Good afternoon,
During the last AO-91 pass, there were many interesting stations on, but in particular there were two low power rovers in rare grids: FG8OJ was in FK95 and C6AWD/MM (AC0RA) was in FL25 (an entirely wet grid that the ship will only be in for a short period of time).
Yet, even while those two were in the footprint, stations were calling other fixed stations that they can work on any pass of any satellite, day or night. Right now, we have 14 satellites where you can make a QSO with a guy next door. There's no need to work a hundred stations on every pass of AO-91, especially when two guys in rare grids with low power equipment are attempting to hand them out. It's all about situational awareness. Pay attention to what grid ops are going to be on a pass (monitoring Twitter, Facebook, and the BB prior to a pass are handy for this), listen before you transmit, noting anything that seems rare, and wait to make other QSOs until the rare stations are out of the footprint. And please don't keep calling stations when they are out of the footprint. Learn your geography and/or look at a map, please!
This is how I approached the pass: From monitoring Twitter, I was well aware that there would be two rare rovers on (the two I mentioned before). I did not need FG8OJ in FK95, so I did not call him. However, FL25 is a hole in my map. When I heard C6AWD/MM in FL25, I made my call, worked him, and then didn't attempt any more QSOs until he was out of the footprint (this included not responding to a person that called me).
I know this is not the first time this topic has been raised, but behavior has been especially terrible since the launch of AO-91. Eventually, I and others will be forced to name and shame stations engaged in poor behavior. FM satellites are wonderful in that the simple, inexpensive equipment required to work them opens up the amateur satellite hobby to a large number of people. However, since they are a single channel covering a wide area, they also demand a good amount of situational awareness and courtesy when operating.
73,
Paul, N8HM
I couldn’t have said it better myself, Paul. The behavior I have witnessed on AO-91 lately is about as far from examples of good operating practice as I can imagine. We can all do better. On Sun, Dec 10, 2017 at 12:06 PM Paul Stoetzer n8hm@arrl.net wrote:
Good afternoon,
During the last AO-91 pass, there were many interesting stations on, but in particular there were two low power rovers in rare grids: FG8OJ was in FK95 and C6AWD/MM (AC0RA) was in FL25 (an entirely wet grid that the ship will only be in for a short period of time).
Yet, even while those two were in the footprint, stations were calling other fixed stations that they can work on any pass of any satellite, day or night. Right now, we have 14 satellites where you can make a QSO with a guy next door. There's no need to work a hundred stations on every pass of AO-91, especially when two guys in rare grids with low power equipment are attempting to hand them out. It's all about situational awareness. Pay attention to what grid ops are going to be on a pass (monitoring Twitter, Facebook, and the BB prior to a pass are handy for this), listen before you transmit, noting anything that seems rare, and wait to make other QSOs until the rare stations are out of the footprint. And please don't keep calling stations when they are out of the footprint. Learn your geography and/or look at a map, please!
This is how I approached the pass: From monitoring Twitter, I was well aware that there would be two rare rovers on (the two I mentioned before). I did not need FG8OJ in FK95, so I did not call him. However, FL25 is a hole in my map. When I heard C6AWD/MM in FL25, I made my call, worked him, and then didn't attempt any more QSOs until he was out of the footprint (this included not responding to a person that called me).
I know this is not the first time this topic has been raised, but behavior has been especially terrible since the launch of AO-91. Eventually, I and others will be forced to name and shame stations engaged in poor behavior. FM satellites are wonderful in that the simple, inexpensive equipment required to work them opens up the amateur satellite hobby to a large number of people. However, since they are a single channel covering a wide area, they also demand a good amount of situational awareness and courtesy when operating.
73,
Paul, N8HM _______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Reminds me of Packet Wars, in the last millennium......
73,
Jack VK4JRC
Club. www.cqara.org.au
On 11 Dec 2017, at 04:24, Mike Thompson zryder94@gmail.com wrote:
I couldn’t have said it better myself, Paul. The behavior I have witnessed on AO-91 lately is about as far from examples of good operating practice as I can imagine. We can all do better. On Sun, Dec 10, 2017 at 12:06 PM Paul Stoetzer n8hm@arrl.net wrote:
Good afternoon,
During the last AO-91 pass, there were many interesting stations on, but in particular there were two low power rovers in rare grids: FG8OJ was in FK95 and C6AWD/MM (AC0RA) was in FL25 (an entirely wet grid that the ship will only be in for a short period of time).
Yet, even while those two were in the footprint, stations were calling other fixed stations that they can work on any pass of any satellite, day or night. Right now, we have 14 satellites where you can make a QSO with a guy next door. There's no need to work a hundred stations on every pass of AO-91, especially when two guys in rare grids with low power equipment are attempting to hand them out. It's all about situational awareness. Pay attention to what grid ops are going to be on a pass (monitoring Twitter, Facebook, and the BB prior to a pass are handy for this), listen before you transmit, noting anything that seems rare, and wait to make other QSOs until the rare stations are out of the footprint. And please don't keep calling stations when they are out of the footprint. Learn your geography and/or look at a map, please!
This is how I approached the pass: From monitoring Twitter, I was well aware that there would be two rare rovers on (the two I mentioned before). I did not need FG8OJ in FK95, so I did not call him. However, FL25 is a hole in my map. When I heard C6AWD/MM in FL25, I made my call, worked him, and then didn't attempt any more QSOs until he was out of the footprint (this included not responding to a person that called me).
I know this is not the first time this topic has been raised, but behavior has been especially terrible since the launch of AO-91. Eventually, I and others will be forced to name and shame stations engaged in poor behavior. FM satellites are wonderful in that the simple, inexpensive equipment required to work them opens up the amateur satellite hobby to a large number of people. However, since they are a single channel covering a wide area, they also demand a good amount of situational awareness and courtesy when operating.
73,
Paul, N8HM _______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
There's no need to work a hundred stations on every pass of AO-91, especially when two guys in rare grids with low power equipment are attempting to hand them out. It's all about situational awareness.
I remember situations like this arising during AO-51 operation. Of particular note beside working 100 stations on a 10 minute pass were those fellows on AO-51 with enough aluminum and RF wattage to capture the AO-51 receiver then greet each other every morning like they hadn't spoken for 20 years. They would then give each other a weather report. This was followed with a status of breakfast report. We often found out someone's dog needed to step outside! Then the same 3 or 4 fellows would repeat this again on the next pass. They would begin with the missing-person from 20 years ago greetings ... even though they had already greeted each other 90 minutes ago.
Other operators began note these boorish manners and after a while much of that behavior was gradually moderated and mostly went away.
-- 73 de JoAnne K9JKM k9jkm@amsat.org
Dear Folks:
I certainly don't want to argue with the central premise, i.e., that when there's a rare grid square, it is good operating practice to back off of the bird and let everyone have a crack at working the "DX". Neither do I have a problem with good operating practice dictating that people not hog the bird (as has been described by Paul and other posters). I do have a problem with public shaming, especially if not preceded with a congenial email suggesting that the operator in question give people a chance. Most folks have their email addresses on QRZ.com.
The important thing to remember is that AMSAT hasn't published (to my knowledge) a rule stating that /only/ certain types of QSO's can occur on the FM satellites. I just looked at the website and there is a section called "Working Your First Satellite" and I don't see anything on there like that. The section on "Communications Satellites" has nothing like that either. Unless the control operators of the satellite (e.g., AO-91) made a decision in that vein, then the bird is open to all comers.
Paul's post mentioned that the FM birds open up the hobby to a lot of people. That means the FM birds are going to have new people on them, and I think good operating practice indicates that people are welcomed on satellites, and if they make a mistake, the "suggestion" to improve their operating practice occurs in such a way that they aren't shamed, i.e., a tasteful email or perhaps even a snail mail.
His post also mentioned that he monitored Twitter and took some other steps while preparing for the pass. I have to be honest and say I'm not a big social media person. I only opened up a Facebook page last year, and don't really know or care to know how to get on Twitter. Other than checking when AOS occurs, I typically don't do that much preparation for a pass. I don't think that disqualifies me from being able to operate on the birds. Like I said above, I will back off if I'm aware that there's a rare grid square on there, but I don't always know that's the case. All of us are coming within the footprint of the bird at different times, and so the newest person in the footprint won't always know what's happening at that moment.
I guess the reason why this thread affected me to the point that I felt the need to reply is that I could see the situation degenerating very quickly into a war between two classes of operators. And then, given the nature of FM birds, it will be impossible for anyone to use them (it would be relatively easy for one angry operator to jam the bird during a pass), short of handing out CTSS tone codes to a select group. Until something like that happens, the satellites are a shared resource, and we're always going to be faced with folks who screw up unintentionally. I'd just hate to see a flame war on the birds like we sometimes see on the internet.
I'm not suggesting that satellite operating is "The Wild Wild West". I think it's just a matter of education, and courtesy.
Admittedly, I'm on the FM birds rarely (I've operated AO-91 exactly once). I prefer the linear transponder satellites with their opportunity to have a real conversation as opposed to shouting out grid squares, but recognize (as Adrian points out in his post) that the setup for those birds requires more infrastructure that may be beyond a lot of people. However, I've been around a while (my first satellite QSO was on RS-10 back in 1994) and I remember how excited I was when I made my first QSO's, and know how devastated I would have been if someone called me out in a public forum because I did something wrong that I didn't know was wrong.
All I'm asking for is that all operators in good faith be granted a modicum of courtesy, and we should be careful before deciding that someone is acting in bad faith. I love this hobby and my heart aches at some of the stuff I've heard on 75 meters, and on the local 2 meter repeaters. I'd hate to see that transfer over to the satellite community, which by and large, seems to be pretty professional.
See you all on the birds. 73 de Bernie, KF0QS
On 12/10/2017 11:35 AM, JoAnne Maenpaa wrote:
There's no need to work a hundred stations on every pass of AO-91, especially when two guys in rare grids with low power equipment are attempting to hand them out. It's all about situational awareness.
I remember situations like this arising during AO-51 operation. Of particular note beside working 100 stations on a 10 minute pass were those fellows on AO-51 with enough aluminum and RF wattage to capture the AO-51 receiver then greet each other every morning like they hadn't spoken for 20 years. They would then give each other a weather report. This was followed with a status of breakfast report. We often found out someone's dog needed to step outside! Then the same 3 or 4 fellows would repeat this again on the next pass. They would begin with the missing-person from 20 years ago greetings ... even though they had already greeted each other 90 minutes ago.
Other operators began note these boorish manners and after a while much of that behavior was gradually moderated and mostly went away.
