanks,
Eric AF6EP _______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Steve
I took a shovel handle, a Radio Shack el cheapo rotor, some electrical tape, and taped an Elk to the shovel handle in the attic. 30 degrees fixed elevation. Rotate within 30 degrees azimuth during the pass. Works like a charm.
Mark Lunday WD4ELG wd4elg@arrl.net http://wd4elg.net
-----Original Message----- From: amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org [mailto:amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org] On Behalf Of Steve Bluemel Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 11:17 PM To: eric.fort@gmail.com; AMSAT-BB@amsat.org Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: eggbeater rx performance
Hey Eric,
I aggree with the comments on the hand held antenna. I use the Elk exclusively at this point but would like to find a base antenna option. I cannot use beams of rotored antennas as I just don't have the real estate.
I have met folks on this board who totaly believe in eggbeaters, but I cannot afford to buy one only to learn that it didn't meet expectations. I have been building some, but haven't quite worked it out yet.
I have built a turnstyle for 440 with an AAR preamp. It isn't great, but it shows some promise.
I will follow this thread and hope we both find our solutions
73! Steve. KI6OQU Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
-----Original Message----- From: Eric Fort eric.fort@gmail.com
Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 18:17:17 To: Amsat BBamsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: [amsat-bb] eggbeater rx performance
I/m interested in the possibility of using oscars 27, 29, 50, 51, and 52 without using rotors or directional antennas and maybe while mobile. Uplink seems not to be a problem as one can always QRO to a level where the satellite sees an apropriate signal level that is enough but without robing power from other transponder users. On recieve though you still gotta be able to hear 'em to work 'em. Is an eggbeater and a preamp enough to hear decently or is there another (better) way? Is working mobile and/or without directional antennas even practical? what's the best way to do it?
Thanks,
Eric AF6EP _______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
_______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Just about everyone I know that started out with eggbeaters now has directional antennas.
73 Bob W7LRD
----- Original Message ----- From: "Eric Fort" eric.fort@gmail.com To: "Amsat BB" amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 6:17:17 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific Subject: [amsat-bb] eggbeater rx performance
I/m interested in the possibility of using oscars 27, 29, 50, 51, and 52 without using rotors or directional antennas and maybe while mobile. Uplink seems not to be a problem as one can always QRO to a level where the satellite sees an apropriate signal level that is enough but without robing power from other transponder users. On recieve though you still gotta be able to hear 'em to work 'em. Is an eggbeater and a preamp enough to hear decently or is there another (better) way? Is working mobile and/or without directional antennas even practical? what's the best way to do it?
Thanks,
Eric AF6EP _______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Eric, A Quadrifilar Helix antenna will meet your needs, and if you choose 1 wavelength, 1 turn design you will have a greater gain at the horizon than at the zenith which is what you need to compensate for the change in satellite distance to the observer over the entire pass. It is also circular giving excellent rejection to ground and building reflections that cause QSB. The designs were developed by C.C. Kilgus MSEE in the mid to late 60's. Designs vary from 1/4 Wave, 1/4 turn to 1 wave length, 1 turn. His work was published in the December 1970 Microwave Journal beginning on Pg 49.
Art, KC6UQH
-----Original Message----- From: amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org [mailto:amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org] On Behalf Of Eric Fort Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 6:17 PM To: Amsat BB Subject: [amsat-bb] eggbeater rx performance
I/m interested in the possibility of using oscars 27, 29, 50, 51, and 52 without using rotors or directional antennas and maybe while mobile. Uplink seems not to be a problem as one can always QRO to a level where the satellite sees an apropriate signal level that is enough but without robing power from other transponder users. On recieve though you still gotta be able to hear 'em to work 'em. Is an eggbeater and a preamp enough to hear decently or is there another (better) way? Is working mobile and/or without directional antennas even practical? what's the best way to do it?
Thanks,
Eric AF6EP _______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
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participants (8)
-
Art McBride -
Eric Fort -
Gary "Joe" Mayfield -
Greg D. -
Mark Lunday -
n3tl＠bellsouth.net -
Steve Bluemel -
w7lrd＠comcast.net