so it is not a free ride to space? where does the $6,000,000 dollars come from then?
What many of us have been trying to say is there are NO free rides to GTO. The business has changed in that respect. The P4 proposal opens the door to possible govermental EMCOMM funding, as well as bringing in a whole new base of support.
73, Drew KO4MA
Forget the EMCOMM support, that does not make sense anymore. Read on...
WIMAX will be available from sprint soon. THAT will be a reliable technology for ecom. With one access point, they will cover a wide area for both data and voice. NOW, imagine multiple access point ( and I mean 2 or 3 max) and regardless of what the ecom situation is, help will get through.
We have to understand here that P4 satcom for ecom is not a selling point anymore.
On Dec 13, 2007, at 3:17 PM, Andrew Glasbrenner wrote:
What many of us have been trying to say is there are NO free rides to GTO. The business has changed in that respect. The P4 proposal opens the door to possible govermental EMCOMM funding, as well as bringing in a whole new base of support.
73, Drew KO4MA
Sprint would be down too in a Katrina situation or if the terrorists set off a nuclear device in Atlanta the commo in the Southeast might be down. How can Sprint offer the same coverage area as Hams? How would Sprint tie into military and civil defense commo? The "wide area" must be assumed to be at least a whole state or region. If all normal commo in the Southeastern US goes down and you are in that area how far can your cell phone go to a Sprint site? Assume the nearest working site is at least 500 miles from you? How does Sprint handle that? How do you keep the "public" out so you can handle emergency traffic, on Sprint? With a GEO sat we could provide commo in the whole lower 48 (states). How does Sprint compare to that capability?
Les W4SCO
At 06:04 PM 12/13/2007, you wrote:
Forget the EMCOMM support, that does not make sense anymore. Read on...
WIMAX will be available from sprint soon. THAT will be a reliable technology for ecom. With one access point, they will cover a wide area for both data and voice. NOW, imagine multiple access point ( and I mean 2 or 3 max) and regardless of what the ecom situation is, help will get through.
We have to understand here that P4 satcom for ecom is not a selling point anymore.
On Dec 13, 2007, at 3:17 PM, Andrew Glasbrenner wrote:
What many of us have been trying to say is there are NO free rides to GTO. The business has changed in that respect. The P4 proposal opens the door to possible govermental EMCOMM funding, as well as bringing in a whole new base of support.
73, Drew KO4MA
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
My thoughts exactly. Like this was a similar case when a local ARES/RACES group was placing a LOT of their traffic handling on WINLINK. i told them when it all dies how are they supposed to pass traffic.
We need to be the key word, "Off the Grid" in every way Joe WB9SBD
sco@sco-inc.com wrote:
Sprint would be down too in a Katrina situation or if the terrorists set off a nuclear device in Atlanta the commo in the Southeast might be down. How can Sprint offer the same coverage area as Hams? How would Sprint tie into military and civil defense commo? The "wide area" must be assumed to be at least a whole state or region. If all normal commo in the Southeastern US goes down and you are in that area how far can your cell phone go to a Sprint site? Assume the nearest working site is at least 500 miles from you? How does Sprint handle that? How do you keep the "public" out so you can handle emergency traffic, on Sprint? With a GEO sat we could provide commo in the whole lower 48 (states). How does Sprint compare to that capability?
Les W4SCO
At 06:04 PM 12/13/2007, you wrote:
Forget the EMCOMM support, that does not make sense anymore. Read on...
WIMAX will be available from sprint soon. THAT will be a reliable technology for ecom. With one access point, they will cover a wide area for both data and voice. NOW, imagine multiple access point ( and I mean 2 or 3 max) and regardless of what the ecom situation is, help will get through.
We have to understand here that P4 satcom for ecom is not a selling point anymore.
On Dec 13, 2007, at 3:17 PM, Andrew Glasbrenner wrote:
What many of us have been trying to say is there are NO free rides to GTO. The business has changed in that respect. The P4 proposal opens the door to possible govermental EMCOMM funding, as well as bringing in a whole new base of support.
73, Drew KO4MA
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
I read a little bit on WIMAX and they are talking about 3-10 kilometers of support. That really would have helped a lot during the Katrina rescue or in a nuclear attack. Ham Radio is the last line of commo in an emergency. Be it short distance or arround the world. It does not require an infastructure between two stations. And if the ham repeater is on location 24/7 (in orbit) and can be reached by any ham in the lower USA, that system would trump any civilian system out there today. That is why i believe HS would help fund us to be ready for the nuclear attacks that will most likely come in the future. I hope we get a sat in orbit before this administration is replaced and the next one might not think we are worth the money or that no more attacks are coming.
Les W4SCO
At 06:04 PM 12/13/2007, you wrote:
Forget the EMCOMM support, that does not make sense anymore. Read on...
