Only if people end this nearly useless thread. This ground is so beaten down it is not funny. Member dues and most of their donations do not buy a single component. But to live to fight another day and to keep "those who can" thinking about things to do for those "those who use" and even "those who mostly whine and do nothing at all except whine" these member donations are vital to the organization's health.
The amsat organization is undergoing some reorg. Lots of different faces on the board and different faces in engineering even with our inability to get a significant launch speaks well for the potential of the organization.
I think personally that those who complain should go stand in front of the mirror and ask themselves
1) what have I personally done for the organization lately? 2) follow that with "Am I part of the problem or the solution?"
Bob LM N4HY
------Original Message------ From: Randy Sender: amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org To: amsat bb ReplyTo: RSwart1@twcny.rr.com Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Volunteered Sent: Sep 10, 2009 10:46 PM
Bruce filled me in on where a lot of the "donations" go..
Couple others beat me up .. LOL
So is there a win-win on this topic ?
Randy
_______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
The usefulness of this thread is coming to the end. However, whether or not some people believe it, the thread has definitely served a useful purpose. For example, the problem with the broken link for volunteering has been reportedly fixed. Also, a number of other problems within the organization are now "seeing the light of day" and, with the attention brought to them, there is a very good chance that solutions will be found.
I know that certain individuals have taken the comments personally and those individuals are no longer a "happy camper". But, the end result is that the various comments have resulted in some very positive things and that is certainly beneficial.
Glen, K9STH AMSAT 239 / LM 463
Website: http://k9sth.com
--- On Fri, 9/11/09, rwmcgwier@gmail.com rwmcgwier@gmail.com wrote:
Only if people end this nearly useless thread. This ground is so beaten down it is not funny. Member dues and most of their donations do not buy a single component. But to live to fight another day and to keep "those who can" thinking about things to do for those "those who use" and even "those who mostly whine and do nothing at all except whine" these member donations are vital to the organization's health.
The amsat organization is undergoing some reorg. Lots of different faces on the board and different faces in engineering even with our inability to get a significant launch speaks well for the potential of the organization.
I think personally that those who complain should go stand in front of the mirror and ask themselves
1) what have I personally done for the organization lately? 2) follow that with "Am I part of the problem or the solution?"
Bob,When they stand in front of the mirror, it will break
WB5EKU
On Fri, Sep 11, 2009 at 5:50 AM, rwmcgwier@gmail.com wrote:
Only if people end this nearly useless thread. This ground is so beaten down it is not funny. Member dues and most of their donations do not buy a single component. But to live to fight another day and to keep "those who can" thinking about things to do for those "those who use" and even "those who mostly whine and do nothing at all except whine" these member donations are vital to the organization's health.
The amsat organization is undergoing some reorg. Lots of different faces on the board and different faces in engineering even with our inability to get a significant launch speaks well for the potential of the organization.
I think personally that those who complain should go stand in front of the mirror and ask themselves
- what have I personally done for the organization lately?
- follow that with "Am I part of the problem or the solution?"
Bob LM N4HY
------Original Message------ From: Randy Sender: amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org To: amsat bb ReplyTo: RSwart1@twcny.rr.com Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Volunteered Sent: Sep 10, 2009 10:46 PM
Bruce filled me in on where a lot of the "donations" go..
Couple others beat me up .. LOL
So is there a win-win on this topic ?
Randy
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
crickey
don't tell the hubble people that
---------------------------------------------------------- Andrew Rich Airways Technical Officer Grade 4 Surveillance - RADAR ADS-B Amateur Radio Callsign VK4TEC email: vk4tec@tech-software.net web: www.tech-software.net ----- Original Message ----- From: "Donald Jacob" wb5eku@gmail.com To: rwmcgwier@gmail.com Cc: RSwart1@twcny.rr.com; "amsat bb" amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Saturday, September 12, 2009 4:15 AM Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Volunteered
Bob,When they stand in front of the mirror, it will break
WB5EKU
On Fri, Sep 11, 2009 at 5:50 AM, rwmcgwier@gmail.com wrote:
Only if people end this nearly useless thread. This ground is so beaten down it is not funny. Member dues and most of their donations do not buy a single component. But to live to fight another day and to keep "those who can" thinking about things to do for those "those who use" and even "those who mostly whine and do nothing at all except whine" these member donations are vital to the organization's health.
The amsat organization is undergoing some reorg. Lots of different faces on the board and different faces in engineering even with our inability to get a significant launch speaks well for the potential of the organization.
I think personally that those who complain should go stand in front of the mirror and ask themselves
- what have I personally done for the organization lately?
- follow that with "Am I part of the problem or the solution?"
Bob LM N4HY
------Original Message------ From: Randy Sender: amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org To: amsat bb ReplyTo: RSwart1@twcny.rr.com Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Volunteered Sent: Sep 10, 2009 10:46 PM
Bruce filled me in on where a lot of the "donations" go..
Couple others beat me up .. LOL
So is there a win-win on this topic ?
Randy
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
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Actually no. What happens (in the case of Hubble) is people who asked annoying questions like "is the mirror ground correctly" were told about the same thing...ie sit down and shut up.
Same thing with the Mars proble where they got the "units" off and reentered the thing.
People who ask questions which the leadership does not want to hear are frequently sent out with the same lines Bob uses. Ask the people at NASA who said "what damage did the foam do when it hit the orbiter." Linda Ham had just about Bob's answers.
Robert WB5MZO
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2009 11:15:34 -0700 From: wb5eku@gmail.com To: rwmcgwier@gmail.com CC: RSwart1@twcny.rr.com; amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Volunteered
Bob,When they stand in front of the mirror, it will break
WB5EKU
On Fri, Sep 11, 2009 at 5:50 AM, rwmcgwier@gmail.com wrote:
Only if people end this nearly useless thread. This ground is so beaten down it is not funny. Member dues and most of their donations do not buy a single component. But to live to fight another day and to keep "those who can" thinking about things to do for those "those who use" and even "those who mostly whine and do nothing at all except whine" these member donations are vital to the organization's health.
The amsat organization is undergoing some reorg. Lots of different faces on the board and different faces in engineering even with our inability to get a significant launch speaks well for the potential of the organization.
I think personally that those who complain should go stand in front of the mirror and ask themselves
- what have I personally done for the organization lately?
