ARDC awarded ORI $500,000 to do major development on the phase 4 ground digital communications terminal. ORI has assembled a tremendous engineering team to do this work.
Congratulations to ORI. I was informed the check is in the mail. This is the largest grant ARDC has given to date. ORI was previously awarded large grants by the ARRL foundation and the Yasme foundation to support the work.
73s Bob N4HY
This is just part of a complete plan to provide for the space and ground needs of amateur radio. Thus, you can expect to see additional grants on this scale. ORI remains an AMSAT-Affiliated organization, and the participation of AMSAT and its members is always welcome.
Thanks
Bruce
On Thu, Sep 10, 2020, 4:04 PM Robert McGwier rwmcgwier@gmail.com wrote:
ARDC awarded ORI $500,000 to do major development on the phase 4 ground digital communications terminal. ORI has assembled a tremendous engineering team to do this work.
Congratulations to ORI. I was informed the check is in the mail. This is the largest grant ARDC has given to date. ORI was previously awarded large grants by the ARRL foundation and the Yasme foundation to support the work.
73s Bob N4HY
Bruce,
Wowzers! That's a pile of money and it's kind of difficult for me to piece this together... but, whenever such a large amount of $ is involved, I always like to trace it. I'm digging through all this trying to figure out where the heck ARDC could come up with a metric (or english) pile of money like that to distribute in a grant and so-far, i've determined:
1) IANA designated 44/8 for "AMPRNET Amature Radio Experiment Net", back in the day... ref: https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc790
2) Via some legal (questionable?) wizardry, ARDC was able to stake a claim to 100% of 44/8, and sell off IPs that were designated for Amateur Radio Experiment Net ref: https://www.ampr.org/wp-content/uploads/Courtesy-Notice-to-AG-Signed-ARDC.pd...
3) Robert McGwier (N4HY) is on the "2020 Grants Advisory Committee" for ARDC: ref: https://www.ampr.org/giving/
4) And he's also involved with ORI: ref: https://openresearch.institute/public/mailing-lists/ground-station/ground-st...
5) ORI ends up with a massive grant!
I do admit.... this is incredible work! I have a few questions about RFC790 and the ownership of those IPs. Can you explain to everyone on the -bb, how the living heck ARDC had the legal right to ownership to all of those IPs.
One thing is quite obvious from all of this... Namely, I need to quit my job and come work with you all of you!
Joseph Armbruster KJ4JIO
On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 8:41 PM Bruce Perens via AMSAT-BB < amsat-bb@amsat.org> wrote:
This is just part of a complete plan to provide for the space and ground needs of amateur radio. Thus, you can expect to see additional grants on this scale. ORI remains an AMSAT-Affiliated organization, and the participation of AMSAT and its members is always welcome.
Thanks BruceOn Thu, Sep 10, 2020, 4:04 PM Robert McGwier rwmcgwier@gmail.com wrote:
ARDC awarded ORI $500,000 to do major development on the phase 4 ground digital communications terminal. ORI has assembled a tremendous
engineering
team to do this work.
Congratulations to ORI. I was informed the check is in the mail. This is the largest grant ARDC has given to date. ORI was previously awarded
large
grants by the ARRL foundation and the Yasme foundation to support the
work.
73s Bob N4HY
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 6:13 PM Joseph Armbruster < josepharmbruster@gmail.com> wrote:
One thing is quite obvious from all of this... Namely, I need to quit my job and come work with you all of you!
It's a volunteer project, and you are welcome to help, as are all AMSAT members and all Radio Amateurs,* regardless of where they live. *Because of that ITAR stuff we worked out.
All but one of the present ARDC board of directors that I know of are AMSAT members of very high stature and long standing. Bob McGwier who was AMSAT CTO and board member. Phil Karn has done a lot of the digital innovation of AMSAT and we recently saw his work on a radio buoy, Bdale Garbee did a lot of work on P3D, including a GPS that was meant to operate above the GPS constellation. Brian Kantor recently passed away, and deserves a lot of the thanks for all of this, and I don't know if he was a satellite op, but he was definitely a digital ham.
Long, long ago, Brian and Phil Karn and others of the digital amateur radio pioneers set up an IP network for Amateur Radio. Because nobody took the Internet seriously, we were granted a class-A network for Amateur Radio, with 16,777,216 addresses just in our part. This was "net 44", because the addresses were of the form 44.0.0.0 . It was also called AMPR.org for the DNS system. I operated a station in this network using the KA9Q software and a Kantronics TNC.
