Mr. Oler,

I suggest you heed your own advice, as offered to Mr. Bauer in the last paragraph of you email - "Find some manners, stop the internet flame postings and try and be a 'facts and data' kind of guy in deeds not just words you will get farther."

Otherwise, you'll remain boorish - and your posts wastes of band space.

After seeing Mr. Bauer's post to the AMSAT-BB the other day, I correctly deduced that the silly and humorless title of this email was your attempt at being cute and clever in response. I did find irony in your metaphor, however - given the rancid filler that you encase in a vast majority of emails you post to this board. That alone helps me agree whole-heartedly with your assertion below that you are not a NASA know-it-all; I have believed the opposite to be true since the first post from you I read - and this one adds more validation to that belief..

Tim Lilley - N3TL Athens, Ga. - EM84ha

________________________________ From: Rocky Jones orbitjet@hotmail.com To: ka3hdo@comcast.net; Amsat BB amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 11:14:49 PM Subject: [amsat-bb] The Beef Frank is in the east

Pasture...along with the milking cows, a few goats, and yes the chickens and ducks.  The Longhorn is there more or less for show (no tribute to George Abbey BTW)

Sorry for the late reply Frank.  My wife and I are pregnant so we spent the afternoon looking around The CLEAR LAKE Texas  and Santa Fe area for hospitals that are on either of our health insurance plans..  Then we took the in laws to dinner at The Aquarium in KEMAH (the boardwalk at Kemah) (it is the mother in laws birthday), after which we had some pleasant conversation.

I stress our itinerary because it tells the group what you must already know (since you are in the keyboard commando mode) that I live in the area of Houston that the JSC calls home. Running the call sign would have told you that.    The House is about 1.2 nm from the North gate of JSC just south on  Space Center.  In normal times I jog the course there and back four times in the morning.  I've lived in  Clear Lake for quite a bit.  Still own the house there although after my latest DXpedition the housesitter wont be clear of it until Jan next year.  Fortunately we have the farm in Santa Fe.

Since I live in the area I  have quite a few friends/chums/associates/neighbors/etc who are current employees at NASA or the contractors.  They know I am interested in space policy, amateur radio (you should see the setup at the house in Clear Lake), and share things. That is one source of information and it is pretty good. It is good enough for the statement I made.  (I am amused that you ran me through the data base, but caution you that NASA watch pointed out how flawed that data base is...)

So after conversation with the family and before responding to the post you put out I fed it through the USC "internet flame war" program that is standard US government affair and found out that both you and Jeff Hanley managed a email that touched all the "internet flame war" points.  Two peas in a pod I guess

Frank, I dont respond kindly to emails where the person sending puts up a claim that I didnt make (""know all" that is going on within NASA") and then starts his own rant with a question based on that premise ("  And how

are you all knowing???).  And does it all in public not in a private email.  People on the board have asked me what I do privately and I've been pleased to give them chapter line and verse.  This time I'll be kind and just chalk it up to you having gone zero impedance to ground over how things are going.

I did find the "

Or are you using another alias besides Robert Oler or Rocky Jones?" amusing.

It is the weakest of the internet flame tactics you use and the most amusing .  It is also even more nonsensical then the rest of the post from you.  I have signed everything on this BB and as best I can tell on the "internets" (to quote our last President) with my full name or my name that has some identifier with it so it is not just a "Robert".  That is where the call sign comes in handy.  With me posting my call sign if you are confused, well that is your fault, not mine.  The line you use is a little above "when did you stop beating you're wife" in logical validity.

Finally..

As for 80 percent of "suitsat 2 failing"...actually that is the consensus among a lot of folks at the center.  I give "Suitsat 2" less then 10 percent chance of working.  That didnt take oh several decades of dealing with complex programs or a bunch of US government schools or a lot of engineering degrees to figure out.  It is really not "rocket science"...Suitsat 1 was a bomb and it was much simpler.  Now they are trying something more complicated...  I am not even sure it deploys.  If it flops well it is hard to see a lot of ham radio traction on the space station after that.

But Just think, if it works you can tell me I was wrong!  Wont that be fun?

Are you upset because you have heard the same thing?  LOL

Find some manners, stop the internet flame postings and try and be a "facts and data" kind of guy in deeds no just words you will get farther. If you cant then I can get more aggressive!.  Have a great Thursday night.

Robert G. Oler WB5MZO

From: ka3hdo@comcast.net To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 13:21:10 -0400 Subject: [amsat-bb]  Where's the Beef?

Robert,

You commented:

"As for AMSAT's ARISSsat transponder.  Well we will see if it works.  They are not exactly burning up the track record with success.  We have had this argument and I am willing to sit back and see if it goes, but it is far to much project for the program.  Most of the folks I know at JSC give it less then 20 percent chance of working...In fact it was a source of mirth at a recent BDAY party."

All your e-mails give the impression that you are well positioned within JSC and "know all" that is going on within NASA.  But when I did a Search for your name within the NASA employee and contractor database, the database comes up empty handed.

Given that I am a "facts and data" kind of guy, what up with this?  And how are you all knowing???  What do you really do for a living??  Who are these people you are talking to that are so opinionated?

Or are you using another alias besides Robert Oler or Rocky Jones?  Or is all you are posting on this listserv just your own kind of fluff??

Inquiring minds want to know.

Frank, KA3HDO

---

Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb

_________________________________________________________________ Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/171222985/direct/01/ _______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb

On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 12:14 AM, Rocky Jones orbitjet@hotmail.com wrote:

Finally..

