Topic Change -- Now FM Rule -- was -- RE: N8HM Field Day Report - 1B MDC -- Topic Change FM Rule
Awesome Field Day report Paul! Good Job!
Now the week after Field Day is the time for RATIONAL discussion of the single contact FM satellite rule:
Does anyone think it works? Does anyone think it is better than the past?
I will once again trot out my idea for the slings and arrows of others. + I would love to hear your ideas.
Here is my idea:
We call on our membership to establish two well equipped stations for the FM satellites on Field Day. A possibility would be a station using the call W1AW in the east and another using K6KPH in the west. The only FM satellite contacts that would 'count' would be those working W1AW or K6KPH. These commanding stations would be able to hand out contacts quickly and many more folks would be able to get a satellite contact in the log. As it is now the best station to call is one that just completed a contact (because you heard their exchange information) - but that station is prevented by the rules from returning the call without going over their limit.
Think of it as two stations running and everyone else searching and pouncing. It has got be better than what we have now.
My Opinion, 73, Joe, kk0sd
-----Original Message----- From: AMSAT-BB [mailto:amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org] On Behalf Of Paul Stoetzer Sent: Monday, June 27, 2016 2:12 PM To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: [amsat-bb] N8HM Field Day Report - 1B MDC
I only worked satellites during Field Day and I ended up making 97 QSOs on 24 passes of all active 10 voice satellites during the 24 hour period. My score for AMSAT Field Day was 83 points.
The breakdown by satellite is below:
AO-7B - 2 QSOs AO-73 - 10 QSOs, 1 dupe AO-85 - 1 QSO, 5 excess FM QSOs FO-29 - 37 QSOs, 4 dupes LilacSat-2 - 1 QSO, 1 excess FM QSO SO-50 - 1 QSO Ukube-1 - 6 QSOs XW-2A - 11 QSOs XW-2C - 6 QSOs, 2 dupes XW-2F - 8 QSOs, 1 dupe
Total - 83 valid phone QSOs, 8 dupes, 6 excess FM QSOs = 83 points
The major difference between AMSAT and ARRL Field Day rules for satellite is that "satellite" is considered a single band while for AMSAT Field Day, each satellite transponder is considered a separate band. For example, if I worked WD9EWK in SSB on FO-29 and then in SSB on XW-2A, that would be worth two points under AMSAT rules, but only one point under ARRL rules. VE3YRA was my most worked station this year - I worked them on six different satellites.
I was operating 1B from the parking lot/courtyard of my apartment building in southwest Washington, DC.
The equipment I used was as follows:
2 x Yaesu FT-817 (with 3000 mAh internal LiPo batteries) Microset VUR-30 dual band amplifier 5100 mAh LiPo battery for the amplifier High Sierra Microwave LNAA432 preamplifier High Sierra Microwave LNAA146FIL filtered 2m preamp Arrow II 146/437-10BP Dual Band Handheld Yagi
All of this was carried in a camera bag and held by shoulder straps while I held the Arrow in my hand.
It was lots of fun, though tiring to head downstairs and outside for 24 different passes. I only slept for about 2.5 hours between 3:30am and 6:00am (and skipped a pair of AO-7 passes as a result).
One big issue I notice during Field Day is the use of excess power on the transponders and the inexperience and/or inadequate stations used by many of the satellite operators. Many times I would call a station and not receive a reply or someone would start CQing or tuning up on top of me. This was especially noticeable on AO-73 and UKube-1 as the frequencies for the uplink are somewhat different than published. It sounded like many were trying to use their computers to correct for Doppler and did not have the experience necessary to set the uplink offset. I heard several "ditters" trying to find themselves for entire passes. Operating satellites isn't difficult, but it does take some practice and experience to understand the characteristics of each satellite. Trying to figure it out at 1800Z on Field Day Saturday is not the recipe for success.
I would note that my excess FM QSOs (both ARRL and AMSAT rules allow only one QSO per FM satellite, AMSAT rules further limit APRS digipeater QSOs to one per satellite as well) were made because stations were calling and attempting to make a contact with no one else replying and I wanted to make sure they got their QSO.
It's fun doing Field Day from home, but next year I think I would like to head to a Field Day site and help with satellite operations for a club (and maybe fill in elsewhere between passes).
73,
Paul, N8HM _______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Gary,
That has been suggested in the past, but I'm not sure it would work. I heard several stations ignoring the one QSO rule on the one pass of SO-50 that I listened to. That rule is longstanding and well known, so I don't know how you'd actually implement some sort of net control system.
The best solution is having many options available to try. Hopefully next year will be better with the addition of Fox-1Cliff, Fox-1D, and RadFxSat / Fox-1B to the FM satellite fleet.
