I was disappointed by N3TL's email posting on the AMSAT BB today concerning ARRL's VUCC program as it applies to satellite operating.
I have been an ARRL member for 55 years. I have VUCC on both 6 meters and 2 meters. I also am on the ARRL DXCC Honor Roll and I have the ARRL #1 Honor Roll plaque for having worked all the DXCC countries. I have been around for awhile. I remember very well the Gus Browning , W4BPD QSLs from places that he never operated from or had permission to operate from. I also remember problems that the league had with Don Miller, W9WNV for the same reason in their DXCC program.
I recently got back on the satellites (was on in 1974 through 1976). In about 6 weeks I have worked over 130 Grid Squares. My goal is a VUCC on the satellites. Some of those have been Grid Expeditions. Not so certain now that I want to continue to expand my efforts and money (SASE and outgoing postage) only to have the league question the legitimacy of those operations.
Does the ARRL question the "Rovers" that take part in the ARRL VHF contests ? I am unaware of any of those operations from rare grids being challenged or disallowed. Someone please correct me if I am in error on that opinion.
I had been planning to do some grid expeditions myself. There should be some communication and understanding by the league that is missing at this time. It is a shame that there is inconsistency and selective application of documentation and confirmation standards of where you were operating from.
Disappointed but not surprised by the ARRL's AD HOC rule enforcement.
Jim W9VNE EM79tb Cincinnati, Ohio
Jim and all,
Thanks for your thoughtful post, and congratulations on your achievements over the years. That is all very cool!
You may have seen my update - that the ARRL Awards Desk informed the man who reviewed my application and cards that it will accept the contacts in question, so my Satellite VUCC application is going in today with all 130 grid squares I claimed being accepted and approved. I'm truly excited because it's Satellite VUCC totally handheld (i.e., radio in one hand, antenna in the other), which was my goal.
I suspect I'm not the first to do it, but I'm thrilled to have Handheld Satellite VUCC in the works. Who else has done HH/VUCC? Drop me a note - we need to start a net or something, or at least come up with a logo for our QSL cards!
Like you, Jim, I don't anticipate doing much more in the way of claiming grids. Handheld Satellite VUCC was my goal. I'll continue to send QSLs to stations when I work them the first time, and I'm sure I'll send SASEs to stations whose grids I'd like to confirm - like VE8NSD from AO-51 last night.
I also have on file an application for the AMSAT Satellite Achievement Award using only contacts I made runninng 50 mW RF out on the same set of 2 AA Duracells in my HT. I'm at least as excited about that as I am HH/VUCC because of what it says about our abilities as amateurs to facilitate useful communication under truly emergency conditions.
I would like to earn Satellite WAS because I'm fairly close (it sure won't be handheld, though!), and I hope to work and confirm the minimum of states/provinces/countries necessary to apply for a separate AMSAT Achievement Award using only AO-16 "bent pipe" contacts. It's only got a few weeks left, it seems, and I'd sure like to be able to have that certificate as a reminder of (1) the resourcefulness of AMSAT folks in making it a viable communicatons tool again, and (2) the satellite itself, and how much fun it provided after many pretty much concluded it was gone forever.
I need four more at this point for the AO-16 award. Maybe I should list what I have here, and ask anyone who lives in other states/provinces/countries within the footprint (when it include EM84) to listen for me.
I thank the ARRL Awards Desk for accepting those grids, and I will contact them about the one pass I worked from a grid border to confirm whether they will accept those handful of contacts I made, in case the stations I work want to claim the grids on the basis of our contacts. I'll let you know what I hear.
73 to all,
Tim - N3TL AMSAT Member No. 36820 Athens, Ga. - EM84ha
-------------- Original message from "Jim Danehy" jdanehy@cinci.rr.com: --------------
I was disappointed by N3TL's email posting on the AMSAT BB today concerning
ARRL's VUCC program as it applies to satellite operating. I have been an ARRL member for 55 years. I have VUCC on both 6 meters and 2 meters. I also am on the ARRL DXCC Honor Roll and I have the ARRL #1 Honor Roll plaque for having worked all the DXCC countries. I have been around for awhile. I remember very well the Gus Browning , W4BPD QSLs from places that he never operated from or had permission to operate from. I also remember problems that the league had with Don Miller, W9WNV for the same reason in their DXCC program. I recently got back on the satellites (was on in 1974 through 1976). In about 6 weeks I have worked over 130 Grid Squares. My goal is a VUCC on the satellites. Some of those have been Grid Expeditions. Not so certain now that I want to continue to expand my efforts and money (SASE and outgoing postage) only to have the league question the legitimacy of those operations.
