Re: AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol 4, Issue 464
It pains me to have to spend any energy answering all these comments about the Suitsat-2 and AMSAT problems. Here are the facts: No flights were missed. The Russians and the ARISS team have been working very hard to put together Suitsat-2 in a timely manner so that we could catch a ride to ISS on a Progress mission. The Russians declared the suit excess quite a while ago. The ISS is getting more and more crowded since it is now crewed by six people. There is a real problem with clearance around all the equipment on ISS. It's to the point of becoming a safety hazard. Each side has a finite amount of volume allocated. The suits were seen as a safety hazard because of this crowdedness. There wasn't a case of no one being notified. We all knew there was a space problem. It simply came down to a priority situation. Do you throw away something that you need to keep and have spent an enormous amount of money getting to ISS, or something that is very low on the priority? It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out where Suitsat fell on that list. In actuality this may have been a very good thing. We were having a very difficult time trying to figure out how to properly attach the solar panels to the suit so that they could properly power the electronics. Now we will take the solar panels and form a satellite enclosure around the electronics planned for Suitsat 2 and call it ARISSat-1.
We have been working very hard on designing this new configuration and are making excellent progress due to some very hard working volunteers both here in the U.S. and in Russia. I am sure the amount of work that is going on will never be realized by most on this BB but it is tremendous. What you hear about is only the tip of the iceberg. Not because its a secret but because most of us don't take the time to toot our horn. We should but thats the facts.
The team has not had time to listen to this series of comments on the BB because we are all dedicated to getting the project done in as fast and reliable a way as we can. I can tell you this is a very dedicated team and all are working hard and doing their best to finish their tasks while keeping their jobs and sanity. If you want names and more information come to the AMSAT symposium and meet some of them.
The Russians send up Progress resupply missions to ISS regularly so there will be other chances to send up the new ARISSat-1 satellite. There are at least four Russian EVAs planned for next year so there will be other chances to deploy ARISSat-1 so not to fret. The most important thing is to take the proper time to make sure it is done right so it will work properly and safely.
So those of you who have actual questions about the facts can send me or Gould Smith a private e-mail and I will try to answer you with facts. If you want to complain and not help, please don't send them to me or the team. We are too busy trying our best to make it happen just like we have been doing for many years on AMSAT, SAREX and ARISS projects. If you really do want to help, send me or any of the BOD a resume and tell us how you can help.
So I suggest you use this BB for it's intended purpose as being a way to exchange information about satellite operations. Don't use it as a way to pump your ego or to trash others.
Let's don't loose sight of the true objectives here. Let's have fun and leave a legacy for those coming after us that we will all be proud of. My grandson just got his Ham license that makes me very proud!
Lou McFadin W5DID AMSAT BOD ARISS US Hardware manager
On Sep 12, 2009, at 11:10 PM, [email protected] wrote:
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Today's Topics:
- Re: Volunteered (Mark Lunday)
- FN51 operations (Dave Webb KB1PVH)
- AO-51 update 12 Sept 2009 (Mark L. Hammond)
- Re: (Reporting web pages needing updates) (John P. Toscano)
- Re: AO-51 update 12 Sept 2009 (Andrew Rich)
- Re: Volunteered (Bill Ress)
- Re: Volunteered (Rocky Jones)
- Re: Volunteered ([email protected])
- Re: Volunteered (Dale Hershberger)
- Re: Volunteered (Rocky Jones)
- Re: Volunteered (Nigel Gunn G8IFF/W8IFF)
- Re: Volunteered (Kevin Smith)
- Re: Volunteered (Rocky Jones)
- Re: Volunteered (Andrew Rich)
Message: 1 Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 16:50:30 -0400 From: "Mark Lunday" [email protected] Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Volunteered To: "'Rocky Jones'" [email protected], [email protected], [email protected] Cc: [email protected], 'Amsat BB' [email protected] Message-ID: [email protected] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Chiming in, after watching this go back and forth and feeling frustrated here.
The issue here is about holding volunteers accountable as if they were paid staff. It's about expectations as well.
Noone is questioning whether the volunteers worked their butts off. What we're talking about is that the AMSAT community (at least some, anyway) have an expectation of performance equivalent to what would be provided by full-time paid staff. Well, as long as it's volunteers only, that expectation is not reasonable (IMHO). None of the volunteers can provide that kind of support day-in and day-out. Holding volunteers to that standard is, in my opinion, a mistake.
Having said that, what AMSAT volunteers have accomplished is SO FAR ABOVE what a normal volunteer organization achieves, that it BOGGLES THE MIND. I have been an AMSAT member for 18 months and active on satellites for about as long. To see what has been achieved by volunteers, spanning across geography, is AMAZING. The ability to ask ANY question about satellites in general and AMSAT in particular on this BB, and get an accurate response in a timely fashion is impressive. The collective intellectual capital and horsepower is deep and very valuable.
And THAT'S the issue! We're so accustomed to outstanding performance on so many things with AMSAT that we start *expecting* above and beyond in all cases. That's not always realistic.
I had a few 1:1 threads with some folks about this over the past few days, and I think we could address some of the problems if we had a paid position or two. I understand that this is being presented to the ARRL in the near future (additional funding support)
Another side note: it sounds like more communication/interaction would help clarify some of these questions and concerns. Regular status reporting on progress for specific projects would help the community understand: (1) the progress (2) the risks (3) the level of effort provided by the volunteers (4) opportunities for additional input for addressing problems (leveraging some of that powerful intellectual capital and horsepower in our community).
Meanwhile, as a project manager w/ PMP cert, Electrical Engineer, and a 35 year ham with military background, I am raising my hand as a volunteer for helping with the planning of future AMSAT projects
Mark Lunday WD4ELG Hillsborough, NC - FM06kb [email protected] http://wd4elg.net http://wd4elg.blogspot.com
Message: 2 Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 21:18:07 +0000 From: "Dave Webb KB1PVH" [email protected] Subject: [amsat-bb] FN51 operations To: "AMSAT BB" [email protected] Message-ID: <1853931992-1252790287- cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-401973086- @bda400.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
Content-Type: text/plain
Hello all,
I have arrived at FN51 on Cape Cod. Unfortunately, it is raining, thundering, and a bit of lightning. I think it is best to hold off for a bit from waving my lightning rod at the sky. If things clear up a bit, I will give it a shot. The weather is supposed to be better tomorrow.
73,
Dave KB1PVH
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
Message: 3 Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 17:27:15 -0400 From: "Mark L. Hammond" [email protected] Subject: [amsat-bb] AO-51 update 12 Sept 2009 To: [email protected] Message-ID: [email protected] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Reloading of the satellite continues.
From the front page of the AMSAT web page:
AO-51 is off the air while the software reload is in progress. We hope to have it operational by the first of the week.
AO-51 Command team
73,
Mark L. Hammond [N8MH]
Message: 4 Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 16:46:06 -0500 From: "John P. Toscano" [email protected] Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: (Reporting web pages needing updates) Cc: "'Amsat BB'" [email protected] Message-ID: [email protected] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Andrew Rich (Home) wrote:
No I meant
" I found this page is old and needs to be deleted"
Many hands make light work
Andrew: I think that the following solution will help you accomplish your goal...
At the bottom of many pages of the AMSAT web site is a link entitled: "Report a bug on this page"
Click on the link, and a form pops up. The form is pre-filled with the URL of the "offending" web page, i.e. the web page you were on at the time you clicked on the link. Fill in the rest of the form and click on the button labeled: Submit Report
One of the questions on the form is "Issue Type", and the drop-down list include numerous choices, such as: -- malformed text -- broken link -- outdated information -- misspelling -- punctuation and several others. You don't even have to start up your email client; the form goes to the appropriate person when you click on the Submit button.
If the page with a problem does not have one of these links on it, you could manually type in the following URL into your browser: http://www.amsat.org/amsat-new/bugform.php
The only problem with this is you will have to manually fill in the line on the form that specifies what web page is problematic. Of course, before you change to this URL, use your mouse to highlight the current URL (where the problem is located), hit Ctrl+C to copy the URL to the Windows Clipboard, then go to the bugform page, mouse or tab to that field, and hit Ctrl+V to paste in the URL. [My apologies in advance for giving you Windows-centric instructions if you are using a different OS family.]
This seems even easier to me than an email alias to which you send problem reports, but maybe that's just me...
But I clearly agree, a thousand pairs of eyes can find more errors and omissions than a single pair of eyes. www.nlrs.org (which I maintain) is comprised of over 4000 files, so I assume that www.amsat.org is much bigger!
73 de W0JT
Message: 5 Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 07:51:59 +1000 From: "Andrew Rich" [email protected] Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: AO-51 update 12 Sept 2009 To: [email protected], "Mark L. Hammond" [email protected] Message-ID: 1E3E3D647EFE4E4E899F5249C789AC3B@home9e3111fa81 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original
Vista probs huh
Andrew Rich Airways Technical Officer Grade 4 Surveillance - RADAR ADS-B Amateur Radio Callsign VK4TEC email: [email protected] web: www.tech-software.net ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark L. Hammond" [email protected] To: [email protected] Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2009 7:27 AM Subject: [amsat-bb] AO-51 update 12 Sept 2009
Reloading of the satellite continues.
From the front page of the AMSAT web page:
AO-51 is off the air while the software reload is in progress. We hope to have it operational by the first of the week.