- follow that with "Am I part of the problem or the solution?"
Bob LM N4HY
------Original Message------ From: Randy Sender: amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org To: amsat bb ReplyTo: RSwart1@twcny.rr.com Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Volunteered Sent: Sep 10, 2009 10:46 PM
Bruce filled me in on where a lot of the "donations" go..
Couple others beat me up .. LOL
So is there a win-win on this topic ?
Randy
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
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I've been following this thread passively until now, so brace yourself because I have quite a few things to say. I'm 28 and a reasonably new ham, KJ4JIO (you can look me up but it may require a few mouse clicks...). I'm still very new to Amsat and don't know many of you by name or face yet (and that's probably for the better). I've had the opportunity to meet a couple of you here in Orlando, chatting to a few of you through email and talking to some of you over the phone.
I first heard about Amsat here in Orlando at a LMARS meeting, where one of your members put on a satellite communications demo. This was quite possible one of the coolest experiences of my life. Before this, I had no idea that there were so many amateur satellites up in the sky available for use. I had no clue that with minimal equipment I could use them. How cool is that, really!?! I didn't know any of this was possible for me to get involved in at any level. Maybe it's just another day at the job for some of you but it's definitely not for me (i'm a bored software guy at work). At the demo, I noticed that the presenter was putting on the presentation:
- on his own time - with his own equipment - for well over an hour long - probably after a lengthy drive - had an enthusiastic attitude - didn't complain that the pass was on the horizon and difficult to work
If it wasn't for this voluntary effort, I wouldn't be here right now :-)
That's my history, now on to my main point. It seems like most of the bitter sentiment on the thread has been targeted at the amsat website, it's production, how things get done, etc... In my experience in software, being pissed off at something opens up an excellent opportunity for corrective action. I get pissed of at code all the time, maybe my code, other peoples code, doesn't matter... I complain about it, make fun of it, laugh at it for a few seconds, and when i'm done doing that I *FIX IT*.
Last night, I spoke to Gould about the history of the website and some related things to get a feel for why things are the way they are. I have also been gathering ideas and suggestions from various interested parties on the bb. I put together my own list of complaints* in addition to descriptions of what I would do to improve each of them*. I set up a prototype mediawiki server, although i've retired it and am attempting to see if Joomla would be a little more user friendly on the composition end of things. There are definitely wheels spinning in an effort to improve the situation. The reality of the website situation is what always happens in the software world: - software gets outdated - it becomes to hard to maintain - people move on to other things - the END USER SUFFERS Please note, i'm not criticizing anyones work on the website here. I'm certain they did they best with the resources and time they had available when the work was being done. I'm convinced what we're experiencing here is a standard software development life cycle issue, which should not take much work to improve.
If you have website suggestions, i'd encourage you please pass them on. By suggestion, I mean something more helpful than "the website sucks". A good example is this: "Instead of having a Tools, Status and Passes link off the main page, make one button called "Satellite Tracking" and put all these types of things within it. This would help clean up the main page a bit".
I'm very interested (and I know others are too) in getting this type of input and feedback.
Thank You, Joseph Armbrruster, KJ4JIO
On Fri, Sep 11, 2009 at 2:33 PM, Rocky Jones orbitjet@hotmail.com wrote:
Actually no. What happens (in the case of Hubble) is people who asked annoying questions like "is the mirror ground correctly" were told about the same thing...ie sit down and shut up.
Same thing with the Mars proble where they got the "units" off and reentered the thing.
People who ask questions which the leadership does not want to hear are frequently sent out with the same lines Bob uses. Ask the people at NASA who said "what damage did the foam do when it hit the orbiter." Linda Ham had just about Bob's answers.
Robert WB5MZO
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2009 11:15:34 -0700 From: wb5eku@gmail.com To: rwmcgwier@gmail.com CC: RSwart1@twcny.rr.com; amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Volunteered
Bob,When they stand in front of the mirror, it will break
WB5EKU
On Fri, Sep 11, 2009 at 5:50 AM, rwmcgwier@gmail.com wrote:
Only if people end this nearly useless thread. This ground is so
beaten
down it is not funny. Member dues and most of their donations do not
buy a
single component. But to live to fight another day and to keep "those
who
can" thinking about things to do for those "those who use" and even
"those
who mostly whine and do nothing at all except whine" these member
donations
are vital to the organization's health.
The amsat organization is undergoing some reorg. Lots of different
faces on
the board and different faces in engineering even with our inability to
get
a significant launch speaks well for the potential of the organization.
I think personally that those who complain should go stand in front of
the
mirror and ask themselves
- what have I personally done for the organization lately?
- follow that with "Am I part of the problem or the solution?"
Bob LM N4HY
------Original Message------ From: Randy Sender: amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org To: amsat bb ReplyTo: RSwart1@twcny.rr.com Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Volunteered Sent: Sep 10, 2009 10:46 PM
Bruce filled me in on where a lot of the "donations" go..
Couple others beat me up .. LOL
So is there a win-win on this topic ?
Randy
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the
author.
Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
program!
Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the
author.
Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
program!
Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
program!
Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
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Bob
What has been remarkable about this thread, is that it has shown how dysfunctional AMSAT NA is.
Forget satelllite construction etc...people point out problems with the web site and next thing you have is someone explaining who can and cannot comment on the state of the organization (to paraphrase "we dont need weak volunteers who are discouraged by no real method of being able to volunteer one has to earn the right to be critical...")
Forget the ability to answer serious questions like (and I know its annoying) "how was the suitsat 2 program allowed to not meet the ability to use the "suits".
And from what I can tell no one has a clue why Suitsat 1 failed (I know it was a glorious success by just deploying) much less how to avoid a repeat of that with a much more complicated followon which is now functionally a new satellite.
And of course the whole concept of board meetings which really are not is entertaining.
The answers are "you cannot criticize "us" we are working 16 to 18 hour days doing things that no one else will do"...
and then one wonders why donations are at an all time low.
Robert WB5MZO Amsat NA life member
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Robert,
Hurling questions and accusations is easy, but, doesn't seem to help. Keeping up with what's going on (the information IS available) and PARTICIPATING in the work will provide a solid platform from which to speak.
Dive in!
And, let's try to keep the discussion constructive.