As for 80 percent of "suitsat 2 failing"...actually that is the consensus among a lot of folks at the center.  I give "Suitsat 2" less then 10 percent chance of working.  That didnt take oh several decades of dealing with complex programs or a bunch of US government schools or a lot of engineering degrees to figure out.  It is really not "rocket science"...Suitsat 1 was a bomb and it was much simpler.  Now they are trying something more complicated...  I am not even sure it deploys.  If it flops well it is hard to see a lot of ham radio traction on the space station after that.

I find it terribly frustrating, Rocky, that you keep repeating your entirely bleak assessment of Suitsat, in light of the number of letters I've sent in reply that indicate that the educational aspect of that mission was, in my experience, quite successful. As a sample of these, see, http://www.mail-archive.com/amsat-bb@amsat.org/msg02665.html I know and respect that you do not value that mission as much as other aspects of the amateur satellite program, but to make an honest assessment of Suitsat, you need to do it on its own terms, and, as I understood it, education and outreach was a large part of it.

That said, there were problems with the original suitsat which, were they to appear in ISSSat, would make it difficult (but not impossible, I'd venture) for it to fulfill its missions. However, the reasoning that you ascribe to JPL space scientists seems to suggest that the ISSSat people are unable to learn from these past problems, an attitude that I would think might make their day job very depressing indeed. I rather hope that the majority of space engineers take a more optimistic view of their field; but a discussion at a birthday party is nothing like a survey, of course, so 'consensus' above is an over-statement.

Finally, I'd add that even if your 'less than 10%' assessment were knowable and correct, I would say that AMSAT is right to take this opportunity. We have put a lot of effort into SDX on the ground, it is a very attractive technology, and a free launch opportunity for this is too good to pass up. Moreover, I suspect there are many things being learned along the way in integrating this technology in the spaceframe, which will help us know more. I'm also not sure that the stakes are as high as you suggest: in your assessment, SS1 was a failure, yet we still have been allowed to do SS2. Perhaps the ISS folks recognize other benefits that your assessment does not.

But Just think, if it works you can tell me I was wrong!  Wont that be fun?

I'm sorry to say this, but the above quotation displays a very poor attitude to the efforts of this organization. If I were a betting man, and the bookies would take odds on satellite launches, I'd bet against just about every amateur satellite launch effort. This isn't because we are bad at what we do, it is because space is hard, we often have to get rides on less-than-proven launches, and we try new things. But I want to be part of a group that beats the odds, that does something spectacular, that makes people young and old say, "That's cool!". When it succeeds, a healthy organization does not use this fact to turn on the detractors within its ranks because it is too busy enjoying success; but equally, detractors should not take any pleasure in failures, but rather work hard to give specific advice about how best to find success.

73, Bruce VE9QRP

On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 12:01:30PM -0500, Rocky Jones wrote:

Ham radio is about communicating. If we want to turn its primary task into "education" then it will look very very different.

If you were making this point to a bunch of 40m CW operators then they would quite likely agree with you. I wouldn't respond at all except that there are no doubt a few not thinking clearly who you may have persuaded...

Where you are missing the boat with your derision of projects that are more educational is that AMSAT is a very, very special subset of amateur radio. While we have plenty of communicators in our midst, by default there have to be some space engineers or we don't exist.

Well, unless you assume we can raise a few million bucks and head on down to the neighborhood satellite store to buy one whenever we need a new one...

Designing spacecraft is an entirely different thing that requires a wide variety of engineering skills, some of which have absolutely nothing to do with radio, antennas, or communication.

So one reason that we need a steady stream of students who give a flip about what we are doing is that very soon all the folks who designed and built the Phase 3 birds will be gone. Many of them already are.

And that says nothing at all about the general overall need for humans to embrace science in order to survive. Your argument is a little like the old folks who always complain about having to pay taxes that support public schools even though they never had any kids... I'll bet they are darned glad that someone got an education when they need that new hip or knee -- or heart.

And besides, future projects of things that we sometimes get to play with will come from Universities and while beggars can't be choosers, wouldn't it be wonderful if we had a rosy relationship with an array of students and educators around the globe who are going to space with or without us anyway?

On Fri, 2009-10-16 at 17:57 +0000, Nigel Gunn G8IFF/W8IFF wrote:

According to my license, the primary reason for it's issuance is education. Below are the first three sentences of BR68.

Conditions of use

Purpose

1(1) The Licensee shall use the Station for the purpose of self-training in communication by radio telecommunications, which use (without limiting the generality of the foregoing) includes technical investigations.

That appears to be about you training yourself to use your radios, not about the more general capacity for which amateur radio can be used to further the education of third parties. Which leads one to a question: How does a satellite that you cannot hear provide you an opportunity to self-train in communication by radio telecommunications?

There is a similar section in part 97 of the FCC rules that form the "basis and purpose" of amateur radio. However, I point out that those are words used by the government to justify allocating precious spectrum to ham radio, but they are not what radio amateurs use to justify their commitment of time and treasure to their hobby.

The fact is that while radio amateurs tend to self-educate to gain those skills necessary to actually, you know, communicate, and those skills are beneficial in a wide variety of circumstances, it is also true that that education is beside the point. We talk on our radios because we gain enjoyment from the process of communicating with each other, and we challenge ourselves to gain more and more skills to accomplish things that are more and more difficult.

Now, I hope that amateur radio can be used to educate the greater population to the fullest extent that it can, but without the radio payload "suitsat1" was just an old space suit that someone chucked out an airlock. The whole point of the exercise was that communications facility, and saying that the suitsat1 wasn't a success because that part of the satellite did not work as well as hoped is not in any way an unreasonable thing to do no matter what other benefits might have been gained.

!DSPAM:117,4ad8c1b242761971714535!

Can someone point/provide a list of active birds to track? I enjoy just tracking and listening sometimes, but I'm probably unaware of all the possibilities.

Have the AMSAT list on the website, but figured there are more than I'm aware of.

Thanks, Elan WB2IOL