Good day all,
Let me attempt to add a few cogent thoughts to the ongoing 'future of AMSAT' discussion...
I don't know if I am the typical ham or not, but I've been licensed for 35+ years... started in my teens. Have built some of my own gear, joined clubs, worked HF, chased DX, dabbled in lots of areas of ham radio... I've volunteered a lot of my time to different ham projects, emergency communications, repeaters (owned 3), digital networks, been a VE and so on. I'm at a point in my life and hobby that as the result of an agreement with 'she who must be pleased' I am more or less relegating myself to the simple 'sport' and enjoyment of the hobby. I build antennas, chase DX, chase grids, etc. One of the things I decided to do was get back on satellites just over a year ago. I tried an FM sat for the first time. I loved it and pursued more depth in the 'satellite' sub-hobby of ham radio.
That said... my original introduction to satellites was RS-12/13 in the mid 90s. I was living in a condo with little to no antenna and was actively chasing the CQ 50 awards (CQ magazines 50th anniversary). One of the tasks was to make a satellite QSO. Now how was I going to do that with an HF rig and a Hustler vertical on my deck. I researched, found out about RS-12 and gave it a try. My first contact on the bird was so exciting, I whooped and hollered so loud I scared the heck out of my wife. It was as exciting if not more so than my first Novice CW contact in 1977. I was really hooked and spent the next 5-6 years really enjoying that bird. Dinner times revolved around sat passes. I wrote up a webpage dedicated to helping hams make their first satellite contact on RS-12/13, maintained a forum to help people with getting on the bird and making scheduled contacts, etc. (google RS-12/13 and references to my old call and webpage STILL come up) - I volunteered my time and enjoyed it a lot... now ask me why I never joined or supported AMSAT.
It was because I had a number of run ins with AMSAT members that basically did not have the time of day for me. (Jerry K5OE was the one glaring exception) Their attitude was that RS-12/13 uses HF bands... it was not a 'REAL' satellite. I was introduced to this early on in my research to get on a bird when I called the AMSAT office asking for help and was referred to a field rep(?) about a hundred miles for me. When I called him, he told me he worked only digital birds, knew nothing about what I wanted to know and in general BLEW ME OFF. He did not refer me on to anyone, never got back to me or gave a rats. So why did I need AMSAT? Why should I give money to a bunch of arrogant so & so's that are interested in things way over my head. Now skip ahead to this last year.
I got on ham forums, I asked questions... I bought an HT to dip my toe in the water. I built a little homebrew antenna and made a contact on an FM bird. Far OUT!!! It was cool and this was fun... just like before. But, what more was there to do?!! I traded for a UHF all mode to go with my VHF... I built home brew beam antennas and put them up. I later upgraded my rig. I started chasing grids again and enjoying running across some of the same hams. I was fortunate to got to know them... they were INCLUSIVE and encouraged me to join AMSAT... so I did. Now I am exposed to more of what AMSAT does and I see the benefit. I see now that I ran into some NON-inclusive hams years ago. Shouldn't judge the whole group by a few, etc. BUT, the problem is... first impressions are often very lasting. They lasted with me for 15+ years.
Here is my point. Without introductory birds (FM) and an inclusive attitude, AMSAT is never going to grow and acquire the volunteer and monetary support to ever achieve some of the very things being complained about. You want to recruit new hams and get them to financially support AMSAT and it's endeavors? Then you need to develop an inclusive attitude. On this reflector I've heard comments that basically imply anyone who wants to go outside with an HT and wave a yagi around is stupid. <ZAP!> There went a whole bunch of future support dollars out of the coffers. I don't think I need to touch the HEO/LEO debate, but now I am hearing that FM birds are old hat... no good... we need better. <ZAP!> There goes another huge chunk. You know what I and many 'new sat ops' hear? "What you like is DUMB!" - I LIKE FM birds... I LIKE waving my yagi around... and I joined AMSAT! I just sent in my BOD ballot and I'm trying to figure out how much I can donate to the Fox launch.
Guess what... I MIGHT like digital birds. I've joined AMSAT now and you've got my attention... INTEREST ME! Tell me what I am missing... give me a presentation, a paper, a video, an article... hell, come buy me a cuppa joe and explain it to me. But for gosh sakes, do you really think that telling me that what I like to do is DUMB and then whine that I, as an AMSAT member, won't pay for whatever it is YOU like to do is a good strategy?!!! I am a 'sport' ham... I enjoy chasing DX, grids, the sats, etc. I have no current interest in digital modes on satellites... mostly because I probably don't UNDERSTAND THEM. My knowledge of digital on sats is guys with complicated stand alone setups and expensive TNCs that forwarded BBS messages. I mean, are you talking digital voice like DSTAR? Forwarded text? Live messaging? Video? What???? No one has ever explained it to me!!! Can I make QSOs on it and chase grids? All I walk away with after reading the comments is... 'Gee, apparently what I like is DUMB'.
