Montagues & Capulets (was: FM vs SSB, HEO vs LEO, etc)
Regularly we see passionate emails about the following subjects:
- Cubesats vs microsats - FM vs SSB - HEO vs MEO vs LEO - Pacsats vs voice - Easy vs hard sats
One desire stands out as a common element in most of these heated email threads. That is the desire for a satellite to facilitate 2-way communications. I happen to find that aspect of satellites most enjoyable whether on an FM, SSB, or digital bird.
You can keep pimping your ideas for the perfect satellite to the Internet OR get with an existing program that is working to launch a transponder. Sending emails over and over stating how beep-beeps don’t put entries in your logbook doesn’t contribute to the launch of new satellites. Do something productive to contribute (or send money.)
73 Clayton W5PFG
Clayton et al. 100% correct...The lowest common denominator is cost...If you're not donating your time and dollars you have lost your credibility to complain...somewhere along this latest diatribe it was mentioned we're a "cheap bunch". "Home brew" has it's limits. Our personal predilections are irrelevant to the grander scheme of things. I have suggested a few times we all go through our shacks and sell off that "get around to it" project, and send the money to the AMSAT of your choice. I have sold stuff, given talks to clubs, had a booth at hamfests, regularly have automatic funds sent to AMSAT. You're either in or you're not. 73 Bob W7LRD Seattle
----- Original Message ----- From: "Clayton Coleman" kayakfishtx@gmail.com To: "AMSAT" amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2012 8:46:23 AM Subject: [amsat-bb] Montagues & Capulets (was: FM vs SSB, HEO vs LEO, etc)
Regularly we see passionate emails about the following subjects:
- Cubesats vs microsats - FM vs SSB - HEO vs MEO vs LEO - Pacsats vs voice - Easy vs hard sats
One desire stands out as a common element in most of these heated email threads. That is the desire for a satellite to facilitate 2-way communications. I happen to find that aspect of satellites most enjoyable whether on an FM, SSB, or digital bird.
You can keep pimping your ideas for the perfect satellite to the Internet OR get with an existing program that is working to launch a transponder. Sending emails over and over stating how beep-beeps don’t put entries in your logbook doesn’t contribute to the launch of new satellites. Do something productive to contribute (or send money.)
73 Clayton W5PFG
_______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
The saying, "if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem" comes to mind...
George, KA3HSW
(Spend a buck every week on a lottery ticket in AMSAT's name: one of us may get lucky!)
----- Original Message ----
From: Bob- W7LRD w7lrd@comcast.net
[snip]
Clayton et al. 100% correct...The lowest common denominator is cost...If you're not donating your time and dollars you have lost your credibility to complain...somewhere along this latest diatribe it was mentioned we're a "cheap bunch". "Home brew" has it's limits. Our personal predilections are irrelevant to the grander scheme of things. I have suggested a few times we all go through our shacks and sell off that "get around to it" project, and send the money to the AMSAT of your choice. I have sold stuff, given talks to clubs, had a booth at hamfests, regularly have automatic funds sent to AMSAT. You're either in or you're not.
73 Bob W7LRD Seattle
I think that saying and others like it have about as much value as oh the "FM/linear satellite argument." ie almost none.
Steve Ford (dont recall the call, he is the "Big Key" at ARRL) ran a series of articles pre the launch of AO-40 where as I recall he compared each transponder combination as "a new band" (If I got this wrong Steve I apologize)...and in my view that explanation explains a lot of what is wrong about the satellite setup now.
The FM birds are popular because they are really a high repeater with the novelty of being "in space". There is a lot of "DX" for those use to a repeater but essentially it is short ranged.
The gear for the linear birds is not all that much more expensive then FM equipment. BUT if you dont use it for the birds and dont have really good antenna arrays it is more or less not of a lot of use. The same could be said in spades for some gear that will do C to X band or the other way.
Without some sort of HEO (or even a reasonable MEO) any "band" that comes from the linear birds is always going to be more "short ranged"...and while a lot of people like building things etc the prime object in amateur radio still is "communication" and working DX...one doesnt have to do a lot of "footprint" work to see that AO-7 and VU-52 great birds that they are, are still not terribly "dx" birds.