In the present time, people have grown to take the Internet a lot more seriously, and the world ran out of IPV4 addresses in their 32-bit space. We now have IPV6, which has a much larger address space, but IPV4 is still important. So, Brian and friends sold 3/4 of our addresses to Amazon for a lot of money, and formed a non-profit to manage it. We still have more than enough IPV4 addresses for ham radio, and the fact is that most new work would be on IPV6. Entertainingly, my Amazon Lightsail server is on net 44 now.
Thanks
Bruce
On 9/10/20 19:40, Bruce Perens via AMSAT-BB wrote:
In the present time, people have grown to take the Internet a lot more seriously, and the world ran out of IPV4 addresses in their 32-bit space. We now have IPV6, which has a much larger address space, but IPV4 is still important. So, Brian and friends sold 3/4 of our addresses to Amazon for a lot of money, and formed a non-profit to manage it.
Correction: ARDC sold 1/4 (not 3/4) of its original IPv4 address block, 44.0.0.0/8. The part that was sold is 44.192.0.0/10, i.e., the top quarter, which had never been used on the "real" Internet though it had been used internally in some European ampr subnets.
ampr.org still has the bottom 3/4 of its original assignment: 44.0.0.0/9 and 44.128.0.0/10. Hams running IP are still able to use these two blocks.
The 44.0.0.0/8 block was originally obtained by Hank Magnuski, KA6M, in the early 1980s, literally for the cost of a phone call. It did not see much use until the mid 1980s when I began work on my KA9Q NOS TCP/IP package; at that time, Hank transferred control of the 44 block to me. Brian Kantor WB6CYT and Wally Lindstruth WA6JPR soon joined in its management, with Brian running much of the infrastructure out of the University of California San Diego (UCSD) where he spent his entire career.
NONE of us had any idea whatsoever that these numbers would someday have serious monetary value. We did amprnet simply because we really believed in the potential of the Internet and, as hams, felt ham radio was the perfect place to experiment with the Internet protocols. (Some of you have fond memories of those days, as do I.) We thought it was a cool idea that would find good uses, but we had no idea that the Internet over radio would change the world as much as it did. It certainly changed my life; in 1991 I moved from New Jersey to San Diego to accept a position with Qualcomm largely on the basis of my work with TCP/IP over ham radio, and Brian and I became very close friends.
In the early 2010s, Brian obtained Hank's and my consent to transfer formal ownership of this address block to a nonprofit he created for the purpose: Amateur Radio Digital Communications, or ARDC. (Wally Lindstruth had passed away by this time). In 2018 and 2019, with full knowledge and consent of the ARDC board, Brian negotiated the sale of the 44.192.0.0/10 block with the proceeds to ARDC to be used for a wide range of charitable grants to benefit ham radio, the Internet, and especially the intersection of the two and their role in STEM education. Unfortunately, the nature of the IP address market and the size of the sale necessitated secrecy, which none of us liked. A nondisclosure agreement still limits what we can publicly say about the terms of the sale, though some facts can be readily determined from public sources such as the "whois" database and IP address market data.
Brian passed away unexpectedly in November 2019 and I've taken over as president and chair of ARDC. Hank continues to serve on the grant review committee chaired by John Hays, K7VE.
Since ARDC is an IRS 501(c)(3) nonprofit foundation, it is required to file detailed tax returns (990 forms) with the IRS; this will happen very shortly. By law, nonprofit tax returns are publicly available.
Phil Karn, KA9Q
ARDC President & Chair
Phil,
This is one heckuva story! And, you filled in several of the gaps that I was unable to dig up online, at least in a few minutes of pointing/clicking/clacking. I did notice the 2019 tax forms were unavailable, can't wait to diff 2018 2019 (the addition of 0's will be magical). I had a hard time sleeping last night thinking about how one little phone call back in 1980 could result in all this.
So Hank transferred the block of IPs to you, individually? Was that the kind of thing where you were all working on a campus together and it was all word-of-mouth or was it a more formal act on paper? In 2010 though, why did Brian need to ask Hank at all? I mean at that point, they were your individual property. I'm surprised whatever university you were attending did not try to stake a claim to them. Was there any paper trail regarding the ownership / transfer between the original 1980 phone call request and ARDC's inheritance?
This is one of the most amazing stories and biggest mind-blowers I have encountered in amateur radio history. Has anyone written an article / short story about this? If-not, someone needs to etch this one into the books, it's quite incredible.