73, art..... W4ART/3 Washington DC LM 113
On 11-Sep-2009, at 2:30 PM, Rocky Jones wrote:
Bob
What has been remarkable about this thread, is that it has shown how dysfunctional AMSAT NA is.
Forget satelllite construction etc...people point out problems with the web site and next thing you have is someone explaining who can and cannot comment on the state of the organization (to paraphrase "we dont need weak volunteers who are discouraged by no real method of being able to volunteer one has to earn the right to be critical...")
Forget the ability to answer serious questions like (and I know its annoying) "how was the suitsat 2 program allowed to not meet the ability to use the "suits".
And from what I can tell no one has a clue why Suitsat 1 failed (I know it was a glorious success by just deploying) much less how to avoid a repeat of that with a much more complicated followon which is now functionally a new satellite.
And of course the whole concept of board meetings which really are not is entertaining.
The answers are "you cannot criticize "us" we are working 16 to 18 hour days doing things that no one else will do"...
and then one wonders why donations are at an all time low.
Robert WB5MZO Amsat NA life member
Windows Live: Keep your friends up to date with what you do online. http://windowslive.com/Campaign/SocialNetworking?ocid=PID23285::T:WLMTAGL:ON... _______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
What we can do is to live out our lives as best we can with purpose, and with love, and with joy. We can use each day to show those who are closest to us how much we care about them, and treat others with the kindness and respect that we wish for ourselves. We can learn from our mistakes and grow from our failures. And we can strive at all costs to make a better world, so that someday, if we are blessed with the chance to look back on our time here, we know that we spent it well; that we made a difference; that our fleeting presence had a lasting impact on the lives of others. - Barak Obama, 29 Aug 2009
Rocky Jones wrote:
Bob
What has been remarkable about this thread, is that it has shown how dysfunctional AMSAT NA is.
Forget satelllite
It's satellite - by the way! construction etc...people point out problems with the web site and next thing you have is someone explaining who can and cannot comment on the state of the organization (to paraphrase "we dont need weak volunteers who are discouraged by no real method of being able to volunteer one has to earn the right to be critical...")
Forget the ability to answer serious questions like (and I know its annoying) As a team memb"how was the suitsat 2 program allowed to not meet the ability to use the "suits".
As a SuitSat team member, I gave you a brief answer offline and offered to get more detail if you so desired. You didn't respond. It's obvious to me that you really don't want an answer, You just want to be a boring, broken record.
So I'll repeat the simple answer, here, why we missed the suit launch. Listen up.
The SuitSat team is made up entirely of volunteers who have real jobs, families, and other responsibilities. Hey, we're just pursuing our Amateur radio HOBBY - not a professional job. Some of you folks talk like we're a Loral or Lockheed. Did you critics forget that Amateur radio satellites are a hobby - not a business?
Well, by golly, along the way technical challenges delayed progress. Jobs and families got in the way. Son of a gun - we missed schedules. I'm not offering excuses, just offering the reality of having folks on the team that aren't getting paid for their fantastic efforts.
Sure, it's not nice to have technical issues show up or to miss schedules but in the scheme of things, what have we lost - except maybe creditability in YOUR eyes. We now have a new satellite structure more suited for what we are trying to do technically - called ARRISat.
The way you've been carrying on, I am so very glad we don't have you volunteering - even to stuff envelopes. You'd probably say that we were doing that wrong too. Personally, I thought that refunding your AMSAT life membership would make me feel better, but on further reflection, AMSAT should just keep your money since it is helping fund efforts to serve it's members who appreciate what volunteers are trying to do for them and their hobby.
And if you think any of your comments have caused the ARRISat team to miss a beat on the way to our 2010 launch, then think again. This team has tackled and solved technical challenges more significant for the future of AMSAT and its members, than ANY of the issues you raise.
Regards...Bill - N6GHz
And from what I can tell no one has a clue why Suitsat 1 failed (I know it was a glorious success by just deploying) much less how to avoid a repeat of that with a much more complicated followon which is now functionally a new satellite.
And of course the whole concept of board meetings which really are not is entertaining.
The answers are "you cannot criticize "us" we are working 16 to 18 hour days doing things that no one else will do"...
and then one wonders why donations are at an all time low.
Robert WB5MZO Amsat NA life member
Windows Live: Keep your friends up to date with what you do online. http://windowslive.com/Campaign/SocialNetworking?ocid=PID23285::T:WLMTAGL:ON... _______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Bill. I think I owe you the favor of an apology, if you sent me something off line and I didnt reply to it. Sorry.
I will check back and make sure that 1) it didnt by accident go into junk mail and 2) I just didnt miss it in the regular folders.
We had quite a crush of email over the last few weeks...my wife and I had shotgunned out a "we are pregnant" email...and I might have just missed it.
I'll look for it tonight...
Robert WB5MZO
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2009 12:38:32 -0700 From: bill@hsmicrowave.com To: orbitjet@hotmail.com CC: rwmcgwier@gmail.com; rswart1@twcny.rr.com; amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Re: Volunteered
Rocky Jones wrote:
Bob
What has been remarkable about this thread, is that it has shown how dysfunctional AMSAT NA is.
Forget satelllite
It's satellite - by the way! construction etc...people point out problems with the web site and next thing you have is someone explaining who can and cannot comment on the state of the organization (to paraphrase "we dont need weak volunteers who are discouraged by no real method of being able to volunteer one has to earn the right to be critical...")
Forget the ability to answer serious questions like (and I know its annoying) As a team memb"how was the suitsat 2 program allowed to not meet the ability to use the "suits".
As a SuitSat team member, I gave you a brief answer offline and offered to get more detail if you so desired. You didn't respond. It's obvious to me that you really don't want an answer, You just want to be a boring, broken record.
So I'll repeat the simple answer, here, why we missed the suit launch. Listen up.
The SuitSat team is made up entirely of volunteers who have real jobs, families, and other responsibilities. Hey, we're just pursuing our Amateur radio HOBBY - not a professional job. Some of you folks talk like we're a Loral or Lockheed. Did you critics forget that Amateur radio satellites are a hobby - not a business?
Well, by golly, along the way technical challenges delayed progress. Jobs and families got in the way. Son of a gun - we missed schedules. I'm not offering excuses, just offering the reality of having folks on the team that aren't getting paid for their fantastic efforts.