-- 73 de JoAnne K9JKM k9jkm@amsat.org
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Thank you Bernie,
I very much appreciated your post and "cooling" things down.
Well done,
Stefan, VE4NSA
On Sun, Dec 10, 2017 at 3:27 PM, Bernie and Cheryl hamdan@ix.netcom.com wrote:
Dear Folks:
I certainly don't want to argue with the central premise, i.e., that when there's a rare grid square, it is good operating practice to back off of the bird and let everyone have a crack at working the "DX". Neither do I have a problem with good operating practice dictating that people not hog the bird (as has been described by Paul and other posters). I do have a problem with public shaming, especially if not preceded with a congenial email suggesting that the operator in question give people a chance. Most folks have their email addresses on QRZ.com.
The important thing to remember is that AMSAT hasn't published (to my knowledge) a rule stating that /only/ certain types of QSO's can occur on the FM satellites. I just looked at the website and there is a section called "Working Your First Satellite" and I don't see anything on there like that. The section on "Communications Satellites" has nothing like that either. Unless the control operators of the satellite (e.g., AO-91) made a decision in that vein, then the bird is open to all comers.
Paul's post mentioned that the FM birds open up the hobby to a lot of people. That means the FM birds are going to have new people on them, and I think good operating practice indicates that people are welcomed on satellites, and if they make a mistake, the "suggestion" to improve their operating practice occurs in such a way that they aren't shamed, i.e., a tasteful email or perhaps even a snail mail.
His post also mentioned that he monitored Twitter and took some other steps while preparing for the pass. I have to be honest and say I'm not a big social media person. I only opened up a Facebook page last year, and don't really know or care to know how to get on Twitter. Other than checking when AOS occurs, I typically don't do that much preparation for a pass. I don't think that disqualifies me from being able to operate on the birds. Like I said above, I will back off if I'm aware that there's a rare grid square on there, but I don't always know that's the case. All of us are coming within the footprint of the bird at different times, and so the newest person in the footprint won't always know what's happening at that moment.
I guess the reason why this thread affected me to the point that I felt the need to reply is that I could see the situation degenerating very quickly into a war between two classes of operators. And then, given the nature of FM birds, it will be impossible for anyone to use them (it would be relatively easy for one angry operator to jam the bird during a pass), short of handing out CTSS tone codes to a select group. Until something like that happens, the satellites are a shared resource, and we're always going to be faced with folks who screw up unintentionally. I'd just hate to see a flame war on the birds like we sometimes see on the internet.
I'm not suggesting that satellite operating is "The Wild Wild West". I think it's just a matter of education, and courtesy.
Admittedly, I'm on the FM birds rarely (I've operated AO-91 exactly once). I prefer the linear transponder satellites with their opportunity to have a real conversation as opposed to shouting out grid squares, but recognize (as Adrian points out in his post) that the setup for those birds requires more infrastructure that may be beyond a lot of people. However, I've been around a while (my first satellite QSO was on RS-10 back in 1994) and I remember how excited I was when I made my first QSO's, and know how devastated I would have been if someone called me out in a public forum because I did something wrong that I didn't know was wrong.
All I'm asking for is that all operators in good faith be granted a modicum of courtesy, and we should be careful before deciding that someone is acting in bad faith. I love this hobby and my heart aches at some of the stuff I've heard on 75 meters, and on the local 2 meter repeaters. I'd hate to see that transfer over to the satellite community, which by and large, seems to be pretty professional.
See you all on the birds. 73 de Bernie, KF0QS
On 12/10/2017 11:35 AM, JoAnne Maenpaa wrote:
There's no need to work a hundred stations on every pass of AO-91,
especially when two guys in rare grids with low power equipment are attempting to hand them out. It's all about situational awareness.
I remember situations like this arising during AO-51 operation. Of particular note beside working 100 stations on a 10 minute pass were those fellows on AO-51 with enough aluminum and RF wattage to capture the AO-51 receiver then greet each other every morning like they hadn't spoken for 20 years. They would then give each other a weather report. This was followed with a status of breakfast report. We often found out someone's dog needed to step outside! Then the same 3 or 4 fellows would repeat this again on the next pass. They would begin with the missing-person from 20 years ago greetings ... even though they had already greeted each other 90 minutes ago.
Other operators began note these boorish manners and after a while much of that behavior was gradually moderated and mostly went away.
-- 73 de JoAnne K9JKM k9jkm@amsat.org
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
I've not yet gotten on the birds, so I am only an interested observer at this point, but it seemed to me the original complaint (and reference to public shaming) was regarding those rare people who treat the FM birds as their own personal fiefdom on a ongoing basis.
I've not been a ham for a long time, but I know enough to know that sort of behavior is not accidental. It is the result of a willful choice to remain ignorant of good operational practice, or in knowing it, to not bother to use it.
Newbies like me will make our mistakes. But most of us want to learn from them and gladly accept feedback. We WANT to see things from another perspective.
Observing (and occasionally poking our noses out to participate) in these discussions is very educational, but occasionally frustrating because it seems like there is a well-established consensus on how to share these resources within the community, but occasionally we talk past each other on deciding how to approach those who aren't playing as nicely.
Finally, one thought -- just as the DX world has trackers, has anyone at AMSAT or anywhere else thought of putting up a website specifically for satellite operators to notify others if they plan to activate a specific grid or perform some other non-standard activity? Such a website could be tied in with various social media channels to watch for specific hashtags/keywords (so folks already posting have to make one tiny change) and collate the information on the website, both in human-readable and machine readable feeds (so, for example, a pass predictor app could consume that feed and tell you "hey, WA7DLG is going to activate grid XXYZ on this next pass")? Such a setup would take a little bit of work to put together, but with some community user education, it could become a valuable resource *in addition* to the existing methods folks are using. Knowledge is one of the big pieces in combatting the "I didn't know" game and making it as easy to get to, in as many methods as possible, makes it more likely such a resource would be used.
I am certainly willing to volunteer time and resources to host and help develop such a resource if anyone else is interested.
-- Devin L. Ganger (WA7DLG) email: devin@thecabal.org web: Devin on Earth cell: +1 425.239.2575
-----Original Message----- From: AMSAT-BB [mailto:amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org] On Behalf Of Bernie and Cheryl Sent: Sunday, December 10, 2017 1:28 PM To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Behavior on FM Satellites
Dear Folks:
I certainly don't want to argue with the central premise, i.e., that when there's a rare grid square, it is good operating practice to back off of the bird and let everyone have a crack at working the "DX". Neither do I have a problem with good operating practice dictating that people not hog the bird (as has been described by Paul and other posters). I do have a problem with public shaming, especially if not preceded with a congenial email suggesting that the operator in question give people a chance. Most folks have their email addresses on QRZ.com.
The important thing to remember is that AMSAT hasn't published (to my knowledge) a rule stating that /only/ certain types of QSO's can occur on the FM satellites. I just looked at the website and there is a section called "Working Your First Satellite" and I don't see anything on there like that. The section on "Communications Satellites" has nothing like that either. Unless the control operators of the satellite (e.g., AO-91) made a decision in that vein, then the bird is open to all comers.
Paul's post mentioned that the FM birds open up the hobby to a lot of people. That means the FM birds are going to have new people on them, and I think good operating practice indicates that people are welcomed on satellites, and if they make a mistake, the "suggestion" to improve their operating practice occurs in such a way that they aren't shamed, i.e., a tasteful email or perhaps even a snail mail.
His post also mentioned that he monitored Twitter and took some other steps while preparing for the pass. I have to be honest and say I'm not a big social media person. I only opened up a Facebook page last year, and don't really know or care to know how to get on Twitter. Other than checking when AOS occurs, I typically don't do that much preparation for a pass. I don't think that disqualifies me from being able to operate on the birds. Like I said above, I will back off if I'm aware that there's a rare grid square on there, but I don't always know that's the case. All of us are coming within the footprint of the bird at different times, and so the newest person in the footprint won't always know what's happening at that moment.
I guess the reason why this thread affected me to the point that I felt the need to reply is that I could see the situation degenerating very quickly into a war between two classes of operators. And then, given the nature of FM birds, it will be impossible for anyone to use them (it would be relatively easy for one angry operator to jam the bird during a pass), short of handing out CTSS tone codes to a select group. Until something like that happens, the satellites are a shared resource, and we're always going to be faced with folks who screw up unintentionally. I'd just hate to see a flame war on the birds like we sometimes see on the internet.
I'm not suggesting that satellite operating is "The Wild Wild West". I think it's just a matter of education, and courtesy.
Admittedly, I'm on the FM birds rarely (I've operated AO-91 exactly once). I prefer the linear transponder satellites with their opportunity to have a real conversation as opposed to shouting out grid squares, but recognize (as Adrian points out in his post) that the setup for those birds requires more infrastructure that may be beyond a lot of people. However, I've been around a while (my first satellite QSO was on RS-10 back in 1994) and I remember how excited I was when I made my first QSO's, and know how devastated I would have been if someone called me out in a public forum because I did something wrong that I didn't know was wrong.
All I'm asking for is that all operators in good faith be granted a modicum of courtesy, and we should be careful before deciding that someone is acting in bad faith. I love this hobby and my heart aches at some of the stuff I've heard on 75 meters, and on the local 2 meter repeaters. I'd hate to see that transfer over to the satellite community, which by and large, seems to be pretty professional.
See you all on the birds. 73 de Bernie, KF0QS
On 12/10/2017 11:35 AM, JoAnne Maenpaa wrote:
There's no need to work a hundred stations on every pass of AO-91, especially when two guys in rare grids with low power equipment are attempting to hand them out. It's all about situational awareness.
I remember situations like this arising during AO-51 operation. Of particular note beside working 100 stations on a 10 minute pass were those fellows on AO-51 with enough aluminum and RF wattage to capture the AO-51 receiver then greet each other every morning like they hadn't spoken for 20 years. They would then give each other a weather report. This was followed with a status of breakfast report. We often found out someone's dog needed to step outside! Then the same 3 or 4 fellows would repeat this again on the next pass. They would begin with the missing-person from 20 years ago greetings ... even though they had already greeted each other 90 minutes ago.
Other operators began note these boorish manners and after a while much of that behavior was gradually moderated and mostly went away.
-- 73 de JoAnne K9JKM k9jkm@amsat.org
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
_______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Devin,
Many operators that plan roving activity to rare/semi-rare Grids post their plans on the AMSAT-BB and/or AMSAT on Twitter and/or the STARCOM-BB. This as worked well for the dedicated SAT Gridders over the past several years.