Does the ARRL question the "Rovers" that take part in the ARRL VHF contests ? I am unaware of any of those operations from rare grids being challenged or disallowed. Someone please correct me if I am in error on that opinion.
I had been planning to do some grid expeditions myself. There should be some communication and understanding by the league that is missing at this time. It is a shame that there is inconsistency and selective application of documentation and confirmation standards of where you were operating from.
Disappointed but not surprised by the ARRL's AD HOC rule enforcement.
Jim W9VNE EM79tb Cincinnati, Ohio _______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
On Oct 6, 2008, at 9:58 AM, Jim Danehy wrote:
Does the ARRL question the "Rovers" that take part in the ARRL VHF contests ? I am unaware of any of those operations from rare grids being challenged or disallowed. Someone please correct me if I am in error on that opinion.
This is a moot point. In the VHF contests rovers are only allowed to operate from one grid at a time. So if a rover is straddling grids, he must chose one or the other to send as an exchange and move a reasonable distance, I think 100 Meters, before the rover can operate in another grid.
Rover operation in contests is more restrictive than other times, not less. I rove and I know. - Duffey -- KK6MC James Duffey Cedar Crest NM
Jim noted:
"...I was disappointed by N3TL's email posting on the AMSAT BB today concerning ARRL's VUCC program as it applies to satellite operating..."
As I read it...you were disappointed with the ARRL and not N3TL's questioning. I too worked through Gus Browning and Don Miller...
If the league has a legitimate question...as in the intersections are in a "lake" "ocean" or side of a "shear cliff" they should request documentation from the "DXpeditioner" for some sort of proof...
GPS would be the ultimate, but 360 degrees of pictures from a camera could be the standard. (Next they would want recordings to make sure there aren't any "Ghost" contacts.)
ARRL is not capable of overseeing Satellite contacts and awards...they really don't care about satellites...
VUCC satellite should be an AMSAT function so that those who understand the hobby can judge the hobby!
Roger WA1KAT
----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Danehy" jdanehy@cinci.rr.com To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Monday, October 06, 2008 11:58 AM Subject: [amsat-bb] ARRL VUCC
I was disappointed by N3TL's email posting on the AMSAT BB today
concerning ARRL's VUCC program as it applies to satellite operating.
I have been an ARRL member for 55 years. I have VUCC on both 6 meters and
2 meters. I also am on the ARRL DXCC Honor Roll and I have the ARRL #1 Honor Roll plaque for having worked all the DXCC countries. I have been around for awhile. I remember very well the Gus Browning , W4BPD QSLs from places that he never operated from or had permission to operate from. I also remember problems that the league had with Don Miller, W9WNV for the same reason in their DXCC program.
I recently got back on the satellites (was on in 1974 through 1976). In
about 6 weeks I have worked over 130 Grid Squares. My goal is a VUCC on the satellites. Some of those have been Grid Expeditions. Not so certain now that I want to continue to expand my efforts and money (SASE and outgoing postage) only to have the league question the legitimacy of those operations.
Does the ARRL question the "Rovers" that take part in the ARRL VHF
contests ? I am unaware of any of those operations from rare grids being challenged or disallowed. Someone please correct me if I am in error on that opinion.
I had been planning to do some grid expeditions myself. There should be
some communication and understanding by the league that is missing at this time. It is a shame that there is inconsistency and selective application of documentation and confirmation standards of where you were operating from.
Disappointed but not surprised by the ARRL's AD HOC rule enforcement.
Jim W9VNE EM79tb Cincinnati, Ohio _______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Roger
Your conclusion about my prior comment (N3TL's post) is proper. It is the League in whom I was disappointed . . . . . lack of publicity. . . . . mainly.
Your comment that the League is not interested in satellite operations is, in my opinion, also proper. I posted a few weeks ago here on the AMSAT BB my "first impressions" . I had operated satellites in 1974-1976. Upon my return in August 2008 I was shocked that I actually operated through 7 different satellites. There are some that I have not yet tried too. From my reading of QST I had the inaccurate impression that there was one FM repeater type and maybe a digital bird too. I am not the sharpest pencil in the box but I am not alone in my inaccurate perception. I walked past AMSAT'S booth at the Dayton Hamvention the past few years. It was not until I was outside the convention building this year and saw a live demo that my interest was again raised. I have invested in a couple of M Squared yagis, an elevation rotor and a Ham M for my satellite operation. Then I upgraded to an Icom 910H with almost every option but the 1296 mhz module. That is a nice amount of change to throw into the satellite game. It works fairly well and has provided me a great amount of enjoyment in my recent retirement.
I was disappointed that AMSAT and ARRL have not accurately publicized what is available. I remember a column in QST some years ago. Nothing now days.