Amateur satellite communications would be a different place if AO-10 or 13 were still working or up, even if we had a Oscar IV (in its correct orbit) or Arsene working or even AO-40. If we had a transponder even on a spent upper stage that was wondering back and forth in a GTO...things would be very different.then DX would be a reality not a dream. The technology challenge is not that hard, if there was DX I suspect you would find more people on the linear birds.
Until then AO-7 and VU 52 are great and we can all do slogans like "for us or against us"... Robert WB5MZO
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2012 11:18:18 -0700 From: ka3hsw@att.net To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Montagues & Capulets (was: FM vs SSB, HEO vs LEO, etc)
The saying, "if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem" comes to mind...
George, KA3HSW
(Spend a buck every week on a lottery ticket in AMSAT's name: one of us may get lucky!)
----- Original Message ----
From: Bob- W7LRD w7lrd@comcast.net
[snip]
Clayton et al. 100% correct...The lowest common denominator is cost...If you're not donating your time and dollars you have lost your credibility to complain...somewhere along this latest diatribe it was mentioned we're a "cheap bunch". "Home brew" has it's limits. Our personal predilections are irrelevant to the grander scheme of things. I have suggested a few times we all go through our shacks and sell off that "get around to it" project, and send the money to the AMSAT of your choice. I have sold stuff, given talks to clubs, had a booth at hamfests, regularly have automatic funds sent to AMSAT. You're either in or you're not.
73 Bob W7LRD Seattle
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
On Oct 21 2012, R Oler wrote:
The gear for the linear birds is not all that much more expensive then FM equipment. BUT if you dont use it for the birds and dont have really good antenna arrays it is more or less not of a lot of use. The same could be said in spades for some gear that will do C to X band or the other way.
Without some sort of HEO (or even a reasonable MEO) any "band" that comes from the linear birds is always going to be more "short ranged"...and while a lot of people like building things etc the prime object in amateur radio still is "communication" and working DX...one doesnt have to do a lot of "footprint" work to see that AO-7 and VU-52 great birds that they are, are still not terribly "dx" birds.
Spoken like someone who is not active on the 10 GHz band. If you look at the records of the ARRL 10 GHz and Up Cumulative Contest (the only ARRL contest that reports the distances between stations in QSO's), you will find a large number of 300 Km and longer contacts. And I'm not talking about the spectacular distances covered by rare and exotic band openings. I'm talking about repeated contacts between stations running 2 to 8 watts into a small offset feed dishes. Microwave bands are NOT just for contacts in the 20-50 Km range.
And not just for contests either. I admit that a lot of the hams in the area where I lived for 33 years and now live during the summertime (where the Northern Lights Radio Society plays) turn off the microwave equipment and put it into storage between contests, but not all of them. In fact, there are a couple of operators that ragchew on 10 GHz between Minneapolis MN (EN34lx) and Grand Rapids, MN (EN37ed) nearly every day. No monstrous band opening required.
The more often that people hear hams say that the microwave bands are only good for contesting over very short distances, the greater is the chance that the "brainwashing" will be successful. This is known as a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Note that I am firmly in the camp of wishing for linear transponders on any bird that we manage to fly. The accomplishments of PE1RAH prove that even a tiny cubesat can physically support a linear transponder, not just an FM single-channel transponder. (See http://www.scribd.com/doc/59006469/le005-r2 ) And I am firmly in the camp of wishing for HEO satellites if we can ever manage to get one launched again. Too bad that Bill Gates (or someone with almost as much money as him) isn't a ham interested in satellite communication.
Just want to set the record straight about the utility of the higher bands.
73 de W0JT EN34js June-September EL09ro October-May AMSAT-NA Life Member #2292
Hello OM
I am not sure how you got what you said from my one paragraph about 2 meter gear...but I can put you at ease in that most of what you are saying I would agree with...my point however for the "average" ham I stick by.