Sure, it's not nice to have technical issues show up or to miss schedules but in the scheme of things, what have we lost - except maybe creditability in YOUR eyes. We now have a new satellite structure more suited for what we are trying to do technically - called ARRISat.
The way you've been carrying on, I am so very glad we don't have you volunteering - even to stuff envelopes. You'd probably say that we were doing that wrong too. Personally, I thought that refunding your AMSAT life membership would make me feel better, but on further reflection, AMSAT should just keep your money since it is helping fund efforts to serve it's members who appreciate what volunteers are trying to do for them and their hobby.
And if you think any of your comments have caused the ARRISat team to miss a beat on the way to our 2010 launch, then think again. This team has tackled and solved technical challenges more significant for the future of AMSAT and its members, than ANY of the issues you raise.
Regards...Bill - N6GHz
And from what I can tell no one has a clue why Suitsat 1 failed (I know it was a glorious success by just deploying) much less how to avoid a repeat of that with a much more complicated followon which is now functionally a new satellite.
And of course the whole concept of board meetings which really are not is entertaining.
The answers are "you cannot criticize "us" we are working 16 to 18 hour days doing things that no one else will do"...
and then one wonders why donations are at an all time low.
Robert WB5MZO Amsat NA life member
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Bill. As I noted earlier I do owe you the favor of an apology. You did send me an email and regretfully it got routed where I did not see it....
I read your piece(s).
What to say. You folks bit off more then you could chew and missed a deadline. That is a foundation of project management no matter if it is paid or unpaid. Try and explain it all one wants it means someone (or group) is not capable of good project management.
I assume that you and the team are confident you can make the next deployment dates...?
Robert WB5MZO
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Hello Rocky,
Apology accepted.
Well, you are indeed fully entitled to your opinion, but I would submit that until you walk in the shoes of the ARRISat team members who are busting their pick to try and do the right thing for the members, maybe, just maybe, you should temper your judgment about their abilities and short comings given that without their very best intentioned efforts you'd have nothing to complain about and Amateurs wouldn't have a new satellite to look forward to. If our best efforts are not considered to be good enough by a few, we are encouraged by the many out there, who still cheer us on. And since those cheering far out number our detractors, then Robert, the ARRISat team is moving full speed ahead without you on our side.
Yes, you have assumed correctly, that it is our plan to proceed to the deployment date with confidence.
Regards...Bill - N6GHz
Rocky Jones wrote:
Bill. As I noted earlier I do owe you the favor of an apology. You did send me an email and regretfully it got routed where I did not see it....
I read your piece(s).
What to say. You folks bit off more then you could chew and missed a deadline. That is a foundation of project management no matter if it is paid or unpaid. Try and explain it all one wants it means someone (or group) is not capable of good project management.
I assume that you and the team are confident you can make the next deployment dates...?
Robert WB5MZO
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Bill
Apology accepted.
thanks...sorry still sorting the email out after coming home...
but I would submit
that until you walk in the shoes of the ARRISat team members who are busting their pick to try and do the right thing for the members, maybe, just maybe, you should temper your judgment about their abilities and short comings given that without their very best intentioned efforts you'd have nothing to complain about and Amateurs wouldn't have a new satellite to look forward to.
OH I am cheering for you I just dont think that the group has much chance of success and that if it comes it will be more the product of "random chance" then good project management.
Which I dont think AMSAT has much of.
There are no "shoes" to walk in. Really there are not. Volunteering is the same if you are the kid who mows the church yard to the doctor who volunteers at a clinic for folks without health insurance. The act is a individual one that is made after considering all the mandatory obligations that one has...and once you do that then until one terminates the voluntary work (again because in part the mandatory obligation might get to much) then the job is no different then what one is getting "wages" for....one either does it or one doesnt one manages it correctly or one doesnt...
and past that everything else is as the good Baron use to say "twaddle".
The facts are that coming off a failure of a relatively simple project the group chose a much more complicated path and was unable to complete it in the time allotted.
Now the group is stuck with a much more difficult task...
Everything after that is just excuses (space is hard, no one is doing this but us, one cannot understand this or that until they do it....etc)
A much more prudent approach, one with more success built in would have been to analyze the failure, figure out the weak points, correct those and then try flying "that" or something slightly more complicated.
at least that is how it is done in test flying...
But here on the board I am told that space is so much harder...dont worry that word comes down a lot in Southern Houston.
good luck you folks will need it
Robert WB5MZO
_________________________________________________________________ Ready for Fall shows? Use Bing to find helpful ratings and reviews on digital tv's. http://www.bing.com/shopping/search?q=digital+tv%27s&form=MSHNCB&pub...
Rocky Jones:
I just dont think that the group has much chance of success and that if it comes it will be more the product of "random chance" then good project management.
Yep, it sure is random chance on how we get our launches and what we then build to match those chances.. And now that we understand how much better you think we could do it, will you just get out of the way then and just quit ankle biting all those who are trying. There is no such thing as "good project mamagement" in an all volunteer effort where all the critical work gets done by techincally skilled and motivated volunteers.
Which I dont think AMSAT has much of.
And thank heavens. The last thing we need is a bunch of clueless managers and self appointed monday quarterbacks giving rudder orders and putting road blocks and undermining forward progress and wearing everyone down in the process.
A much more prudent approach, one with more success built in would have been to analyze the failure, figure out the weak points, correct those and then try flying "that" or something slightly more complicated. at least that is how it is done in test flying...
Where everyone is paid big bucks, where that is their full time job, and where they have the money and resources to do it that way. I'm talking MILLIONS. Whereas we have practically nothing, but good honest hard working volunteers, saddled with ten times as many arm-chair ankle biters and complainers who incessantly wear eaveryone down with their self-richeous kibitzing...
good luck you folks will need it
Yes, and part of the reason we need it is because of the never ending criticism of self-appointed kibitzers that just robs everyone of the will to move forward...
Bob
Bob with all due respect that is more chaff then an ALE47 puts out...
Yep, it sure is random chance on how we get our launches and what we then build to match those chances.. And now that we understand how much better you think we could do it,
Launches dont have anything to do with suitsat 2 except that the folks building the project "missed" one a free one, one that was there...
and then you crank up the old "well you can do it better"...oh comeone. Actually I never said I could. come on try and stay on the topic.