Joseph Armbruster KJ4JIO
On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 1:46 AM Phil Karn via AMSAT-BB amsat-bb@amsat.org wrote:
On 9/10/20 19:40, Bruce Perens via AMSAT-BB wrote:
In the present time, people have grown to take the Internet a lot more seriously, and the world ran out of IPV4 addresses in their 32-bit space. We now have IPV6, which has a much larger address space, but IPV4 is
still
important. So, Brian and friends sold 3/4 of our addresses to Amazon for
a
lot of money, and formed a non-profit to manage it.
Correction: ARDC sold 1/4 (not 3/4) of its original IPv4 address block, 44.0.0.0/8. The part that was sold is 44.192.0.0/10, i.e., the top quarter, which had never been used on the "real" Internet though it had been used internally in some European ampr subnets.
ampr.org still has the bottom 3/4 of its original assignment: 44.0.0.0/9 and 44.128.0.0/10. Hams running IP are still able to use these two blocks.
The 44.0.0.0/8 block was originally obtained by Hank Magnuski, KA6M, in the early 1980s, literally for the cost of a phone call. It did not see much use until the mid 1980s when I began work on my KA9Q NOS TCP/IP package; at that time, Hank transferred control of the 44 block to me. Brian Kantor WB6CYT and Wally Lindstruth WA6JPR soon joined in its management, with Brian running much of the infrastructure out of the University of California San Diego (UCSD) where he spent his entire career.
NONE of us had any idea whatsoever that these numbers would someday have serious monetary value. We did amprnet simply because we really believed in the potential of the Internet and, as hams, felt ham radio was the perfect place to experiment with the Internet protocols. (Some of you have fond memories of those days, as do I.) We thought it was a cool idea that would find good uses, but we had no idea that the Internet over radio would change the world as much as it did. It certainly changed my life; in 1991 I moved from New Jersey to San Diego to accept a position with Qualcomm largely on the basis of my work with TCP/IP over ham radio, and Brian and I became very close friends.
In the early 2010s, Brian obtained Hank's and my consent to transfer formal ownership of this address block to a nonprofit he created for the purpose: Amateur Radio Digital Communications, or ARDC. (Wally Lindstruth had passed away by this time). In 2018 and 2019, with full knowledge and consent of the ARDC board, Brian negotiated the sale of the 44.192.0.0/10 block with the proceeds to ARDC to be used for a wide range of charitable grants to benefit ham radio, the Internet, and especially the intersection of the two and their role in STEM education. Unfortunately, the nature of the IP address market and the size of the sale necessitated secrecy, which none of us liked. A nondisclosure agreement still limits what we can publicly say about the terms of the sale, though some facts can be readily determined from public sources such as the "whois" database and IP address market data.
Brian passed away unexpectedly in November 2019 and I've taken over as president and chair of ARDC. Hank continues to serve on the grant review committee chaired by John Hays, K7VE.
Since ARDC is an IRS 501(c)(3) nonprofit foundation, it is required to file detailed tax returns (990 forms) with the IRS; this will happen very shortly. By law, nonprofit tax returns are publicly available.
Phil Karn, KA9Q
ARDC President & Chair
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
On 9/11/20 03:43, Joseph Armbruster wrote:
So Hank transferred the block of IPs to you, individually? Was that the kind of thing where you were all working on a campus together and it was all word-of-mouth or was it a more formal act on paper? In 2010 though, why did Brian need to ask Hank at all? I mean at that point, they were your individual property. I'm surprised whatever university you were attending did not try to stake a claim to them. Was there any paper trail regarding the ownership / transfer between the original 1980 phone call request and ARDC's inheritance?
IP addresses were registered somewhat informally in the early days when the Internet was a research project and address blocks were free, but they were regularly published in various Internet documents like RFCs (Requests for Comments). When the Internet grew up, more formal entities like ARIN (American Registry for Internet Numbers) and ICANN (Internet Corporation for Assigned Names and Numbers), among others, were created to register who owned what and to make those databases publicly available. At various times, Hank, Brian and I were on all these lists next to network 44, making us each at various times the legal owners.
I haven't been a student anywhere since I graduated from CMU with my MSEE in 1979.
Since control had been passed informally between us over the years according to whoever was then most willing to do the work, when IPv4 addresses began to get scarce we got concerned that someone might try to grab them from us hams. So Brian proposed to create the nonprofit ARDC to legally own network 44. Since Hank's name and mine had also been associated with 44 at various times, Brian thought it important to make sure all of us were OK with it. I for one never thought twice about it. In fact, when it later dawned on us just *how* much this thing might soon be worth, I was even more glad that we'd all agreed.