AO-51 Command team
73,
Mark L. Hammond [N8MH] _______________________________________________ Sent via [email protected]. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.13.92/2364 - Release Date: 09/11/09 17:51:00
Message: 6 Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 15:06:49 -0700 From: Bill Ress [email protected] Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Volunteered To: Mark Lunday [email protected] Cc: [email protected], 'Amsat BB' [email protected] Message-ID: [email protected] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Hi Mark,
Thanks for your comments and your offer to volunteer.
Why don't you contact me off line and we can talk about your specific interests.
Regards...Bill - N6GHz
Mark Lunday wrote:
Chiming in, after watching this go back and forth and feeling frustrated here.
The issue here is about holding volunteers accountable as if they were paid staff. It's about expectations as well.
Noone is questioning whether the volunteers worked their butts off. What we're talking about is that the AMSAT community (at least some, anyway) have an expectation of performance equivalent to what would be provided by full-time paid staff. Well, as long as it's volunteers only, that expectation is not reasonable (IMHO). None of the volunteers can provide that kind of support day-in and day-out. Holding volunteers to that standard is, in my opinion, a mistake.
Having said that, what AMSAT volunteers have accomplished is SO FAR ABOVE what a normal volunteer organization achieves, that it BOGGLES THE MIND. I have been an AMSAT member for 18 months and active on satellites for about as long. To see what has been achieved by volunteers, spanning across geography, is AMAZING. The ability to ask ANY question about satellites in general and AMSAT in particular on this BB, and get an accurate response in a timely fashion is impressive. The collective intellectual capital and horsepower is deep and very valuable.
And THAT'S the issue! We're so accustomed to outstanding performance on so many things with AMSAT that we start *expecting* above and beyond in all cases. That's not always realistic.
I had a few 1:1 threads with some folks about this over the past few days, and I think we could address some of the problems if we had a paid position or two. I understand that this is being presented to the ARRL in the near future (additional funding support)
Another side note: it sounds like more communication/interaction would help clarify some of these questions and concerns. Regular status reporting on progress for specific projects would help the community understand: (1) the progress (2) the risks (3) the level of effort provided by the volunteers (4) opportunities for additional input for addressing problems (leveraging some of that powerful intellectual capital and horsepower in our community).
Meanwhile, as a project manager w/ PMP cert, Electrical Engineer, and a 35 year ham with military background, I am raising my hand as a volunteer for helping with the planning of future AMSAT projects
Mark Lunday WD4ELG Hillsborough, NC - FM06kb [email protected] http://wd4elg.net http://wd4elg.blogspot.com
Message: 7 Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 17:09:47 -0500 From: Rocky Jones [email protected] Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Volunteered To: [email protected], [email protected], [email protected] Cc: [email protected], Amsat BB [email protected] Message-ID: [email protected] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Noone is questioning whether the volunteers worked their butts off. What we're talking about is that the AMSAT community (at least some, anyway) have an expectation of performance equivalent to what would be provided by full-time paid staff. Well, as long as it's volunteers only, that expectation is not reasonable (IMHO).
Mark.
"level of performance".
No one at least in their right mind would expect a "volunteer" to equal the work through put of a paid employee...
For example..in The Church of Christ (where I worship) any fool can get into the pulpit and preach...and the other hand the preacher is expected to have three sermons a week ready to go...
But the volunteers need to have similar levels of competency in the tools being used as the Preacher or they should not be allowed into the pulpit in the first place.
It is like tower climbing...I dont do it as fastl as the folks who professionally climb the 1000 footer that our clubs machine is on...but for the team that does it to get on the tower...we had to meet a minimium level of competency and demonstrate that.
No matter how it is spun suitsat 1 was a failure.
Good engineering standards would dictate figuring out the weak links and then correcting them trying something that perhaps was a bit more "sophisticated" but not all that much more...if for no other reason to make sure that the methods that defeat the failure are well understood.
Instead what happened is that the "team" put together a project so complicated that they missed their free launch.
I dont care how good the engineering is to miss a free launch is bad management.
That reality seems to bite some folks
Robert WB5MZO
Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/171222985/direct/01/
Message: 8 Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 23:05:07 +0000 From: [email protected] Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Volunteered To: "Rocky Jones" [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], "Bill Ress" [email protected] Cc: [email protected], amsat bb [email protected] Message-ID: <1167601682-1252796952- cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1812505125- @bda357.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
Content-Type: text/plain
This is unadulterated bull shit made from whole cloth.
We have a free launch just as we have always have. The russians, as is their right when they have command, decided with all the equipment modeled people coming up to toss all orlan suits without notice to us (and they owed us nothing).
I would be the very last person to say AMSAT is above all criticism but you are clearly nor the spokesperson needed for the critics. Your notes are those of a person who wants to fiddle while he burns Rome. What is needed in my not so humble opinion is a spokesperson for the critics who is not perceived as full of animus.
Bob N4HY LM
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
-----Original Message----- From: Rocky Jones [email protected]
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 17:09:47 To: [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected] Cc: [email protected]; Amsat BB[email protected] Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Volunteered
Noone is questioning whether the volunteers worked their butts off. What we're talking about is that the AMSAT community (at least some, anyway) have an expectation of performance equivalent to what would be provided by full-time paid staff. Well, as long as it's volunteers only, that expectation is not reasonable (IMHO).
Mark.
"level of performance".
No one at least in their right mind would expect a "volunteer" to equal the work through put of a paid employee...
For example..in The Church of Christ (where I worship) any fool can get into the pulpit and preach...and the other hand the preacher is expected to have three sermons a week ready to go...
But the volunteers need to have similar levels of competency in the tools being used as the Preacher or they should not be allowed into the pulpit in the first place.
It is like tower climbing...I dont do it as fastl as the folks who professionally climb the 1000 footer that our clubs machine is on...but for the team that does it to get on the tower...we had to meet a minimium level of competency and demonstrate that.
No matter how it is spun suitsat 1 was a failure.
Good engineering standards would dictate figuring out the weak links and then correcting them trying something that perhaps was a bit more "sophisticated" but not all that much more...if for no other reason to make sure that the methods that defeat the failure are well understood.
Instead what happened is that the "team" put together a project so complicated that they missed their free launch.
I dont care how good the engineering is to miss a free launch is bad management.
That reality seems to bite some folks
Robert WB5MZO
Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/171222985/direct/01/ _______________________________________________ Sent via [email protected]. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Message: 9 Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 15:21:43 -0700 From: Dale Hershberger [email protected] Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Volunteered To: Rocky Jones [email protected], amsat bbs [email protected] Cc: amsat bbs [email protected] Message-ID: [email protected] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Rocky Jones wrote:
Noone is questioning whether the volunteers worked their butts off. What we're talking about is that the AMSAT community (at least some, anyway) have an expectation of performance equivalent to what would be provided by full-time paid staff. Well, as long as it's volunteers only, that expectation is not reasonable (IMHO).
Mark.
"level of performance".
No one at least in their right mind would expect a "volunteer" to equal the work through put of a paid employee...
For example..in The Church of Christ (where I worship) any fool can get into the pulpit and preach...and the other hand the preacher is expected to have three sermons a week ready to go...
But the volunteers need to have similar levels of competency in the tools being used as the Preacher or they should not be allowed into the pulpit in the first place.
It is like tower climbing...I dont do it as fastl as the folks who professionally climb the 1000 footer that our clubs machine is on...but for the team that does it to get on the tower...we had to meet a minimium level of competency and demonstrate that.
No matter how it is spun suitsat 1 was a failure.
Good engineering standards would dictate figuring out the weak links and then correcting them trying something that perhaps was a bit more "sophisticated" but not all that much more...if for no other reason to make sure that the methods that defeat the failure are well understood.
Instead what happened is that the "team" put together a project so complicated that they missed their free launch.
I dont care how good the engineering is to miss a free launch is bad management.
That reality seems to bite some folks
Robert WB5MZO
Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/171222985/direct/01/ _______________________________________________ Sent via [email protected]. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
I really want to reply in good faith. It is very difficult in light of the nature the tone of the way this thread is going. I am a member of AMSAT and proud of it. The organization is made up of volunteers.....Read Volunteers! Things will go wrong.. When we have problems we look for the weak points and focus on the corrections that can be made.
What I do not understand is the persistent bashing of the BOD or managers of this non profit volunteer corporation. We are not the Boeing, Lockheed or the USAF.
If something is not going your way contact a board member and deal directly with them. The way this thread is going it is accomplishing nothing more then degrading or demeaning the volunteer and contributing members of AMSAT. We have a lot of folks on this bb that have a lot of very good information to contribute to all. I just am really disappointed to see some very talented folks carry this thread to the point where it turns others off.
I do not expect a reply to this. I just wanted to express my opinion
Dale - KL7XJ
Message: 10 Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 20:17:45 -0500 From: Rocky Jones [email protected] Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Volunteered To: [email protected], Amsat BB [email protected] Message-ID: [email protected] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
What I do not understand is the persistent bashing of the BOD or managers of this non profit volunteer corporation. We are not the
Boeing, Lockheed or the USAF.
If something is not going your way contact a board member and deal directly with them.
The way this thread is going it is accomplishing nothing more then degrading or demeaning the volunteer and contributing members of AMSAT.
We have a lot of folks on this bb that have a lot of very good information to contribute to all. I just am really disappointed
to see some very talented folks carry this thread to the point where it turns others off.