By the way, LilacSat-2 passes during Field Day were quite underutilized. I called for several minutes on the first East Coast pass before working one station. I then heard another station call with no reply, so I worked them as well. Many more stations could have gotten the satellite bonus by checking the AMSAT status page and seeing that it was on. This brings me back to my original point, if people can't be bothered to check which satellites are active, how are you going to coordinate a net control system as suggested? A couple of us were joking that people were probably still trying to work AO-27 and AO-51 during Field Day.
73,
Paul, N8HM
On Mon, Jun 27, 2016 at 5:06 PM, Gary "Joe" Mayfield kk0sd1@att.net wrote:
Awesome Field Day report Paul! Good Job!
Now the week after Field Day is the time for RATIONAL discussion of the single contact FM satellite rule:
Does anyone think it works? Does anyone think it is better than the past?
I will once again trot out my idea for the slings and arrows of others. + I would love to hear your ideas.
Here is my idea:
We call on our membership to establish two well equipped stations for the FM satellites on Field Day. A possibility would be a station using the call W1AW in the east and another using K6KPH in the west. The only FM satellite contacts that would 'count' would be those working W1AW or K6KPH. These commanding stations would be able to hand out contacts quickly and many more folks would be able to get a satellite contact in the log. As it is now the best station to call is one that just completed a contact (because you heard their exchange information) - but that station is prevented by the rules from returning the call without going over their limit.
Think of it as two stations running and everyone else searching and pouncing. It has got be better than what we have now.
My Opinion, 73, Joe, kk0sd
-----Original Message----- From: AMSAT-BB [mailto:amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org] On Behalf Of Paul Stoetzer Sent: Monday, June 27, 2016 2:12 PM To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: [amsat-bb] N8HM Field Day Report - 1B MDC
I only worked satellites during Field Day and I ended up making 97 QSOs on 24 passes of all active 10 voice satellites during the 24 hour period. My score for AMSAT Field Day was 83 points.
The breakdown by satellite is below:
AO-7B - 2 QSOs AO-73 - 10 QSOs, 1 dupe AO-85 - 1 QSO, 5 excess FM QSOs FO-29 - 37 QSOs, 4 dupes LilacSat-2 - 1 QSO, 1 excess FM QSO SO-50 - 1 QSO Ukube-1 - 6 QSOs XW-2A - 11 QSOs XW-2C - 6 QSOs, 2 dupes XW-2F - 8 QSOs, 1 dupe
Total - 83 valid phone QSOs, 8 dupes, 6 excess FM QSOs = 83 points
The major difference between AMSAT and ARRL Field Day rules for satellite is that "satellite" is considered a single band while for AMSAT Field Day, each satellite transponder is considered a separate band. For example, if I worked WD9EWK in SSB on FO-29 and then in SSB on XW-2A, that would be worth two points under AMSAT rules, but only one point under ARRL rules. VE3YRA was my most worked station this year - I worked them on six different satellites.
I was operating 1B from the parking lot/courtyard of my apartment building in southwest Washington, DC.
The equipment I used was as follows:
2 x Yaesu FT-817 (with 3000 mAh internal LiPo batteries) Microset VUR-30 dual band amplifier 5100 mAh LiPo battery for the amplifier High Sierra Microwave LNAA432 preamplifier High Sierra Microwave LNAA146FIL filtered 2m preamp Arrow II 146/437-10BP Dual Band Handheld Yagi
All of this was carried in a camera bag and held by shoulder straps while I held the Arrow in my hand.
It was lots of fun, though tiring to head downstairs and outside for 24 different passes. I only slept for about 2.5 hours between 3:30am and 6:00am (and skipped a pair of AO-7 passes as a result).
One big issue I notice during Field Day is the use of excess power on the transponders and the inexperience and/or inadequate stations used by many of the satellite operators. Many times I would call a station and not receive a reply or someone would start CQing or tuning up on top of me. This was especially noticeable on AO-73 and UKube-1 as the frequencies for the uplink are somewhat different than published. It sounded like many were trying to use their computers to correct for Doppler and did not have the experience necessary to set the uplink offset. I heard several "ditters" trying to find themselves for entire passes. Operating satellites isn't difficult, but it does take some practice and experience to understand the characteristics of each satellite. Trying to figure it out at 1800Z on Field Day Saturday is not the recipe for success.
I would note that my excess FM QSOs (both ARRL and AMSAT rules allow only one QSO per FM satellite, AMSAT rules further limit APRS digipeater QSOs to one per satellite as well) were made because stations were calling and attempting to make a contact with no one else replying and I wanted to make sure they got their QSO.
It's fun doing Field Day from home, but next year I think I would like to head to a Field Day site and help with satellite operations for a club (and maybe fill in elsewhere between passes).