For many years Brian rejected inquiries to buy or even lease part of network 44, but eventually we (the ARDC board) realized that, with IPv6 finally being deployed, IPv4 addresses wouldn't be in demand forever. So we authorized him to seek a buyer of the upper 1/4 that had never been used. I never quite let myself believe that Brian would pull it off. But he did, and now we have a pretty good endowment to do neat things with in ham radio, open source and STEM education.
What really ticks me off, and always will, is that Brian had the vision and did all the hard work yet only lived long enough to see our first two grants (TAPR student scholarships and the ARISS power supply project). Fate has a truly wicked sense of humor.
Phil
Phil,
I appreciate your summary of all this. Apparently, I am late to the game on this news story, but maybe I am not the only one and hopefully others on the -bb learned something from this moment in history. I know I sure did!!
Joseph Armbruster KJ4JIO
On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 8:25 AM Phil Karn karn@ka9q.net wrote:
On 9/11/20 03:43, Joseph Armbruster wrote:
So Hank transferred the block of IPs to you, individually? Was that the kind of thing where you were all working on a campus together and it was all word-of-mouth or was it a more formal act on paper? In 2010 though, why did Brian need to ask Hank at all? I mean at that point, they were your individual property. I'm surprised whatever university you were attending did not try to stake a claim to them. Was there any paper trail regarding the ownership / transfer between the original 1980 phone call request and ARDC's inheritance?
IP addresses were registered somewhat informally in the early days when the Internet was a research project and address blocks were free, but they were regularly published in various Internet documents like RFCs (Requests for Comments). When the Internet grew up, more formal entities like ARIN (American Registry for Internet Numbers) and ICANN (Internet Corporation for Assigned Names and Numbers), among others, were created to register who owned what and to make those databases publicly available. At various times, Hank, Brian and I were on all these lists next to network 44, making us each at various times the legal owners.
I haven't been a student anywhere since I graduated from CMU with my MSEE in 1979.
Since control had been passed informally between us over the years according to whoever was then most willing to do the work, when IPv4 addresses began to get scarce we got concerned that someone might try to grab them from us hams. So Brian proposed to create the nonprofit ARDC to legally own network 44. Since Hank's name and mine had also been associated with 44 at various times, Brian thought it important to make sure all of us were OK with it. I for one never thought twice about it. In fact, when it later dawned on us just *how* much this thing might soon be worth, I was even more glad that we'd all agreed.
For many years Brian rejected inquiries to buy or even lease part of network 44, but eventually we (the ARDC board) realized that, with IPv6 finally being deployed, IPv4 addresses wouldn't be in demand forever. So we authorized him to seek a buyer of the upper 1/4 that had never been used. I never quite let myself believe that Brian would pull it off. But he did, and now we have a pretty good endowment to do neat things with in ham radio, open source and STEM education.
What really ticks me off, and always will, is that Brian had the vision and did all the hard work yet only lived long enough to see our first two grants (TAPR student scholarships and the ARISS power supply project). Fate has a truly wicked sense of humor.
Phil
On 9/11/20 05:47, Joseph Armbruster wrote:
Phil,
I appreciate your summary of all this. Apparently, I am late to the game on this news story, but maybe I am not the only one and hopefully others on the -bb learned something from this moment in history. I know I sure did!!
Joseph Armbruster KJ4JIO
Sure.
It just occurred to me that I probably never posted this to amsat-bb. I wrote it for Brian Kantor's memorial service back in early February (which already seems a lifetime ago). It touches on the history of amprnet and ARDC since that was so important to him.
http://www.ka9q.net/brian-eulogy.pages.pdf
--Phil
Indeed this is fascinating! Thanks for sharing it, Phil.
I wonder if there are any other non-commercial entities holding big blocks of addresses. I suppose it would not be THAT hard to find out. (I'm pretty sure HP via Digital holds a whole quad's worth unless they have sold it off or split it among their various spin-offs since I worked there, but this obviously a commercial entity). MIT? Stanford?
73, Burns WB1FJ
On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 8:48 AM Joseph Armbruster via AMSAT-BB < amsat-bb@amsat.org> wrote:
Phil,
I appreciate your summary of all this. Apparently, I am late to the game on this news story, but maybe I am not the only one and hopefully others on the -bb learned something from this moment in history. I know I sure did!!
Joseph Armbruster KJ4JIO
On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 8:25 AM Phil Karn karn@ka9q.net wrote:
On 9/11/20 03:43, Joseph Armbruster wrote:
So Hank transferred the block of IPs to you, individually? Was that the kind of thing where you were all working on a campus together and it was all word-of-mouth or was it a more formal act on paper? In 2010 though, why did Brian need to ask Hank at all? I mean at that point, they were your individual property. I'm surprised whatever university you were attending did not try to stake a claim to them. Was there any paper trail regarding the ownership / transfer between the original 1980 phone call request and ARDC's inheritance?