I do not expect a reply to this. I just wanted to express my opinion
Dale - KL7XJ
Dale. Pointing out errors in performance that are consistent is not bashing...and it doesnt matter if they are volunteers or paid staff.
If they cannot deal with responsible criticism, and oddly enough no one has refuted the statement I made that 1) they missed a launch date and 2) in large measure because they bit off to large a project...
instead all one gets is "wow I am upset because you are pointing out flaws in my performance, I am a volunteer I work 16-18 hours a day and wow this is space".
No one is calling them stupid, indeed the only people who have blown their corks are those who dont have answers to reasonable questions.
Robert WB5MZO
Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/171222984/direct/01/
Message: 11 Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 02:12:41 +0000 From: Nigel Gunn G8IFF/W8IFF [email protected] Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Volunteered To: Amsat BB [email protected] Message-ID: [email protected] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
It amazes me that this group does not have an owner/moderator/ administrator to stop/delete/kill all this worthless bitching.
Rocky Jones wrote:
What I do not understand is the persistent bashing of the BOD or managers of this non profit volunteer corporation. We are not the
Message: 12 Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 22:15:17 -0400 From: Kevin Smith [email protected] Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Volunteered To: Nigel Gunn G8IFF/W8IFF [email protected] Cc: Amsat BB [email protected] Message-ID: [email protected] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; delsp=yes
Failing that can we at least stop feeding this troll.
Kevin Smith N3HKQ
On Sep 12, 2009, at 10:12 PM, Nigel Gunn G8IFF/W8IFF [email protected] wrote:
It amazes me that this group does not have an owner/moderator/ administrator to stop/delete/kill all this worthless bitching.
Rocky Jones wrote:
What I do not understand is the persistent bashing of the BOD or managers of this non profit volunteer corporation. We are not the
Sent via [email protected]. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Message: 13 Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 21:41:32 -0500 From: Rocky Jones [email protected] Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Volunteered To: [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected] Cc: [email protected], Amsat BB [email protected] Message-ID: [email protected] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
We have a free launch just as we have always have. The russians, as is their right when they have command, decided with all the equipment modeled people coming up to toss all orlan suits without notice to us (and they owed us nothing).
Bob. I am told by people at JSC that this is not an accurate statement.
Robert WB5MZO
Bing brings you health info from trusted sources. http://www.bing.com/search?q=pet+allergy&form=MHEINA&publ=WLHMTAG&am...
Message: 14 Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 11:19:04 +1000 From: "Andrew Rich" [email protected] Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Volunteered To: "Dale Hershberger" [email protected], "Rocky Jones" [email protected], "amsat bbs" [email protected] Cc: amsat bbs [email protected] Message-ID: 670D13D572204184BDA77DF2B146F0A0@home9e3111fa81 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original
http://php.opensourcecms.com/scripts/show.php?catid=all&cat=All%20Script...
CMS - kewl
Andrew Rich Airways Technical Officer Grade 4 Surveillance - RADAR ADS-B Amateur Radio Callsign VK4TEC email: [email protected] web: www.tech-software.net ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dale Hershberger" [email protected] To: "Rocky Jones" [email protected]; "amsat bbs" <[email protected]
Cc: "amsat bbs" [email protected] Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2009 8:21 AM Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Volunteered
Rocky Jones wrote:
Noone is questioning whether the volunteers worked their butts off. What we're talking about is that the AMSAT community (at least some, anyway) have an expectation of performance equivalent to what would be provided by full-time paid staff. Well, as long as it's volunteers only, that expectation is not reasonable (IMHO).
Mark.
"level of performance".
No one at least in their right mind would expect a "volunteer" to equal the work through put of a paid employee...
For example..in The Church of Christ (where I worship) any fool can get into the pulpit and preach...and the other hand the preacher is expected to have three sermons a week ready to go...
But the volunteers need to have similar levels of competency in the tools being used as the Preacher or they should not be allowed into the pulpit in the first place.
It is like tower climbing...I dont do it as fastl as the folks who professionally climb the 1000 footer that our clubs machine is on...but for the team that does it to get on the tower...we had to meet a minimium level of competency and demonstrate that.
No matter how it is spun suitsat 1 was a failure.
Good engineering standards would dictate figuring out the weak links and then correcting them trying something that perhaps was a bit more "sophisticated" but not all that much more...if for no other reason to make sure that the methods that defeat the failure are well understood.
Instead what happened is that the "team" put together a project so complicated that they missed their free launch.
I dont care how good the engineering is to miss a free launch is bad management.
That reality seems to bite some folks
Robert WB5MZO
Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/171222985/direct/01/ _______________________________________________ Sent via [email protected]. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
I really want to reply in good faith. It is very difficult in light of the nature the tone of the way this thread is going. I am a member of AMSAT and proud of it. The organization is made up of volunteers.....Read Volunteers! Things will go wrong.. When we have problems we look for the weak points and focus on the corrections that can be made.
What I do not understand is the persistent bashing of the BOD or managers of this non profit volunteer corporation. We are not the Boeing, Lockheed or the USAF.
If something is not going your way contact a board member and deal directly with them. The way this thread is going it is accomplishing nothing more then degrading or demeaning the volunteer and contributing members of AMSAT. We have a lot of folks on this bb that have a lot of very good information to contribute to all. I just am really disappointed to see some very talented folks carry this thread to the point where it turns others off.
I do not expect a reply to this. I just wanted to express my opinion
Dale - KL7XJ _______________________________________________ Sent via [email protected]. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
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End of AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol 4, Issue 464
Hi Lou,
Thanks for taking your time to present the facts. While this takes you away from the important work at hand, it needed to be said.
Regards...Bill - N6GHz ARRISat Team Member
Louis McFadin wrote:
It pains me to have to spend any energy answering all these comments about the Suitsat-2 and AMSAT problems. Here are the facts: No flights were missed. The Russians and the ARISS team have been working very hard to put together Suitsat-2 in a timely manner so that we could catch a ride to ISS on a Progress mission. The Russians declared the suit excess quite a while ago. The ISS is getting more and more crowded since it is now crewed by six people. There is a real problem with clearance around all the equipment on ISS. It's to the point of becoming a safety hazard. Each side has a finite amount of volume allocated. The suits were seen as a safety hazard because of this crowdedness. There wasn't a case of no one being notified. We all knew there was a space problem. It simply came down to a priority situation. Do you throw away something that you need to keep and have spent an enormous amount of money getting to ISS, or something that is very low on the priority? It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out where Suitsat fell on that list. In actuality this may have been a very good thing. We were having a very difficult time trying to figure out how to properly attach the solar panels to the suit so that they could properly power the electronics. Now we will take the solar panels and form a satellite enclosure around the electronics planned for Suitsat 2 and call it ARISSat-1.
We have been working very hard on designing this new configuration and are making excellent progress due to some very hard working volunteers both here in the U.S. and in Russia. I am sure the amount of work that is going on will never be realized by most on this BB but it is tremendous. What you hear about is only the tip of the iceberg. Not because its a secret but because most of us don't take the time to toot our horn. We should but thats the facts.
The team has not had time to listen to this series of comments on the BB because we are all dedicated to getting the project done in as fast and reliable a way as we can. I can tell you this is a very dedicated team and all are working hard and doing their best to finish their tasks while keeping their jobs and sanity. If you want names and more information come to the AMSAT symposium and meet some of them.
The Russians send up Progress resupply missions to ISS regularly so there will be other chances to send up the new ARISSat-1 satellite. There are at least four Russian EVAs planned for next year so there will be other chances to deploy ARISSat-1 so not to fret. The most important thing is to take the proper time to make sure it is done right so it will work properly and safely.
So those of you who have actual questions about the facts can send me or Gould Smith a private e-mail and I will try to answer you with facts. If you want to complain and not help, please don't send them to me or the team. We are too busy trying our best to make it happen just like we have been doing for many years on AMSAT, SAREX and ARISS projects. If you really do want to help, send me or any of the BOD a resume and tell us how you can help.
So I suggest you use this BB for it's intended purpose as being a way to exchange information about satellite operations. Don't use it as a way to pump your ego or to trash others.
Let's don't loose sight of the true objectives here. Let's have fun and leave a legacy for those coming after us that we will all be proud of. My grandson just got his Ham license that makes me very proud!
Lou McFadin W5DID AMSAT BOD ARISS US Hardware manager
On Sep 12, 2009, at 11:10 PM, [email protected] wrote:
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Today's Topics:
- Re: Volunteered (Mark Lunday)
- FN51 operations (Dave Webb KB1PVH)
- AO-51 update 12 Sept 2009 (Mark L. Hammond)
- Re: (Reporting web pages needing updates) (John P. Toscano)
- Re: AO-51 update 12 Sept 2009 (Andrew Rich)
- Re: Volunteered (Bill Ress)
- Re: Volunteered (Rocky Jones)
- Re: Volunteered ([email protected])
- Re: Volunteered (Dale Hershberger)
- Re: Volunteered (Rocky Jones)
- Re: Volunteered (Nigel Gunn G8IFF/W8IFF)
- Re: Volunteered (Kevin Smith)
- Re: Volunteered (Rocky Jones)
- Re: Volunteered (Andrew Rich)
Message: 1 Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 16:50:30 -0400 From: "Mark Lunday" [email protected] Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Volunteered To: "'Rocky Jones'" [email protected], [email protected], [email protected] Cc: [email protected], 'Amsat BB' [email protected] Message-ID: [email protected] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Chiming in, after watching this go back and forth and feeling frustrated here.
