9 Cubesats selected for free ESA ride to space
Cubesats built by students from universities in Poland Spain Italy Switzerland Romania France and Belgium have been selected for a free ride to low earth orbit. The launch is scheduled on the Vega maiden flight from Kourou at the end 2008 / early 2009 TBC.
_http://www.esa.int/esaED/SEM2BPUG3HF_index_0.html_ (http://www.esa.int/esaED/SEM2BPUG3HF_index_0.html)
Thanks
David
Hi David, G0MRF
It seem to me that while the Universities are becaming tennis players we collect telemetry without to be involved in their experiments and this is like to only pick up their balls and run with it.
The only difference is that each University receive governement contributions to build the satellite while we radioamateurs invest a lot of personal money to build our own satellite stations.
Since the Radioamateur Community make a worldwide service to the Universities my idea is to collect their TLM upon official donations to be used to build our Orbiting Satellites Carrying Amateur Radio i.e. satellites with linear transponders to talk each other.
Is the Amateur Satellite Service becaming an endangered species ?
It will became an endangered species if P3-E and EAGLE will be not placed in orbit as soon as possible but this requires our contributions ............or not ?
Do you like my TLM ?............Please donate !
73" de
i8CVS Domenico
----- Original Message ----- From: G0MRF@aol.com To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2008 4:29 PM Subject: [amsat-bb] 9 Cubesats selected for free ESA ride to space
Cubesats built by students from universities in Poland Spain Italy Switzerland Romania France and Belgium have been selected for a free ride
to low earth
orbit. The launch is scheduled on the Vega maiden flight from Kourou at
the
end 2008 / early 2009 TBC.
_http://www.esa.int/esaED/SEM2BPUG3HF_index_0.html_ (http://www.esa.int/esaED/SEM2BPUG3HF_index_0.html)
Thanks
David
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Dom:
I greatly respect the knowledge you bring to this list, but I think you are incorrect here on several fronts.
In at least one instance, the cubesat is, in fact, directly involved in amateur communications: "OUFTI-1 (University of Liège, Belgium): a mission to test the use of the D-STAR amateur radio digital communication protocol in space"
As for the others, I think we should consider our telemetry-collecting services paid for in arrears by projects like Delfi C3. Like it or not, this is the place where small satellites are being routinely and cheaply launched. We should give this momentum an occasional nudge in the direction of our interests, not decry it.
Finally, I and others find telemetry transmission and collection a wholly appropriate and very interesting use of amateur spectra. This may sound crazy, but I've come to consider those signals that tell me about conditions of the hardware in space often to be more interesting than signals bounced from earth through space back to earth.
I think much of the opposition to cubesats derives from the mistaken opinion that they represent a lost opportunity to apply the same energies to a HEO satellite. My experience within the university makes me believe this is false: it is not the case that their universities and sponsors would, under other circumstances, pitch in for an amateur communications HEO bird.
73, Bruce VE9QRP
On Sat, Jun 7, 2008 at 2:24 PM, i8cvs domenico.i8cvs@tin.it wrote:
Hi David, G0MRF
It seem to me that while the Universities are becaming tennis players we collect telemetry without to be involved in their experiments and this is like to only pick up their balls and run with it.
Hi Bruce, VE9QRP
Belive or not believe you and me and nobody never made a QSO via a Cubesats.
The Satellite Amateur Radio Community is not made only by Ham Radio scientist working for the Universities but mostly they are working people belonging to all working classes.
Be sure that once the Universities have the ESA/NASA/JAXA-sponsored GENSO project running, they will probably even not need our help anymore, but only our frequencies !!!
73" de
i8CVS Domenico
----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce Robertson" ve9qrp@gmail.com To: "i8cvs" domenico.i8cvs@tin.it Cc: "AMSAT" amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2008 11:45 PM Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Re: 9 Cubesats selected for free ESA ride to space
Dom:
I greatly respect the knowledge you bring to this list, but I think you are incorrect here on several fronts.
In at least one instance, the cubesat is, in fact, directly involved in amateur communications: "OUFTI-1 (University of Liège, Belgium): a mission to test the use of the D-STAR amateur radio digital communication protocol in space"
As for the others, I think we should consider our telemetry-collecting services paid for in arrears by projects like Delfi C3. Like it or not, this is the place where small satellites are being routinely and cheaply launched. We should give this momentum an occasional nudge in the direction of our interests, not decry it.
Finally, I and others find telemetry transmission and collection a wholly appropriate and very interesting use of amateur spectra. This may sound crazy, but I've come to consider those signals that tell me about conditions of the hardware in space often to be more interesting than signals bounced from earth through space back to earth.
I think much of the opposition to cubesats derives from the mistaken opinion that they represent a lost opportunity to apply the same energies to a HEO satellite. My experience within the university makes me believe this is false: it is not the case that their universities and sponsors would, under other circumstances, pitch in for an amateur communications HEO bird.