IP addresses were registered somewhat informally in the early days when the Internet was a research project and address blocks were free, but they were regularly published in various Internet documents like RFCs (Requests for Comments). When the Internet grew up, more formal entities like ARIN (American Registry for Internet Numbers) and ICANN (Internet Corporation for Assigned Names and Numbers), among others, were created to register who owned what and to make those databases publicly available. At various times, Hank, Brian and I were on all these lists next to network 44, making us each at various times the legal owners.
I haven't been a student anywhere since I graduated from CMU with my MSEE in 1979.
Since control had been passed informally between us over the years according to whoever was then most willing to do the work, when IPv4 addresses began to get scarce we got concerned that someone might try to grab them from us hams. So Brian proposed to create the nonprofit ARDC to legally own network 44. Since Hank's name and mine had also been associated with 44 at various times, Brian thought it important to make sure all of us were OK with it. I for one never thought twice about it. In fact, when it later dawned on us just *how* much this thing might soon be worth, I was even more glad that we'd all agreed.
For many years Brian rejected inquiries to buy or even lease part of network 44, but eventually we (the ARDC board) realized that, with IPv6 finally being deployed, IPv4 addresses wouldn't be in demand forever. So we authorized him to seek a buyer of the upper 1/4 that had never been used. I never quite let myself believe that Brian would pull it off. But he did, and now we have a pretty good endowment to do neat things with in ham radio, open source and STEM education.
What really ticks me off, and always will, is that Brian had the vision and did all the hard work yet only lived long enough to see our first two grants (TAPR student scholarships and the ARISS power supply project). Fate has a truly wicked sense of humor.
Phil
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
I had heard the story before, maybe from Phil at Symposium, but it is good to hear it again. I remember fondly using KA9Q NOS TCP/IP when I was at University. We used it to demo connecting to the PDP11 in the radio shack from a Sinclair Z88 using a TNC and PYE Westminster with a packet crystal. That was in front of all the incoming Electronic Eng and Comp Sci students. The whole setup fitted in a brief case. We picked up quite a few new members from that. It was great stuff.
We definitely need more of that type of thing today. Thanks for guiding this money into a fund that benefits Amateur Radio and STEM. I think that is fantastic,
73 Chris
On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 9:13 AM Burns Fisher via AMSAT-BB < amsat-bb@amsat.org> wrote:
Indeed this is fascinating! Thanks for sharing it, Phil.
I wonder if there are any other non-commercial entities holding big blocks of addresses. I suppose it would not be THAT hard to find out. (I'm pretty sure HP via Digital holds a whole quad's worth unless they have sold it off or split it among their various spin-offs since I worked there, but this obviously a commercial entity). MIT? Stanford?
73, Burns WB1FJ
On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 8:48 AM Joseph Armbruster via AMSAT-BB < amsat-bb@amsat.org> wrote:
Phil,
I appreciate your summary of all this. Apparently, I am late to the game on this news story, but maybe I am not the only one and hopefully others
on
the -bb learned something from this moment in history. I know I sure
did!!
Joseph Armbruster KJ4JIO
On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 8:25 AM Phil Karn karn@ka9q.net wrote:
On 9/11/20 03:43, Joseph Armbruster wrote:
So Hank transferred the block of IPs to you, individually? Was that the kind of thing where you were all working on a campus together and it was all word-of-mouth or was it a more formal act on paper? In 2010 though, why did Brian need to ask Hank at all? I mean at that point, they were your individual property. I'm surprised whatever university you were attending did not try to stake a claim to them. Was there any paper trail regarding the ownership / transfer between the original 1980 phone call request and ARDC's inheritance?
IP addresses were registered somewhat informally in the early days when the Internet was a research project and address blocks were free, but they were regularly published in various Internet documents like RFCs (Requests for Comments). When the Internet grew up, more formal
entities
like ARIN (American Registry for Internet Numbers) and ICANN (Internet Corporation for Assigned Names and Numbers), among others, were created to register who owned what and to make those databases publicly available. At various times, Hank, Brian and I were on all these lists next to network 44, making us each at various times the legal owners.
I haven't been a student anywhere since I graduated from CMU with my MSEE in 1979.