73,
Paul, N8HM _______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Paul,
You are right about the "net control" approach that has been proposed in the past for Field Day FM satellite passes. Even if you have Field Day stations complying with a rule change that mandates contacts only with the "net control" station(s), there are many times where other stations are on just trying to work stations for the grids or simply to make contacts. I heard that on a LilacSat-2 pass Saturday evening. Not a problem for me; I gave the Field Day exchange and grid to anyone I heard on there, covering my bases. :-)
Speaking of LilacSat-2... the pass I worked Saturday evening around 0112 UTC (6.12pm PDT) was surprisingly easy. In all of the Field Days I have worked via satellite since 2006, I have never seen an easier FM satellite pass than that one. Maybe the thought that LilacSat-2 wouldn't be on for the weekend kept many away, but it did allow me an easy FM satellite demonstration for a ham who was very interested in satellite operation. Using only a Wouxun KG-UV9D and my Elk log periodic, I made 6 QSOs on that pass. One of the 6 will go toward my Field Day score, another one was with a station not participating in Field Day (he gladly took my grid, DM45), and the other 4 will go in the log and be listed on my Field Day submission as non-scoring - something I have done with the extra FM satellite QSOs on my submissions for past Field Days.
As I mentioned in the e-mail I posted in that other thread last night, I worked LilacSat-2 half-duplex. The KG-UV9D, like many dual-band HTs advertised as capable of cross-band full-duplex operation, doesn't work full-duplex with V/U FM satellites like LilacSat-2 or SO-50. The half-duplex demonstration was one of several satellite demonstrations I did at my Field Day site. I also worked two SO-50 passes using an Icom IC-2730A 2m/70cm FM mobile, which is capable of cross-band full-duplex operation for V/U and U/V FM satellites, along with full-duplex operation on XW-2F using an FT-817ND as the transmitter and an SDRplay SDR receiver with an 8-inch Windows 10 tablet running HDSDR as my receiver. I was able to show the differences between half-duplex and full-duplex satellite operation, and explain the clear advantages of full-duplex satellite operation. I will post more about my Field Day operating in a separate e-mail, hopefully later this evening, including my successes with digital QSOs via NO-84 and the ISS.
73!
Patrick WD9EWK/VA7EWK http://www.wd9ewk.net/ Twitter: @WD9EWK
On Mon, Jun 27, 2016 at 9:58 PM, Paul Stoetzer n8hm@arrl.net wrote:
Gary,
That has been suggested in the past, but I'm not sure it would work. I heard several stations ignoring the one QSO rule on the one pass of SO-50 that I listened to. That rule is longstanding and well known, so I don't know how you'd actually implement some sort of net control system.
The best solution is having many options available to try. Hopefully next year will be better with the addition of Fox-1Cliff, Fox-1D, and RadFxSat / Fox-1B to the FM satellite fleet.
By the way, LilacSat-2 passes during Field Day were quite underutilized. I called for several minutes on the first East Coast pass before working one station. I then heard another station call with no reply, so I worked them as well. Many more stations could have gotten the satellite bonus by checking the AMSAT status page and seeing that it was on. This brings me back to my original point, if people can't be bothered to check which satellites are active, how are you going to coordinate a net control system as suggested? A couple of us were joking that people were probably still trying to work AO-27 and AO-51 during Field Day.
73,
Paul, N8HM
On Mon, Jun 27, 2016 at 4:58 PM, Paul Stoetzer n8hm@arrl.net wrote:
. This brings me back to my original point, if people can't be bothered to check which satellites are active,
Google "amsat mode a". First hit here (YMMV!) is "Amateur Satellite FAQ - Amsat" at http://www.amsat.org/amsat/intro/sats_faq.html
It's a document that describes all the great stuff you can work, like MIR and OSCAR-21 and AO-13. Go ahead and get a copy from the Clear Skies BBS - the number is listed! That FAQ is old enough to legally consume alcohol in all 50 states, BTW, having turned 21 at the end of last year.
That's hardly the only instance of obsolete info on the AMSAT website. When I google "what ham satellites are working?" the first AMSAT hit I get is "Working your first Amateur Satellite!" by VK3JED (http://www.amsat.org/amsat-new/information/faqs/langdon.php). I'm sure it was quite accurate when it was written, which was apparently around the time SUNSAT was was launched. That page is now eligible to hold a driver's license in most states.
So let's not be too hard on random people trying to find information.
And yes, taking a cue from the "Volunteer For AMSAT" page, please sign me up for "Web site information maintenance".
Peter
Peter,
The AMSAT web site is kept up to date with current information on a regular basis, but those old pages do contain important archival information and it wouldn't be right to just delete it. There is a massive amount of information useful for those doing historical research in those files. I have used that document and many others on numerous occasions.