WIMAX will be available from sprint soon. THAT will be a reliable technology for ecom. With one access point, they will cover a wide area for both data and voice. NOW, imagine multiple access point ( and I mean 2 or 3 max) and regardless of what the ecom situation is, help will get through.
We have to understand here that P4 satcom for ecom is not a selling point anymore.
On Dec 13, 2007, at 3:17 PM, Andrew Glasbrenner wrote:
What many of us have been trying to say is there are NO free rides to GTO. The business has changed in that respect. The P4 proposal opens the door to possible govermental EMCOMM funding, as well as bringing in a whole new base of support.
73, Drew KO4MA
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
--- sco@sco-inc.com wrote:
I hope we get a sat in orbit before this administration is replaced and the next one might not think we are worth the money or that no more attacks are coming.
Les W4SCO
Actually, it was the current administration that behaved as though an attack would not occur or was not even taking place on 9/11/01, despite warnings and evidence to the contrary.
And it is the current administration that is now cutting DHS funding to high-profile targets such as the New York City metropolitan area.
Hoping that the next administration doesn't do the same is hoping for a change.
73, de John, KD2BD
Visit John on the Web at:
http://kd2bd.ham.org/ . . . .
____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping
MKM,
Your expertise in satellites is only exceeded by your abundance of knowledge in the EMCOMM arena.
One of the first principles of EMCOMM is self contained, ad hoc delivery of communications services in the voice, data, and video domains.
Any reliance on common carriers in a disaster scenario is a complete non-starter.
Having a high bandwidth asset in GEO will usher in a revolution in disaster communications support and if AMSAT pulls it off it will have achieved something more important than the technical feat, it will help SAVE LIVES.
John Zaruba Jr. AA2BN AMSAT #22683 Gloucester County ARES/RACES
P.S. I'm not afraid to plainly attach my name and callsign to what I write...
On Dec 13, 2007, at 6:04 PM, MKM wrote:
Forget the EMCOMM support, that does not make sense anymore. Read on...
WIMAX will be available from sprint soon. THAT will be a reliable technology for ecom. With one access point, they will cover a wide area for both data and voice. NOW, imagine multiple access point ( and I mean 2 or 3 max) and regardless of what the ecom situation is, help will get through.
We have to understand here that P4 satcom for ecom is not a selling point anymore.
Ha...you've been reading too many press releases. There is nothing fundamentally different in WiMax than any other wide-area wireless service. It's still radio, folks.
At 16:04 2007-12-13, MKM wrote:
Forget the EMCOMM support, that does not make sense anymore. Read on...
WIMAX will be available from sprint soon. THAT will be a reliable technology for ecom. With one access point, they will cover a wide area for both data and voice. NOW, imagine multiple access point ( and I mean 2 or 3 max) and regardless of what the ecom situation is, help will get through.
We have to understand here that P4 satcom for ecom is not a selling point anymore.
On Dec 13, 2007, at 3:17 PM, Andrew Glasbrenner wrote:
What many of us have been trying to say is there are NO free rides to GTO. The business has changed in that respect. The P4 proposal opens the door to possible govermental EMCOMM funding, as well as bringing in a whole new base of support.
73, Drew KO4MA
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Scott Townley NX7U Gilbert, AZ DM43di mailto:nx7u@arrl.net http://members.cox.net/nx7u
Beg to differ:
the Katrina experience showed the fallacy of your reasoning. EVERY commercial approach to emcomm has failed to understand this simple fact. Fixed infrastructure will fail. There was NO comms in the Gulf coast after Katrina ... except ham radio ... and one satellite phone owned by the national guard. (all their other sat-phones had been sent to Iraq) My wife comes from Pass Christian, MS and we still had a house down there when Katrina hit.
I HOPE that this is hitting home with the officials. P4 is a great international emcomm tool. Not everyone lives in metro America!
73 Ed - KL7UW er that's in Alaska....a place with no roads in 75% of the land - Wimax, cell phones, I-tune --- Ha ha! but even in 1964 ham radio WAS the communications that worked in the 2nd largest earthquake to hit the world!
At 02:04 PM 12/13/2007, MKM wrote:
Forget the EMCOMM support, that does not make sense anymore. Read on...
WIMAX will be available from sprint soon. THAT will be a reliable technology for ecom. With one access point, they will cover a wide area for both data and voice. NOW, imagine multiple access point ( and I mean 2 or 3 max) and regardless of what the ecom situation is, help will get through.
We have to understand here that P4 satcom for ecom is not a selling point anymore.
On Dec 13, 2007, at 3:17 PM, Andrew Glasbrenner wrote:
What many of us have been trying to say is there are NO free rides to GTO. The business has changed in that respect. The P4 proposal opens the door to possible govermental EMCOMM funding, as well as bringing in a whole new base of support.
