Indeed. I manually tune all the time. No interfaces to deal with and never a problem finding my downlink. Very much worth a try. Sean Kutzko Amateur Radio KX9X

On Thursday, January 4, 2018, 12:47:14 PM EST, jim@k6ccc.org jim@k6ccc.org wrote:

Ya know, you could MANUALLY tune.  It does work.  In fact I strongly preferred manually tuning for doppler shift vs computer corrected.

Jim K6CCC

-----Original Message----- From: "John" john@amber.org.uk Sent: Thursday, January 4, 2018 02:10 To: "'Dave L'" kb0rfy@q.com, amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] doppler shift

Hi Dave,

When you say your doppler is too far ahead or behind, do you actually mean your overall frequency, or do you mean your split distance?

If you mean your overall frequency then that's really odd, as SatPC32 has always put me smack bang in the middle of the pass-band if using linears (with the correct locator set on login). If this isn't the case you can adjust it in the settings files, but it's generally calculated based on your locator and the Keplerian data you can download (and should be updating every time you open up the app). If, however, you mean your offset (ie finding your own downlink) then this is always a bit variable for me, but usually pretty close.

SatPC32 does, in my experience, remember your offsets when you adjust them (in my case either with the + and - buttons, or the pot at the top right of the rig), so that next time you hit that satellite it keeps the same offsets. You may find your offset is slightly different on different passes, or you may find it's exact every time, but that's part of the fun with linears - finding yourself first!

Hope that helps.

73, John (XLX)

-----Original Message----- From: AMSAT-BB [mailto:amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org] On Behalf Of Dave L Sent: 03 January 2018 23:32 To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: [amsat-bb] doppler shift

I'm useing satpc and a Yaesu ft-847.

Fm birds are not a problem. SSB I'm either to far ahead or behind.

Any hints or advice would be appreciated.

radio and ant are comp controled

thanks

dave

kb0rfy

_______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb

_______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb _______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb

I'm glad you mentioned scouts, John.

I counsel for the radio merit badge for our local scouts, and Elmer our local middle school's radio club. In the club last month, we completed tape measure yagis. And, for this month's radio club meeting, I was planning on having the kids working a couple of birds passing during the meeting time.

I figured that with 10 kids, we could have them in teams for tracking, tuning, recording and operating under my supervision. I thought it would be good for them to try to do everything manually once for two reasons. One is to show that's it's doable on a minimum budget by a teenager. And, the other is so they'll have an appreciation of everything our more automated rig will do during our ARISS QSO in March.

From your comments, I'm rethinking that strategy a bit. Do you think that's too much?

73!

Nick

On Jan 4, 2018, at 9:57 AM, John john@amber.org.uk wrote:

Hey now, don't shoot the messenger! The vast majority of my AMSAT demonstrations are done with groups of scouts of various ages, and the last thing they need to see is me focussing more on the radio than making sure they understand what's going on!

If I've got a piece of software that can correct for doppler shift for me, and it can manage pointing my antennas in the right direction, then it leaves my focus available for the actual operating, and the explanations to the young people who could well be the next generation of amateur radio and AMSAT enthusiasts ;) I think that's a far better use of my resources than sitting there with my back to the people I'm supposed to be introducing to the hobby, and focussing on turning dials and pushing rotator controller buttons...

John (XLX)

-----Original Message----- From: AMSAT-BB [mailto:amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org] On Behalf Of jim@k6ccc.org Sent: 04 January 2018 17:46 To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] doppler shift

Ya know, you could MANUALLY tune. It does work. In fact I strongly preferred manually tuning for doppler shift vs computer corrected.

Jim K6CCC

-----Original Message----- From: "John" john@amber.org.uk Sent: Thursday, January 4, 2018 02:10 To: "'Dave L'" kb0rfy@q.com, amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] doppler shift

Hi Dave,

When you say your doppler is too far ahead or behind, do you actually mean your overall frequency, or do you mean your split distance?