Since control had been passed informally between us over the years according to whoever was then most willing to do the work, when IPv4 addresses began to get scarce we got concerned that someone might try
to
grab them from us hams. So Brian proposed to create the nonprofit ARDC to legally own network 44. Since Hank's name and mine had also been associated with 44 at various times, Brian thought it important to make sure all of us were OK with it. I for one never thought twice about it. In fact, when it later dawned on us just *how* much this thing might soon be worth, I was even more glad that we'd all agreed.
For many years Brian rejected inquiries to buy or even lease part of network 44, but eventually we (the ARDC board) realized that, with IPv6 finally being deployed, IPv4 addresses wouldn't be in demand forever.
So
we authorized him to seek a buyer of the upper 1/4 that had never been used. I never quite let myself believe that Brian would pull it off.
But
he did, and now we have a pretty good endowment to do neat things with in ham radio, open source and STEM education.
What really ticks me off, and always will, is that Brian had the vision and did all the hard work yet only lived long enough to see our first two grants (TAPR student scholarships and the ARISS power supply project). Fate has a truly wicked sense of humor.
Phil
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
Opinions
expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
program!
Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Anyone on the -bb,
So, this is the first i've read about any of this amateur radio IP stuff and i'm still digging around, learning about it. I assume this is common knowledge in the amateur radio community... but as for me, this is news!!! I just whois'd 44.192.0.1 and saw good ole amazon:
Organization: Amazon.com, Inc. (AMAZO-4)
RegDate: 2019-07-18
So it appears at least Amazon purchased part of the addresses. Garsh... If only I was born a couple decades earlier, and went to school with Hank Magnuski, et al.... (ref [HM] RFC790)... Maybe, 'my charity inc' could have inherited part of that... I mean, what a deal!!! Now, according to wikipedia and other sources the sale raised over 50 million USD!!! (ref: https://forums.qrz.com/index.php?threads/a-civil-discussion-about-the-future... )
50 million american pesos!!!!!! Holy smokes!! ! ! ! ! !!!!! ! ! !!!!
Now, i'm not sure if that figure is correct, can anyone on the -bb verify this? Two public references appear to suggest this number. If this figure is correct, can ARDC spare another, say... several million for a launch for AMSAT? All this moping around on the -bb, pretending that the amateur radio community does not have the funding for a launch at this point, all seems reasonably ridiculous to me now... Did I miss something?
K, Joseph Armbruster KJ4JIO
On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 9:16 PM Joseph Armbruster < josepharmbruster@gmail.com> wrote:
Bruce,
Wowzers! That's a pile of money and it's kind of difficult for me to piece this together... but, whenever such a large amount of $ is involved, I always like to trace it. I'm digging through all this trying to figure out where the heck ARDC could come up with a metric (or english) pile of money like that to distribute in a grant and so-far, i've determined:
- IANA designated 44/8 for "AMPRNET Amature Radio Experiment Net", back
in the day... ref: https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc790
- Via some legal (questionable?) wizardry, ARDC was able to stake a
claim to 100% of 44/8, and sell off IPs that were designated for Amateur Radio Experiment Net ref: https://www.ampr.org/wp-content/uploads/Courtesy-Notice-to-AG-Signed-ARDC.pd...
- Robert McGwier (N4HY) is on the "2020 Grants Advisory Committee" for
ARDC: ref: https://www.ampr.org/giving/
- And he's also involved with ORI:
ref: https://openresearch.institute/public/mailing-lists/ground-station/ground-st...
- ORI ends up with a massive grant!
I do admit.... this is incredible work! I have a few questions about RFC790 and the ownership of those IPs. Can you explain to everyone on the -bb, how the living heck ARDC had the legal right to ownership to all of those IPs.
One thing is quite obvious from all of this... Namely, I need to quit my job and come work with you all of you!
Joseph Armbruster KJ4JIO
On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 8:41 PM Bruce Perens via AMSAT-BB < amsat-bb@amsat.org> wrote:
This is just part of a complete plan to provide for the space and ground needs of amateur radio. Thus, you can expect to see additional grants on this scale. ORI remains an AMSAT-Affiliated organization, and the participation of AMSAT and its members is always welcome.
Thanks BruceOn Thu, Sep 10, 2020, 4:04 PM Robert McGwier rwmcgwier@gmail.com wrote:
ARDC awarded ORI $500,000 to do major development on the phase 4 ground digital communications terminal. ORI has assembled a tremendous
engineering
team to do this work.
Congratulations to ORI. I was informed the check is in the mail. This
is
the largest grant ARDC has given to date. ORI was previously awarded
large
grants by the ARRL foundation and the Yasme foundation to support the
work.