The issue here is about holding volunteers accountable as if they were paid staff. It's about expectations as well.
Noone is questioning whether the volunteers worked their butts off. What we're talking about is that the AMSAT community (at least some, anyway) have an expectation of performance equivalent to what would be provided by full-time paid staff. Well, as long as it's volunteers only, that expectation is not reasonable (IMHO). None of the volunteers can provide that kind of support day-in and day-out. Holding volunteers to that standard is, in my opinion, a mistake.
Having said that, what AMSAT volunteers have accomplished is SO FAR ABOVE what a normal volunteer organization achieves, that it BOGGLES THE MIND. I have been an AMSAT member for 18 months and active on satellites for about as long. To see what has been achieved by volunteers, spanning across geography, is AMAZING. The ability to ask ANY question about satellites in general and AMSAT in particular on this BB, and get an accurate response in a timely fashion is impressive. The collective intellectual capital and horsepower is deep and very valuable.
And THAT'S the issue! We're so accustomed to outstanding performance on so many things with AMSAT that we start *expecting* above and beyond in all cases. That's not always realistic.
I had a few 1:1 threads with some folks about this over the past few days, and I think we could address some of the problems if we had a paid position or two. I understand that this is being presented to the ARRL in the near future (additional funding support)
Another side note: it sounds like more communication/interaction would help clarify some of these questions and concerns. Regular status reporting on progress for specific projects would help the community understand: (1) the progress (2) the risks (3) the level of effort provided by the volunteers (4) opportunities for additional input for addressing problems (leveraging some of that powerful intellectual capital and horsepower in our community).
Meanwhile, as a project manager w/ PMP cert, Electrical Engineer, and a 35 year ham with military background, I am raising my hand as a volunteer for helping with the planning of future AMSAT projects
Mark Lunday WD4ELG Hillsborough, NC - FM06kb [email protected] http://wd4elg.net http://wd4elg.blogspot.com
Message: 2 Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 21:18:07 +0000 From: "Dave Webb KB1PVH" [email protected] Subject: [amsat-bb] FN51 operations To: "AMSAT BB" [email protected] Message-ID: <1853931992-1252790287- cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-401973086- @bda400.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
Content-Type: text/plain
Hello all,
I have arrived at FN51 on Cape Cod. Unfortunately, it is raining, thundering, and a bit of lightning. I think it is best to hold off for a bit from waving my lightning rod at the sky. If things clear up a bit, I will give it a shot. The weather is supposed to be better tomorrow.
73,
Dave KB1PVH
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
Message: 3 Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 17:27:15 -0400 From: "Mark L. Hammond" [email protected] Subject: [amsat-bb] AO-51 update 12 Sept 2009 To: [email protected] Message-ID: [email protected] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Reloading of the satellite continues.
From the front page of the AMSAT web page:
AO-51 is off the air while the software reload is in progress. We hope to have it operational by the first of the week.
AO-51 Command team
73,
Mark L. Hammond [N8MH]
Message: 4 Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 16:46:06 -0500 From: "John P. Toscano" [email protected] Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: (Reporting web pages needing updates) Cc: "'Amsat BB'" [email protected] Message-ID: [email protected] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Andrew Rich (Home) wrote:
No I meant
" I found this page is old and needs to be deleted"
Many hands make light work
Andrew: I think that the following solution will help you accomplish your goal...
At the bottom of many pages of the AMSAT web site is a link entitled: "Report a bug on this page"
Click on the link, and a form pops up. The form is pre-filled with the URL of the "offending" web page, i.e. the web page you were on at the time you clicked on the link. Fill in the rest of the form and click on the button labeled: Submit Report
One of the questions on the form is "Issue Type", and the drop-down list include numerous choices, such as: -- malformed text -- broken link -- outdated information -- misspelling -- punctuation and several others. You don't even have to start up your email client; the form goes to the appropriate person when you click on the Submit button.
If the page with a problem does not have one of these links on it, you could manually type in the following URL into your browser: http://www.amsat.org/amsat-new/bugform.php
The only problem with this is you will have to manually fill in the line on the form that specifies what web page is problematic. Of course, before you change to this URL, use your mouse to highlight the current URL (where the problem is located), hit Ctrl+C to copy the URL to the Windows Clipboard, then go to the bugform page, mouse or tab to that field, and hit Ctrl+V to paste in the URL. [My apologies in advance for giving you Windows-centric instructions if you are using a different OS family.]
This seems even easier to me than an email alias to which you send problem reports, but maybe that's just me...
But I clearly agree, a thousand pairs of eyes can find more errors and omissions than a single pair of eyes. www.nlrs.org (which I maintain) is comprised of over 4000 files, so I assume that www.amsat.org is much bigger!
73 de W0JT
Message: 5 Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 07:51:59 +1000 From: "Andrew Rich" [email protected] Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: AO-51 update 12 Sept 2009 To: [email protected], "Mark L. Hammond" [email protected] Message-ID: 1E3E3D647EFE4E4E899F5249C789AC3B@home9e3111fa81 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original
Vista probs huh
Andrew Rich Airways Technical Officer Grade 4 Surveillance - RADAR ADS-B Amateur Radio Callsign VK4TEC email: [email protected] web: www.tech-software.net ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark L. Hammond" [email protected] To: [email protected] Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2009 7:27 AM Subject: [amsat-bb] AO-51 update 12 Sept 2009
Reloading of the satellite continues.
From the front page of the AMSAT web page:
AO-51 is off the air while the software reload is in progress. We hope to have it operational by the first of the week.
AO-51 Command team
73,
Mark L. Hammond [N8MH] _______________________________________________ Sent via [email protected]. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
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Message: 6 Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 15:06:49 -0700 From: Bill Ress [email protected] Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Volunteered To: Mark Lunday [email protected] Cc: [email protected], 'Amsat BB' [email protected] Message-ID: [email protected] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Hi Mark,
Thanks for your comments and your offer to volunteer.
Why don't you contact me off line and we can talk about your specific interests.
Regards...Bill - N6GHz
Mark Lunday wrote:
Chiming in, after watching this go back and forth and feeling frustrated here.
The issue here is about holding volunteers accountable as if they were paid staff. It's about expectations as well.
Noone is questioning whether the volunteers worked their butts off. What we're talking about is that the AMSAT community (at least some, anyway) have an expectation of performance equivalent to what would be provided by full-time paid staff. Well, as long as it's volunteers only, that expectation is not reasonable (IMHO). None of the volunteers can provide that kind of support day-in and day-out. Holding volunteers to that standard is, in my opinion, a mistake.
Having said that, what AMSAT volunteers have accomplished is SO FAR ABOVE what a normal volunteer organization achieves, that it BOGGLES THE MIND. I have been an AMSAT member for 18 months and active on satellites for about as long. To see what has been achieved by volunteers, spanning across geography, is AMAZING. The ability to ask ANY question about satellites in general and AMSAT in particular on this BB, and get an accurate response in a timely fashion is impressive. The collective intellectual capital and horsepower is deep and very valuable.
And THAT'S the issue! We're so accustomed to outstanding performance on so many things with AMSAT that we start *expecting* above and beyond in all cases. That's not always realistic.
I had a few 1:1 threads with some folks about this over the past few days, and I think we could address some of the problems if we had a paid position or two. I understand that this is being presented to the ARRL in the near future (additional funding support)
Another side note: it sounds like more communication/interaction would help clarify some of these questions and concerns. Regular status reporting on progress for specific projects would help the community understand: (1) the progress (2) the risks (3) the level of effort provided by the volunteers (4) opportunities for additional input for addressing problems (leveraging some of that powerful intellectual capital and horsepower in our community).
Meanwhile, as a project manager w/ PMP cert, Electrical Engineer, and a 35 year ham with military background, I am raising my hand as a volunteer for helping with the planning of future AMSAT projects
Mark Lunday WD4ELG Hillsborough, NC - FM06kb [email protected] http://wd4elg.net http://wd4elg.blogspot.com
Message: 7 Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 17:09:47 -0500 From: Rocky Jones [email protected] Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Volunteered To: [email protected], [email protected], [email protected] Cc: [email protected], Amsat BB [email protected] Message-ID: [email protected] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Noone is questioning whether the volunteers worked their butts off. What we're talking about is that the AMSAT community (at least some, anyway) have an expectation of performance equivalent to what would be provided by full-time paid staff. Well, as long as it's volunteers only, that expectation is not reasonable (IMHO).
Mark.
"level of performance".
No one at least in their right mind would expect a "volunteer" to equal the work through put of a paid employee...
For example..in The Church of Christ (where I worship) any fool can get into the pulpit and preach...and the other hand the preacher is expected to have three sermons a week ready to go...
But the volunteers need to have similar levels of competency in the tools being used as the Preacher or they should not be allowed into the pulpit in the first place.
It is like tower climbing...I dont do it as fastl as the folks who professionally climb the 1000 footer that our clubs machine is on...but for the team that does it to get on the tower...we had to meet a minimium level of competency and demonstrate that.
No matter how it is spun suitsat 1 was a failure.
Good engineering standards would dictate figuring out the weak links and then correcting them trying something that perhaps was a bit more "sophisticated" but not all that much more...if for no other reason to make sure that the methods that defeat the failure are well understood.