I might add that I normally look up those I work (so far 500 QSOs in 135 grids) on QRZ.COM. I see that more than one-third are old timers. I worked one Old Timer who is well into his late nineties and several who are in there nineties. The satellites need more publicity. I have found almost everyone on the birds to be outgoing, friendly and courteous. I am enjoying the birds. Thank you AMSAT and ARRL for their contributions. A better job can be done to encourage satellite usage. I see there are those who are attempting that. I hope I can make a contribution. I gathered a small group of satellite users here in Cincinnati for lunch a week ago. We are helping each other with issues (software, antennas etc). Ham Radio is a wonderful hobby.
73 Jim W9VNE
----- Original Message ----- From: "Roger Kolakowski" rogerkola@aol.com To: "Jim Danehy" jdanehy@cinci.rr.com; amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Monday, October 06, 2008 8:31 PM Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] ARRL VUCC
Jim noted:
"...I was disappointed by N3TL's email posting on the AMSAT BB today concerning ARRL's VUCC program as it applies to satellite operating..."
As I read it...you were disappointed with the ARRL and not N3TL's questioning. I too worked through Gus Browning and Don Miller...
If the league has a legitimate question...as in the intersections are in a "lake" "ocean" or side of a "shear cliff" they should request documentation from the "DXpeditioner" for some sort of proof...
GPS would be the ultimate, but 360 degrees of pictures from a camera could be the standard. (Next they would want recordings to make sure there aren't any "Ghost" contacts.)
ARRL is not capable of overseeing Satellite contacts and awards...they really don't care about satellites...
VUCC satellite should be an AMSAT function so that those who understand the hobby can judge the hobby!
Roger WA1KAT
----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Danehy" jdanehy@cinci.rr.com To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Monday, October 06, 2008 11:58 AM Subject: [amsat-bb] ARRL VUCC
I was disappointed by N3TL's email posting on the AMSAT BB today
concerning ARRL's VUCC program as it applies to satellite operating.
I have been an ARRL member for 55 years. I have VUCC on both 6 meters and
2 meters. I also am on the ARRL DXCC Honor Roll and I have the ARRL #1 Honor Roll plaque for having worked all the DXCC countries. I have been around for awhile. I remember very well the Gus Browning , W4BPD QSLs from places that he never operated from or had permission to operate from. I also remember problems that the league had with Don Miller, W9WNV for the same reason in their DXCC program.
I recently got back on the satellites (was on in 1974 through 1976). In
about 6 weeks I have worked over 130 Grid Squares. My goal is a VUCC on the satellites. Some of those have been Grid Expeditions. Not so certain now that I want to continue to expand my efforts and money (SASE and outgoing postage) only to have the league question the legitimacy of those operations.
Does the ARRL question the "Rovers" that take part in the ARRL VHF
contests ? I am unaware of any of those operations from rare grids being challenged or disallowed. Someone please correct me if I am in error on that opinion.
I had been planning to do some grid expeditions myself. There should be
some communication and understanding by the league that is missing at this time. It is a shame that there is inconsistency and selective application of documentation and confirmation standards of where you were operating from.
Disappointed but not surprised by the ARRL's AD HOC rule enforcement.
Jim W9VNE EM79tb Cincinnati, Ohio _______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Your comment that the League is not interested in satellite operations is, in my opinion, also proper. I posted a few weeks ago here on the AMSAT BB my "first impressions" . I had operated satellites in 1974-1976. Upon my
Jim, and others,
I gave up on ARRL a long time ago...They promote what they can sell. The paucity of information regarding satellites was their standard. I have no idea of what they are doing today.
Seems like we have a role reversal...AMSAT is promoting ARRL, and to what benefit for the amateur radio satellite program is a mystery to me??
Some connection there, obviously, maybe someone can explain it??
73, Dave, WB6LLO dguimon1@san.rr.com
Disagree: I learn....
Pulling for P3E...
On Tuesday 07 October 2008 15:20:17 Dave Guimont wrote:
Your comment that the League is not interested in satellite operations is, in my opinion, also proper. I posted a few weeks ago here on the AMSAT BB my "first impressions" . I had operated satellites in 1974-1976. Upon my
Jim, and others,
I gave up on ARRL a long time ago...They promote what they can sell. The paucity of information regarding satellites was their standard. I have no idea of what they are doing today.
Seems like we have a role reversal...AMSAT is promoting ARRL, and to what benefit for the amateur radio satellite program is a mystery to me??
Some connection there, obviously, maybe someone can explain it??
73, Dave, WB6LLO dguimon1@san.rr.com Disagree: I learn.... Pulling for P3E...