Seasoned SAT Ops are aware of these postings and lay in wait for the announced Rovers to show up and work them. On Linear SATs, many of the Rovers will post the downlink freq they will be listening to (approximately) and it will usually be well away from the regular casual QSO freqs. The Gridders easily work the Rovers and the folks looking for regular conversation all share the bandpass with relatively little conflict.
Doing Rover Operations on the FM SATs can be somewhat chaotic due to their being only one freq available. In spite of posting plans for going to rare Grids, there will be operators that aren't interested in Gridding and merely want to have a QSO via Satellite with anyone anywhere just for the thrill of it. On top of that, there will be new/inexperienced folks that are trying SATs but have great difficulty hearing their downlink and keep keying up or speaking and not aware they are QRMing others. The experienced Rovers are used to this and have learned to deal with it and still make QSOs while being careful to utter their expletives while unkeyed.
Given time, the new folks will figure things out and things will get better, but there will continue to be more new folks that follow (hopefully). All we can do is try to lead by example which is no different than what we look for in the Real World.
GL & 73, Bob K8BL (AMSAT #6593, since 1979)
________________________________ From: Devin L. Ganger devin@thecabal.org To: Bernie and Cheryl hamdan@ix.netcom.com; "amsat-bb@amsat.org" amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Sunday, December 10, 2017 6:30 PM Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Behavior on FM Satellites
I've not yet gotten on the birds, so I am only an interested observer at this point, but it seemed to me the original complaint (and reference to public shaming) was regarding those rare people who treat the FM birds as their own personal fiefdom on a ongoing basis.
I've not been a ham for a long time, but I know enough to know that sort of behavior is not accidental. It is the result of a willful choice to remain ignorant of good operational practice, or in knowing it, to not bother to use it.
Newbies like me will make our mistakes. But most of us want to learn from them and gladly accept feedback. We WANT to see things from another perspective.
Observing (and occasionally poking our noses out to participate) in these discussions is very educational, but occasionally frustrating because it seems like there is a well-established consensus on how to share these resources within the community, but occasionally we talk past each other on deciding how to approach those who aren't playing as nicely.
Finally, one thought -- just as the DX world has trackers, has anyone at AMSAT or anywhere else thought of putting up a website specifically for satellite operators to notify others if they plan to activate a specific grid or perform some other non-standard activity? Such a website could be tied in with various social media channels to watch for specific hashtags/keywords (so folks already posting have to make one tiny change) and collate the information on the website, both in human-readable and machine readable feeds (so, for example, a pass predictor app could consume that feed and tell you "hey, WA7DLG is going to activate grid XXYZ on this next pass")? Such a setup would take a little bit of work to put together, but with some community user education, it could become a valuable resource *in addition* to the existing methods folks are using. Knowledge is one of the big pieces in combatting the "I didn't know" game and making it as easy to get to, in as many methods as possible, makes it more likely such a resource would be used.
I am certainly willing to volunteer time and resources to host and help develop such a resource if anyone else is interested.
-- Devin L. Ganger (WA7DLG) email: devin@thecabal.org web: Devin on Earth cell: +1 425.239.2575
Good thoughts on the topic Bernie.
Myself, I don't advocate public calling out and shaming. In fact I don't even recall the callsigns of the AO-51 operators causing difficulties because I don't recall that ever being exposed. It was just the general discussion among the group of the situation which led to operator changes for the better.
-- 73 de JoAnne K9JKM k9jkm@amsat.org
-----Original Message----- From: AMSAT-BB [mailto:amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org] On Behalf Of Bernie and Cheryl Sent: Sunday, December 10, 2017 3:27 PM To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Behavior on FM Satellites
Dear Folks:
I certainly don't want to argue with the central premise, i.e., that when there's a rare grid square, it is good operating practice to back off of the bird and let everyone have a crack at working the "DX". Neither do I have a problem with good operating practice dictating that people not hog the bird (as has been described by Paul and other posters). I do have a problem with public shaming, especially if not preceded with a congenial email suggesting that the operator in question give people a chance. Most folks have their email addresses on QRZ.com.
The important thing to remember is that AMSAT hasn't published (to my knowledge) a rule stating that /only/ certain types of QSO's can occur on the FM satellites. I just looked at the website and there is a section called "Working Your First Satellite" and I don't see anything on there like that. The section on "Communications Satellites" has nothing like that either. Unless the control operators of the satellite (e.g., AO-91) made a decision in that vein, then the bird is open to all comers.
Paul's post mentioned that the FM birds open up the hobby to a lot of people. That means the FM birds are going to have new people on them, and I think good operating practice indicates that people are welcomed on satellites, and if they make a mistake, the "suggestion" to improve their operating practice occurs in such a way that they aren't shamed, i.e., a tasteful email or perhaps even a snail mail.
His post also mentioned that he monitored Twitter and took some other steps while preparing for the pass. I have to be honest and say I'm not a big social media person. I only opened up a Facebook page last year, and don't really know or care to know how to get on Twitter. Other than checking when AOS occurs, I typically don't do that much preparation for a pass. I don't think that disqualifies me from being able to operate on the birds. Like I said above, I will back off if I'm aware that there's a rare grid square on there, but I don't always know that's the case. All of us are coming within the footprint of the bird at different times, and so the newest person in the footprint won't always know what's happening at that moment.
I guess the reason why this thread affected me to the point that I felt the need to reply is that I could see the situation degenerating very quickly into a war between two classes of operators. And then, given the nature of FM birds, it will be impossible for anyone to use them (it would be relatively easy for one angry operator to jam the bird during a pass), short of handing out CTSS tone codes to a select group. Until something like that happens, the satellites are a shared resource, and we're always going to be faced with folks who screw up unintentionally. I'd just hate to see a flame war on the birds like we sometimes see on the internet.
I'm not suggesting that satellite operating is "The Wild Wild West". I think it's just a matter of education, and courtesy.
Admittedly, I'm on the FM birds rarely (I've operated AO-91 exactly once). I prefer the linear transponder satellites with their opportunity to have a real conversation as opposed to shouting out grid squares, but recognize (as Adrian points out in his post) that the setup for those birds requires more infrastructure that may be beyond a lot of people. However, I've been around a while (my first satellite QSO was on RS-10 back in 1994) and I remember how excited I was when I made my first QSO's, and know how devastated I would have been if someone called me out in a public forum because I did something wrong that I didn't know was wrong.
All I'm asking for is that all operators in good faith be granted a modicum of courtesy, and we should be careful before deciding that someone is acting in bad faith. I love this hobby and my heart aches at some of the stuff I've heard on 75 meters, and on the local 2 meter repeaters. I'd hate to see that transfer over to the satellite community, which by and large, seems to be pretty professional.
See you all on the birds. 73 de Bernie, KF0QS
On 12/10/2017 11:35 AM, JoAnne Maenpaa wrote:
There's no need to work a hundred stations on every pass of AO-91, especially when two guys in rare grids with low power equipment are attempting to hand them out. It's all about situational awareness.
I remember situations like this arising during AO-51 operation. Of particular note beside working 100 stations on a 10 minute pass were
those
fellows on AO-51 with enough aluminum and RF wattage to capture the AO-51 receiver then greet each other every morning like they hadn't spoken for
20
years. They would then give each other a weather report. This was
followed
with a status of breakfast report. We often found out someone's dog
needed
to step outside! Then the same 3 or 4 fellows would repeat this again on
the
next pass. They would begin with the missing-person from 20 years ago greetings ... even though they had already greeted each other 90 minutes ago.
Other operators began note these boorish manners and after a while much
of
that behavior was gradually moderated and mostly went away.
-- 73 de JoAnne K9JKM k9jkm@amsat.org
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
Opinions expressed
are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
AMSAT-NA.
Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
program!
Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Thanks Bernie,
I think you hit most of the highpoints. All operating is about courtesy, it should be a highlight for us at all times. However please remember that amateur radio operators are in the hobby for different reasons.
Some folks hang works of art and family photos on the wall, some folks like certificates. Some folks like to have a conversation on the radio, some folks prefer to exchange only callsign, grid and signal and do not wish to talk further. Some folks might be very well technologically connected and choose (or not) to use that connectivity for amateur radio planning, while others may prefer to use amateur radio without being dependant on social media. Some folks sit in a hamshack with multiple radios, computer access, tracking systems and 'plan' their contacts based on a footprint...others stand in the yard with a yagi and two handhelds and just work whomever comes up.
I'm not a contester, but I sure like to pick up a new grid square and more importantly as one who has roved and done satellite work, I like to share them when I can be helpful. The satellites are a limited resource, we need to take turns and let others in.
There have been west coast passes where I've listened to the downlink and I'm the ONLY one on the pass. I've had passes where I could visit with someone a few states away for most of the pass, stopping between comments to ask if anyone else wants in. And I've had passes where I tried for 5 minutes and couldn't squeak my callsign in.
For the most part I think we're all willing to play nice, but certainly we need a reminder and there is no doubt we need to continue educating people how to use satellites.
73 Daron N7HQR CN74
-----Original Message----- From: AMSAT-BB [mailto:amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org] On Behalf Of Bernie and Cheryl Sent: Sunday, December 10, 2017 3:27 PM To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Behavior on FM Satellites
Dear Folks:
I certainly don't want to argue with the central premise, i.e., that when there's a rare grid square, it is good operating practice to back off of the bird and let everyone have a crack at working the "DX". Neither do I have a problem with good operating practice dictating that people not hog the bird (as has been described by Paul and other posters). I do have a problem with public shaming, especially if not preceded with a congenial email suggesting that the operator in question give people a chance. Most folks have their email addresses on
QRZ.com.
The important thing to remember is that AMSAT hasn't published (to my knowledge) a rule stating that /only/ certain types of QSO's can occur on the FM satellites. I just looked at the website and there is a section called "Working Your First Satellite" and I don't see anything on there like that. The section on "Communications Satellites" has nothing like that either. Unless the control operators of the satellite (e.g., AO-91) made a decision in that vein, then the bird is open to all comers.
Paul's post mentioned that the FM birds open up the hobby to a lot of people. That means the FM birds are going to have new people on them, and I think good operating practice indicates that people are welcomed on satellites, and if they make a mistake, the "suggestion" to improve their operating practice occurs in such a way that they aren't shamed, i.e., a tasteful email or perhaps even a snail mail.