73, Bruce VE9QRP
On Sat, Jun 7, 2008 at 2:24 PM, i8cvs domenico.i8cvs@tin.it wrote:
Hi David, G0MRF
It seem to me that while the Universities are becaming tennis players we collect telemetry without to be involved in their experiments and this is like to only pick up their balls and run with it.
On Sat, Jun 7, 2008 at 7:32 PM, i8cvs domenico.i8cvs@tin.it wrote:
Hi Bruce, VE9QRP
Belive or not believe you and me and nobody never made a QSO via a Cubesats.
Actually, that might not be true. Apparently the control team tested the transponder on Delfi C3 recently. I'm not sure if that meant they made an actual QSO with two stations, or just listened to their own uplink. In either case, it seems pretty certain we'll have cubesat QSOs in a matter of weeks.
The Satellite Amateur Radio Community is not made only by Ham Radio scientist working for the Universities but mostly they are working people belonging to all working classes.
Fair enough. But Cubesats offer a real opportunity for a far smaller group of people from all classes to build and launch an amateur communication satellite, too. Our critical problem, as I see it, is that in NA and EU there are no free or deeply-discounted rides as there were in the earlier times. Cubesats seem to offer launches regularly because they aren't relying on the freebie system, but just on really small, light objects costing a whole lot less to launch.
Be sure that once the Universities have the ESA/NASA/JAXA-sponsored GENSO project running, they will probably even not need our help anymore, but only our frequencies !!!
Dom, judging by the discussion on the irc chat after a cubesat launch, my contribution will always be valued. Honestly, you'd find it a real hoot to be part of that whole process. I was so chuffed to hear Defl C3 booming into my station, about three S-units over VO-52. And, for a project like Delfi C3, where the more data, the better, an extensive network like we amateurs offer is a goldmine, never replaced by a handful of university sites.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce Robertson" ve9qrp@gmail.com To: "i8cvs" domenico.i8cvs@tin.it Cc: "AMSAT" amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2008 11:45 PM Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Re: 9 Cubesats selected for free ESA ride to space
Dom:
I greatly respect the knowledge you bring to this list, but I think you are incorrect here on several fronts.
In at least one instance, the cubesat is, in fact, directly involved in amateur communications: "OUFTI-1 (University of Liège, Belgium): a mission to test the use of the D-STAR amateur radio digital communication protocol in space"
As for the others, I think we should consider our telemetry-collecting services paid for in arrears by projects like Delfi C3. Like it or not, this is the place where small satellites are being routinely and cheaply launched. We should give this momentum an occasional nudge in the direction of our interests, not decry it.
Finally, I and others find telemetry transmission and collection a wholly appropriate and very interesting use of amateur spectra. This may sound crazy, but I've come to consider those signals that tell me about conditions of the hardware in space often to be more interesting than signals bounced from earth through space back to earth.
I think much of the opposition to cubesats derives from the mistaken opinion that they represent a lost opportunity to apply the same energies to a HEO satellite. My experience within the university makes me believe this is false: it is not the case that their universities and sponsors would, under other circumstances, pitch in for an amateur communications HEO bird.
73, Bruce VE9QRP
On Sat, Jun 7, 2008 at 2:24 PM, i8cvs domenico.i8cvs@tin.it wrote:
Hi David, G0MRF
It seem to me that while the Universities are becaming tennis players we collect telemetry without to be involved in their experiments and this is like to only pick up their balls and run with it.
On Jun 7, 2008, at 10:24 AM, i8cvs wrote:
Hi David, G0MRF
It seem to me that while the Universities are becaming tennis players we collect telemetry without to be involved in their experiments and this is like to only pick up their balls and run with it.
The only difference is that each University receive governement contributions to build the satellite while we radioamateurs invest a lot of personal money to build our own satellite stations.
Since the Radioamateur Community make a worldwide service to the Universities my idea is to collect their TLM upon official donations to be used to build our Orbiting Satellites Carrying Amateur Radio i.e. satellites with linear transponders to talk each other.
Is the Amateur Satellite Service becaming an endangered species ?
It will became an endangered species if P3-E and EAGLE will be not placed in orbit as soon as possible but this requires our contributions ............or not ?
Do you like my TLM ?............Please donate !
73" de
i8CVS Domenico
I can't understand this kind of attitude.
First of all, let's talk about why cubesats are important. Cubesats are inexpensive enough for them to be launched with some regularity using funding sources that are available to universities on small grants. They have launch opportunities which are affordable and relatively easy to find and schedule. That means that people are building satellites and launching satellites with some regularity. The recent PSLV launch put nine different satellites into orbit. These satellites include one which contains a Mode U/V transponder, cameras, digitalkers, slow scan tv, and almost all have CW beacons. That's pretty darned cool. Monitoring their telemetry has been a fun activity for me, and I look forward to using the Delfi C3 transponder when its available for our use.