Yes, I have used a little hyperbole, but I'm trying to make a point. This pervasive attitude is driving away the very people that could potentially support and later get actively involved in your 'advocated flavor' of the sat hobby. You simply MUST remember that the majority of sat ops don't fall out of the trees fully grown. Those guys that try out sats with an HT and a home made antenna... there's a lot of them. I'm basically one of them. Some will come and go, some might stay... but if you discourage them and exclude them by insulting their current flavor of operating, why would they hang around? I eventually came back around, met a different sort and stayed. And now I'm taking the time to say what a huge chunk of those that go away never bother to say.
That being, "Help me enjoy what I like and I'll help you enjoy what you like. Interest me in what you like and I might like it, too. But insult me and insist that I change, and I'll find someplace more fun and inviting to spend my time and money."
I hope my thoughts have been useful and I ask that you please take them in the spirit they are offered. I'd like to see AMSAT and the satellite hobby grow. I understand the frustration, but it seems that many are letting that frustration kill the very thing that could help alleviate their pain.
Just try to be inclusive and see beyond the end of your own antenna.
73,
Kevin N4UFO, ex-AC5DK AMSAT # 39145
------------------------------------------------------------------ "Control is the need of the fearful mind. Trust is the need of the courageous heart."
Been a member of AMSAT since the early 80s. Like most of you joined to support the SAT Program. Most of us probably joined for the same reason.
How does AMSAT survive? Survival is through volunteers and financial resources. Where does that come from????
Like any other amateur radio club only a few help do!!
A while back I asked what is AMSAT's STRATEGIC PLAN?
Technology has changed drastically since I joined. Has the plan changed.
I agree FM satellites are the easiest point of entrance for a new SAT communicator. I disagree with I one frequency SAT. That is an expensive way to fill in the GAP.
FOX seems to be a great answer to entry levels operators, possibly the majority of the operators.
With that said, Linear Transponders like AO 7 and FO 29 at higher altitudes are needed. We have lost VO 52.
It is hard to use the birds in our K4AMG mentoring program since their orbits are mostly incompatible with classroom times. NO SOLUTION IN SITE.
So there is a need to plan ahead for more accessible birds with more Linear transponders and other features. How do we get there?
A strategic plan accesses the current mission and goals to achieve a future vision.
Your volunteer time and money can make this happen.
One step would be enhanced Field Organization.
When we started the K4AMG MARC, Inc. there was no field organization in our area. Plenty of help from A FAR but no one with hands on experience locally.
Just a member
Rich W4BUE PRES K4AMG.org
Rich,
From your email:
"It is hard to use the birds in our K4AMG mentoring program since their orbits are mostly incompatible with classroom times. NO SOLUTION IN SITE."
I would disagree that no solution is in site. Check the pass times for EO-79, EO-80, and UKube-1. You'll find they are very convenient for classroom demonstrations. We just need to be patient and wait until they are activated for us to use. AO-73 also passes over at good times for classroom telemetry demonstrations.
73,
Paul, N8HM
On Tue, Jul 22, 2014 at 1:18 PM, Rich/wa4bue richard.siff@verizon.net wrote:
Been a member of AMSAT since the early 80s. Like most of you joined to support the SAT Program. Most of us probably joined for the same reason.
How does AMSAT survive? Survival is through volunteers and financial resources. Where does that come from????
Like any other amateur radio club only a few help do!!
A while back I asked what is AMSAT's STRATEGIC PLAN?
Technology has changed drastically since I joined. Has the plan changed.
I agree FM satellites are the easiest point of entrance for a new SAT communicator. I disagree with I one frequency SAT. That is an expensive way to fill in the GAP.
FOX seems to be a great answer to entry levels operators, possibly the majority of the operators.
With that said, Linear Transponders like AO 7 and FO 29 at higher altitudes are needed. We have lost VO 52.
It is hard to use the birds in our K4AMG mentoring program since their orbits are mostly incompatible with classroom times. NO SOLUTION IN SITE.
So there is a need to plan ahead for more accessible birds with more Linear transponders and other features. How do we get there?
A strategic plan accesses the current mission and goals to achieve a future vision.
Your volunteer time and money can make this happen.
One step would be enhanced Field Organization.