73, Drew KO4MA
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Well, good conversation without getting personal.
Wimax is a new technology with great potential. Also, you talk about sat phones...what if the price of satphones drops to a level where it is affordable by many.
I am FOR a P4 type bird. I am also a realistic. I am FOR Eagle, but only one project done correctly at a time.
While we brainstorm here for nothing since AMSAT-NA will do business as usual, the Germans are progressing in assembling their future Oscar. Congratulations to AMSAT-DL!
On Dec 14, 2007, at 12:37 AM, Edward Cole wrote:
Beg to differ:
the Katrina experience showed the fallacy of your reasoning. EVERY commercial approach to emcomm has failed to understand this simple fact. Fixed infrastructure will fail. There was NO comms in the Gulf coast after Katrina ... except ham radio ... and one satellite phone owned by the national guard. (all their other sat-phones had been sent to Iraq) My wife comes from Pass Christian, MS and we still had a house down there when Katrina hit.
I HOPE that this is hitting home with the officials. P4 is a great international emcomm tool. Not everyone lives in metro America!
73 Ed - KL7UW er that's in Alaska....a place with no roads in 75% of the land - Wimax, cell phones, I-tune --- Ha ha! but even in 1964 ham radio WAS the communications that worked in the 2nd largest earthquake to hit the world!
This is complete and utter bull hockey. When you have a large scale natural disaster such as Hurricane Katrina, or 9/11, you have a collapse of the necessary infrastructure needed to support Cell, WiMAX, etc. I am a communications professional. I deal professionally every single day, most of the hours int he day with WiMax/802.16, all parts.
The thing we can provide is the stand alone, disaster proof communications system in the earliest hours after a natural or man made disaster because we will be far removed from the affected area with the host for our infrastructure and the lightweight terminals we are designing can be hand carried in, run on batteries until generators get set up and provide local and national level communications.
You simply do not know what you are talking about.
Bob N4HY
MKM wrote:
Forget the EMCOMM support, that does not make sense anymore. Read on...
WIMAX will be available from sprint soon. THAT will be a reliable technology for ecom. With one access point, they will cover a wide area for both data and voice. NOW, imagine multiple access point ( and I mean 2 or 3 max) and regardless of what the ecom situation is, help will get through.
We have to understand here that P4 satcom for ecom is not a selling point anymore.
On Dec 13, 2007, at 3:17 PM, Andrew Glasbrenner wrote:
What many of us have been trying to say is there are NO free rides to GTO. The business has changed in that respect. The P4 proposal opens the door to possible govermental EMCOMM funding, as well as bringing in a whole new base of support.
73, Drew KO4MA
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
MKM wrote:
Forget the EMCOMM support, that does not make sense anymore. Read on...
WIMAX will be available from sprint soon. THAT will be a reliable technology for ecom. With one access point, they will cover a wide area for both data and voice. NOW, imagine multiple access point ( and I mean 2 or 3 max) and regardless of what the ecom situation is, help will get through.
This service will be coming from U.S. carriers who wouldn't even put battery/generator backup on most of their wireless POP's until told to do so by the FCC after Katrina:
http://www.datacenterknowledge.com/archives/2007/Dec/10/fcc_ruling_may_spur_generator_demand.html
Even with the new ruling, the FCC only recommends that such sites operate for 8 hours on emergency power.
In other words, they don't expect the cellular companies to REFUEL those generators in any timely fashion.
I worked for a large co-location company a few years ago, and we had a diesel contract that was VERY expensive.
I talked to the truck driver once, and he told me that the order of his stops in bad weather/disaster situations would have been:
Denver Health Medical Center - the alive ones at the hospital. Denver Police Headquarters and the Jail facility - the troublemakers, keep them inside. Denver Morgue - if it's warm out, you don't want the dead ones thawing and you probably have outdoor triage and refrigeration going on if things aren't quite as bad as Katrina. Denver Library - Security. Historical items. Our data center.
Another route for another truck included the telco central office (Denver Main), and the "telco hotel" next door, as it's only customers that truck would serve. As long as the outage lasted, those truck wouldn't leave their "circular" routes which were planned to arrive just as generators were running out of fuel in a continuous loop. Any delay and we (being at the bottom) would either fall off the list, or they'd make arrangements to skip the library.
That was his route with the diesel truck. He would run around in circles and do it all again, if the problem lasted for multiple days. . Cell sites? Nope. WiMax sites? No way.
Reality bites: Cell carriers don't pay to be on priority diesel contracts. Diesel deliveries to cell sites are on "best effort" contracts. They fall below everyone else with priority contracts.