And yet, we have radio amateurs complaining about them. About them using _our_ frequencies. Using _our_ equipment to receive telemetry. We sound like a bunch of spoiled brats. We should be trying hard to encourage cooperation between these university projects and amateur radio, not by _dictating_ what they do (after all, they aren't going to get grants to satsify your own personal desires) but by trying to find common ground between their goals and our own. But we have to remember that we _aren't paying for their launches_ and we _aren't doing their research_. We cannot dictate what they do. With luck and careful planning, we can _participate_ in what they do. If we say "if you are going to use our frequencies, we expect you to give money to us", the only thing that will happen is that they will cease to use amateur frequencies.
The opinion of a large number of hams on this list seems to be that if we aren't launching P3-E or Eagle into HEO, then the amateur satellite is doomed. I think likely should be filed under "self-fufilling prophecy". Yes, we'd all like have big hardware in HEO. But how many of those launches have we had in the last decade? What are our future prospects? It seems to me that we should be paying much closer attention to these cubesat launches and trying to understand how they represent an opportunity for amateur radio.
But even if you don't buy that argument, try this one: these satellite launches have nothing to do with our own inability to get satellites into orbit. They aren't filling slots on launch vehicles that we desire. They aren't crowding frequencies that we use. They aren't pulling money from any funding sources that amateurs use. So if you can't get behind them, how about just shutting up about them. If they aren't of any interest to you, so be it. But stop complaining about them.
Mark (KF6KYI)
On Saturday 07 June 2008 13:24:52 i8cvs wrote:
Hi David, G0MRF
It seem to me that while the Universities are becaming tennis players we collect telemetry without to be involved in their experiments and this is like to only pick up their balls and run with it.
The only difference is that each University receive governement contributions to build the satellite while we radioamateurs invest a lot of personal money to build our own satellite stations.
Since the Radioamateur Community make a worldwide service to the Universities my idea is to collect their TLM upon official donations to be used to build our Orbiting Satellites Carrying Amateur Radio i.e. satellites with linear transponders to talk each other.
Is the Amateur Satellite Service becaming an endangered species ?
It will became an endangered species if P3-E and EAGLE will be not placed in orbit as soon as possible but this requires our contributions ............or not ?
Do you like my TLM ?............Please donate !
73" de
i8CVS Domenico
Hello Domenico,
I keep your posts in my mailbox because I find that what you and a few others say are really valuable. I've little practical experience on the satellites myself; I have nearly all the equipment, so am getting there, slowly, at least in part because of the excellent advice you and others have given here.
I'd have to say that I think I really disagree with you on this subject. I hope I can explain.
Space is a *big* place, both in terms of its physicality, and the numbers of people/entities doing things there. Currently the cubesats seem to be the pre-eminent form factor for getting up there, and its easy to see why: easier to get a ride up there, cheaper to build, in fact so cheap that "student" types can now do so, ala DO-64, et al.
These cubesats aren't like the early sats like AO-7, and they were never designed that way. I think at least some hams decry these non-traditional cubesats because of this.
I think what I'm hearing about these little creatures is great! We're getting a new generation of folks who are thinking in the sky, working on little systems now, and who knows what will come about in the future.
Their exposure to amateur radio, even if only thought of as the expedient route to get tele-command systems running quickly and cheaply, is still getting folks interested in the hobby. Ham radio has a way of sticking in folks heads--how many hams do we all know, who dropped out for years, only to get back in again? I think the work with amateur radio will pay off in the future. Think of it as an investment, with dividends yet to be known.
We longer term hams are responsible for "our" kind of transponder systems. It shouldn't be up to other entities for this. I'm still trying to get a good overall understanding of the two large projects underway, but it does seem as if squabbling among ourselves is hindering things.
But my main point here is that the cubesats have incredible potential. Getting student types interested in them and building things up is going to have a payback for us.
Me, I'd love to see so many of the little beasts racing around that demos to folks could always have a poster listing "whats next" and keep the nubies eyes wide open. ;-)
--STeve Andre' wb8wsf en82
On Sat, Jun 7, 2008 at 11:29 AM, G0MRF@aol.com wrote:
Cubesats built by students from universities in Poland Spain Italy Switzerland Romania France and Belgium have been selected for a free ride to low earth orbit. The launch is scheduled on the Vega maiden flight from Kourou at the end 2008 / early 2009 TBC.
_http://www.esa.int/esaED/SEM2BPUG3HF_index_0.html_ (http://www.esa.int/esaED/SEM2BPUG3HF_index_0.html)
Thanks
David
If their plans have not progressed too far, I wonder if we can encourage any of these projects to use an s-band downlink. I know the path loss needs to be compensated by a more directional antenna, and that means pointing; and it's also the case, I believe, that the amplifiers are not as efficient. They'd also have to take into consideration the noise level in urban areas (though I don't think this is yet at a level that will trouble LEO signal levels). Add to this the fact that they'd have far fewer stations capable of receiving the signals.
From the perspective of the amateur service, though, having a few
university experiments making use of this band would colonize it very nicely. And it would let us calibrate and exercise our s-band equipment.
73, Bruce VE9QRP
participants (5)
-
Bruce Robertson -
G0MRF＠aol.com -
i8cvs -
Mark Vandewettering -
STeve Andre'