When we started the K4AMG MARC, Inc. there was no field organization in our area. Plenty of help from A FAR but no one with hands on experience locally.
Just a member
Rich W4BUE PRES K4AMG.org
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Having three Fox1 cubesats in orbit will significantly increase the opportunities too :D Power in numbers!
On Tue, Jul 22, 2014 at 10:28 AM, Paul Stoetzer n8hm@arrl.net wrote:
Rich,
From your email:
"It is hard to use the birds in our K4AMG mentoring program since their orbits are mostly incompatible with classroom times. NO SOLUTION IN SITE."
I would disagree that no solution is in site. Check the pass times for EO-79, EO-80, and UKube-1. You'll find they are very convenient for classroom demonstrations. We just need to be patient and wait until they are activated for us to use. AO-73 also passes over at good times for classroom telemetry demonstrations.
73,
Paul, N8HM
On Tue, Jul 22, 2014 at 1:18 PM, Rich/wa4bue richard.siff@verizon.net wrote:
Been a member of AMSAT since the early 80s. Like most of you joined to support the SAT Program. Most of us probably joined for the same reason.
How does AMSAT survive? Survival is through volunteers and financial resources. Where does that come from????
Like any other amateur radio club only a few help do!!
A while back I asked what is AMSAT's STRATEGIC PLAN?
Technology has changed drastically since I joined. Has the plan changed.
I agree FM satellites are the easiest point of entrance for a new SAT communicator. I disagree with I one frequency SAT. That is an expensive way to fill in the GAP.
FOX seems to be a great answer to entry levels operators, possibly the majority of the operators.
With that said, Linear Transponders like AO 7 and FO 29 at higher
altitudes
are needed. We have lost VO 52.
It is hard to use the birds in our K4AMG mentoring program since their orbits are mostly incompatible with classroom times. NO SOLUTION IN
SITE.
So there is a need to plan ahead for more accessible birds with more
Linear
transponders and other features. How do we get there?
A strategic plan accesses the current mission and goals to achieve a
future
vision.
Your volunteer time and money can make this happen.
One step would be enhanced Field Organization.
When we started the K4AMG MARC, Inc. there was no field organization in
our
area. Plenty of help from A FAR but no one with hands on experience locally.
Just a member
Rich W4BUE PRES K4AMG.org
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
program!
Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
On 07/22/2014 01:18 PM, Rich/wa4bue wrote:
So there is a need to plan ahead for more accessible birds with more Linear transponders and other features. How do we get there?
We need wideband software receivers that can look at the entire passband, detect individual signals and determine type, and translate them into the downlink passband based upon an operational ruleset that is policy driven and easily changed. Allow SSB, FM and Phil's DV at the same time if that is what we want. Or have FM only on Friday nights to encourage newcomers. Or pass SSB but simultaneously convert to FM on another part of the passband so the FM only guys can hear the action. Or whatever big imaginations and good drugs can dream up.
And since HEO is apparently out of the question, we need meshed satellite groups so that what you uplink on one bird can be heard on the downlink of all of the birds in the mesh. So we can extend operating times beyond a handful of minutes.
All this requires much much much more power than a 1U satellite is currently capable of producing. At least for always on type operating. We'll get there eventually.
Also, there's definitely the critical mass effect of having a constellation of smaller satellites in orbit. Look at ORBCOMM. No GEO sats but a constellation of LEO sats serves their purpose well. Fox-1 series becoming rapid and reliable satellite platform that can easily find its way into orbit would help with this.Things are looking up!
Bryce
On Tue, Jul 22, 2014 at 11:03 AM, Gus gus@8p6sm.net wrote:
On 07/22/2014 01:18 PM, Rich/wa4bue wrote:
So there is a need to plan ahead for more accessible birds with more Linear transponders and other features. How do we get there?
We need wideband software receivers that can look at the entire passband, detect individual signals and determine type, and translate them into the downlink passband based upon an operational ruleset that is policy driven and easily changed. Allow SSB, FM and Phil's DV at the same time if that is what we want. Or have FM only on Friday nights to encourage newcomers. Or pass SSB but simultaneously convert to FM on another part of the passband so the FM only guys can hear the action. Or whatever big imaginations and good drugs can dream up.
And since HEO is apparently out of the question, we need meshed satellite groups so that what you uplink on one bird can be heard on the downlink of all of the birds in the mesh. So we can extend operating times beyond a handful of minutes.
-- Gus 8P6SM The Easternmost Isle
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
On 07/22/2014 11:19 AM, Bryce Salmi wrote:
All this requires much much much more power than a 1U satellite is currently capable of producing. At least for always on type operating. We'll get there eventually.