Good luck with your WiMax as an EmComm tool. Let us know how well it serves you when the power goes out and the diesel trucks can't get to all those new generators at all the WiMax and cell sites
Nate WY0X
At 08:30 PM 12/17/2007, Nate Duehr wrote:
... This service will be coming from U.S. carriers who wouldn't even put battery/generator backup on most of their wireless POP's until told to do so by the FCC after Katrina:
http://www.datacenterknowledge.com/archives/2007/Dec/10/fcc_ruling_may_spur_generator_demand.html
Even with the new ruling, the FCC only recommends that such sites operate for 8 hours on emergency power.
Hey Nate,
You may get a kick out of this. One of my buddies (an AMSAT member) here in New England worked for the phone company and mentioned one night that he had been dispatched during a miserable snow storm to a cell site with a portable generator as power was out. After hooking it up, he had to stay in his car and "babysit" the generator all night long. When I asked him why he said that "otherwise, the generator would be stolen by the morning!"
73, Tony AA2TX
Been there done that in the Mid Atlantic area. We could charge a hut in about two hours so it would last the expected 8 hours on the spec. sheet, if the batteries are in good shape to start with. In an eight hour shift you could get three huts recharged, by then the first hut had eight hours discharge and was ready for another boost. Bad news for those folks if the batteries were old and only good for two hours. Often the were charged during the daylight bussiness hours and left to chance so we could go home and recharge the technicians. You may know that much of the outside cable is now fiber, requiring more batteries for the terminal end. Those sites for cable TV and electronic telephone will often have small portable generators chained to them to prevent the theft.
Yes! It gets cold out in the snow, but it gets just as difficult after a hurricane blows through. Most big telecom companies have a few portable generators to cover many sites. They don't usually have enough trucks with proper hitches to tow ALL of their generators at one time. It takes a lot of manpower and coordination. Not quite as costly as getting a ride to AO-40 and doing a repair/recharge on her.
73 from a retired telephone generator dragger.
Jim
Anthony Monteiro wrote:
At 08:30 PM 12/17/2007, Nate Duehr wrote:
... This service will be coming from U.S. carriers who wouldn't even put battery/generator backup on most of their wireless POP's until told to do so by the FCC after Katrina:
http://www.datacenterknowledge.com/archives/2007/Dec/10/fcc_ruling_may_spur_generator_demand.html
Even with the new ruling, the FCC only recommends that such sites operate for 8 hours on emergency power.
Hey Nate,
You may get a kick out of this. One of my buddies (an AMSAT member) here in New England worked for the phone company and mentioned one night that he had been dispatched during a miserable snow storm to a cell site with a portable generator as power was out. After hooking it up, he had to stay in his car and "babysit" the generator all night long. When I asked him why he said that "otherwise, the generator would be stolen by the morning!"
73, Tony AA2TX
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Time for subject change folks.
A question about "smoothing" A/C from a generator sufficiently to allow a UPS ( computer type such as an APC )to function.
Does anyone have a DIY schematic for such as device? I've "Googled" and found many commercial power conditioners but they are expensive. Some more costly than a top of the line generator in the <$1000 range. Worse, if I were to replace my generator I have no guaranteed that the A/C output would be of high enough quality to charge and run a UPS properly without carry a UPS into the store and asking them to fire up their brand new generator.
It would be nice to stay on the air and have computers running when the generator is down for a fuel refill and oil check or when it otherwise hiccups and shuts down unexpectedly.
Here's the problem. All the UPS I have such as APC 750, APC 1050 and others don't work when powered by a generator. They "see" the A/C input as being sufficiently defective that they trip into battery backup mode immediately when they should be passing the A/C directly onto the protected devices and be recharging the battery.
At our last field day we had 4 gas generators on site of varying vintage and make and price range. They ran our networked computers for contest logging, radios, rotators, coffee pots, and fluorescent lighting in the tents. We've done this for several years without a problem. The A/C quality is good enough for the PC power supplies and radios or the external radio power supplies. During FD2007 I decided to add a UPS for each of 3 computers and then found that they all failed. Testing after FD showed that the generators were the problem. We don't use laptops, which, with their internal batteries have their own built-in UPS when you run them on the AC adapter. We use old Pentium desktops because for the last 3 years in a row we have had severe WX overnight, operating tents get blown down, computers and radios get soaked etc. It's part of the fun of FD :-)
The EMCOMM discussion reminded me that I should deal with this now and not wait for FD2008. Also I should be prepared all year, not just for FD, to run my house, radios and computers in an emergency environment. Recent ice storms in the U.S. with a million folks without power for a day or two reminded me of the ice storm in Quebec several years ago when tens of thousands lost power for weeks. Welcome to global warming and volatile WX. As usual it is a case of "not IF; but WHEN".