I think thats unfair, Dave. The ARRL has a ton of interests and tries to do a tremendous amount of stuff with a fairly small budget. They try (and, are sometimes trying), and they do a lot of good.
If you aren't satisifed with their talk of staellites, and I can understand why, it would be best if you worked on teaching them and getting them to really understand.
Don't say that you've tried and failed. I'll believe you, but failures simply mean that it hasn't been brought up enough. This goes for any of the speciality modes that ham radio has. I've heard plenty of groussing on other mailing lists too, for perceived slights by the ARRL from other smaller speciality communities.
The ARRL is all we have. There is no point to try and create something else because I don't think enough people could/would ever step up to do anything, not that I think it would be reasonable to do that. Instead, I think it is encumbant upon ALL amateurs to step up and help the ARRL, to reshape it in such a way as to accurately reflect the wishes and desires of the groups that make up all the interests in our hobby.
What this means is Politics meets Ham Radio.
Politics is the interaction between people, say about three of more of them. An entity like the ARRL has internal politics, and deals with *real world* politics, like BPL. Sometimes, they make some pretty stunning wins, like the recent crabbing they did with regard to the FCC's proceedural moves with BPL. That helped ham radio hugely, for it reminded the FCC that the little puny ham community can create legal muster that has to be reckoned with, not to mention the actual problems with BPL itself.
The ARRL is hardly perfect. They've come a long way however, and with our help they will improve. If anyone reading this has given up on them in disgust, please remember that first (or even fifth) efforts at things might not work, and one needs to plug away at the cause...
Sending reasoned discourse to them--and getting your friends to do that as well--is a start to changing the VUCC regs, or whatever.
But let us not give up on the entity that is us. Instead let us work on changing the parts that need it.
--STeve Andre' wb8wsf en82
Very well said Steve. This reflector, and I guess the world in general, has a lot of people who seek to only create barriers and like to play the blame game. You are so right that the ARRL is all that we have. They aren't perfect, they can and should be better. One of the best ways of changing things that you may not be happy with, is to get involved.
The ARRL exists only for amateur radio. And for many years they have been the words and eyes of the amateur community in our government, and in the international stage. I'm sure that without them, we would probably have a very small amount of frequencies that we could use; most of them would have been auctioned off a long time ago. PRB-1 is an extremely important victory that was won, and many people seem to have forgotten that.
What's funny to me is that many times there is more activity on these reflectors than on the air. All of those complaining about multiple things especially about satellites, I never hear on the birds. To me, that's the same as someone who complains about their elected official, yet never bothers to vote.
My elevation rotor is being repaired, so my satellite antennas are down. In the meantime, I just worked 3 stations on AO-16 using my dual band vertical.
73 de W4AS Sebastian
On Oct 7, 2008, at 6:03 PM, STeve Andre' wrote:
I think thats unfair, Dave. The ARRL has a ton of interests and tries to do
a tremendous amount of stuff with a fairly small budget. They try (and, are sometimes trying), and they do a lot of good.
If you aren't satisifed with their talk of staellites, and I can understand why, it would be best if you worked on teaching them and getting them to really understand.
Don't say that you've tried and failed. I'll believe you, but failures simply mean that it hasn't been brought up enough. This goes for any of the speciality modes that ham radio has. I've heard plenty of groussing on other mailing lists too, for perceived slights by the ARRL from other smaller speciality communities.
The ARRL is all we have. There is no point to try and create something else because I don't think enough people could/would ever step up to do anything, not that I think it would be reasonable to do that. Instead, I think it is encumbant upon ALL amateurs to step up and help the ARRL, to reshape it in such a way as to accurately reflect the wishes and desires of the groups that make up all the interests in our hobby.
What this means is Politics meets Ham Radio.
Politics is the interaction between people, say about three of more of them. An entity like the ARRL has internal politics, and deals with *real world* politics, like BPL. Sometimes, they make some pretty stunning wins, like the recent crabbing they did with regard to the FCC's proceedural moves with BPL. That helped ham radio hugely, for it reminded the FCC that the little puny ham community can create legal muster that has to be reckoned with, not to mention the actual problems with BPL itself.
The ARRL is hardly perfect. They've come a long way however, and with our help they will improve. If anyone reading this has given up on them in disgust, please remember that first (or even fifth) efforts at things might not work, and one needs to plug away at the cause...
Sending reasoned discourse to them--and getting your friends to do that as well--is a start to changing the VUCC regs, or whatever.
But let us not give up on the entity that is us. Instead let us work on changing the parts that need it.
--STeve Andre' wb8wsf en82
participants (7)
-
Dave Guimont -
James Duffey -
Jim Danehy -
n3tl＠bellsouth.net -
Roger Kolakowski -
Sebastian -
STeve Andre'