If you mean your overall frequency then that's really odd, as SatPC32 has always put me smack bang in the middle of the pass-band if using linears (with the correct locator set on login). If this isn't the case you can adjust it in the settings files, but it's generally calculated based on your locator and the Keplerian data you can download (and should be updating every time you open up the app). If, however, you mean your offset (ie finding your own downlink) then this is always a bit variable for me, but usually pretty close.

SatPC32 does, in my experience, remember your offsets when you adjust them (in my case either with the + and - buttons, or the pot at the top right of the rig), so that next time you hit that satellite it keeps the same offsets. You may find your offset is slightly different on different passes, or you may find it's exact every time, but that's part of the fun with linears - finding yourself first!

Hope that helps.

73, John (XLX)

-----Original Message----- From: AMSAT-BB [mailto:amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org] On Behalf Of Dave L Sent: 03 January 2018 23:32 To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: [amsat-bb] doppler shift

I'm useing satpc and a Yaesu ft-847.

Fm birds are not a problem. SSB I'm either to far ahead or behind.

Any hints or advice would be appreciated.

radio and ant are comp controled

thanks

dave

kb0rfy

---

Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb

---

Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb _______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb

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Hi Nick,

It all depends on the knowledge and skillset of the scouts in question. My last significant AMSAT demo was done during JOTA, and at that point we had between 100 and 150 young people come through the shack doors throughout the weekend. We didn't have a huge amount of time to explain everything or go really interactive with the control or tracking, and to be honest most of them were amazed enough that they could hear voices coming back from space, so when we listened in to one of the Italian ARISS contacts, they were even more thrilled! My trusty FT-847, SatPC32, ERC-M interface and Kenpro KR5600 did the job nicely, we made quite a few QSOs, and we got to listen to a full ISS pass - something the 80 odd people who poured into the shack when it started will likely not forget for a long time yet.

If your group of scouts is at a level where they've got the understanding, accuracy and, most importantly, the concentration to follow the full pass, then there's no reason not to try it manually with them. If, however, they're less experienced/interested/accurate, then you might find that it's hard to keep them all doing their respective jobs at once. Remember that there's only one of you trying to manage four different teams at that point, so how far you can stretch yourself is another consideration. Especially if your primary focus is on the actual operation of the QSO.

If you want to demonstrate that it can be done on a budget, get them to bring those tape-measure yagis they built with them. Hook up a couple of handhelds or FT817s to them, and demonstrate an FM bird (AO-91, SO-50, or similar?) for the simplest approach. Then step up the game a bit, adding a little more challenge. Even if you just listen during the first pass or two, you'll see the thrill they'll get from knowing it's working with the yagis they built themselves at the last club meeting, and that's where you can gauge whether they are ready to step it up. If you want to add a bit more 'competition' to it, then have them run the yagis and handhelds alongside a full auto-tracking station and see if they can 'match' it (or even 'beat' it). Never underestimate the power of some healthy competition - give 4 teams identical sets of gear, show them where to point, and you'll find that they're competing to see who can hear the satellite the loudest in no time. If, however, you want some successful QSOs, then it's worth having a back-up plan that you can roll out if you aren't getting success.

One of the biggest things I've found in the past with demonstrations is that whilst the latest and greatest kit isn't necessary, having a decent setup that's hassle-free and 'just works' can bail you out of a huge hole. We found the same thing with HF a few years ago - whilst you can theoretically make that QSO to the opposite side of the planet on 1W with a wet piece of string up a tree in the right conditions, it's a lot easier to put on a successful demonstration with an 8 element HF beam at 80 feet on a tower, plenty of TX power and a radio with an excellent receiver. And very often the quality is what will determine whether or not you keep the interest. Making them work for that contact is all well and good, but sometimes instant gratification is better for the uninitiated or more casual folk.