BTW, I've shown my support for AMSAT, the executive et al by renewing my membership to a Life Time membership prior to all the QRM in the last week. I would rather have made a separate donation but up here in the Great White North we don't get a tax deduction for a U.S. not-for-profit :-(
73, Alan VE4YZ EN19 AMSAT LM 2352 http://www.mts.net/~ve4wsc/ AMSAT A-485
-----Original Message----- From: amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org [mailto:amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org] On Behalf Of Nate Duehr Sent: December 17, 2007 7:31 PM To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Phase 4 versus Eagle
MKM wrote:
Forget the EMCOMM support, that does not make sense anymore. Read on...
WIMAX will be available from sprint soon. THAT will be a reliable technology for ecom. With one access point, they will cover a wide area for both data and voice. NOW, imagine multiple access point ( and I mean 2 or 3 max) and regardless of what the ecom situation is, help will get through.
This service will be coming from U.S. carriers who wouldn't even put battery/generator backup on most of their wireless POP's until told to do so by the FCC after Katrina:
http://www.datacenterknowledge.com/archives/2007/Dec/10/fcc_ruling_may_spur _generator_demand.html
Even with the new ruling, the FCC only recommends that such sites operate for 8 hours on emergency power.
In other words, they don't expect the cellular companies to REFUEL those generators in any timely fashion.
I worked for a large co-location company a few years ago, and we had a diesel contract that was VERY expensive.
I talked to the truck driver once, and he told me that the order of his stops in bad weather/disaster situations would have been:
Denver Health Medical Center - the alive ones at the hospital. Denver Police Headquarters and the Jail facility - the troublemakers, keep them inside. Denver Morgue - if it's warm out, you don't want the dead ones thawing and you probably have outdoor triage and refrigeration going on if things aren't quite as bad as Katrina. Denver Library - Security. Historical items. Our data center.
Another route for another truck included the telco central office (Denver Main), and the "telco hotel" next door, as it's only customers that truck would serve. As long as the outage lasted, those truck wouldn't leave their "circular" routes which were planned to arrive just as generators were running out of fuel in a continuous loop. Any delay and we (being at the bottom) would either fall off the list, or they'd make arrangements to skip the library.
That was his route with the diesel truck. He would run around in circles and do it all again, if the problem lasted for multiple days. . Cell sites? Nope. WiMax sites? No way.
Reality bites: Cell carriers don't pay to be on priority diesel contracts. Diesel deliveries to cell sites are on "best effort" contracts. They fall below everyone else with priority contracts.
Good luck with your WiMax as an EmComm tool. Let us know how well it serves you when the power goes out and the diesel trucks can't get to all those new generators at all the WiMax and cell sites
Nate WY0X
_______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Thanks to Ray, WB3ABN for an off-line heads up on how the UPS loads the generator. Further surfing on the APC web site recommends sizing the generator to 3-5 times the load and/or reducing sensitivity of the UPS. Fortunately all my UPS models can be tweaked thru software to reduce sensitivity. All that now has to be done is test a cold weather start of my generator tomorrow and try the desensed UPS. And if it works, we'll have a ham situation where desense is a good thing.
-----Original Message----- From: amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org [mailto:amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org] On Behalf Of Alan Sent: December 17, 2007 11:52 PM To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: [amsat-bb] EMCOMM, Generators, UPS etc was Phase 4 versus Eagle
Time for subject change folks.
A question about "smoothing" A/C from a generator sufficiently to allow a UPS ( computer type such as an APC )to function.
Does anyone have a DIY schematic for such as device? I've "Googled" and found many commercial power conditioners but they are expensive. Some more costly than a top of the line generator in the <$1000 range. Worse, if I were to replace my generator I have no guaranteed that the A/C output would be of high enough quality to charge and run a UPS properly without carry a UPS into the store and asking them to fire up their brand new generator.
It would be nice to stay on the air and have computers running when the generator is down for a fuel refill and oil check or when it otherwise hiccups and shuts down unexpectedly.
Here's the problem. All the UPS I have such as APC 750, APC 1050 and others don't work when powered by a generator. They "see" the A/C input as being sufficiently defective that they trip into battery backup mode immediately when they should be passing the A/C directly onto the protected devices and be recharging the battery.
At our last field day we had 4 gas generators on site of varying vintage and make and price range. They ran our networked computers for contest logging, radios, rotators, coffee pots, and fluorescent lighting in the tents. We've done this for several years without a problem. The A/C quality is good enough for the PC power supplies and radios or the external radio power supplies. During FD2007 I decided to add a UPS for each of 3 computers and then found that they all failed. Testing after FD showed that the generators were the problem. We don't use laptops, which, with their internal batteries have their own built-in UPS when you run them on the AC adapter. We use old Pentium desktops because for the last 3 years in a row we have had severe WX overnight, operating tents get blown down, computers and radios get soaked etc. It's part of the fun of FD :-)
The EMCOMM discussion reminded me that I should deal with this now and not wait for FD2008. Also I should be prepared all year, not just for FD, to run my house, radios and computers in an emergency environment. Recent ice storms in the U.S. with a million folks without power for a day or two reminded me of the ice storm in Quebec several years ago when tens of thousands lost power for weeks. Welcome to global warming and volatile WX. As usual it is a case of "not IF; but WHEN".