From the AMSAT home page, the 'Satellite Info' tab contains links to
plenty of current and accurate information. This page contains all you need to know: http://www.amsat.org/?page_id=177
We are always looking for people to help with the web site. If you have some specific suggestions in mind, please email me.
73,
Paul, N8HM
On Tue, Jun 28, 2016 at 5:02 PM, Peter Laws plaws0@gmail.com wrote:
On Mon, Jun 27, 2016 at 4:58 PM, Paul Stoetzer n8hm@arrl.net wrote:
. This brings me back to my original point, if people can't be bothered to check which satellites are active,
Google "amsat mode a". First hit here (YMMV!) is "Amateur Satellite FAQ - Amsat" at http://www.amsat.org/amsat/intro/sats_faq.html
It's a document that describes all the great stuff you can work, like MIR and OSCAR-21 and AO-13. Go ahead and get a copy from the Clear Skies BBS - the number is listed! That FAQ is old enough to legally consume alcohol in all 50 states, BTW, having turned 21 at the end of last year.
That's hardly the only instance of obsolete info on the AMSAT website. When I google "what ham satellites are working?" the first AMSAT hit I get is "Working your first Amateur Satellite!" by VK3JED (http://www.amsat.org/amsat-new/information/faqs/langdon.php). I'm sure it was quite accurate when it was written, which was apparently around the time SUNSAT was was launched. That page is now eligible to hold a driver's license in most states.
So let's not be too hard on random people trying to find information.
And yes, taking a cue from the "Volunteer For AMSAT" page, please sign me up for "Web site information maintenance".
Peter
-- Peter Laws | N5UWY | plaws plaws net | Travel by Train! _______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
On Tue, Jun 28, 2016 at 4:21 PM, Paul Stoetzer n8hm@arrl.net wrote:
but those old pages do contain important archival information and it wouldn't be right to just delete it.
No one suggested deleting it but it's not even marked as being mostly obsolete.
Most people "in the know" would see MIR and say "wait - *how* old is this?" but if you are in your 20s, you may not know that it's mission ended 15 years ago. But pages like this are not for people who are in the know. Given how close to the top of the page rank these appear, it's a problem to have obsolete information readily available.
I agree with Paul, I would add the adage to RTFM. I don't intend to insult or demean anyone, but before we transmit we should be very familiar with our assets. In my case, I have printed out loads of FAQs and relevant pages on each of the birds. I have them in a ring binder with separators, protected by plastic page protectors. If I want to know about AO-7, I just open to that section (now with some 50+ pages), for example.
73 Dave N4CVX
Sent from my iPad
On Jun 28, 2016, at 16:21, Paul Stoetzer n8hm@arrl.net wrote:
Peter,
The AMSAT web site is kept up to date with current information on a regular basis, but those old pages do contain important archival information and it wouldn't be right to just delete it. There is a massive amount of information useful for those doing historical research in those files. I have used that document and many others on numerous occasions.
From the AMSAT home page, the 'Satellite Info' tab contains links to plenty of current and accurate information. This page contains all you need to know: http://www.amsat.org/?page_id=177
We are always looking for people to help with the web site. If you have some specific suggestions in mind, please email me.
73,
Paul, N8HM
On Tue, Jun 28, 2016 at 5:02 PM, Peter Laws plaws0@gmail.com wrote:
On Mon, Jun 27, 2016 at 4:58 PM, Paul Stoetzer n8hm@arrl.net wrote: . This brings me back to my original point, if people can't be bothered to check which satellites are active,
Google "amsat mode a". First hit here (YMMV!) is "Amateur Satellite FAQ - Amsat" at http://www.amsat.org/amsat/intro/sats_faq.html
It's a document that describes all the great stuff you can work, like MIR and OSCAR-21 and AO-13. Go ahead and get a copy from the Clear Skies BBS - the number is listed! That FAQ is old enough to legally consume alcohol in all 50 states, BTW, having turned 21 at the end of last year.
That's hardly the only instance of obsolete info on the AMSAT website. When I google "what ham satellites are working?" the first AMSAT hit I get is "Working your first Amateur Satellite!" by VK3JED (http://www.amsat.org/amsat-new/information/faqs/langdon.php). I'm sure it was quite accurate when it was written, which was apparently around the time SUNSAT was was launched. That page is now eligible to hold a driver's license in most states.
So let's not be too hard on random people trying to find information.
And yes, taking a cue from the "Volunteer For AMSAT" page, please sign me up for "Web site information maintenance".
Peter
-- Peter Laws | N5UWY | plaws plaws net | Travel by Train! _______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
participants (5)
-
Dave Mann -
Gary "Joe" Mayfield -
Patrick STODDARD (WD9EWK/VA7EWK) -
Paul Stoetzer -
Peter Laws