Instead what happened is that the "team" put together a project so complicated that they missed their free launch.
I dont care how good the engineering is to miss a free launch is bad management.
That reality seems to bite some folks
Robert WB5MZO
Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/171222985/direct/01/
Message: 8 Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 23:05:07 +0000 From: [email protected] Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Volunteered To: "Rocky Jones" [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], "Bill Ress" [email protected] Cc: [email protected], amsat bb [email protected] Message-ID: <1167601682-1252796952- cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1812505125- @bda357.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
Content-Type: text/plain
This is unadulterated bull shit made from whole cloth.
We have a free launch just as we have always have. The russians, as is their right when they have command, decided with all the equipment modeled people coming up to toss all orlan suits without notice to us (and they owed us nothing).
I would be the very last person to say AMSAT is above all criticism but you are clearly nor the spokesperson needed for the critics. Your notes are those of a person who wants to fiddle while he burns Rome. What is needed in my not so humble opinion is a spokesperson for the critics who is not perceived as full of animus.
Bob N4HY LM
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
-----Original Message----- From: Rocky Jones [email protected]
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 17:09:47 To: [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected] Cc: [email protected]; Amsat BB[email protected] Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Volunteered
Noone is questioning whether the volunteers worked their butts off. What we're talking about is that the AMSAT community (at least some, anyway) have an expectation of performance equivalent to what would be provided by full-time paid staff. Well, as long as it's volunteers only, that expectation is not reasonable (IMHO).
Mark.
"level of performance".
No one at least in their right mind would expect a "volunteer" to equal the work through put of a paid employee...
For example..in The Church of Christ (where I worship) any fool can get into the pulpit and preach...and the other hand the preacher is expected to have three sermons a week ready to go...
But the volunteers need to have similar levels of competency in the tools being used as the Preacher or they should not be allowed into the pulpit in the first place.
It is like tower climbing...I dont do it as fastl as the folks who professionally climb the 1000 footer that our clubs machine is on...but for the team that does it to get on the tower...we had to meet a minimium level of competency and demonstrate that.
No matter how it is spun suitsat 1 was a failure.
Good engineering standards would dictate figuring out the weak links and then correcting them trying something that perhaps was a bit more "sophisticated" but not all that much more...if for no other reason to make sure that the methods that defeat the failure are well understood.
Instead what happened is that the "team" put together a project so complicated that they missed their free launch.
I dont care how good the engineering is to miss a free launch is bad management.
That reality seems to bite some folks
Robert WB5MZO
Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/171222985/direct/01/ _______________________________________________ Sent via [email protected]. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Message: 9 Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 15:21:43 -0700 From: Dale Hershberger [email protected] Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Volunteered To: Rocky Jones [email protected], amsat bbs [email protected] Cc: amsat bbs [email protected] Message-ID: [email protected] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Rocky Jones wrote:
Noone is questioning whether the volunteers worked their butts off. What we're talking about is that the AMSAT community (at least some, anyway) have an expectation of performance equivalent to what would be provided by full-time paid staff. Well, as long as it's volunteers only, that expectation is not reasonable (IMHO).
Mark.
"level of performance".
No one at least in their right mind would expect a "volunteer" to equal the work through put of a paid employee...
For example..in The Church of Christ (where I worship) any fool can get into the pulpit and preach...and the other hand the preacher is expected to have three sermons a week ready to go...
But the volunteers need to have similar levels of competency in the tools being used as the Preacher or they should not be allowed into the pulpit in the first place.
It is like tower climbing...I dont do it as fastl as the folks who professionally climb the 1000 footer that our clubs machine is on...but for the team that does it to get on the tower...we had to meet a minimium level of competency and demonstrate that.
No matter how it is spun suitsat 1 was a failure.
Good engineering standards would dictate figuring out the weak links and then correcting them trying something that perhaps was a bit more "sophisticated" but not all that much more...if for no other reason to make sure that the methods that defeat the failure are well understood.
Instead what happened is that the "team" put together a project so complicated that they missed their free launch.
I dont care how good the engineering is to miss a free launch is bad management.
That reality seems to bite some folks
Robert WB5MZO
Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/171222985/direct/01/ _______________________________________________ Sent via [email protected]. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
I really want to reply in good faith. It is very difficult in light of the nature the tone of the way this thread is going. I am a member of AMSAT and proud of it. The organization is made up of volunteers.....Read Volunteers! Things will go wrong.. When we have problems we look for the weak points and focus on the corrections that can be made.
What I do not understand is the persistent bashing of the BOD or managers of this non profit volunteer corporation. We are not the Boeing, Lockheed or the USAF.
If something is not going your way contact a board member and deal directly with them. The way this thread is going it is accomplishing nothing more then degrading or demeaning the volunteer and contributing members of AMSAT. We have a lot of folks on this bb that have a lot of very good information to contribute to all. I just am really disappointed to see some very talented folks carry this thread to the point where it turns others off.
I do not expect a reply to this. I just wanted to express my opinion
Dale - KL7XJ
Message: 10 Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 20:17:45 -0500 From: Rocky Jones [email protected] Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Volunteered To: [email protected], Amsat BB [email protected] Message-ID: [email protected] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
What I do not understand is the persistent bashing of the BOD or managers of this non profit volunteer corporation. We are not the
Boeing, Lockheed or the USAF.
If something is not going your way contact a board member and deal directly with them.
The way this thread is going it is accomplishing nothing more then degrading or demeaning the volunteer and contributing members of AMSAT.
We have a lot of folks on this bb that have a lot of very good information to contribute to all. I just am really disappointed
to see some very talented folks carry this thread to the point where it turns others off.
I do not expect a reply to this. I just wanted to express my opinion
Dale - KL7XJ
Dale. Pointing out errors in performance that are consistent is not bashing...and it doesnt matter if they are volunteers or paid staff.
If they cannot deal with responsible criticism, and oddly enough no one has refuted the statement I made that 1) they missed a launch date and 2) in large measure because they bit off to large a project...
instead all one gets is "wow I am upset because you are pointing out flaws in my performance, I am a volunteer I work 16-18 hours a day and wow this is space".
No one is calling them stupid, indeed the only people who have blown their corks are those who dont have answers to reasonable questions.
Robert WB5MZO
Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/171222984/direct/01/
Message: 11 Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 02:12:41 +0000 From: Nigel Gunn G8IFF/W8IFF [email protected] Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Volunteered To: Amsat BB [email protected] Message-ID: [email protected] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
It amazes me that this group does not have an owner/moderator/ administrator to stop/delete/kill all this worthless bitching.
Rocky Jones wrote:
What I do not understand is the persistent bashing of the BOD or managers of this non profit volunteer corporation. We are not the
Message: 12 Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 22:15:17 -0400 From: Kevin Smith [email protected] Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Volunteered To: Nigel Gunn G8IFF/W8IFF [email protected] Cc: Amsat BB [email protected] Message-ID: [email protected] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; delsp=yes
Failing that can we at least stop feeding this troll.
Kevin Smith N3HKQ
On Sep 12, 2009, at 10:12 PM, Nigel Gunn G8IFF/W8IFF [email protected] wrote:
It amazes me that this group does not have an owner/moderator/ administrator to stop/delete/kill all this worthless bitching.
Rocky Jones wrote:
What I do not understand is the persistent bashing of the BOD or managers of this non profit volunteer corporation. We are not the
Sent via [email protected]. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Message: 13 Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 21:41:32 -0500 From: Rocky Jones [email protected] Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Volunteered To: [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected] Cc: [email protected], Amsat BB [email protected] Message-ID: [email protected] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
We have a free launch just as we have always have. The russians, as is their right when they have command, decided with all the equipment modeled people coming up to toss all orlan suits without notice to us (and they owed us nothing).
Bob. I am told by people at JSC that this is not an accurate statement.
Robert WB5MZO
Bing brings you health info from trusted sources. http://www.bing.com/search?q=pet+allergy&form=MHEINA&publ=WLHMTAG&am...
Message: 14 Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 11:19:04 +1000 From: "Andrew Rich" [email protected] Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Volunteered To: "Dale Hershberger" [email protected], "Rocky Jones" [email protected], "amsat bbs" [email protected] Cc: amsat bbs [email protected] Message-ID: 670D13D572204184BDA77DF2B146F0A0@home9e3111fa81 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original
http://php.opensourcecms.com/scripts/show.php?catid=all&cat=All%20Script...
CMS - kewl
Andrew Rich Airways Technical Officer Grade 4 Surveillance - RADAR ADS-B Amateur Radio Callsign VK4TEC email: [email protected] web: www.tech-software.net ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dale Hershberger" [email protected] To: "Rocky Jones" [email protected]; "amsat bbs" <[email protected] Cc: "amsat bbs" [email protected] Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2009 8:21 AM Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Volunteered
Rocky Jones wrote:
Noone is questioning whether the volunteers worked their butts off. What we're talking about is that the AMSAT community (at least some, anyway) have an expectation of performance equivalent to what would be provided by full-time paid staff. Well, as long as it's volunteers only, that expectation is not reasonable (IMHO).
Mark.
"level of performance".
No one at least in their right mind would expect a "volunteer" to equal the work through put of a paid employee...
For example..in The Church of Christ (where I worship) any fool can get into the pulpit and preach...and the other hand the preacher is expected to have three sermons a week ready to go...
But the volunteers need to have similar levels of competency in the tools being used as the Preacher or they should not be allowed into the pulpit in the first place.