BTW, I've shown my support for AMSAT, the executive et al by renewing my membership to a Life Time membership prior to all the QRM in the last week. I would rather have made a separate donation but up here in the Great White North we don't get a tax deduction for a U.S. not-for-profit :-(
73, Alan VE4YZ EN19 AMSAT LM 2352 http://www.mts.net/~ve4wsc/ AMSAT A-485
-----Original Message----- From: amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org [mailto:amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org] On Behalf Of Nate Duehr Sent: December 17, 2007 7:31 PM To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Phase 4 versus Eagle
MKM wrote:
Forget the EMCOMM support, that does not make sense anymore. Read on...
WIMAX will be available from sprint soon. THAT will be a reliable technology for ecom. With one access point, they will cover a wide area for both data and voice. NOW, imagine multiple access point ( and I mean 2 or 3 max) and regardless of what the ecom situation is, help will get through.
This service will be coming from U.S. carriers who wouldn't even put battery/generator backup on most of their wireless POP's until told to do so by the FCC after Katrina:
http://www.datacenterknowledge.com/archives/2007/Dec/10/fcc_ruling_may_spur _generator_demand.html
Even with the new ruling, the FCC only recommends that such sites operate for 8 hours on emergency power.
In other words, they don't expect the cellular companies to REFUEL those generators in any timely fashion.
I worked for a large co-location company a few years ago, and we had a diesel contract that was VERY expensive.
I talked to the truck driver once, and he told me that the order of his stops in bad weather/disaster situations would have been:
Denver Health Medical Center - the alive ones at the hospital. Denver Police Headquarters and the Jail facility - the troublemakers, keep them inside. Denver Morgue - if it's warm out, you don't want the dead ones thawing and you probably have outdoor triage and refrigeration going on if things aren't quite as bad as Katrina. Denver Library - Security. Historical items. Our data center.
Another route for another truck included the telco central office (Denver Main), and the "telco hotel" next door, as it's only customers that truck would serve. As long as the outage lasted, those truck wouldn't leave their "circular" routes which were planned to arrive just as generators were running out of fuel in a continuous loop. Any delay and we (being at the bottom) would either fall off the list, or they'd make arrangements to skip the library.
That was his route with the diesel truck. He would run around in circles and do it all again, if the problem lasted for multiple days. . Cell sites? Nope. WiMax sites? No way.
Reality bites: Cell carriers don't pay to be on priority diesel contracts. Diesel deliveries to cell sites are on "best effort" contracts. They fall below everyone else with priority contracts.
Good luck with your WiMax as an EmComm tool. Let us know how well it serves you when the power goes out and the diesel trucks can't get to all those new generators at all the WiMax and cell sites
Nate WY0X
_______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb _______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Hi Alan,
All good stuff. We go a bit further and are now using what are called 'line interactive' UPS models. These have essentially zero switch time. We've found that even with the typical short xx ms switch time of the usual type of UPS, some loads can't handle the glitch. The 'line interactive' versions are online 100%. Basically the incoming AC runs a battery charger. The batteries run an inverter that powers the load.
One other thing we do is use a bypass system around the UPS in case that fails. Pulluzzi makes a nice one, but quite expensive. We've had a scenario where a UPS came on line, ran for a while, but then failed 'in circuit'. By that time, AC power had returned, but there was no way to restore power because of the UPS failure. With the Pulluzzi switch, power can be routed around a failed unit automatically.
This equipment is used for mountaintop transmission systems, so not the typical Ham application, but the ideas apply to most emergency type situations.
73, Mike, N1JEZ "A closed mouth gathers no feet"
----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan" ve4yz@mts.net To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 3:06 AM Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: EMCOMM, Generators, UPS etc was Phase 4 versus Eagle
Thanks to Ray, WB3ABN for an off-line heads up on how the UPS loads the generator. Further surfing on the APC web site recommends sizing the generator to 3-5 times the load and/or reducing sensitivity of the UPS. Fortunately all my UPS models can be tweaked thru software to reduce sensitivity. All that now has to be done is test a cold weather start of my generator tomorrow and try the desensed UPS. And if it works, we'll have a ham situation where desense is a good thing.
-----Original Message----- From: amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org [mailto:amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org] On Behalf Of Alan Sent: December 17, 2007 11:52 PM To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: [amsat-bb] EMCOMM, Generators, UPS etc was Phase 4 versus Eagle
Time for subject change folks.