73s Bob N4HY
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On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 7:40 PM Joseph Armbruster < josepharmbruster@gmail.com> wrote:
If this figure is correct, can ARDC spare another, say... several million for a launch for AMSAT?
Yeah, probably. One thing you need to be clear about. Everything that ARDC funds must be Open. It's their rule. So, it's going to need some change in the direction of AMSAT.
I can't speak for the ARDC guys at all, but I know that some of them have reason to be upset with AMSAT and have said so. Over misdirected donations, and some organizational issues, and some of the technical direction, and definitely that "Open" thing.
I knew this was happening for a long time, and it was always close to my mind during the election discussion, and I could not talk about it. Now you might understand more of were I was coming from.
Thanks
Bruce
To me this is a huge reason for AMSAT to embrace open source. It looks like there is a path through the ITAR/EAR limitation. ARDC has greater than $50 million and plan to give away 5% a year from what I read. That's $2.5 million a year for 20 years. There is plenty of time for AMSAT to figure out how to go all open source and win grants.
73, John Brier KG4AKV
On Thu, Sep 10, 2020, 22:55 Bruce Perens via AMSAT-BB amsat-bb@amsat.org wrote:
On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 7:40 PM Joseph Armbruster < josepharmbruster@gmail.com> wrote:
If this figure is correct, can ARDC spare another, say... several million for a launch for AMSAT?
Yeah, probably. One thing you need to be clear about. Everything that ARDC funds must be Open. It's their rule. So, it's going to need some change in the direction of AMSAT.
On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 8:55 PM John Brier johnbrier@gmail.com wrote:
That's $2.5 million a year for 20 years.
Actually, it is not limited to 20 years. Granting organizations invest their funds, and grant from the income. This is probably meant to still be going long from now.
Thanks
Bruce
Since someone complained about not clipping emails. I will try to do it when I can :-) It's harder to do on mobile.
On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 11:58 PM Bruce Perens bruce@perens.com wrote:
On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 8:55 PM John Brier johnbrier@gmail.com wrote:
That's $2.5 million a year for 20 years.
Actually, it is not limited to 20 years. Granting organizations invest their funds, and grant from the income. This is probably meant to still be going long from now.
Clearly you're talking to someone who doesn't invest. I imagine you could make a lot of money off that amount of money. Good point!
73, John Brier KG4AKV
On 9/11/20 00:07, John Brier via AMSAT-BB wrote:
That's $2.5 million a year for 20 years.
Actually, it is not limited to 20 years. Granting organizations invest their funds, and grant from the income. This is probably meant to still be going long from now.
Clearly you're talking to someone who doesn't invest. I imagine you could make a lot of money off that amount of money. Good point!
The IRS requires charitable foundations that earn most of their income from investments (as opposed to public donations) to give away at least 5% of their assets every year. Unfortunately, that number doesn't seem to change with inflation or the prevailing market returns so it may or may not be possible to make grants in perpetuity without growing your endowment from other sources.
Phil
On 9/10/20 20:55, John Brier via AMSAT-BB wrote:
To me this is a huge reason for AMSAT to embrace open source.
Yes, ARDC funding is a reason but it's not the only one.
Everybody on the ARDC board and grant committee agrees that one of the main reasons (if not THE main reason) for amateur radio's continued existence is its unique value as an educational tool. Not just formal classroom instruction but the kind of self-directed, hands-on tinkering and experimentation with electronics and communications that is still unique to ham radio.
When I became a ham in 1971 at age 14, I didn't want to just talk on the radio. I wanted to know how radios worked, what was behind the knobs. I carried a sheaf of Heathkit schematics around with me in school, peeking at them in class as other kids might peek at comic books. I learned a lot by studying them and by modifying and experimenting on the old ham gear (much of it Heathkit) I could actually afford. It cemented my decision to get my EE degrees and specifically to go into the communications industry. Ham radio set the entire direction of my life.
There's been a huge amount of progress in electronic communications over 50 years. But not all of it has been for the better when it comes to learning by taking things apart. Take an iPhone apart and figure out how it works. Good luck!
That's where open source comes in. It's become a very successful development model, mainly for software but increasingly also for hardware. It works because open source is above all an excellent educational tool. Anybody -- even students with no money -- can get an open source design, take it apart, study it, experiment with it, break it, fix it. Maybe even improve it, share your work with others, build a reputation and turn it into a career.