But this is the entertaining one. I wrote:
A much more prudent approach, one with more success built in would have been to analyze the failure, figure out the weak points, correct those and then try flying "that" or something slightly more complicated. at least that is how it is done in test flying...
you replied...
Where everyone is paid big bucks, where that is their full time job, and where they have the money and resources to do it that way. I'm talking MILLIONS. Whereas we have practically nothing, but good honest hard working volunteers, saddled with ten times as many arm-chair ankle biters and complainers who incessantly wear eaveryone down with their self-richeous kibitzing...
so good engineering/management principles ones that they teach at all good engineering schools including the one you are at....
require mega bucks?
OK so when my wifes classmate (both Canoe U grads) does her free clinic she should say "Heh folks this is free so I dont have to do good medical practices"?
Just taking a break...we are putting up the 60X60 chickenwire screen to keep the hawks out of the coup and provide a good ground plane for the vertical.
Space is hard
take care
Robert WB5MZO,
_________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/171222984/direct/01/
Chiming in, after watching this go back and forth and feeling frustrated here.
The issue here is about holding volunteers accountable as if they were paid staff. It's about expectations as well.
Noone is questioning whether the volunteers worked their butts off. What we're talking about is that the AMSAT community (at least some, anyway) have an expectation of performance equivalent to what would be provided by full-time paid staff. Well, as long as it's volunteers only, that expectation is not reasonable (IMHO). None of the volunteers can provide that kind of support day-in and day-out. Holding volunteers to that standard is, in my opinion, a mistake.
Having said that, what AMSAT volunteers have accomplished is SO FAR ABOVE what a normal volunteer organization achieves, that it BOGGLES THE MIND. I have been an AMSAT member for 18 months and active on satellites for about as long. To see what has been achieved by volunteers, spanning across geography, is AMAZING. The ability to ask ANY question about satellites in general and AMSAT in particular on this BB, and get an accurate response in a timely fashion is impressive. The collective intellectual capital and horsepower is deep and very valuable.
And THAT'S the issue! We're so accustomed to outstanding performance on so many things with AMSAT that we start *expecting* above and beyond in all cases. That's not always realistic.
I had a few 1:1 threads with some folks about this over the past few days, and I think we could address some of the problems if we had a paid position or two. I understand that this is being presented to the ARRL in the near future (additional funding support)
Another side note: it sounds like more communication/interaction would help clarify some of these questions and concerns. Regular status reporting on progress for specific projects would help the community understand: (1) the progress (2) the risks (3) the level of effort provided by the volunteers (4) opportunities for additional input for addressing problems (leveraging some of that powerful intellectual capital and horsepower in our community).
Meanwhile, as a project manager w/ PMP cert, Electrical Engineer, and a 35 year ham with military background, I am raising my hand as a volunteer for helping with the planning of future AMSAT projects
Mark Lunday WD4ELG Hillsborough, NC - FM06kb wd4elg@arrl.net http://wd4elg.net http://wd4elg.blogspot.com
Hi Mark,
Thanks for your comments and your offer to volunteer.
Why don't you contact me off line and we can talk about your specific interests.
Regards...Bill - N6GHz
Mark Lunday wrote:
Chiming in, after watching this go back and forth and feeling frustrated here.
The issue here is about holding volunteers accountable as if they were paid staff. It's about expectations as well.
Noone is questioning whether the volunteers worked their butts off. What we're talking about is that the AMSAT community (at least some, anyway) have an expectation of performance equivalent to what would be provided by full-time paid staff. Well, as long as it's volunteers only, that expectation is not reasonable (IMHO). None of the volunteers can provide that kind of support day-in and day-out. Holding volunteers to that standard is, in my opinion, a mistake.
Having said that, what AMSAT volunteers have accomplished is SO FAR ABOVE what a normal volunteer organization achieves, that it BOGGLES THE MIND. I have been an AMSAT member for 18 months and active on satellites for about as long. To see what has been achieved by volunteers, spanning across geography, is AMAZING. The ability to ask ANY question about satellites in general and AMSAT in particular on this BB, and get an accurate response in a timely fashion is impressive. The collective intellectual capital and horsepower is deep and very valuable.
And THAT'S the issue! We're so accustomed to outstanding performance on so many things with AMSAT that we start *expecting* above and beyond in all cases. That's not always realistic.
I had a few 1:1 threads with some folks about this over the past few days, and I think we could address some of the problems if we had a paid position or two. I understand that this is being presented to the ARRL in the near future (additional funding support)
Another side note: it sounds like more communication/interaction would help clarify some of these questions and concerns. Regular status reporting on progress for specific projects would help the community understand: (1) the progress (2) the risks (3) the level of effort provided by the volunteers (4) opportunities for additional input for addressing problems (leveraging some of that powerful intellectual capital and horsepower in our community).
Meanwhile, as a project manager w/ PMP cert, Electrical Engineer, and a 35 year ham with military background, I am raising my hand as a volunteer for helping with the planning of future AMSAT projects
Mark Lunday WD4ELG Hillsborough, NC - FM06kb wd4elg@arrl.net http://wd4elg.net http://wd4elg.blogspot.com
Noone is questioning whether the volunteers worked their butts off. What we're talking about is that the AMSAT community (at least some, anyway) have an expectation of performance equivalent to what would be provided by full-time paid staff. Well, as long as it's volunteers only, that expectation is not reasonable (IMHO).
Mark.
"level of performance".
No one at least in their right mind would expect a "volunteer" to equal the work through put of a paid employee...
For example..in The Church of Christ (where I worship) any fool can get into the pulpit and preach...and the other hand the preacher is expected to have three sermons a week ready to go...
But the volunteers need to have similar levels of competency in the tools being used as the Preacher or they should not be allowed into the pulpit in the first place.
It is like tower climbing...I dont do it as fastl as the folks who professionally climb the 1000 footer that our clubs machine is on...but for the team that does it to get on the tower...we had to meet a minimium level of competency and demonstrate that.
No matter how it is spun suitsat 1 was a failure.