A question about "smoothing" A/C from a generator sufficiently to allow a UPS ( computer type such as an APC )to function.
Does anyone have a DIY schematic for such as device? I've "Googled" and found many commercial power conditioners but they are expensive. Some more costly than a top of the line generator in the <$1000 range. Worse, if I were to replace my generator I have no guaranteed that the A/C output would be of high enough quality to charge and run a UPS properly without carry a UPS into the store and asking them to fire up their brand new generator.
It would be nice to stay on the air and have computers running when the generator is down for a fuel refill and oil check or when it otherwise hiccups and shuts down unexpectedly.
Here's the problem. All the UPS I have such as APC 750, APC 1050 and others don't work when powered by a generator. They "see" the A/C input as being sufficiently defective that they trip into battery backup mode immediately when they should be passing the A/C directly onto the protected devices and be recharging the battery.
At our last field day we had 4 gas generators on site of varying vintage and make and price range. They ran our networked computers for contest logging, radios, rotators, coffee pots, and fluorescent lighting in the tents. We've done this for several years without a problem. The A/C quality is good enough for the PC power supplies and radios or the external radio power supplies. During FD2007 I decided to add a UPS for each of 3 computers and then found that they all failed. Testing after FD showed that the generators were the problem. We don't use laptops, which, with their internal batteries have their own built-in UPS when you run them on the AC adapter. We use old Pentium desktops because for the last 3 years in a row we have had severe WX overnight, operating tents get blown down, computers and radios get soaked etc. It's part of the fun of FD :-)
The EMCOMM discussion reminded me that I should deal with this now and not wait for FD2008. Also I should be prepared all year, not just for FD, to run my house, radios and computers in an emergency environment. Recent ice storms in the U.S. with a million folks without power for a day or two reminded me of the ice storm in Quebec several years ago when tens of thousands lost power for weeks. Welcome to global warming and volatile WX. As usual it is a case of "not IF; but WHEN".
BTW, I've shown my support for AMSAT, the executive et al by renewing my membership to a Life Time membership prior to all the QRM in the last week. I would rather have made a separate donation but up here in the Great White North we don't get a tax deduction for a U.S. not-for-profit :-(
73, Alan VE4YZ EN19 AMSAT LM 2352 http://www.mts.net/~ve4wsc/ AMSAT A-485
-----Original Message----- From: amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org [mailto:amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org] On Behalf Of Nate Duehr Sent: December 17, 2007 7:31 PM To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Phase 4 versus Eagle
MKM wrote:
Forget the EMCOMM support, that does not make sense anymore. Read on...
WIMAX will be available from sprint soon. THAT will be a reliable technology for ecom. With one access point, they will cover a wide area for both data and voice. NOW, imagine multiple access point ( and I mean 2 or 3 max) and regardless of what the ecom situation is, help will get through.
This service will be coming from U.S. carriers who wouldn't even put battery/generator backup on most of their wireless POP's until told to do so by the FCC after Katrina:
http://www.datacenterknowledge.com/archives/2007/Dec/10/fcc_ruling_may_spur _generator_demand.html
Even with the new ruling, the FCC only recommends that such sites operate for 8 hours on emergency power.
In other words, they don't expect the cellular companies to REFUEL those generators in any timely fashion.
I worked for a large co-location company a few years ago, and we had a diesel contract that was VERY expensive.
I talked to the truck driver once, and he told me that the order of his stops in bad weather/disaster situations would have been:
Denver Health Medical Center - the alive ones at the hospital. Denver Police Headquarters and the Jail facility - the troublemakers, keep them inside. Denver Morgue - if it's warm out, you don't want the dead ones thawing and you probably have outdoor triage and refrigeration going on if things aren't quite as bad as Katrina. Denver Library - Security. Historical items. Our data center.
Another route for another truck included the telco central office (Denver Main), and the "telco hotel" next door, as it's only customers that truck would serve. As long as the outage lasted, those truck wouldn't leave their "circular" routes which were planned to arrive just as generators were running out of fuel in a continuous loop. Any delay and we (being at the bottom) would either fall off the list, or they'd make arrangements to skip the library.
That was his route with the diesel truck. He would run around in circles and do it all again, if the problem lasted for multiple days. . Cell sites? Nope. WiMax sites? No way.
Reality bites: Cell carriers don't pay to be on priority diesel contracts. Diesel deliveries to cell sites are on "best effort" contracts. They fall below everyone else with priority contracts.