So, ARDC aside, open source is very much in keeping with the spirit and history of ham radio. In fact, it's now essential to the survival of ham radio, including the amateur satellite service. No, you don't *have* to know anything about how a radio works just to use one. But what's the point? If you want to talk on a satellite, and you only care that it works, not *how* it works, you might be better served by Iridium (or soon Starlink) than by amateur radio satellites. Quite frankly, ham radio will never compete favorably with Iridium or Starlink, nor could it because of FCC restrictions. So what's the point of developing an amateur radio satellite unless it's all in the open?
ARDC is a nonprofit foundation so all of our grants must be for charitable purposes. That does not include making money unless *that* money is used for charitable purposes. (Our endowment income goes into grants). But the development of open source technology freely available to anyone for any purpose *is* a completely legitimate charitable purpose; in fact, quite a few open source projects are already supported by foundations.
And if one of our grants helps inspire a young person into a successful STEM career, well, I personally can't think of a single better use for our money.
--Phil
Bruce,
When you say "everything that ARDC funds must be Open", as an observer, it makes me squirm in my seat just a little bit. First, there's nothing in their articles of incorporation about that, ref: https://www.ampr.org/wp-content/uploads/articles.pdf. I know that only means so much, and says nothing about it's membership and how they feel about things, but it is sufficient to say, that it funded at least one activity, namely the sale of some amateur IPs to a commercial entity, that many would argue is not an "Open" activity. I suppose exceptions can always be made when there are Mega-bucks involved :-). I get it. I completely understand Phils response and how it is an action of financial opportunity, which has and will continue to benefit the amateur community. Nothing more to say except high-five to Phil and his crew for being in the right place at the right time, maintaining good relationships and leveraging a resource at a good time! Quite the story, indeed!
Joseph Armbruster KJ4JIO
On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 10:54 PM Bruce Perens bruce@perens.com wrote:
On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 7:40 PM Joseph Armbruster < josepharmbruster@gmail.com> wrote:
If this figure is correct, can ARDC spare another, say... several million for a launch for AMSAT?
Yeah, probably. One thing you need to be clear about. Everything that ARDC funds must be Open. It's their rule. So, it's going to need some change in the direction of AMSAT.
I can't speak for the ARDC guys at all, but I know that some of them have reason to be upset with AMSAT and have said so. Over misdirected donations, and some organizational issues, and some of the technical direction, and definitely that "Open" thing.
I knew this was happening for a long time, and it was always close to my mind during the election discussion, and I could not talk about it. Now you might understand more of were I was coming from.
Thanks Bruce
On 9/11/20 06:11, Joseph Armbruster via AMSAT-BB wrote:
Bruce,
When you say "everything that ARDC funds must be Open", as an observer, it makes me squirm in my seat just a little bit. First, there's nothing in their articles of incorporation about that, ref: https://www.ampr.org/wp-content/uploads/articles.pdf.
Nonprofits are advised to keep their articles of incorporation as general as possible and put the more specific stuff in the Bylaws where they can be more easily changed as needed.
I know that only means so much, and says nothing about it's membership and how they feel about things, but it is sufficient to say, that it funded at least one activity, namely the sale of some amateur IPs to a commercial entity, that many would argue is not an "Open" activity. I suppose exceptions can always be made when there are Mega-bucks involved :-). I get it. I completely understand Phils response and how it is an action of financial opportunity, which has and will continue to benefit the amateur community. Nothing more to say except high-five to Phil and his crew for being in the right place at the right time, maintaining good relationships and leveraging a resource at a good time! Quite the story, indeed!
ARDC is not a membership organization. Its policy is set by its board of directors.
We have a pretty specific and widely accepted definition of "open": any intellectual property we fund must be made freely available under one of the accepted open source or Creative Commons licenses, as appropriate. It does not mean that anything and everything ARDC has in its files must be published. I don't think you'd expect us to openly publish access credentials for our investment accounts, for example. But we will release our financial information as required for any nonprofit.
ARDC expects to fund most open IP development through grants, but we may also offer to "buy out" certain specific pieces of existing IP. E.g., we may pay the publisher of a book or magazine or the author of a proprietary computer program that we consider especially valuable to make their work freely available under an open source or Creative Commons license. Either way, ARDC's primary purpose is to increase the amount of freely available technology, technical and educational information available to hams and other experimenters.
Since our ultimate goal is education, we also contribute to scholarship funds. This year we created a block of new scholarships through the Foundation for Amateur Radio and we also matched, dollar for dollar, every existing scholarship awarded by the ARRL Foundation.
Phil
participants (7)
-
Bruce Perens -
Burns Fisher -
Chris Thompson -
John Brier -
Joseph Armbruster -
Phil Karn -
Robert McGwier