His post also mentioned that he monitored Twitter and took some other steps while preparing for the pass. I have to be honest and say I'm not a big social media person. I only opened up a Facebook page last year, and don't really know or care to know how to get on Twitter. Other than checking when AOS occurs, I typically don't do that much preparation for a pass. I don't think that disqualifies me from being able to operate on the birds. Like I said above, I will back off if I'm aware that there's a rare grid square on there, but I don't always know that's the case. All of us are coming within the footprint of the bird at different times, and so the newest person in the footprint won't always know what's happening at that moment.
I guess the reason why this thread affected me to the point that I felt the need to reply is that I could see the situation degenerating very quickly into a war between two classes of operators. And then, given the nature of FM birds, it will be impossible for anyone to use them (it would be relatively easy for one angry operator to jam the bird during a pass), short of handing out CTSS tone codes to a select group. Until something like that happens, the satellites are a shared resource, and we're always going to be faced with folks who screw up
unintentionally.
I'd just hate to see a flame war on the birds like we sometimes see on the internet.
I'm not suggesting that satellite operating is "The Wild Wild West". I think it's just a matter of education, and courtesy.
Admittedly, I'm on the FM birds rarely (I've operated AO-91 exactly once). I prefer the linear transponder satellites with their opportunity to have a real conversation as opposed to shouting out grid squares, but recognize (as Adrian points out in his post) that the setup for those birds requires more infrastructure that may be beyond a lot of people. However, I've been around a while (my first satellite QSO was on RS-10 back in 1994) and I remember how excited I was when I made my first QSO's, and know how devastated I would have been if someone called me out in a public forum because I did something wrong that I didn't know was wrong.
All I'm asking for is that all operators in good faith be granted a modicum of courtesy, and we should be careful before deciding that someone is acting in bad faith. I love this hobby and my heart aches at some of the stuff I've heard on 75 meters, and on the local 2 meter repeaters. I'd hate to see that transfer over to the satellite community, which by and large, seems to be pretty professional.
See you all on the birds. 73 de Bernie, KF0QS
I've got to go with the crowd that thinks poor operating needs to be called out, particularly on the FM birds. The ARRL has called out bad operating publicly in QST since Hiram Percy Maxim's "The Old Man" rants (their words, not mine) - feedback is a gift - and if folks don't call it out, it can't improve. I won't go into the issue of old timers repeatedly chatting on busy FM birds - but will point out there are a number that very patiently wait and listen, and with a very potent signal call newcomers that are trying to have a first QSO or two, making the new guy very happy and setting a good example for everyone. For those that shy from social media - if you were to look - you'd find DX operators severely discouraged by rotten operating, and being fairly vocal about why they don't think it's worth the effort. Adrian's post is yet another example of the same thing. You can't shrug off what's happening with "the kids are new." The kind of behavior that one wrote about, and that I listened to, was several operators in a row calling without anyone waiting for the station called to acknowledge the calling operator. Lack of situational awareness is a kind description of it. Public shamming of a new guy getting his feet wet probably isn't the way to go, but Paul didn't seem to suggest that except as a last resort. Those FM birds are a very scarce resource, put up there by some very dedicated people that spent alot of time and effort to make it happen. They are often available for less than an hour a day each to the entire ham population. People need to actively reach out to folks that need help, in an encouraging way where it's innocent enough, and in a more direct way where it's thoughtless or worse. And we probably have to ask ourselves how it is that new comers show up with so little an idea about what's expected. I can't imagine that happening with anyone from Matt's radio club for example, but if you're encouraging folks to try satellites, make sure you educate them about how to go about it, beyond buying an HT and an Arrow and pointing it up. Rant over. TOM In a message dated 12/10/2017 5:55:27 PM Central Standard Time, daron@wilson.org writes:
Thanks Bernie,
I think you hit most of the highpoints. All operating is about courtesy, it should be a highlight for us at all times. However please remember that amateur radio operators are in the hobby for different reasons.
Some folks hang works of art and family photos on the wall, some folks like certificates. Some folks like to have a conversation on the radio, some folks prefer to exchange only callsign, grid and signal and do not wish to talk further. Some folks might be very well technologically connected and choose (or not) to use that connectivity for amateur radio planning, while others may prefer to use amateur radio without being dependant on social media. Some folks sit in a hamshack with multiple radios, computer access, tracking systems and 'plan' their contacts based on a footprint...others stand in the yard with a yagi and two handhelds and just work whomever comes up.
I'm not a contester, but I sure like to pick up a new grid square and more importantly as one who has roved and done satellite work, I like to share them when I can be helpful. The satellites are a limited resource, we need to take turns and let others in.
There have been west coast passes where I've listened to the downlink and I'm the ONLY one on the pass. I've had passes where I could visit with someone a few states away for most of the pass, stopping between comments to ask if anyone else wants in. And I've had passes where I tried for 5 minutes and couldn't squeak my callsign in.
For the most part I think we're all willing to play nice, but certainly we need a reminder and there is no doubt we need to continue educating people how to use satellites.
73 Daron N7HQR CN74
-----Original Message----- From: AMSAT-BB [mailto:amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org] On Behalf Of Bernie and Cheryl Sent: Sunday, December 10, 2017 3:27 PM To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Behavior on FM Satellites
Dear Folks:
I certainly don't want to argue with the central premise, i.e., that when there's a rare grid square, it is good operating practice to back off of the bird and let everyone have a crack at working the "DX". Neither do I have a problem with good operating practice dictating that people not hog the bird (as has been described by Paul and other posters). I do have a problem with public shaming, especially if not preceded with a congenial email suggesting that the operator in question give people a chance. Most folks have their email addresses on
QRZ.com.
The important thing to remember is that AMSAT hasn't published (to my knowledge) a rule stating that /only/ certain types of QSO's can occur on the FM satellites. I just looked at the website and there is a section called "Working Your First Satellite" and I don't see anything on there like that. The section on "Communications Satellites" has nothing like that either. Unless the control operators of the satellite (e.g., AO-91) made a decision in that vein, then the bird is open to all comers.
Paul's post mentioned that the FM birds open up the hobby to a lot of people. That means the FM birds are going to have new people on them, and I think good operating practice indicates that people are welcomed on satellites, and if they make a mistake, the "suggestion" to improve their operating practice occurs in such a way that they aren't shamed, i.e., a tasteful email or perhaps even a snail mail.
His post also mentioned that he monitored Twitter and took some other steps while preparing for the pass. I have to be honest and say I'm not a big social media person. I only opened up a Facebook page last year, and don't really know or care to know how to get on Twitter. Other than checking when AOS occurs, I typically don't do that much preparation for a pass. I don't think that disqualifies me from being able to operate on the birds. Like I said above, I will back off if I'm aware that there's a rare grid square on there, but I don't always know that's the case. All of us are coming within the footprint of the bird at different times, and so the newest person in the footprint won't always know what's happening at that moment.
I guess the reason why this thread affected me to the point that I felt the need to reply is that I could see the situation degenerating very quickly into a war between two classes of operators. And then, given the nature of FM birds, it will be impossible for anyone to use them (it would be relatively easy for one angry operator to jam the bird during a pass), short of handing out CTSS tone codes to a select group. Until something like that happens, the satellites are a shared resource, and we're always going to be faced with folks who screw up
unintentionally.
I'd just hate to see a flame war on the birds like we sometimes see on the internet.
I'm not suggesting that satellite operating is "The Wild Wild West". I think it's just a matter of education, and courtesy.
Admittedly, I'm on the FM birds rarely (I've operated AO-91 exactly once). I prefer the linear transponder satellites with their opportunity to have a real conversation as opposed to shouting out grid squares, but recognize (as Adrian points out in his post) that the setup for those birds requires more infrastructure that may be beyond a lot of people. However, I've been around a while (my first satellite QSO was on RS-10 back in 1994) and I remember how excited I was when I made my first QSO's, and know how devastated I would have been if someone called me out in a public forum because I did something wrong that I didn't know was wrong.
All I'm asking for is that all operators in good faith be granted a modicum of courtesy, and we should be careful before deciding that someone is acting in bad faith. I love this hobby and my heart aches at some of the stuff I've heard on 75 meters, and on the local 2 meter repeaters. I'd hate to see that transfer over to the satellite community, which by and large, seems to be pretty professional.
See you all on the birds. 73 de Bernie, KF0QS
_______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Please include your Call when posting so we have a clue who you are. TNX/73, Bob K8BL
From: Scott via AMSAT-BB amsat-bb@amsat.org To: daron@wilson.org; hamdan@ix.netcom.com; amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Sunday, December 10, 2017 10:05 PM Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Behavior on FM Satellites
I've got to go with the crowd that thinks poor operating needs to be called out, particularly on the FM birds. The ARRL has called out bad operating publicly in QST since Hiram Percy Maxim's "The Old Man" rants (their words, not mine) - feedback is a gift - and if folks don't call it out, it can't improve. I won't go into the issue of old timers repeatedly chatting on busy FM birds - but will point out there are a number that very patiently wait and listen, and with a very potent signal call newcomers that are trying to have a first QSO or two, making the new guy very happy and setting a good example for everyone. For those that shy from social media - if you were to look - you'd find DX operators severely discouraged by rotten operating, and being fairly vocal about why they don't think it's worth the effort. Adrian's post is yet another example of the same thing. You can't shrug off what's happening with "the kids are new." The kind of behavior that one wrote about, and that I listened to, was several operators in a row calling without anyone waiting for the station called to acknowledge the calling operator. Lack of situational awareness is a kind description of it. Public shamming of a new guy getting his feet wet probably isn't the way to go, but Paul didn't seem to suggest that except as a last resort. Those FM birds are a very scarce resource, put up there by some very dedicated people that spent alot of time and effort to make it happen. They are often available for less than an hour a day each to the entire ham population. People need to actively reach out to folks that need help, in an encouraging way where it's innocent enough, and in a more direct way where it's thoughtless or worse. And we probably have to ask ourselves how it is that new comers show up with so little an idea about what's expected. I can't imagine that happening with anyone from Matt's radio club for example, but if you're encouraging folks to try satellites, make sure you educate them about how to go about it, beyond buying an HT and an Arrow and pointing it up. Rant over. TOM In a message dated 12/10/2017 5:55:27 PM Central Standard Time, daron@wilson.org writes:
Thanks Bernie,
I think you hit most of the highpoints. All operating is about courtesy, it should be a highlight for us at all times. However please remember that amateur radio operators are in the hobby for different reasons.
Some folks hang works of art and family photos on the wall, some folks like certificates. Some folks like to have a conversation on the radio, some folks prefer to exchange only callsign, grid and signal and do not wish to talk further. Some folks might be very well technologically connected and choose (or not) to use that connectivity for amateur radio planning, while others may prefer to use amateur radio without being dependant on social media. Some folks sit in a hamshack with multiple radios, computer access, tracking systems and 'plan' their contacts based on a footprint...others stand in the yard with a yagi and two handhelds and just work whomever comes up.