It is like tower climbing...I dont do it as fastl as the folks who professionally climb the 1000 footer that our clubs machine is on...but for the team that does it to get on the tower...we had to meet a minimium level of competency and demonstrate that.
No matter how it is spun suitsat 1 was a failure.
Good engineering standards would dictate figuring out the weak links and then correcting them trying something that perhaps was a bit more "sophisticated" but not all that much more...if for no other reason to make sure that the methods that defeat the failure are well understood.
Instead what happened is that the "team" put together a project so complicated that they missed their free launch.
I dont care how good the engineering is to miss a free launch is bad management.
That reality seems to bite some folks
Robert WB5MZO
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I really want to reply in good faith. It is very difficult in light of the nature the tone of the way this thread is going. I am a member of AMSAT and proud of it. The organization is made up of volunteers.....Read Volunteers! Things will go wrong.. When we have problems we look for the weak points and focus on the corrections that can be made.
What I do not understand is the persistent bashing of the BOD or managers of this non profit volunteer corporation. We are not the Boeing, Lockheed or the USAF.
If something is not going your way contact a board member and deal directly with them. The way this thread is going it is accomplishing nothing more then degrading or demeaning the volunteer and contributing members of AMSAT. We have a lot of folks on this bb that have a lot of very good information to contribute to all. I just am really disappointed to see some very talented folks carry this thread to the point where it turns others off.
I do not expect a reply to this. I just wanted to express my opinion
Dale - KL7XJ _______________________________________________ Sent via [email protected]. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
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End of AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol 4, Issue 464
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Thanks Lou for your teams efforts suit sat 2 keep up the hard work
nick
-----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Louis McFadin Sent: Saturday, September 12, 2009 11:42 PM To: [email protected] Subject: [Bulk] [amsat-bb] Re: AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol 4, Issue 464
It pains me to have to spend any energy answering all these comments about the Suitsat-2 and AMSAT problems. Here are the facts: No flights were missed. The Russians and the ARISS team have been working very hard to put together Suitsat-2 in a timely manner so that we could catch a ride to ISS on a Progress mission. bb
I didn't send this directly to Lou but I had to note the following comments...(emphasis is mine)
"...because most of us don't take the time to toot our horn. "WE SHOULD" but that's the facts..."
"...So I suggest you use this BB for it's intended purpose as being a way to exchange information about satellite operations..."
The problem that is taking up so much space on this list IS COMMUNICATIONS. If someone "on the inside" spent a few minutes a week/month letting others know what was REALLY happening, all the "rumors" that are being thrown about would not have any basis.
In the time it would take to pass the info on to another "volunteer" to post, it could be posted to the List and done with. If Lou's statement of "status" was posted a month ago, the entire "controversy" would be moot.
Roger WA1KAT
----- Original Message ----- From: "Louis McFadin" [email protected] To: [email protected] Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2009 12:42 AM Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol 4, Issue 464
It pains me to have to spend any energy answering all these comments about the Suitsat-2 and AMSAT problems. Here are the facts: No flights were missed. The Russians and the ARISS team have been working very hard to put together Suitsat-2 in a timely manner so that we could catch a ride to ISS on a Progress mission. The Russians declared the suit excess quite a while ago. The ISS is getting more and more crowded since it is now crewed by six people. There is a real problem with clearance around all the equipment on ISS. It's to the point of becoming a safety hazard. Each side has a finite amount of volume allocated. The suits were seen as a safety hazard because of this crowdedness. There wasn't a case of no one being notified. We all knew there was a space problem. It simply came down to a priority situation. Do you throw away something that you need to keep and have spent an enormous amount of money getting to ISS, or something that is very low on the priority? It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out where Suitsat fell on that list. In actuality this may have been a very good thing. We were having a very difficult time trying to figure out how to properly attach the solar panels to the suit so that they could properly power the electronics. Now we will take the solar panels and form a satellite enclosure around the electronics planned for Suitsat 2 and call it ARISSat-1.
We have been working very hard on designing this new configuration and are making excellent progress due to some very hard working volunteers both here in the U.S. and in Russia. I am sure the amount of work that is going on will never be realized by most on this BB but it is tremendous. What you hear about is only the tip of the iceberg. Not because its a secret but because most of us don't take the time to toot our horn. We should but thats the facts.
The team has not had time to listen to this series of comments on the BB because we are all dedicated to getting the project done in as fast and reliable a way as we can. I can tell you this is a very dedicated team and all are working hard and doing their best to finish their tasks while keeping their jobs and sanity. If you want names and more information come to the AMSAT symposium and meet some of them.
The Russians send up Progress resupply missions to ISS regularly so there will be other chances to send up the new ARISSat-1 satellite. There are at least four Russian EVAs planned for next year so there will be other chances to deploy ARISSat-1 so not to fret. The most important thing is to take the proper time to make sure it is done right so it will work properly and safely.
So those of you who have actual questions about the facts can send me or Gould Smith a private e-mail and I will try to answer you with facts. If you want to complain and not help, please don't send them to me or the team. We are too busy trying our best to make it happen just like we have been doing for many years on AMSAT, SAREX and ARISS projects. If you really do want to help, send me or any of the BOD a resume and tell us how you can help.
So I suggest you use this BB for it's intended purpose as being a way to exchange information about satellite operations. Don't use it as a way to pump your ego or to trash others.
Let's don't loose sight of the true objectives here. Let's have fun and leave a legacy for those coming after us that we will all be proud of. My grandson just got his Ham license that makes me very proud!
Lou McFadin W5DID AMSAT BOD ARISS US Hardware manager
On Sep 12, 2009, at 11:10 PM, [email protected] wrote:
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Today's Topics:
- Re: Volunteered (Mark Lunday)
- FN51 operations (Dave Webb KB1PVH)
- AO-51 update 12 Sept 2009 (Mark L. Hammond)
- Re: (Reporting web pages needing updates) (John P. Toscano)
- Re: AO-51 update 12 Sept 2009 (Andrew Rich)
- Re: Volunteered (Bill Ress)
- Re: Volunteered (Rocky Jones)
- Re: Volunteered ([email protected])
- Re: Volunteered (Dale Hershberger)
- Re: Volunteered (Rocky Jones)
- Re: Volunteered (Nigel Gunn G8IFF/W8IFF)
- Re: Volunteered (Kevin Smith)
- Re: Volunteered (Rocky Jones)
- Re: Volunteered (Andrew Rich)
Message: 1 Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 16:50:30 -0400 From: "Mark Lunday" [email protected] Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Volunteered To: "'Rocky Jones'" [email protected], [email protected], [email protected] Cc: [email protected], 'Amsat BB' [email protected] Message-ID: [email protected] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Chiming in, after watching this go back and forth and feeling frustrated here.
The issue here is about holding volunteers accountable as if they were paid staff. It's about expectations as well.
Noone is questioning whether the volunteers worked their butts off. What we're talking about is that the AMSAT community (at least some, anyway) have an expectation of performance equivalent to what would be provided by full-time paid staff. Well, as long as it's volunteers only, that expectation is not reasonable (IMHO). None of the volunteers can provide that kind of support day-in and day-out. Holding volunteers to that standard is, in my opinion, a mistake.
Having said that, what AMSAT volunteers have accomplished is SO FAR ABOVE what a normal volunteer organization achieves, that it BOGGLES THE MIND. I have been an AMSAT member for 18 months and active on satellites for about as long. To see what has been achieved by volunteers, spanning across geography, is AMAZING. The ability to ask ANY question about satellites in general and AMSAT in particular on this BB, and get an accurate response in a timely fashion is impressive. The collective intellectual capital and horsepower is deep and very valuable.
And THAT'S the issue! We're so accustomed to outstanding performance on so many things with AMSAT that we start *expecting* above and beyond in all cases. That's not always realistic.
I had a few 1:1 threads with some folks about this over the past few days, and I think we could address some of the problems if we had a paid position or two. I understand that this is being presented to the ARRL in the near future (additional funding support)
Another side note: it sounds like more communication/interaction would help clarify some of these questions and concerns. Regular status reporting on progress for specific projects would help the community understand: (1) the progress (2) the risks (3) the level of effort provided by the volunteers (4) opportunities for additional input for addressing problems (leveraging some of that powerful intellectual capital and horsepower in our community).
Meanwhile, as a project manager w/ PMP cert, Electrical Engineer, and a 35 year ham with military background, I am raising my hand as a volunteer for helping with the planning of future AMSAT projects
Mark Lunday WD4ELG Hillsborough, NC - FM06kb [email protected] http://wd4elg.net http://wd4elg.blogspot.com
Message: 2 Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 21:18:07 +0000 From: "Dave Webb KB1PVH" [email protected] Subject: [amsat-bb] FN51 operations To: "AMSAT BB" [email protected] Message-ID: <1853931992-1252790287- cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-401973086- @bda400.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
Content-Type: text/plain
Hello all,
I have arrived at FN51 on Cape Cod. Unfortunately, it is raining, thundering, and a bit of lightning. I think it is best to hold off for a bit from waving my lightning rod at the sky. If things clear up a bit, I will give it a shot. The weather is supposed to be better tomorrow.
73,
Dave KB1PVH
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
Message: 3 Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 17:27:15 -0400 From: "Mark L. Hammond" [email protected] Subject: [amsat-bb] AO-51 update 12 Sept 2009 To: [email protected] Message-ID: [email protected] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Reloading of the satellite continues.