Good engineering standards would dictate figuring out the weak links and then correcting them trying something that perhaps was a bit more "sophisticated" but not all that much more...if for no other reason to make sure that the methods that defeat the failure are well understood.
Instead what happened is that the "team" put together a project so complicated that they missed their free launch.
I dont care how good the engineering is to miss a free launch is bad management.
That reality seems to bite some folks
Robert WB5MZO
_________________________________________________________________ Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/171222985/direct/01/
Rocky Jones wrote:
Noone is questioning whether the volunteers worked their butts off. What we're talking about is that the AMSAT community (at least some, anyway) have an expectation of performance equivalent to what would be provided by full-time paid staff. Well, as long as it's volunteers only, that expectation is not reasonable (IMHO).
Mark.
"level of performance".
No one at least in their right mind would expect a "volunteer" to equal the work through put of a paid employee...
For example..in The Church of Christ (where I worship) any fool can get into the pulpit and preach...and the other hand the preacher is expected to have three sermons a week ready to go...
But the volunteers need to have similar levels of competency in the tools being used as the Preacher or they should not be allowed into the pulpit in the first place.
It is like tower climbing...I dont do it as fastl as the folks who professionally climb the 1000 footer that our clubs machine is on...but for the team that does it to get on the tower...we had to meet a minimium level of competency and demonstrate that.
No matter how it is spun suitsat 1 was a failure.
Good engineering standards would dictate figuring out the weak links and then correcting them trying something that perhaps was a bit more "sophisticated" but not all that much more...if for no other reason to make sure that the methods that defeat the failure are well understood.
Instead what happened is that the "team" put together a project so complicated that they missed their free launch.
I dont care how good the engineering is to miss a free launch is bad management.
That reality seems to bite some folks
Robert WB5MZO
Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/171222985/direct/01/ _______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
I really want to reply in good faith. It is very difficult in light of the nature the tone of the way this thread is going. I am a member of AMSAT and proud of it. The organization is made up of volunteers.....Read Volunteers! Things will go wrong.. When we have problems we look for the weak points and focus on the corrections that can be made.
What I do not understand is the persistent bashing of the BOD or managers of this non profit volunteer corporation. We are not the Boeing, Lockheed or the USAF.
If something is not going your way contact a board member and deal directly with them. The way this thread is going it is accomplishing nothing more then degrading or demeaning the volunteer and contributing members of AMSAT. We have a lot of folks on this bb that have a lot of very good information to contribute to all. I just am really disappointed to see some very talented folks carry this thread to the point where it turns others off.
I do not expect a reply to this. I just wanted to express my opinion
Dale - KL7XJ
What I do not understand is the persistent bashing of the BOD or managers of this non profit volunteer corporation. We are not the
Boeing, Lockheed or the USAF.
If something is not going your way contact a board member and deal directly with them.
The way this thread is going it is accomplishing nothing more then degrading or demeaning the volunteer and contributing members of AMSAT.
We have a lot of folks on this bb that have a lot of very good information to contribute to all. I just am really disappointed
to see some very talented folks carry this thread to the point where it turns others off.
I do not expect a reply to this. I just wanted to express my opinion
Dale - KL7XJ
Dale. Pointing out errors in performance that are consistent is not bashing...and it doesnt matter if they are volunteers or paid staff.
If they cannot deal with responsible criticism, and oddly enough no one has refuted the statement I made that 1) they missed a launch date and 2) in large measure because they bit off to large a project...
instead all one gets is "wow I am upset because you are pointing out flaws in my performance, I am a volunteer I work 16-18 hours a day and wow this is space".
No one is calling them stupid, indeed the only people who have blown their corks are those who dont have answers to reasonable questions.
Robert WB5MZO
_________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/171222984/direct/01/
It amazes me that this group does not have an owner/moderator/administrator to stop/delete/kill all this worthless bitching.
Rocky Jones wrote:
What I do not understand is the persistent bashing of the BOD or managers of this non profit volunteer corporation. We are not the
Failing that can we at least stop feeding this troll.
Kevin Smith N3HKQ
On Sep 12, 2009, at 10:12 PM, Nigel Gunn G8IFF/W8IFF nigel@ngunn.net wrote:
It amazes me that this group does not have an owner/moderator/ administrator to stop/delete/kill all this worthless bitching.
Rocky Jones wrote:
What I do not understand is the persistent bashing of the BOD or managers of this non profit volunteer corporation. We are not the
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 02:12:41 +0000 From: nigel@ngunn.net To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Volunteered
It amazes me that this group does not have an owner/moderator/administrator to stop/delete/kill all this worthless bitching.
Rocky Jones wrote:
What I do not understand is the persistent bashing of the BOD or managers of this non profit volunteer corporation. We are not the
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Nigel.
modest point, I didnt write that.
Robert WB5MZO
_________________________________________________________________ Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/171222985/direct/01/
Rocky Jones wrote:
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 02:12:41 +0000 From: nigel@ngunn.net To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Volunteered
It amazes me that this group does not have an owner/moderator/administrator to stop/delete/kill all this worthless bitching.
Rocky Jones wrote:
What I do not understand is the persistent bashing of the BOD or managers of this non profit volunteer corporation. We are not the
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Nigel.
modest point, I didnt write that.
Robert WB5MZO
Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/171222985/direct/01/ _______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Please hit the DELETE key before you hit the REPLY key. You have the power to stop this, all by your self. Thanks, Jim WA4IVM Amsat 31517
http://php.opensourcecms.com/scripts/show.php?catid=all&cat=All%20Script...
CMS - kewl
---------------------------------------------------------- Andrew Rich Airways Technical Officer Grade 4 Surveillance - RADAR ADS-B Amateur Radio Callsign VK4TEC email: vk4tec@tech-software.net web: www.tech-software.net ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dale Hershberger" daleh@alaska.net To: "Rocky Jones" orbitjet@hotmail.com; "amsat bbs" amsat-bb@amsat.org Cc: "amsat bbs" amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2009 8:21 AM Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Volunteered
Rocky Jones wrote:
Noone is questioning whether the volunteers worked their butts off. What we're talking about is that the AMSAT community (at least some, anyway) have an expectation of performance equivalent to what would be provided by full-time paid staff. Well, as long as it's volunteers only, that expectation is not reasonable (IMHO).
Mark.
"level of performance".