Only if you keep the analog modes since they hog nearly all the available power and drive the spacecraft design in many other ways. Let go of them, and many new things suddenly become possible for the first time.
On 07/22/2014 11:54 AM, Kevin M wrote:
I've heard comments that basically imply anyone who wants to go outside with an HT and wave a yagi around is stupid.
I will respond to this because of comments I've made in the past, which may have been misunderstood.
Standing outside with a yagi in hand and the monsoon trickling down my neck isn't for me. It is demonstrably a valid way to make contacts and an excellent way to demonstrate how satellite operation can occur with minimalist equipment. But as far as I'm concerned, it IS NOT the ultimate objective of a satellite operator. It is the BARE MINIMUM of satellite operation, and there is no way I'm going to be satisfied with that for more than one or two passes.
To imply to the uneducated observer and potential future satellite operator, that standing in the rain is the pinnacle of hamsat ground station technology is (in my opinion) counter productive and, yes, stupid. As would be implying that a single-band, rock-bound QRP CW rig is the ultimate in ham HF technology. There is nothing wrong with QRP or broomstick-waving, far from it. And to those who enjoy it, more power to you! But if broomstick-waving is all I can hope to achieve in satellite operation, then I'll be very disappointed.
Gus,
I have a modest Satellite Station at home and I've worked many Countries and many Grids with it. It's very enjoyable.
But, I also have equipment and antennas that I take on Grid Expeditions to hand out rare Grids to the folks that need them and would otherwise probably not get them. I drive hundreds of miles to accomplish this on trips where I'm seeing things on my Bucket List - a twofold endeavor.
And yes, I've been out in the rain and snow with a handheld antenna which I now have on a tripod. I've done this in almost 80 Grids in both the US and Canada. I've been to some very remote locations and seen things many folks will never have the opportunity to see. It has been some of the most fun I've ever had in 53 years as a Ham. I love helping other Hams reach long held objectives. I happily do this all on my own, as do others.
You can see a photo of me and my Grid Expedition setup in Nova Scotia in action on my QRZ(dot)com page.
You may think it's stupid, but you are in the vast minority. Maybe there some different words that would be better to describe an activity that you yourself would prefer not doing. I hope next time you'll do a better job finding some.
73, Bob K8BL
(AMSAT Member since 1979)
________________________________ From: Gus gus@8p6sm.net To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2014 1:39 PM Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Inclusion
On 07/22/2014 11:54 AM, Kevin M wrote:
I've heard comments that basically imply anyone who wants to go outside with an HT and wave a yagi around is stupid.
I will respond to this because of comments I've made in the past, which may have been misunderstood.
Standing outside with a yagi in hand and the monsoon trickling down my neck isn't for me. It is demonstrably a valid way to make contacts and an excellent way to demonstrate how satellite operation can occur with minimalist equipment. But as far as I'm concerned, it IS NOT the ultimate objective of a satellite operator. It is the BARE MINIMUM of satellite operation, and there is no way I'm going to be satisfied with that for more than one or two passes.
To imply to the uneducated observer and potential future satellite operator, that standing in the rain is the pinnacle of hamsat ground station technology is (in my opinion) counter productive and, yes, stupid. As would be implying that a single-band, rock-bound QRP CW rig is the ultimate in ham HF technology. There is nothing wrong with QRP or broomstick-waving, far from it. And to those who enjoy it, more power to you! But if broomstick-waving is all I can hope to achieve in satellite operation, then I'll be very disappointed.
On 07/22/2014 06:25 PM, R.T.Liddy wrote:
You may think it's stupid...
Oh, for heavens sake. I DIDN'T SAY IT WAS STUPID!!! I said:
To imply to the uneducated observer and potential future satellite
operator, that
standing in the rain is the pinnacle of hamsat ground station
technology is (in my
opinion) counter productive and, yes, stupid.
To tell people who you are trying to entice into satellite operation that the ONLY way to operate satellite is with a broomstick, may push shack-potatoes away rather than draw them in. THAT is stupid. Because there is broomstick waving, shack-potatoing, mobileing, field-day, unattended telemetry logging and who knows what else? Any one of which might appeal to someone in the audience, and draw them in. All of these can't be demoed, but hopefully they won't be ignored of dismissed, because any one of these might be the hook that lands another satellite op.
participants (7)
-
Bryce Salmi -
Gus -
Kevin M -
Paul Stoetzer -
Phil Karn -
R.T.Liddy -
Rich/wa4bue