From the front page of the AMSAT web page:
AO-51 is off the air while the software reload is in progress. We hope to have it operational by the first of the week.
AO-51 Command team
73,
Mark L. Hammond [N8MH]
Message: 4 Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 16:46:06 -0500 From: "John P. Toscano" [email protected] Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: (Reporting web pages needing updates) Cc: "'Amsat BB'" [email protected] Message-ID: [email protected] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Andrew Rich (Home) wrote:
No I meant
" I found this page is old and needs to be deleted"
Many hands make light work
Andrew: I think that the following solution will help you accomplish your goal...
At the bottom of many pages of the AMSAT web site is a link entitled: "Report a bug on this page"
Click on the link, and a form pops up. The form is pre-filled with the URL of the "offending" web page, i.e. the web page you were on at the time you clicked on the link. Fill in the rest of the form and click on the button labeled: Submit Report
One of the questions on the form is "Issue Type", and the drop-down list include numerous choices, such as: -- malformed text -- broken link -- outdated information -- misspelling -- punctuation and several others. You don't even have to start up your email client; the form goes to the appropriate person when you click on the Submit button.
If the page with a problem does not have one of these links on it, you could manually type in the following URL into your browser: http://www.amsat.org/amsat-new/bugform.php
The only problem with this is you will have to manually fill in the line on the form that specifies what web page is problematic. Of course, before you change to this URL, use your mouse to highlight the current URL (where the problem is located), hit Ctrl+C to copy the URL to the Windows Clipboard, then go to the bugform page, mouse or tab to that field, and hit Ctrl+V to paste in the URL. [My apologies in advance for giving you Windows-centric instructions if you are using a different OS family.]
This seems even easier to me than an email alias to which you send problem reports, but maybe that's just me...
But I clearly agree, a thousand pairs of eyes can find more errors and omissions than a single pair of eyes. www.nlrs.org (which I maintain) is comprised of over 4000 files, so I assume that www.amsat.org is much bigger!
73 de W0JT
Message: 5 Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 07:51:59 +1000 From: "Andrew Rich" [email protected] Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: AO-51 update 12 Sept 2009 To: [email protected], "Mark L. Hammond" [email protected] Message-ID: 1E3E3D647EFE4E4E899F5249C789AC3B@home9e3111fa81 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original
Vista probs huh
Andrew Rich Airways Technical Officer Grade 4 Surveillance - RADAR ADS-B Amateur Radio Callsign VK4TEC email: [email protected] web: www.tech-software.net ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark L. Hammond" [email protected] To: [email protected] Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2009 7:27 AM Subject: [amsat-bb] AO-51 update 12 Sept 2009
Reloading of the satellite continues.
From the front page of the AMSAT web page:
AO-51 is off the air while the software reload is in progress. We hope to have it operational by the first of the week.
AO-51 Command team
73,
Mark L. Hammond [N8MH] _______________________________________________ Sent via [email protected]. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
------
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Message: 6 Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 15:06:49 -0700 From: Bill Ress [email protected] Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Volunteered To: Mark Lunday [email protected] Cc: [email protected], 'Amsat BB' [email protected] Message-ID: [email protected] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Hi Mark,
Thanks for your comments and your offer to volunteer.
Why don't you contact me off line and we can talk about your specific interests.
Regards...Bill - N6GHz
Mark Lunday wrote:
Chiming in, after watching this go back and forth and feeling frustrated here.
The issue here is about holding volunteers accountable as if they were paid staff. It's about expectations as well.
Noone is questioning whether the volunteers worked their butts off. What we're talking about is that the AMSAT community (at least some, anyway) have an expectation of performance equivalent to what would be provided by full-time paid staff. Well, as long as it's volunteers only, that expectation is not reasonable (IMHO). None of the volunteers can provide that kind of support day-in and day-out. Holding volunteers to that standard is, in my opinion, a mistake.
Having said that, what AMSAT volunteers have accomplished is SO FAR ABOVE what a normal volunteer organization achieves, that it BOGGLES THE MIND. I have been an AMSAT member for 18 months and active on satellites for about as long. To see what has been achieved by volunteers, spanning across geography, is AMAZING. The ability to ask ANY question about satellites in general and AMSAT in particular on this BB, and get an accurate response in a timely fashion is impressive. The collective intellectual capital and horsepower is deep and very valuable.
And THAT'S the issue! We're so accustomed to outstanding performance on so many things with AMSAT that we start *expecting* above and beyond in all cases. That's not always realistic.
I had a few 1:1 threads with some folks about this over the past few days, and I think we could address some of the problems if we had a paid position or two. I understand that this is being presented to the ARRL in the near future (additional funding support)
Another side note: it sounds like more communication/interaction would help clarify some of these questions and concerns. Regular status reporting on progress for specific projects would help the community understand: (1) the progress (2) the risks (3) the level of effort provided by the volunteers (4) opportunities for additional input for addressing problems (leveraging some of that powerful intellectual capital and horsepower in our community).
Meanwhile, as a project manager w/ PMP cert, Electrical Engineer, and a 35 year ham with military background, I am raising my hand as a volunteer for helping with the planning of future AMSAT projects
Mark Lunday WD4ELG Hillsborough, NC - FM06kb [email protected] http://wd4elg.net http://wd4elg.blogspot.com
Message: 7 Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 17:09:47 -0500 From: Rocky Jones [email protected] Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Volunteered To: [email protected], [email protected], [email protected] Cc: [email protected], Amsat BB [email protected] Message-ID: [email protected] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Noone is questioning whether the volunteers worked their butts off. What we're talking about is that the AMSAT community (at least some, anyway) have an expectation of performance equivalent to what would be provided by full-time paid staff. Well, as long as it's volunteers only, that expectation is not reasonable (IMHO).
Mark.
"level of performance".
No one at least in their right mind would expect a "volunteer" to equal the work through put of a paid employee...
For example..in The Church of Christ (where I worship) any fool can get into the pulpit and preach...and the other hand the preacher is expected to have three sermons a week ready to go...
But the volunteers need to have similar levels of competency in the tools being used as the Preacher or they should not be allowed into the pulpit in the first place.
It is like tower climbing...I dont do it as fastl as the folks who professionally climb the 1000 footer that our clubs machine is on...but for the team that does it to get on the tower...we had to meet a minimium level of competency and demonstrate that.
No matter how it is spun suitsat 1 was a failure.
Good engineering standards would dictate figuring out the weak links and then correcting them trying something that perhaps was a bit more "sophisticated" but not all that much more...if for no other reason to make sure that the methods that defeat the failure are well understood.
Instead what happened is that the "team" put together a project so complicated that they missed their free launch.
I dont care how good the engineering is to miss a free launch is bad management.
That reality seems to bite some folks
Robert WB5MZO
Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/171222985/direct/01/
Message: 8 Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 23:05:07 +0000 From: [email protected] Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Volunteered To: "Rocky Jones" [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], "Bill Ress" [email protected] Cc: [email protected], amsat bb [email protected] Message-ID: <1167601682-1252796952- cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1812505125- @bda357.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
Content-Type: text/plain
This is unadulterated bull shit made from whole cloth.
We have a free launch just as we have always have. The russians, as is their right when they have command, decided with all the equipment modeled people coming up to toss all orlan suits without notice to us (and they owed us nothing).
I would be the very last person to say AMSAT is above all criticism but you are clearly nor the spokesperson needed for the critics. Your notes are those of a person who wants to fiddle while he burns Rome. What is needed in my not so humble opinion is a spokesperson for the critics who is not perceived as full of animus.
Bob N4HY LM
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
-----Original Message----- From: Rocky Jones [email protected]
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 17:09:47 To: [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected] Cc: [email protected]; Amsat BB[email protected] Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Volunteered
Noone is questioning whether the volunteers worked their butts off. What we're talking about is that the AMSAT community (at least some, anyway) have an expectation of performance equivalent to what would be provided by full-time paid staff. Well, as long as it's volunteers only, that expectation is not reasonable (IMHO).
Mark.
"level of performance".
No one at least in their right mind would expect a "volunteer" to equal the work through put of a paid employee...
For example..in The Church of Christ (where I worship) any fool can get into the pulpit and preach...and the other hand the preacher is expected to have three sermons a week ready to go...
But the volunteers need to have similar levels of competency in the tools being used as the Preacher or they should not be allowed into the pulpit in the first place.
It is like tower climbing...I dont do it as fastl as the folks who professionally climb the 1000 footer that our clubs machine is on...but for the team that does it to get on the tower...we had to meet a minimium level of competency and demonstrate that.
No matter how it is spun suitsat 1 was a failure.
Good engineering standards would dictate figuring out the weak links and then correcting them trying something that perhaps was a bit more "sophisticated" but not all that much more...if for no other reason to make sure that the methods that defeat the failure are well understood.
Instead what happened is that the "team" put together a project so complicated that they missed their free launch.
I dont care how good the engineering is to miss a free launch is bad management.
That reality seems to bite some folks
Robert WB5MZO
Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/171222985/direct/01/ _______________________________________________ Sent via [email protected]. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Message: 9 Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 15:21:43 -0700 From: Dale Hershberger [email protected] Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Volunteered To: Rocky Jones [email protected], amsat bbs [email protected] Cc: amsat bbs [email protected] Message-ID: [email protected] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Rocky Jones wrote:
Noone is questioning whether the volunteers worked their butts off. What we're talking about is that the AMSAT community (at least some, anyway) have an expectation of performance equivalent to what would be provided by full-time paid staff. Well, as long as it's volunteers only, that expectation is not reasonable (IMHO).