No one at least in their right mind would expect a "volunteer" to equal the work through put of a paid employee...
For example..in The Church of Christ (where I worship) any fool can get into the pulpit and preach...and the other hand the preacher is expected to have three sermons a week ready to go...
But the volunteers need to have similar levels of competency in the tools being used as the Preacher or they should not be allowed into the pulpit in the first place.
It is like tower climbing...I dont do it as fastl as the folks who professionally climb the 1000 footer that our clubs machine is on...but for the team that does it to get on the tower...we had to meet a minimium level of competency and demonstrate that.
No matter how it is spun suitsat 1 was a failure.
Good engineering standards would dictate figuring out the weak links and then correcting them trying something that perhaps was a bit more "sophisticated" but not all that much more...if for no other reason to make sure that the methods that defeat the failure are well understood.
Instead what happened is that the "team" put together a project so complicated that they missed their free launch.
I dont care how good the engineering is to miss a free launch is bad management.
That reality seems to bite some folks
Robert WB5MZO
Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/171222985/direct/01/ _______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
I really want to reply in good faith. It is very difficult in light of the nature the tone of the way this thread is going. I am a member of AMSAT and proud of it. The organization is made up of volunteers.....Read Volunteers! Things will go wrong.. When we have problems we look for the weak points and focus on the corrections that can be made.
What I do not understand is the persistent bashing of the BOD or managers of this non profit volunteer corporation. We are not the Boeing, Lockheed or the USAF.
If something is not going your way contact a board member and deal directly with them. The way this thread is going it is accomplishing nothing more then degrading or demeaning the volunteer and contributing members of AMSAT. We have a lot of folks on this bb that have a lot of very good information to contribute to all. I just am really disappointed to see some very talented folks carry this thread to the point where it turns others off.
I do not expect a reply to this. I just wanted to express my opinion
Dale - KL7XJ _______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
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This is unadulterated bull shit made from whole cloth.
We have a free launch just as we have always have. The russians, as is their right when they have command, decided with all the equipment modeled people coming up to toss all orlan suits without notice to us (and they owed us nothing).
I would be the very last person to say AMSAT is above all criticism but you are clearly nor the spokesperson needed for the critics. Your notes are those of a person who wants to fiddle while he burns Rome. What is needed in my not so humble opinion is a spokesperson for the critics who is not perceived as full of animus.
Bob N4HY LM
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
-----Original Message----- From: Rocky Jones orbitjet@hotmail.com
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 17:09:47 To: mlunday@nc.rr.com; bruninga@usna.edu; bill@hsmicrowave.com Cc: rswart1@twcny.rr.com; Amsat BBamsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Volunteered
Noone is questioning whether the volunteers worked their butts off. What we're talking about is that the AMSAT community (at least some, anyway) have an expectation of performance equivalent to what would be provided by full-time paid staff. Well, as long as it's volunteers only, that expectation is not reasonable (IMHO).
Mark.
"level of performance".
No one at least in their right mind would expect a "volunteer" to equal the work through put of a paid employee...
For example..in The Church of Christ (where I worship) any fool can get into the pulpit and preach...and the other hand the preacher is expected to have three sermons a week ready to go...
But the volunteers need to have similar levels of competency in the tools being used as the Preacher or they should not be allowed into the pulpit in the first place.
It is like tower climbing...I dont do it as fastl as the folks who professionally climb the 1000 footer that our clubs machine is on...but for the team that does it to get on the tower...we had to meet a minimium level of competency and demonstrate that.
No matter how it is spun suitsat 1 was a failure.
Good engineering standards would dictate figuring out the weak links and then correcting them trying something that perhaps was a bit more "sophisticated" but not all that much more...if for no other reason to make sure that the methods that defeat the failure are well understood.
Instead what happened is that the "team" put together a project so complicated that they missed their free launch.
I dont care how good the engineering is to miss a free launch is bad management.
That reality seems to bite some folks
Robert WB5MZO
_________________________________________________________________ Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/171222985/direct/01/ _______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
We have a free launch just as we have always have. The russians, as is their right when they have command, decided with all the equipment modeled people coming up to toss all orlan suits without notice to us (and they owed us nothing).
Bob. I am told by people at JSC that this is not an accurate statement.
Robert WB5MZO
_________________________________________________________________ Bing brings you health info from trusted sources. http://www.bing.com/search?q=pet+allergy&form=MHEINA&publ=WLHMTAG&am...
Rocky Jones wrote:
Bob. I am told by people at JSC that this is not an accurate statement.
Well then, please present who these people are and what they said.
Is there a way to make an email to post change requests to for the website ?
Andrew,
yes it is. See here: http://www.watchthatpage.com/index.jsp
73, Mike DK3WN
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org [mailto:amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org] Im Auftrag von Andrew Rich (Home) Gesendet: Samstag, 12. September 2009 17:59 An: Rocky Jones; bill@hsmicrowave.com Cc: rswart1@twcny.rr.com; Amsat BB Betreff: [amsat-bb] Re: Volunteered
Is there a way to make an email to post change requests to for the website ?
_______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
No I meant
amsatwebchanges@amsat.org
" I found this page is old and needs to be deleted"
Many hands make light work
---------------------------------------------------------- Andrew Rich Airways Technical Officer Grade 4 Surveillance - RADAR ADS-B Amateur Radio Callsign VK4TEC email: vk4tec@tech-software.net web: www.tech-software.net ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Rupprecht" mail@mike-rupprecht.de To: "'Andrew Rich (Home)'" vk4tec@tech-software.net Cc: "'Amsat BB'" amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2009 2:08 AM Subject: AW: [amsat-bb] Re: Volunteered
Andrew,
yes it is. See here: http://www.watchthatpage.com/index.jsp
73, Mike DK3WN
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org [mailto:amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org] Im Auftrag von Andrew Rich (Home) Gesendet: Samstag, 12. September 2009 17:59 An: Rocky Jones; bill@hsmicrowave.com Cc: rswart1@twcny.rr.com; Amsat BB Betreff: [amsat-bb] Re: Volunteered
Is there a way to make an email to post change requests to for the website ?
_______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
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Andrew Rich (Home) wrote:
No I meant
amsatwebchanges@amsat.org
" I found this page is old and needs to be deleted"
Many hands make light work
Andrew: I think that the following solution will help you accomplish your goal...