There's no hard and fast formula for what will or won't work. You gotta read your audience, respond to it, and work from there. If you can see they're getting more and more into it, then teach them a bit more, and add to the level of work they have to do to make the pass happen. As a wise scouter once said to me, many years ago (when talking about campfire songs, but the principle applies to this too): If you're drilling for oil, and you don't strike it within the first couple of minutes... stop boring!

In short (or long, as it seems to have become)... See what works for you, but plan to start simple and work upwards! You know your young people better than I do, so assess their capabilities and challenge them, whilst staying within those capabilities.

73, and a firm left handshake, John (XLX)

-----Original Message----- From: Nick Hart [mailto:nickhart@usa.net] Sent: 04 January 2018 19:16 To: John john@amber.org.uk Cc: jim@k6ccc.org; amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] doppler shift

I'm glad you mentioned scouts, John.

I counsel for the radio merit badge for our local scouts, and Elmer our local middle school's radio club. In the club last month, we completed tape measure yagis. And, for this month's radio club meeting, I was planning on having the kids working a couple of birds passing during the meeting time.

I figured that with 10 kids, we could have them in teams for tracking, tuning, recording and operating under my supervision. I thought it would be good for them to try to do everything manually once for two reasons. One is to show that's it's doable on a minimum budget by a teenager. And, the other is so they'll have an appreciation of everything our more automated rig will do during our ARISS QSO in March.

From your comments, I'm rethinking that strategy a bit. Do you think that's

too much?

73!

Nick

On Jan 4, 2018, at 9:57 AM, John john@amber.org.uk wrote:

Hey now, don't shoot the messenger! The vast majority of my AMSAT demonstrations are done with groups of scouts of various ages, and the last thing they need to see is me focussing more on the radio than making sure they understand what's going on!

If I've got a piece of software that can correct for doppler shift for me, and it can manage pointing my antennas in the right direction, then it leaves my focus available for the actual operating, and the explanations to the young people who could well be the next generation of amateur radio and AMSAT enthusiasts ;) I think that's a far better use of my resources than sitting there with my back to the people I'm supposed to be introducing to the hobby, and focussing on turning dials and pushing rotator controller buttons...

John (XLX)

-----Original Message----- From: AMSAT-BB [mailto:amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org] On Behalf Of jim@k6ccc.org Sent: 04 January 2018 17:46 To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] doppler shift

Ya know, you could MANUALLY tune. It does work. In fact I strongly preferred manually tuning for doppler shift vs computer corrected.

Jim K6CCC

-----Original Message----- From: "John" john@amber.org.uk Sent: Thursday, January 4, 2018 02:10 To: "'Dave L'" kb0rfy@q.com, amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] doppler shift

Hi Dave,

When you say your doppler is too far ahead or behind, do you actually mean your overall frequency, or do you mean your split distance?

If you mean your overall frequency then that's really odd, as SatPC32 has always put me smack bang in the middle of the pass-band if using linears (with the correct locator set on login). If this isn't the case you can adjust it in the settings files, but it's generally calculated based on your locator and the Keplerian data you can download (and should be updating every time you open up the app). If, however, you mean your offset (ie finding your own downlink) then this is always a bit variable for me, but usually pretty close.

SatPC32 does, in my experience, remember your offsets when you adjust them (in my case either with the + and - buttons, or the pot at the top right of the rig), so that next time you hit that satellite it keeps the same offsets. You may find your offset is slightly different on different passes, or you may find it's exact every time, but that's part of the fun with linears - finding yourself first!

Hope that helps.

73, John (XLX)

-----Original Message----- From: AMSAT-BB [mailto:amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org] On Behalf Of Dave L Sent: 03 January 2018 23:32 To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: [amsat-bb] doppler shift

I'm useing satpc and a Yaesu ft-847.

Fm birds are not a problem. SSB I'm either to far ahead or behind.

Any hints or advice would be appreciated.

radio and ant are comp controled

thanks

dave

kb0rfy

---

Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb

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official views of AMSAT-NA.

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Wow. Just wow! I bet they loved that.