I'm not a contester, but I sure like to pick up a new grid square and more importantly as one who has roved and done satellite work, I like to share them when I can be helpful. The satellites are a limited resource, we need to take turns and let others in.
There have been west coast passes where I've listened to the downlink and I'm the ONLY one on the pass. I've had passes where I could visit with someone a few states away for most of the pass, stopping between comments to ask if anyone else wants in. And I've had passes where I tried for 5 minutes and couldn't squeak my callsign in.
For the most part I think we're all willing to play nice, but certainly we need a reminder and there is no doubt we need to continue educating people how to use satellites.
73 Daron N7HQR CN74
-----Original Message----- From: AMSAT-BB [mailto:amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org] On Behalf Of Bernie and Cheryl Sent: Sunday, December 10, 2017 3:27 PM To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Behavior on FM Satellites
Dear Folks:
I certainly don't want to argue with the central premise, i.e., that when there's a rare grid square, it is good operating practice to back off of the bird and let everyone have a crack at working the "DX". Neither do I have a problem with good operating practice dictating that people not hog the bird (as has been described by Paul and other posters). I do have a problem with public shaming, especially if not preceded with a congenial email suggesting that the operator in question give people a chance. Most folks have their email addresses on
QRZ.com.
The important thing to remember is that AMSAT hasn't published (to my knowledge) a rule stating that /only/ certain types of QSO's can occur on the FM satellites. I just looked at the website and there is a section called "Working Your First Satellite" and I don't see anything on there like that. The section on "Communications Satellites" has nothing like that either. Unless the control operators of the satellite (e.g., AO-91) made a decision in that vein, then the bird is open to all comers.
Paul's post mentioned that the FM birds open up the hobby to a lot of people. That means the FM birds are going to have new people on them, and I think good operating practice indicates that people are welcomed on satellites, and if they make a mistake, the "suggestion" to improve their operating practice occurs in such a way that they aren't shamed, i.e., a tasteful email or perhaps even a snail mail.
His post also mentioned that he monitored Twitter and took some other steps while preparing for the pass. I have to be honest and say I'm not a big social media person. I only opened up a Facebook page last year, and don't really know or care to know how to get on Twitter. Other than checking when AOS occurs, I typically don't do that much preparation for a pass. I don't think that disqualifies me from being able to operate on the birds. Like I said above, I will back off if I'm aware that there's a rare grid square on there, but I don't always know that's the case. All of us are coming within the footprint of the bird at different times, and so the newest person in the footprint won't always know what's happening at that moment.
I guess the reason why this thread affected me to the point that I felt the need to reply is that I could see the situation degenerating very quickly into a war between two classes of operators. And then, given the nature of FM birds, it will be impossible for anyone to use them (it would be relatively easy for one angry operator to jam the bird during a pass), short of handing out CTSS tone codes to a select group. Until something like that happens, the satellites are a shared resource, and we're always going to be faced with folks who screw up
unintentionally.
I'd just hate to see a flame war on the birds like we sometimes see on the internet.
I'm not suggesting that satellite operating is "The Wild Wild West". I think it's just a matter of education, and courtesy.
Admittedly, I'm on the FM birds rarely (I've operated AO-91 exactly once). I prefer the linear transponder satellites with their opportunity to have a real conversation as opposed to shouting out grid squares, but recognize (as Adrian points out in his post) that the setup for those birds requires more infrastructure that may be beyond a lot of people. However, I've been around a while (my first satellite QSO was on RS-10 back in 1994) and I remember how excited I was when I made my first QSO's, and know how devastated I would have been if someone called me out in a public forum because I did something wrong that I didn't know was wrong.
All I'm asking for is that all operators in good faith be granted a modicum of courtesy, and we should be careful before deciding that someone is acting in bad faith. I love this hobby and my heart aches at some of the stuff I've heard on 75 meters, and on the local 2 meter repeaters. I'd hate to see that transfer over to the satellite community, which by and large, seems to be pretty professional.
See you all on the birds. 73 de Bernie, KF0QS
_______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb _______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
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Thanks Bob, no attempt to hide it - it is my email address right at the top. Scott ka9p In a message dated 12/10/2017 9:27:28 PM Central Standard Time, k8bl@ameritech.net writes:
Please include your Call when posting so we have a clue who you are. TNX/73, Bob K8BL
From: Scott via AMSAT-BB amsat-bb@amsat.org To:daron@wilson.org; hamdan@ix.netcom.com; amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Sunday, December 10, 2017 10:05 PM Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Behavior on FM Satellites
I've got to go with the crowd that thinks poor operating needs to be called out, particularly on the FM birds. The ARRL has called out bad operating publicly in QST since Hiram Percy Maxim's "The Old Man" rants (their words, not mine) - feedback is a gift - and if folks don't call it out, it can't improve. I won't go into the issue of old timers repeatedly chatting on busy FM birds - but will point out there are a number that very patiently wait and listen, and with a very potent signal call newcomers that are trying to have a first QSO or two, making the new guy very happy and setting a good example for everyone. For those that shy from social media - if you were to look - you'd find DX operators severely discouraged by rotten operating, and being fairly vocal about why they don't think it's worth the effort. Adrian's post is yet another example of the same thing. You can't shrug off what's happening with "the kids are new." The kind of behavior that one wrote about, and that I listened to, was several operators in a row calling without anyone waiting for the station called to acknowledge the calling operator. Lack of situational awareness is a kind description of it. Public shamming of a new guy getting his feet wet probably isn't the way to go, but Paul didn't seem to suggest that except as a last resort. Those FM birds are a very scarce resource, put up there by some very dedicated people that spent alot of time and effort to make it happen. They are often available for less than an hour a day each to the entire ham population. People need to actively reach out to folks that need help, in an encouraging way where it's innocent enough, and in a more direct way where it's thoughtless or worse. And we probably have to ask ourselves how it is that new comers show up with so little an idea about what's expected. I can't imagine that happening with anyone from Matt's radio club for example, but if you're encouraging folks to try satellites, make sure you educate them about how to go about it, beyond buying an HT and an Arrow and pointing it up. Rant over. TOM In a message dated 12/10/2017 5:55:27 PM Central Standard Time, daron@wilson.org writes:
Thanks Bernie,
I think you hit most of the highpoints. All operating is about courtesy, it should be a highlight for us at all times. However please remember that amateur radio operators are in the hobby for different reasons.
Some folks hang works of art and family photos on the wall, some folks like certificates. Some folks like to have a conversation on the radio, some folks prefer to exchange only callsign, grid and signal and do not wish to talk further. Some folks might be very well technologically connected and choose (or not) to use that connectivity for amateur radio planning, while others may prefer to use amateur radio without being dependant on social media. Some folks sit in a hamshack with multiple radios, computer access, tracking systems and 'plan' their contacts based on a footprint...others stand in the yard with a yagi and two handhelds and just work whomever comes up.
I'm not a contester, but I sure like to pick up a new grid square and more importantly as one who has roved and done satellite work, I like to share them when I can be helpful. The satellites are a limited resource, we need to take turns and let others in.
There have been west coast passes where I've listened to the downlink and I'm the ONLY one on the pass. I've had passes where I could visit with someone a few states away for most of the pass, stopping between comments to ask if anyone else wants in. And I've had passes where I tried for 5 minutes and couldn't squeak my callsign in.
For the most part I think we're all willing to play nice, but certainly we need a reminder and there is no doubt we need to continue educating people how to use satellites.
73 Daron N7HQR CN74
-----Original Message----- From: AMSAT-BB [mailto:amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org] On Behalf Of Bernie and Cheryl Sent: Sunday, December 10, 2017 3:27 PM To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Behavior on FM Satellites
Dear Folks:
I certainly don't want to argue with the central premise, i.e., that when there's a rare grid square, it is good operating practice to back off of the bird and let everyone have a crack at working the "DX". Neither do I have a problem with good operating practice dictating that people not hog the bird (as has been described by Paul and other posters). I do have a problem with public shaming, especially if not preceded with a congenial email suggesting that the operator in question give people a chance. Most folks have their email addresses on
QRZ.com.
The important thing to remember is that AMSAT hasn't published (to my knowledge) a rule stating that /only/ certain types of QSO's can occur on the FM satellites. I just looked at the website and there is a section called "Working Your First Satellite" and I don't see anything on there like that. The section on "Communications Satellites" has nothing like that either. Unless the control operators of the satellite (e.g., AO-91) made a decision in that vein, then the bird is open to all comers.
Paul's post mentioned that the FM birds open up the hobby to a lot of people. That means the FM birds are going to have new people on them, and I think good operating practice indicates that people are welcomed on satellites, and if they make a mistake, the "suggestion" to improve their operating practice occurs in such a way that they aren't shamed, i.e., a tasteful email or perhaps even a snail mail.
His post also mentioned that he monitored Twitter and took some other steps while preparing for the pass. I have to be honest and say I'm not a big social media person. I only opened up a Facebook page last year, and don't really know or care to know how to get on Twitter. Other than checking when AOS occurs, I typically don't do that much preparation for a pass. I don't think that disqualifies me from being able to operate on the birds. Like I said above, I will back off if I'm aware that there's a rare grid square on there, but I don't always know that's the case. All of us are coming within the footprint of the bird at different times, and so the newest person in the footprint won't always know what's happening at that moment.
I guess the reason why this thread affected me to the point that I felt the need to reply is that I could see the situation degenerating very quickly into a war between two classes of operators. And then, given the nature of FM birds, it will be impossible for anyone to use them (it would be relatively easy for one angry operator to jam the bird during a pass), short of handing out CTSS tone codes to a select group. Until something like that happens, the satellites are a shared resource, and we're always going to be faced with folks who screw up
unintentionally.
I'd just hate to see a flame war on the birds like we sometimes see on the internet.
I'm not suggesting that satellite operating is "The Wild Wild West". I think it's just a matter of education, and courtesy.
Admittedly, I'm on the FM birds rarely (I've operated AO-91 exactly once). I prefer the linear transponder satellites with their opportunity to have a real conversation as opposed to shouting out grid squares, but recognize (as Adrian points out in his post) that the setup for those birds requires more infrastructure that may be beyond a lot of people. However, I've been around a while (my first satellite QSO was on RS-10 back in 1994) and I remember how excited I was when I made my first QSO's, and know how devastated I would have been if someone called me out in a public forum because I did something wrong that I didn't know was wrong.