We do use 10ghz here a bit...all our repeaters are controlled or cross linked by either a 3 or 13 centimeter link. Robert WB5MZO
From: tosca005@umn.edu To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2012 23:29:15 -0500 Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Montagues & Capulets (was: FM vs SSB, HEO vs LEO, etc)
On Oct 21 2012, R Oler wrote:
The gear for the linear birds is not all that much more expensive then FM equipment. BUT if you dont use it for the birds and dont have really good antenna arrays it is more or less not of a lot of use. The same could be said in spades for some gear that will do C to X band or the other way.
Without some sort of HEO (or even a reasonable MEO) any "band" that comes from the linear birds is always going to be more "short ranged"...and while a lot of people like building things etc the prime object in amateur radio still is "communication" and working DX...one doesnt have to do a lot of "footprint" work to see that AO-7 and VU-52 great birds that they are, are still not terribly "dx" birds.
Spoken like someone who is not active on the 10 GHz band. If you look at the records of the ARRL 10 GHz and Up Cumulative Contest (the only ARRL contest that reports the distances between stations in QSO's), you will find a large number of 300 Km and longer contacts. And I'm not talking about the spectacular distances covered by rare and exotic band openings. I'm talking about repeated contacts between stations running 2 to 8 watts into a small offset feed dishes. Microwave bands are NOT just for contacts in the 20-50 Km range.
And not just for contests either. I admit that a lot of the hams in the area where I lived for 33 years and now live during the summertime (where the Northern Lights Radio Society plays) turn off the microwave equipment and put it into storage between contests, but not all of them. In fact, there are a couple of operators that ragchew on 10 GHz between Minneapolis MN (EN34lx) and Grand Rapids, MN (EN37ed) nearly every day. No monstrous band opening required.
The more often that people hear hams say that the microwave bands are only good for contesting over very short distances, the greater is the chance that the "brainwashing" will be successful. This is known as a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Note that I am firmly in the camp of wishing for linear transponders on any bird that we manage to fly. The accomplishments of PE1RAH prove that even a tiny cubesat can physically support a linear transponder, not just an FM single-channel transponder. (See http://www.scribd.com/doc/59006469/le005-r2 ) And I am firmly in the camp of wishing for HEO satellites if we can ever manage to get one launched again. Too bad that Bill Gates (or someone with almost as much money as him) isn't a ham interested in satellite communication.
Just want to set the record straight about the utility of the higher bands.
73 de W0JT EN34js June-September EL09ro October-May AMSAT-NA Life Member #2292
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
From: tosca005@umn.edu To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2012 23:29:15 -0500 Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Montagues & Capulets (was: FM vs SSB, HEO vs LEO, etc)
Note that I am firmly in the camp of wishing for linear transponders on any bird that we manage to fly. The accomplishments of PE1RAH prove that even a tiny cubesat can physically support a linear transponder, not just an FM single-channel transponder. (See http://www.scribd.com/doc/59006469/le005-r2 ) And I am firmly in the camp of wishing for HEO satellites if we can ever manage to get one launched again. Too bad that Bill Gates (or someone with almost as much money as him) isn't a ham interested in satellite communication.
Just want to set the record straight about the utility of the higher bands.
73 de W0JT EN34js June-September EL09ro October-May AMSAT-NA Life Member #2292
Hi, W0JT
I agree with you particularly if a radio ham is able to build and not only to buy his own microwave equipments and antennas in order to experiment into the X band K band and higher bands and this is why a HEO satellite with microwave linear transponders is ideal for the serious experimenter ham.
To bad that I was not able to use my 10450-10452 MHz homebrewed downconverter and 60 cm dish on the X band transponder of AO40 because it never was activated because of the onboard explosion and fault of it.
I hope that some day in the future I can use my above X band set up if the AMSAT-DL will be able to signe a launch contract for P3E because actually the above setup been not working into the tropo DX frequency segment is good only for me to receive the Sun-Noise time to time.
73" de
i8CVS Domenico
participants (6)
-
Bob- W7LRD -
Clayton Coleman -
George Henry -
i8cvs -
R Oler -
tosca005＠umn.edu