At the bottom of many pages of the AMSAT web site is a link entitled: "Report a bug on this page"
Click on the link, and a form pops up. The form is pre-filled with the URL of the "offending" web page, i.e. the web page you were on at the time you clicked on the link. Fill in the rest of the form and click on the button labeled: Submit Report
One of the questions on the form is "Issue Type", and the drop-down list include numerous choices, such as: -- malformed text -- broken link -- outdated information -- misspelling -- punctuation and several others. You don't even have to start up your email client; the form goes to the appropriate person when you click on the Submit button.
If the page with a problem does not have one of these links on it, you could manually type in the following URL into your browser: http://www.amsat.org/amsat-new/bugform.php
The only problem with this is you will have to manually fill in the line on the form that specifies what web page is problematic. Of course, before you change to this URL, use your mouse to highlight the current URL (where the problem is located), hit Ctrl+C to copy the URL to the Windows Clipboard, then go to the bugform page, mouse or tab to that field, and hit Ctrl+V to paste in the URL. [My apologies in advance for giving you Windows-centric instructions if you are using a different OS family.]
This seems even easier to me than an email alias to which you send problem reports, but maybe that's just me...
But I clearly agree, a thousand pairs of eyes can find more errors and omissions than a single pair of eyes. www.nlrs.org (which I maintain) is comprised of over 4000 files, so I assume that www.amsat.org is much bigger!
73 de W0JT
At the bottom of many pages of the AMSAT web site is a link entitled: "Report a bug on this page"
The stuff I found was from 2002 and 2004 - no link there buddy
Thats why I asked
---------------------------------------------------------- Andrew Rich Airways Technical Officer Grade 4 Surveillance - RADAR ADS-B Amateur Radio Callsign VK4TEC email: vk4tec@tech-software.net web: www.tech-software.net ----- Original Message ----- From: "John P. Toscano" tosca005@tc.umn.edu Cc: "'Amsat BB'" amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2009 7:46 AM Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: (Reporting web pages needing updates)
Andrew Rich (Home) wrote:
No I meant
amsatwebchanges@amsat.org
" I found this page is old and needs to be deleted"
Many hands make light work
Andrew: I think that the following solution will help you accomplish your goal...
At the bottom of many pages of the AMSAT web site is a link entitled: "Report a bug on this page"
Click on the link, and a form pops up. The form is pre-filled with the URL of the "offending" web page, i.e. the web page you were on at the time you clicked on the link. Fill in the rest of the form and click on the button labeled: Submit Report
One of the questions on the form is "Issue Type", and the drop-down list include numerous choices, such as: -- malformed text -- broken link -- outdated information -- misspelling -- punctuation and several others. You don't even have to start up your email client; the form goes to the appropriate person when you click on the Submit button.
If the page with a problem does not have one of these links on it, you could manually type in the following URL into your browser: http://www.amsat.org/amsat-new/bugform.php
The only problem with this is you will have to manually fill in the line on the form that specifies what web page is problematic. Of course, before you change to this URL, use your mouse to highlight the current URL (where the problem is located), hit Ctrl+C to copy the URL to the Windows Clipboard, then go to the bugform page, mouse or tab to that field, and hit Ctrl+V to paste in the URL. [My apologies in advance for giving you Windows-centric instructions if you are using a different OS family.]
This seems even easier to me than an email alias to which you send problem reports, but maybe that's just me...
But I clearly agree, a thousand pairs of eyes can find more errors and omissions than a single pair of eyes. www.nlrs.org (which I maintain) is comprised of over 4000 files, so I assume that www.amsat.org is much bigger!
73 de W0JT
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
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... missed a deadline. That is a foundation of project management no matter if it is paid or unpaid. ... it means someone (or group) is not capable of good project management.
I think this focus on project management is probably both unfair and misdirected.
First, it is unfair because very, very few organizations are really good at project management. A few organizations are really good at project management because they invest considerable resources in developing a strong project management organization, including people, data, processes, and culture. It is highly unreasonable to expect AMSAT to even be able to make this sort of investment, much less actually do it. A few organizations are good at project management because they do the same thing over and over with a stable, experienced crew. After you have built ten bridges, you have a pretty good idea how long it will take your crew to build the eleventh. AMSAT simply doesn't build enough satellites or, I believe, have enough depth in its development organization, to be able to either accurately estimate the resources required to build a satellite, or to reliably execute according to a realistic plan. And, a lot of organizations, in essence, cheat. They overestimate in hopes that hitting their schedule, Or, they throw more resources at the project that is behind in order to meet the schedule. Or, they reduce the scope of the project. Or, if they are government contractors, they keep negotiating changes-in-scope to their contract in order to pay for any cost overruns.
The truth is, development projects, by their very nature, are risky (in the sense that success is uncertain). In fact, most development projects fail -- but, we just don't hear about them.
I also believe that this focus on project management is misdirected. In my view, the focus should be on _development_ management, not project management. While the scope and authority of the project management function varies across organizations, in general, its job is to support the development management. And, I believe that AMSAT does need to substantially improve its management of development projects. But, that is obviously difficult, in part because successfully managing development projects requires skills that are often in shorter supply than those required to actually build a satellite. But, that is another long, topic...
By the way, someone else wrote:
... There is no such thing as "good project mamagement" in an all volunteer effort where all the critical work gets done by techincally skilled and motivated volunteers.
I don't believe that this is at all true. I do believe, however, that managing a volunteer development team is much more challenging.
And,
... The last thing we need is a bunch of clueless managers ...
Again, _good_ development management is rare. But, good development management significantly increases the chances of success. Of course, one the skills of a good development manager is managing technical people who consider all managers to be clueless.
-tjs
participants (19)
-
Andrew Rich -
Andrew Rich (Home)
-
Ben Jackson -
Bill Ress -
Bob Bruninga -
Dale Hershberger -
Donald Jacob -
Glen Zook -
Jim Wright -
John P. Toscano -
Joseph Armbruster -
Kevin Smith -
Mark Lunday -
Mike Rupprecht -
Nigel Gunn G8IFF/W8IFF -
Rocky Jones -
rwmcgwier＠gmail.com -
Timothy J. Salo -
W4ART Arthur Feller