All I'm asking for is that all operators in good faith be granted a modicum of courtesy, and we should be careful before deciding that someone is acting in bad faith. I love this hobby and my heart aches at some of the stuff I've heard on 75 meters, and on the local 2 meter repeaters. I'd hate to see that transfer over to the satellite community, which by and large, seems to be pretty professional.
See you all on the birds. 73 de Bernie, KF0QS
_______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb _______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
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Scott via AMSAT-BB? Not seeing a call sign.
-----Original Message----- From: Scott via AMSAT-BB Sent: Sunday, December 10, 2017 9:28 PM To: k8bl@ameritech.net ; daron@wilson.org ; hamdan@ix.netcom.com ; amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Behavior on FM Satellites
Thanks Bob, no attempt to hide it - it is my email address right at the top.
Scott ka9p
In a message dated 12/10/2017 9:27:28 PM Central Standard Time, k8bl@ameritech.net writes:
Please include your Call when posting so we have a clue who you are.
TNX/73, Bob K8BL
Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
WTH? This msg was sent 12/10 at 10:05 PM. WHY is it just coming out NOW - 4 DAYS LATER? ? ? ? ? ? Bob K8BL
From: R.T.Liddy k8bl@ameritech.net To: "ka9p@aol.com" ka9p@aol.com; "daron@wilson.org" daron@wilson.org; "hamdan@ix.netcom.com" hamdan@ix.netcom.com; "amsat-bb@amsat.org" amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2017 6:47 PM Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Behavior on FM Satellites
Please include your Call when posting so we have a clue who you are. TNX/73, Bob K8BL
From: Scott via AMSAT-BB amsat-bb@amsat.org To: daron@wilson.org; hamdan@ix.netcom.com; amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Sunday, December 10, 2017 10:05 PM Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Behavior on FM Satellites I've got to go with the crowd that thinks poor operating needs to be called out, particularly on the FM birds. The ARRL has called out bad operating publicly in QST since Hiram Percy Maxim's "The Old Man" rants (their words, not mine) - feedback is a gift - and if folks don't call it out, it can't improve. I won't go into the issue of old timers repeatedly chatting on busy FM birds - but will point out there are a number that very patiently wait and listen, and with a very potent signal call newcomers that are trying to have a first QSO or two, making the new guy very happy and setting a good example for everyone. For those that shy from social media - if you were to look - you'd find DX operators severely discouraged by rotten operating, and being fairly vocal about why they don't think it's worth the effort. Adrian's post is yet another example of the same thing. You can't shrug off what's happening with "the kids are new." The kind of behavior that one wrote about, and that I listened to, was several operators in a row calling without anyone waiting for the station called to acknowledge the calling operator. Lack of situational awareness is a kind description of it. Public shamming of a new guy getting his feet wet probably isn't the way to go, but Paul didn't seem to suggest that except as a last resort. Those FM birds are a very scarce resource, put up there by some very dedicated people that spent alot of time and effort to make it happen. They are often available for less than an hour a day each to the entire ham population. People need to actively reach out to folks that need help, in an encouraging way where it's innocent enough, and in a more direct way where it's thoughtless or worse. And we probably have to ask ourselves how it is that new comers show up with so little an idea about what's expected. I can't imagine that happening with anyone from Matt's radio club for example, but if you're encouraging folks to try satellites, make sure you educate them about how to go about it, beyond buying an HT and an Arrow and pointing it up. Rant over. TOM In a message dated 12/10/2017 5:55:27 PM Central Standard Time, daron@wilson.org writes:
Thanks Bernie,
I think you hit most of the highpoints. All operating is about courtesy, it should be a highlight for us at all times. However please remember that amateur radio operators are in the hobby for different reasons.
Some folks hang works of art and family photos on the wall, some folks like certificates. Some folks like to have a conversation on the radio, some folks prefer to exchange only callsign, grid and signal and do not wish to talk further. Some folks might be very well technologically connected and choose (or not) to use that connectivity for amateur radio planning, while others may prefer to use amateur radio without being dependant on social media. Some folks sit in a hamshack with multiple radios, computer access, tracking systems and 'plan' their contacts based on a footprint...others stand in the yard with a yagi and two handhelds and just work whomever comes up.
I'm not a contester, but I sure like to pick up a new grid square and more importantly as one who has roved and done satellite work, I like to share them when I can be helpful. The satellites are a limited resource, we need to take turns and let others in.
There have been west coast passes where I've listened to the downlink and I'm the ONLY one on the pass. I've had passes where I could visit with someone a few states away for most of the pass, stopping between comments to ask if anyone else wants in. And I've had passes where I tried for 5 minutes and couldn't squeak my callsign in.
For the most part I think we're all willing to play nice, but certainly we need a reminder and there is no doubt we need to continue educating people how to use satellites.
73 Daron N7HQR CN74
-----Original Message----- From: AMSAT-BB [mailto:amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org] On Behalf Of Bernie and Cheryl Sent: Sunday, December 10, 2017 3:27 PM To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Behavior on FM Satellites
Dear Folks:
I certainly don't want to argue with the central premise, i.e., that when there's a rare grid square, it is good operating practice to back off of the bird and let everyone have a crack at working the "DX". Neither do I have a problem with good operating practice dictating that people not hog the bird (as has been described by Paul and other posters). I do have a problem with public shaming, especially if not preceded with a congenial email suggesting that the operator in question give people a chance. Most folks have their email addresses on
QRZ.com.
The important thing to remember is that AMSAT hasn't published (to my knowledge) a rule stating that /only/ certain types of QSO's can occur on the FM satellites. I just looked at the website and there is a section called "Working Your First Satellite" and I don't see anything on there like that. The section on "Communications Satellites" has nothing like that either. Unless the control operators of the satellite (e.g., AO-91) made a decision in that vein, then the bird is open to all comers.
Paul's post mentioned that the FM birds open up the hobby to a lot of people. That means the FM birds are going to have new people on them, and I think good operating practice indicates that people are welcomed on satellites, and if they make a mistake, the "suggestion" to improve their operating practice occurs in such a way that they aren't shamed, i.e., a tasteful email or perhaps even a snail mail.
His post also mentioned that he monitored Twitter and took some other steps while preparing for the pass. I have to be honest and say I'm not a big social media person. I only opened up a Facebook page last year, and don't really know or care to know how to get on Twitter. Other than checking when AOS occurs, I typically don't do that much preparation for a pass. I don't think that disqualifies me from being able to operate on the birds. Like I said above, I will back off if I'm aware that there's a rare grid square on there, but I don't always know that's the case. All of us are coming within the footprint of the bird at different times, and so the newest person in the footprint won't always know what's happening at that moment.
I guess the reason why this thread affected me to the point that I felt the need to reply is that I could see the situation degenerating very quickly into a war between two classes of operators. And then, given the nature of FM birds, it will be impossible for anyone to use them (it would be relatively easy for one angry operator to jam the bird during a pass), short of handing out CTSS tone codes to a select group. Until something like that happens, the satellites are a shared resource, and we're always going to be faced with folks who screw up
unintentionally.
I'd just hate to see a flame war on the birds like we sometimes see on the internet.
I'm not suggesting that satellite operating is "The Wild Wild West". I think it's just a matter of education, and courtesy.
Admittedly, I'm on the FM birds rarely (I've operated AO-91 exactly once). I prefer the linear transponder satellites with their opportunity to have a real conversation as opposed to shouting out grid squares, but recognize (as Adrian points out in his post) that the setup for those birds requires more infrastructure that may be beyond a lot of people. However, I've been around a while (my first satellite QSO was on RS-10 back in 1994) and I remember how excited I was when I made my first QSO's, and know how devastated I would have been if someone called me out in a public forum because I did something wrong that I didn't know was wrong.
All I'm asking for is that all operators in good faith be granted a modicum of courtesy, and we should be careful before deciding that someone is acting in bad faith. I love this hobby and my heart aches at some of the stuff I've heard on 75 meters, and on the local 2 meter repeaters. I'd hate to see that transfer over to the satellite community, which by and large, seems to be pretty professional.
See you all on the birds. 73 de Bernie, KF0QS
_______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb _______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
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I share your sentiment last about, and have (I think) done as much as anyone could to reach out to new sat ops, bringing new guys to this aspect of the hobby. But, they aren’t the ones who have been causing such headaches on AO-91 (and the other FM birds). The ones that Paul and others have talked about “calling out” are ops who have been around for a long time, many who have made thousands and thousands of sat QSOs. Sadly, they are accomplishing the opposite of what I and others have been trying to do as far as bringing new guys to the sats.. I know at least one newer op who I’ve worked with, who pretty much refuses to work FM sats because he doesn’t want to throw his callsign out into the fray caused by inconsiderate operators.
In all but a few cases, the new ops I’ve worked with have been enthusiast, eager to learn and willing to listen to advice from people who are skilled at satellite operating. However, the more experienced ops that have been causing so much trouble don’t do any of those things, even after numerous polite emails etc. They will not make basic improvements to their station, and don’t even exhibit the most basic good practice that applies to ANY amateur operating - like listening before transmitting.
Social media isn’t required for people to use common sense while operating. Just be polite, don’t tie up a pass. I can remember my first few SO-50 passes getting started on sats last year. I worked N6UA who was somewhere in the middle of nowhere in Wyoming I think. I called him - because I had listened to the pass (without transmitting) for a few minutes, and noticed a lot of people calling him. I figured that was a good sign he was someone I wanted to work even though I had no idea who or where he was! Contrast that to certain stations in the Northeast US who, rather than listening first and allowing the guy who is in a rare location make contacts, instead call literally every person they hear on the pass - including if the person they call was actually trying to call someone else!
Just some thoughts from a guy who was listening to the pass in question :-)
73, - Matthew nj4y
Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 10, 2017, at 16:27, Bernie and Cheryl hamdan@ix.netcom.com wrote:
Dear Folks:
I certainly don't want to argue with the central premise, i.e., that when there's a rare grid square, it is good operating practice to back off of the bird and let everyone have a crack at working the "DX". Neither do I have a problem with good operating practice dictating that people not hog the bird (as has been described by Paul and other posters). I do have a problem with public shaming, especially if not preceded with a congenial email suggesting that the operator in question give people a chance. Most folks have their email addresses on QRZ.com.
The important thing to remember is that AMSAT hasn't published (to my knowledge) a rule stating that /only/ certain types of QSO's can occur on the FM satellites. I just looked at the website and there is a section called "Working Your First Satellite" and I don't see anything on there like that. The section on "Communications Satellites" has nothing like that either. Unless the control operators of the satellite (e.g., AO-91) made a decision in that vein, then the bird is open to all comers.