Good luck with your WiMax as an EmComm tool. Let us know how well it serves you when the power goes out and the diesel trucks can't get to all those new generators at all the WiMax and cell sites
Nate WY0X
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb _______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb _______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
On Dec 18, 2007, at 4:23 AM, n1jez@burlingtontelecom.net <n1jez@burlingtontelecom.net
wrote:
One other thing we do is use a bypass system around the UPS in case that fails. Pulluzzi makes a nice one, but quite expensive. We've had a scenario where a UPS came on line, ran for a while, but then failed 'in circuit'. By that time, AC power had returned, but there was no way to restore power because of the UPS failure. With the Pulluzzi switch, power can be routed around a failed unit automatically.
I've had some direct contact with Pulluzzi gear for -48VDC power switching, and found it was, hmm.. how to put this nicely... somewhat unreliable. (That's being kind.)
Server Technology out of Utah makes some (also expensive) but robust gear for similar purposes and we've had great performance out of a number of their units.
This equipment is used for mountaintop transmission systems, so not the typical Ham application, but the ideas apply to most emergency type situations.
Yeah, sorry if it's off-topic for AMSAT-BB, but you don't see power switching and re-routing talked about too much in ham circles other than the repeater-building gang.
Probably lots of hams who don't know what's "out there" nowadays for nifty power-switching/monitoring/bypass toys! Too bad many are rather spendy for hobby use. They're really quite nice to use at work, though. Telnet to the box, go into a menu, turn off power switch #23 and #30... all from somewhere else.
Toys are good. Reliable toys are even better. When you can find them surplus and integrate them into your station, it's always nice.
-- Nate Duehr, WY0X nate@natetech.com
Fuel is not the only thing that will take out a site: 1- Wind Storm = no tower 2- Flood = circuits shorted, shelter swept away 3- Snow/Ice = collapses the equipment shelter, breaks antennas 4- Earthquake = takes out the interconnecting lines, tower, shelter, everything 5- Fire = bring marshmallows & frankfurts
Satellite-base infrastructure is largely insulated from these issues - IF: there is self-powered, portable equipment, randomly distributed, with trained operators ...sounds like Ham Radio?
At 04:30 PM 12/17/2007, Nate Duehr wrote:
MKM wrote:
Forget the EMCOMM support, that does not make sense anymore. Read on...
WIMAX will be available from sprint soon. THAT will be a reliable technology for ecom. With one access point, they will cover a wide area for both data and voice. NOW, imagine multiple access point ( and I mean 2 or 3 max) and regardless of what the ecom situation is, help will get through.
This service will be coming from U.S. carriers who wouldn't even put battery/generator backup on most of their wireless POP's until told to do so by the FCC after Katrina:
http://www.datacenterknowledge.com/archives/2007/Dec/10/fcc_ruling_may_spur_generator_demand.html
Even with the new ruling, the FCC only recommends that such sites operate for 8 hours on emergency power.
In other words, they don't expect the cellular companies to REFUEL those generators in any timely fashion.
I worked for a large co-location company a few years ago, and we had a diesel contract that was VERY expensive.
I talked to the truck driver once, and he told me that the order of his stops in bad weather/disaster situations would have been:
Denver Health Medical Center - the alive ones at the hospital. Denver Police Headquarters and the Jail facility - the troublemakers, keep them inside. Denver Morgue - if it's warm out, you don't want the dead ones thawing and you probably have outdoor triage and refrigeration going on if things aren't quite as bad as Katrina. Denver Library - Security. Historical items. Our data center.
Another route for another truck included the telco central office (Denver Main), and the "telco hotel" next door, as it's only customers that truck would serve. As long as the outage lasted, those truck wouldn't leave their "circular" routes which were planned to arrive just as generators were running out of fuel in a continuous loop. Any delay and we (being at the bottom) would either fall off the list, or they'd make arrangements to skip the library.
That was his route with the diesel truck. He would run around in circles and do it all again, if the problem lasted for multiple days. . Cell sites? Nope. WiMax sites? No way.
Reality bites: Cell carriers don't pay to be on priority diesel contracts. Diesel deliveries to cell sites are on "best effort" contracts. They fall below everyone else with priority contracts.
Good luck with your WiMax as an EmComm tool. Let us know how well it serves you when the power goes out and the diesel trucks can't get to all those new generators at all the WiMax and cell sites
Nate WY0X
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
73, Ed - KL7UW ====================================== BP40IQ 50-MHz - 10-GHz www.kl7uw.com 144-EME: FT-847, mgf-1801, 4x-xpol-20, 185w DUBUS Magazine USA Rep dubususa@hotmail.com ======================================
participants (14)
-
Alan -
Andrew Glasbrenner -
Anthony Monteiro -
Edward Cole -
Jim Wright -
Joe -
John Magliacane -
John Zaruba Jr -
MKM -
n1jez＠burlingtontelecom.net -
Nate Duehr -
Robert McGwier -
sco＠sco-inc.com -
Scott Townley