Mark.
"level of performance".
No one at least in their right mind would expect a "volunteer" to equal the work through put of a paid employee...
For example..in The Church of Christ (where I worship) any fool can get into the pulpit and preach...and the other hand the preacher is expected to have three sermons a week ready to go...
But the volunteers need to have similar levels of competency in the tools being used as the Preacher or they should not be allowed into the pulpit in the first place.
It is like tower climbing...I dont do it as fastl as the folks who professionally climb the 1000 footer that our clubs machine is on...but for the team that does it to get on the tower...we had to meet a minimium level of competency and demonstrate that.
No matter how it is spun suitsat 1 was a failure.
Good engineering standards would dictate figuring out the weak links and then correcting them trying something that perhaps was a bit more "sophisticated" but not all that much more...if for no other reason to make sure that the methods that defeat the failure are well understood.
Instead what happened is that the "team" put together a project so complicated that they missed their free launch.
I dont care how good the engineering is to miss a free launch is bad management.
That reality seems to bite some folks
Robert WB5MZO
Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/171222985/direct/01/ _______________________________________________ Sent via [email protected]. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
I really want to reply in good faith. It is very difficult in light of the nature the tone of the way this thread is going. I am a member of AMSAT and proud of it. The organization is made up of volunteers.....Read Volunteers! Things will go wrong.. When we have problems we look for the weak points and focus on the corrections that can be made.
What I do not understand is the persistent bashing of the BOD or managers of this non profit volunteer corporation. We are not the Boeing, Lockheed or the USAF.
If something is not going your way contact a board member and deal directly with them. The way this thread is going it is accomplishing nothing more then degrading or demeaning the volunteer and contributing members of AMSAT. We have a lot of folks on this bb that have a lot of very good information to contribute to all. I just am really disappointed to see some very talented folks carry this thread to the point where it turns others off.
I do not expect a reply to this. I just wanted to express my opinion
Dale - KL7XJ
Message: 10 Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 20:17:45 -0500 From: Rocky Jones [email protected] Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Volunteered To: [email protected], Amsat BB [email protected] Message-ID: [email protected] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
What I do not understand is the persistent bashing of the BOD or managers of this non profit volunteer corporation. We are not the
Boeing, Lockheed or the USAF.
If something is not going your way contact a board member and deal directly with them.
The way this thread is going it is accomplishing nothing more then degrading or demeaning the volunteer and contributing members of AMSAT.
We have a lot of folks on this bb that have a lot of very good information to contribute to all. I just am really disappointed
to see some very talented folks carry this thread to the point where it turns others off.
I do not expect a reply to this. I just wanted to express my opinion
Dale - KL7XJ
Dale. Pointing out errors in performance that are consistent is not bashing...and it doesnt matter if they are volunteers or paid staff.
If they cannot deal with responsible criticism, and oddly enough no one has refuted the statement I made that 1) they missed a launch date and 2) in large measure because they bit off to large a project...
instead all one gets is "wow I am upset because you are pointing out flaws in my performance, I am a volunteer I work 16-18 hours a day and wow this is space".
No one is calling them stupid, indeed the only people who have blown their corks are those who dont have answers to reasonable questions.
Robert WB5MZO
Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/171222984/direct/01/
Message: 11 Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 02:12:41 +0000 From: Nigel Gunn G8IFF/W8IFF [email protected] Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Volunteered To: Amsat BB [email protected] Message-ID: [email protected] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
It amazes me that this group does not have an owner/moderator/ administrator to stop/delete/kill all this worthless bitching.
Rocky Jones wrote:
What I do not understand is the persistent bashing of the BOD or managers of this non profit volunteer corporation. We are not the
Message: 12 Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 22:15:17 -0400 From: Kevin Smith [email protected] Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Volunteered To: Nigel Gunn G8IFF/W8IFF [email protected] Cc: Amsat BB [email protected] Message-ID: [email protected] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; delsp=yes
Failing that can we at least stop feeding this troll.
Kevin Smith N3HKQ
On Sep 12, 2009, at 10:12 PM, Nigel Gunn G8IFF/W8IFF [email protected] wrote:
It amazes me that this group does not have an owner/moderator/ administrator to stop/delete/kill all this worthless bitching.
Rocky Jones wrote:
What I do not understand is the persistent bashing of the BOD or managers of this non profit volunteer corporation. We are not the
Sent via [email protected]. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Message: 13 Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 21:41:32 -0500 From: Rocky Jones [email protected] Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Volunteered To: [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected] Cc: [email protected], Amsat BB [email protected] Message-ID: [email protected] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
We have a free launch just as we have always have. The russians, as is their right when they have command, decided with all the equipment modeled people coming up to toss all orlan suits without notice to us (and they owed us nothing).
Bob. I am told by people at JSC that this is not an accurate statement.
Robert WB5MZO
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Message: 14 Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 11:19:04 +1000 From: "Andrew Rich" [email protected] Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Volunteered To: "Dale Hershberger" [email protected], "Rocky Jones" [email protected], "amsat bbs" [email protected] Cc: amsat bbs [email protected] Message-ID: 670D13D572204184BDA77DF2B146F0A0@home9e3111fa81 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original
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Andrew Rich Airways Technical Officer Grade 4 Surveillance - RADAR ADS-B Amateur Radio Callsign VK4TEC email: [email protected] web: www.tech-software.net ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dale Hershberger" [email protected] To: "Rocky Jones" [email protected]; "amsat bbs"
Cc: "amsat bbs" [email protected] Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2009 8:21 AM Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Volunteered
Rocky Jones wrote:
Noone is questioning whether the volunteers worked their butts off. What we're talking about is that the AMSAT community (at least some, anyway) have an expectation of performance equivalent to what would be provided by full-time paid staff. Well, as long as it's volunteers only, that expectation is not reasonable (IMHO).
Mark.
"level of performance".
No one at least in their right mind would expect a "volunteer" to equal the work through put of a paid employee...
For example..in The Church of Christ (where I worship) any fool can get into the pulpit and preach...and the other hand the preacher is expected to have three sermons a week ready to go...
But the volunteers need to have similar levels of competency in the tools being used as the Preacher or they should not be allowed into the pulpit in the first place.
It is like tower climbing...I dont do it as fastl as the folks who professionally climb the 1000 footer that our clubs machine is on...but for the team that does it to get on the tower...we had to meet a minimium level of competency and demonstrate that.
No matter how it is spun suitsat 1 was a failure.
Good engineering standards would dictate figuring out the weak links and then correcting them trying something that perhaps was a bit more "sophisticated" but not all that much more...if for no other reason to make sure that the methods that defeat the failure are well understood.
Instead what happened is that the "team" put together a project so complicated that they missed their free launch.
I dont care how good the engineering is to miss a free launch is bad management.
That reality seems to bite some folks
Robert WB5MZO
Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/171222985/direct/01/ _______________________________________________ Sent via [email protected]. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
I really want to reply in good faith. It is very difficult in light of the nature the tone of the way this thread is going. I am a member of AMSAT and proud of it. The organization is made up of volunteers.....Read Volunteers! Things will go wrong.. When we have problems we look for the weak points and focus on the corrections that can be made.
What I do not understand is the persistent bashing of the BOD or managers of this non profit volunteer corporation. We are not the Boeing, Lockheed or the USAF.
If something is not going your way contact a board member and deal directly with them. The way this thread is going it is accomplishing nothing more then degrading or demeaning the volunteer and contributing members of AMSAT. We have a lot of folks on this bb that have a lot of very good information to contribute to all. I just am really disappointed to see some very talented folks carry this thread to the point where it turns others off.
I do not expect a reply to this. I just wanted to express my opinion
Dale - KL7XJ _______________________________________________ Sent via [email protected]. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
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Sent via [email protected]. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
End of AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol 4, Issue 464
Sent via [email protected]. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Amsat already has a weekly e-mail News Bulletin and a weekly Satellite Status bulletin, one of which should contain what you need.
If you're not on the e-mail list for these, you need to subscribe.
Roger Kolakowski wrote:
If someone "on the inside" spent a few minutes a week/month letting others know what was REALLY happening, all the "rumors" that are being thrown about would not have any basis.
Then I stand corrected...two weeks worth of BS has been thrown around because some people are unable to read...
Roger WA1KAT
----- Original Message ----- From: "Nigel Gunn G8IFF/W8IFF" [email protected] To: "Roger Kolakowski" [email protected] Cc: [email protected] Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2009 10:14 AM Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Re: AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol 4, Issue 464
Amsat already has a weekly e-mail News Bulletin and a weekly Satellite
Status bulletin, one of which should contain what
you need.
If you're not on the e-mail list for these, you need to subscribe.
Roger Kolakowski wrote:
If someone "on the inside" spent a few minutes a week/month letting
others
know what was REALLY happening, all the "rumors" that are being thrown
about
would not have any basis.
Lou. see how it works out. We will know pretty quick how this is going to go.
Then we can revisit this.
good luck
Robert WB5MZO
_________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/171222986/direct/01/
participants (6)
-
Bill Ress -
Louis McFadin -
Nick Pugh K5QXJ -
Nigel Gunn G8IFF/W8IFF -
Rocky Jones -
Roger Kolakowski