Paul's post mentioned that the FM birds open up the hobby to a lot of people. That means the FM birds are going to have new people on them, and I think good operating practice indicates that people are welcomed on satellites, and if they make a mistake, the "suggestion" to improve their operating practice occurs in such a way that they aren't shamed, i.e., a tasteful email or perhaps even a snail mail.
His post also mentioned that he monitored Twitter and took some other steps while preparing for the pass. I have to be honest and say I'm not a big social media person. I only opened up a Facebook page last year, and don't really know or care to know how to get on Twitter. Other than checking when AOS occurs, I typically don't do that much preparation for a pass. I don't think that disqualifies me from being able to operate on the birds. Like I said above, I will back off if I'm aware that there's a rare grid square on there, but I don't always know that's the case. All of us are coming within the footprint of the bird at different times, and so the newest person in the footprint won't always know what's happening at that moment.
I guess the reason why this thread affected me to the point that I felt the need to reply is that I could see the situation degenerating very quickly into a war between two classes of operators. And then, given the nature of FM birds, it will be impossible for anyone to use them (it would be relatively easy for one angry operator to jam the bird during a pass), short of handing out CTSS tone codes to a select group. Until something like that happens, the satellites are a shared resource, and we're always going to be faced with folks who screw up unintentionally. I'd just hate to see a flame war on the birds like we sometimes see on the internet.
I'm not suggesting that satellite operating is "The Wild Wild West". I think it's just a matter of education, and courtesy.
Admittedly, I'm on the FM birds rarely (I've operated AO-91 exactly once). I prefer the linear transponder satellites with their opportunity to have a real conversation as opposed to shouting out grid squares, but recognize (as Adrian points out in his post) that the setup for those birds requires more infrastructure that may be beyond a lot of people. However, I've been around a while (my first satellite QSO was on RS-10 back in 1994) and I remember how excited I was when I made my first QSO's, and know how devastated I would have been if someone called me out in a public forum because I did something wrong that I didn't know was wrong.
All I'm asking for is that all operators in good faith be granted a modicum of courtesy, and we should be careful before deciding that someone is acting in bad faith. I love this hobby and my heart aches at some of the stuff I've heard on 75 meters, and on the local 2 meter repeaters. I'd hate to see that transfer over to the satellite community, which by and large, seems to be pretty professional.
See you all on the birds. 73 de Bernie, KF0QS
On 12/10/2017 11:35 AM, JoAnne Maenpaa wrote:
There's no need to work a hundred stations on every pass of AO-91, especially when two guys in rare grids with low power equipment are attempting to hand them out. It's all about situational awareness.
I remember situations like this arising during AO-51 operation. Of particular note beside working 100 stations on a 10 minute pass were those fellows on AO-51 with enough aluminum and RF wattage to capture the AO-51 receiver then greet each other every morning like they hadn't spoken for 20 years. They would then give each other a weather report. This was followed with a status of breakfast report. We often found out someone's dog needed to step outside! Then the same 3 or 4 fellows would repeat this again on the next pass. They would begin with the missing-person from 20 years ago greetings ... even though they had already greeted each other 90 minutes ago.
Other operators began note these boorish manners and after a while much of that behavior was gradually moderated and mostly went away.
-- 73 de JoAnne K9JKM k9jkm@amsat.org
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I want to further elaborate on Matt's point he just made. I'm very likely the number one suspect when talk of 'calling out' people comes up - and I fully admit to it as well. I am also quite often accused of 'noob bashing' for the comments I've made on the BB and the different social media platforms. With very few notable exceptions, the people I've called out have been hams longer than I have been alive, let alone operating on satellites. I've only had my ticket for 3 1/2 years, so by most accounts I'm just as 'noob' as the folks that think they're under perceived attack when the other 'class' of operators make comments about bad operating etiquette.
So, let me just say this - as plainly as I can for everyone to see: New operators are not the problem. A clear majority of the rovers are 'newer' operators, both in AMSAT and in Ham in general. I was given my 488th CONUS grid by a guy who is FM only, had been operating a few months, and was working me from a rare grid *on an anniversary trip* with his wife. That is the kind of dedication ONLY a die hard new guy will have. The new operators are the ones that flock to social media for the latest gear reviews and camaraderie with other ops. They're the ones asking about whether an arrow or an elk is best, and what kind of radios to buy. They're the ones pushing the vendors to build new stuff, and keeping the used market alive for Satellite rigs. And they're the ones that are *really* active on the birds. I would dare say the majority of the ops that I work on a regular basis have been doing sats for less time than me, and that's great. I love it - so much new blood is constantly changing things every day and that keeps it exciting. New operators rock. I sincerely mean that.
On the flip side, you have a class of operator that "has been doing this since sputnik" and thinks the current fleet of LEO's needs an AO-13 class array to be successful. This class of op might also run 100W into an Omni, cause that's the only way they can 'hear' their owns beeps coming down off of AO-7, which they might have watched get launched, and will tell you about when you send them an email asking why they're running so much power. This class of op might also be amazed that they can actually hear the newly launched AO-91 using their radio shack rg174 coax fed eggbeater, and is excited to talk to the same neighbor day after day, because it's the first bird since AO-51 they can brute force their way into with the power that they're obligated to run since they've been a ham for 20 years. I have yet to run into a new ham that has caused AO-7 to reset with an arrow and a pair of Baofengs, yet I can name 5 old hams right off the top of my head that do it pretty much consistently, in every year since I've been operating. This kind of op is the problem. And I will not hesitate to (continue) to call these kinds of bad apples out for their deliberate interference with this hobby.
-Dave, KG5CCI
I should have maybe added one other thing, just to clarify that you don’t have to be plugged into social media or even be sitting in front of a computer to operate courteously..
With the exception of I think 8 QSOs while visiting the shack of one of the guys who helped get me started on sats, and using his well-equipped automated station - all of my ~1900 satellite qsos since September 2016 were made standing outside in my yard or along the side of the road with an arrow antenna in my hand and manually tuning an HT, FT-817, or icom 821. I use my phone to tell me when passes are coming up and that’s it. And I know many, many other extremely active operators that do the same thing.
So you don’t really have to do anything other than LISTEN in order to play along nicely with other people on the birds!
73, and here’s to good operators!
- Matthew nj4y
Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 10, 2017, at 17:42, Matthew Stevens matthew@mrstevens.net wrote:
I share your sentiment last about, and have (I think) done as much as anyone could to reach out to new sat ops, bringing new guys to this aspect of the hobby. But, they aren’t the ones who have been causing such headaches on AO-91 (and the other FM birds). The ones that Paul and others have talked about “calling out” are ops who have been around for a long time, many who have made thousands and thousands of sat QSOs. Sadly, they are accomplishing the opposite of what I and others have been trying to do as far as bringing new guys to the sats.. I know at least one newer op who I’ve worked with, who pretty much refuses to work FM sats because he doesn’t want to throw his callsign out into the fray caused by inconsiderate operators.
In all but a few cases, the new ops I’ve worked with have been enthusiast, eager to learn and willing to listen to advice from people who are skilled at satellite operating. However, the more experienced ops that have been causing so much trouble don’t do any of those things, even after numerous polite emails etc. They will not make basic improvements to their station, and don’t even exhibit the most basic good practice that applies to ANY amateur operating - like listening before transmitting.
Social media isn’t required for people to use common sense while operating. Just be polite, don’t tie up a pass. I can remember my first few SO-50 passes getting started on sats last year. I worked N6UA who was somewhere in the middle of nowhere in Wyoming I think. I called him - because I had listened to the pass (without transmitting) for a few minutes, and noticed a lot of people calling him. I figured that was a good sign he was someone I wanted to work even though I had no idea who or where he was! Contrast that to certain stations in the Northeast US who, rather than listening first and allowing the guy who is in a rare location make contacts, instead call literally every person they hear on the pass - including if the person they call was actually trying to call someone else!
Just some thoughts from a guy who was listening to the pass in question :-)
73,
- Matthew nj4y
Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 10, 2017, at 16:27, Bernie and Cheryl hamdan@ix.netcom.com wrote:
Dear Folks:
I certainly don't want to argue with the central premise, i.e., that when there's a rare grid square, it is good operating practice to back off of the bird and let everyone have a crack at working the "DX". Neither do I have a problem with good operating practice dictating that people not hog the bird (as has been described by Paul and other posters). I do have a problem with public shaming, especially if not preceded with a congenial email suggesting that the operator in question give people a chance. Most folks have their email addresses on QRZ.com.
The important thing to remember is that AMSAT hasn't published (to my knowledge) a rule stating that /only/ certain types of QSO's can occur on the FM satellites. I just looked at the website and there is a section called "Working Your First Satellite" and I don't see anything on there like that. The section on "Communications Satellites" has nothing like that either. Unless the control operators of the satellite (e.g., AO-91) made a decision in that vein, then the bird is open to all comers.
Paul's post mentioned that the FM birds open up the hobby to a lot of people. That means the FM birds are going to have new people on them, and I think good operating practice indicates that people are welcomed on satellites, and if they make a mistake, the "suggestion" to improve their operating practice occurs in such a way that they aren't shamed, i.e., a tasteful email or perhaps even a snail mail.
His post also mentioned that he monitored Twitter and took some other steps while preparing for the pass. I have to be honest and say I'm not a big social media person. I only opened up a Facebook page last year, and don't really know or care to know how to get on Twitter. Other than checking when AOS occurs, I typically don't do that much preparation for a pass. I don't think that disqualifies me from being able to operate on the birds. Like I said above, I will back off if I'm aware that there's a rare grid square on there, but I don't always know that's the case. All of us are coming within the footprint of the bird at different times, and so the newest person in the footprint won't always know what's happening at that moment.
I guess the reason why this thread affected me to the point that I felt the need to reply is that I could see the situation degenerating very quickly into a war between two classes of operators. And then, given the nature of FM birds, it will be impossible for anyone to use them (it would be relatively easy for one angry operator to jam the bird during a pass), short of handing out CTSS tone codes to a select group. Until something like that happens, the satellites are a shared resource, and we're always going to be faced with folks who screw up unintentionally. I'd just hate to see a flame war on the birds like we sometimes see on the internet.
I'm not suggesting that satellite operating is "The Wild Wild West". I think it's just a matter of education, and courtesy.