Our experience was somewhat different, mostly because it was total luck. I'd just finished talking to the two cub-scouts (8-10 years old) and their leader who were sat with me, in one of the last sessions of the day before they were due to leave. I'd done a bit of explanation about satellites, the ISS, mentioned Tim Peake (we're British after all, and pretty much every kid had heard of him) along with a little bit more about all that good stuff. I glanced at my screen, as I didn't have any ARISS schedules to hand, and saw that the ISS was about to come over the horizon, so I said to them "if you want to try to listen and see if we hear anything, I'll show you how it works". I set the expectation at zero, and they said "yeah, why not". Tracking starts, and nothing heard initially, but then a dead FM carrier... They didn't know what that was but heard a change in the sound. Then they heard the ISS calling down to a ground station, but didn't understand the callsigns. They did, however, understand the words "calling from the International Space Station". Bearing in mind this was the first time I'd heard the prelim calls (the ISS hadn't quite appeared over the Italian horizon at that point I don't think), I was still working out what was going on myself, but immediately shouted for the rest of the visitors who were on site to join us. The two cub scouts sat by me still hadn't picked up their jaws at this point - the thud was probably about as loud as your guys' jaws hitting the deck too - but then everyone else piled in, and duly listened to the entire contact, despite not one of them understanding a single word as from that point on once contact had been made, it was all conducted in Italian!

By the time the parents had come to collect their children an hour later or so, video footage had been shared by one of the leaders into the Whatsapp chat they run with their childrens' parents, and most parents had seen/heard about it - they were talking about it on the way in to collect their children, and the children themselves didn't stop talking about it - I'm lead to believe it was the biggest surprise of the weekend, and the most memorable moment for them!

For me, that ten minute pass was the highlight of the weekend, and if nothing else, it made it all well and truly worth it, especially since I was using two completely unknown and untested beams, a rotator kit I'd had in pieces on my lap two weeks prior resoldering connections inside, rebuilding motors and bearings for, and a radio I'd only owned for 3 months and had barely played with. It was most definitely "a bit of a lash-up", but it worked, we got the contacts we wanted (ie any at all), and the young people throughout the weekend got a bit of a better idea about radio, AMSAT and so on. We did keep a couple of 2M tape measure receivers handy too, so we could demonstrate the simple end of the scale, but that made it even better.

You should have heard some of the guesses for the size of the automated birds though - none of them ever imagined a cubesat can be as small as they are...

73, and a firm left handshake, John (XLX)

-----Original Message----- From: George Henry [mailto:ka3hsw@att.net] Sent: 05 January 2018 05:18 To: 'John' john@amber.org.uk; 'Nick Hart' nickhart@usa.net Cc: amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: RE: [amsat-bb] doppler shift

Several years ago, when the ISS repeater was still working, I was doing a satellite demo for the scouts under the K9BSA callsign, working stations right and left with 20 - 25 scouts gathered around the rig, when astronaut Mike Fincke picked up the mic and said "hello to the scouts from the International Space Station, NA1SS!"

I swear, the collective "thud" of the scouts' jaws hitting the floor could be heard for miles...

George, KA3HSW

-----Original Message----- From: AMSAT-BB [mailto:amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org] On Behalf Of John Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2018 1:46 PM To: 'Nick Hart' Cc: amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] doppler shift

Hi Nick,

It all depends on the knowledge and skillset of the scouts in question. My last significant AMSAT demo was done during JOTA, and at that point we had between 100 and 150 young people come through the shack doors throughout the weekend. We didn't have a huge amount of time to explain everything or go really interactive with the control or tracking, and to be honest most of them were amazed enough that they could hear voices coming back from space, so when we listened in to one of the Italian ARISS contacts, they were even more thrilled! My trusty FT-847, SatPC32, ERC-M interface and Kenpro KR5600 did the job nicely, we made quite a few QSOs, and we got to listen to a full ISS pass - something the 80 odd people who poured into the shack when it started will likely not forget for a long time yet.

<snip>