Admittedly, I'm on the FM birds rarely (I've operated AO-91 exactly once). I prefer the linear transponder satellites with their opportunity to have a real conversation as opposed to shouting out grid squares, but recognize (as Adrian points out in his post) that the setup for those birds requires more infrastructure that may be beyond a lot of people. However, I've been around a while (my first satellite QSO was on RS-10 back in 1994) and I remember how excited I was when I made my first QSO's, and know how devastated I would have been if someone called me out in a public forum because I did something wrong that I didn't know was wrong.
All I'm asking for is that all operators in good faith be granted a modicum of courtesy, and we should be careful before deciding that someone is acting in bad faith. I love this hobby and my heart aches at some of the stuff I've heard on 75 meters, and on the local 2 meter repeaters. I'd hate to see that transfer over to the satellite community, which by and large, seems to be pretty professional.
See you all on the birds. 73 de Bernie, KF0QS
On 12/10/2017 11:35 AM, JoAnne Maenpaa wrote:
There's no need to work a hundred stations on every pass of AO-91, especially when two guys in rare grids with low power equipment are attempting to hand them out. It's all about situational awareness.
I remember situations like this arising during AO-51 operation. Of particular note beside working 100 stations on a 10 minute pass were those fellows on AO-51 with enough aluminum and RF wattage to capture the AO-51 receiver then greet each other every morning like they hadn't spoken for 20 years. They would then give each other a weather report. This was followed with a status of breakfast report. We often found out someone's dog needed to step outside! Then the same 3 or 4 fellows would repeat this again on the next pass. They would begin with the missing-person from 20 years ago greetings ... even though they had already greeted each other 90 minutes ago.
Other operators began note these boorish manners and after a while much of that behavior was gradually moderated and mostly went away.
-- 73 de JoAnne K9JKM k9jkm@amsat.org
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Paul, Well stated! Unfortunately that is often the state of affairs on the FM satellites, but not always. I believe we need a combination of community mentoring the new ops and perhaps reminding the more experienced ops to back off and let newer ops get the contact when there are rare grid rover operations in effect. I agree the repeated contacts by fixed stations is frankly getting out of hand. What is benefit? When a pass is dead late at night, have at it; when rovers are in the field lets show some situational awareness of letting others get that grid.
Unfortunately I have experienced this time and again over the many vacations from Cayman and other locations on the FM satellites. Between the South American taxis, illegal cordless phones, the keyer uppers/whistlers and the regulars working each other over and over again, it just makes you think, why do I even bother to give out a grid that many operators with modest stations really need when you can't even get into the satellite. That is one of the major reasons I hardly bothered to operate on FM when I last operated from EK99 and FK09 from Grand Cayman and Little Cayman in June. I only operated on one SO-50 pass when I was briefly in FK09. On a bright note, the passes on the linear satellites were quick, professional and courteous. They were actually enjoyable passes despite the horrible mosquito infestation this year. It was still worth it. I fully understand a linear setup is not in the budget for many operators.
I have a big dilemma, I plan on going back end of February for two weeks to GC and LC and with AO-91 now live, there will surely be a demand for EK99 from FM only operators. So the big question, should I even bother taking satellite gear with me as I am already taking my new IC-7300 with me to work HF? Is it worth going through the aggravation of another lid-fest from a DX grid? I have even given thought of only taking my newly acquired TH-D74 instead of dragging 2 x FT-817's and only working some ISS passes on APRS. I don't think anybody has done that before from ZF. I know of some local ops that periodically get on the FM satellites.
I am open to hearing thoughts from the AMSAT Community's , trying to find a good reason why I should even bother this time around. Ultimately my vacation and relaxation comes first.
73, Adrian AA5UK - ZF2AE
On Sunday, December 10, 2017, 12:07:47 PM CST, Paul Stoetzer n8hm@arrl.net wrote:
Good afternoon,
During the last AO-91 pass, there were many interesting stations on, but in particular there were two low power rovers in rare grids: FG8OJ was in FK95 and C6AWD/MM (AC0RA) was in FL25 (an entirely wet grid that the ship will only be in for a short period of time).
Yet, even while those two were in the footprint, stations were calling other fixed stations that they can work on any pass of any satellite, day or night. Right now, we have 14 satellites where you can make a QSO with a guy next door. There's no need to work a hundred stations on every pass of AO-91, especially when two guys in rare grids with low power equipment are attempting to hand them out. It's all about situational awareness. Pay attention to what grid ops are going to be on a pass (monitoring Twitter, Facebook, and the BB prior to a pass are handy for this), listen before you transmit, noting anything that seems rare, and wait to make other QSOs until the rare stations are out of the footprint. And please don't keep calling stations when they are out of the footprint. Learn your geography and/or look at a map, please!
This is how I approached the pass: From monitoring Twitter, I was well aware that there would be two rare rovers on (the two I mentioned before). I did not need FG8OJ in FK95, so I did not call him. However, FL25 is a hole in my map. When I heard C6AWD/MM in FL25, I made my call, worked him, and then didn't attempt any more QSOs until he was out of the footprint (this included not responding to a person that called me).
I know this is not the first time this topic has been raised, but behavior has been especially terrible since the launch of AO-91. Eventually, I and others will be forced to name and shame stations engaged in poor behavior. FM satellites are wonderful in that the simple, inexpensive equipment required to work them opens up the amateur satellite hobby to a large number of people. However, since they are a single channel covering a wide area, they also demand a good amount of situational awareness and courtesy when operating.
73,
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Paul while I agree whole heartily with your intent your bed side manor could stand improvement.
73,s
Jim Beeson WA5QAP
On Dec 10, 2017, at 12:05 PM, Paul Stoetzer n8hm@arrl.net wrote:
Good afternoon,
During the last AO-91 pass, there were many interesting stations on, but in particular there were two low power rovers in rare grids: FG8OJ was in FK95 and C6AWD/MM (AC0RA) was in FL25 (an entirely wet grid that the ship will only be in for a short period of time).
Yet, even while those two were in the footprint, stations were calling other fixed stations that they can work on any pass of any satellite, day or night. Right now, we have 14 satellites where you can make a QSO with a guy next door. There's no need to work a hundred stations on every pass of AO-91, especially when two guys in rare grids with low power equipment are attempting to hand them out. It's all about situational awareness. Pay attention to what grid ops are going to be on a pass (monitoring Twitter, Facebook, and the BB prior to a pass are handy for this), listen before you transmit, noting anything that seems rare, and wait to make other QSOs until the rare stations are out of the footprint. And please don't keep calling stations when they are out of the footprint. Learn your geography and/or look at a map, please!
This is how I approached the pass: From monitoring Twitter, I was well aware that there would be two rare rovers on (the two I mentioned before). I did not need FG8OJ in FK95, so I did not call him. However, FL25 is a hole in my map. When I heard C6AWD/MM in FL25, I made my call, worked him, and then didn't attempt any more QSOs until he was out of the footprint (this included not responding to a person that called me).
I know this is not the first time this topic has been raised, but behavior has been especially terrible since the launch of AO-91. Eventually, I and others will be forced to name and shame stations engaged in poor behavior. FM satellites are wonderful in that the simple, inexpensive equipment required to work them opens up the amateur satellite hobby to a large number of people. However, since they are a single channel covering a wide area, they also demand a good amount of situational awareness and courtesy when operating.
73,
Paul, N8HM _______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Even the nicest doctors can get blunt when a patient doesn't listen to repeated admonishments for over two decades!
73,
Paul, N8HM
On Mon, Dec 11, 2017 at 12:54 PM, Jim Beeson jim@beeson.cc wrote:
Paul while I agree whole heartily with your intent your bed side manor could stand improvement.
73,s
Jim Beeson WA5QAP
On Dec 10, 2017, at 12:05 PM, Paul Stoetzer n8hm@arrl.net wrote:
Good afternoon,
During the last AO-91 pass, there were many interesting stations on, but in particular there were two low power rovers in rare grids: FG8OJ was in FK95 and C6AWD/MM (AC0RA) was in FL25 (an entirely wet grid that the ship will only be in for a short period of time).
Yet, even while those two were in the footprint, stations were calling other fixed stations that they can work on any pass of any satellite, day or night. Right now, we have 14 satellites where you can make a QSO with a guy next door. There's no need to work a hundred stations on every pass of AO-91, especially when two guys in rare grids with low power equipment are attempting to hand them out. It's all about situational awareness. Pay attention to what grid ops are going to be on a pass (monitoring Twitter, Facebook, and the BB prior to a pass are handy for this), listen before you transmit, noting anything that seems rare, and wait to make other QSOs until the rare stations are out of the footprint. And please don't keep calling stations when they are out of the footprint. Learn your geography and/or look at a map, please!
This is how I approached the pass: From monitoring Twitter, I was well aware that there would be two rare rovers on (the two I mentioned before). I did not need FG8OJ in FK95, so I did not call him. However, FL25 is a hole in my map. When I heard C6AWD/MM in FL25, I made my call, worked him, and then didn't attempt any more QSOs until he was out of the footprint (this included not responding to a person that called me).
I know this is not the first time this topic has been raised, but behavior has been especially terrible since the launch of AO-91. Eventually, I and others will be forced to name and shame stations engaged in poor behavior. FM satellites are wonderful in that the simple, inexpensive equipment required to work them opens up the amateur satellite hobby to a large number of people. However, since they are a single channel covering a wide area, they also demand a good amount of situational awareness and courtesy when operating.
73,
Paul, N8HM _______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
I would like to help, with other operators participation, compile a how-to for working sats.
Wiki? Google docs? GitHub?
I can host a wiki instance (or others CMS) if needed. My time is otherwise fairly constrained, but I am happy to pitch in where I am able.
Thoughts?
Brad WF7T
There's a draft document circulating now. Stay tuned!
73,
Paul, N8HM
On Mon, Dec 11, 2017 at 2:01 PM, Brad Brooks brad.wf7t@gmail.com wrote:
I would like to help, with other operators participation, compile a how-to for working sats.
Wiki? Google docs? GitHub?
I can host a wiki instance (or others CMS) if needed. My time is otherwise fairly constrained, but I am happy to pitch in where I am able.
Thoughts?
Brad WF7T
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
participants (17)
-
Adrian Engele -
Bernie and Cheryl -
Brad Brooks -
Daron Wilson -
David Swanson -
Devin L. Ganger -
Glenn Miller - AA5PK -
Jack Chomley -
Jim Beeson -
JoAnne K9JKM -
JoAnne Maenpaa -
ka9p＠aol.com -
Matthew Stevens -
Mike Thompson -
Paul Stoetzer -
R.T.Liddy -
Stefan Wagener