Re: brain picking time
Hello Domenico & all Thanks for all the information. The measured F/D ratio works out to 0.375, therefore a patch would be appropriate. As mentioned earlier I would be content to just be able to receive EME (for now). For transmitting no doubt a different feed would be needed. Currently I am looking around for a preamp. I built a dual helix feed I am going to use on a four foot primestar off center dish. I used to receive on AO40 (sobsob) with a 3731AA downconverter. This same system will be used for transmitting (L band) on our next HEO. Maybe by planning and working toward the next HEO will generate more intense drive by all concerned. I can mount the 70 watt amp behind the 12 foot TVRO as suggested. Could a short helix be used for receive on the big dish? They are easier to build as opposed to a patch. All this work (fun) will help fill the void untill the next HEO. From what I am reading on the BB I could be at this for a long time. Any additional information would be helpf ull, p erhaps others can get something out of this. I have some pictures of the dish, dual helix I can send upon request. 73 Bob W7LRD Seattle
-- "if this were easy, everyone would be doing it"
-------------- Original message -------------- From: "i8cvs" domenico.i8cvs@tin.it
Hi Bob, W7LRD
Before to start anyting you must to know the F/D ratio of your dish because this parameter will tell you if a patch as a feed is suitable or not for it.
If your TVRO dish is a prime focus dish to measure the F/D ratio is very easy
Put your dish horizontal on the ground looking up 90 degrees and strain a rope passing just through the center of the mouth and measure the diameter D
Measure the depth of the dish just from the center of the mouth between the rope and the bottom of the dish and call the deepth c 2 D D F/D = ----------------- and the focal point F = -------------- from the bottom of the dish 16 x c 16 x c
If the F/D ratio is less than 0.5 then a patch can be used but if F/D is greater then 0.5 then a patch is not suitable.
By the way a patch as a feed is not used at all for EME because there are type of specialized feed that are much and much better.
If the F/D ratio is less of 0.5 then a VE4MA feed can be used and if the F/D ratio is greater of 0,5 then a dual mode dish W2IMU must be used.
Both VE4MA and W2IMU are dual port feeds one the LHCP is used to transmit and the other one the RHCP is used to receive.
Waiting for P3E and depending of the F/D ratio of a 5 meter dish that I plan to build for 1296 MHz EME I have already built both a VE4MA and a W2IMU feeds in order to be prepared for EME in the future because unfortunately the future seems to be not bright for the HEO satellites.
73" de
i8CVS Domenico
----- Original Message ----- From: w7lrd@comcast.net To: Edward Cole ; i8cvs ; AMSAT-BB Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2008 7:39 AM Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Re: brain picking time
Ed and all Many thanks for the information from many of you. I realize I will need a preamp. For now I will be content to see what I can hear. As you can guess once I can copy signals I will want to join in. That will require at very least mounting the amp at the antenna and a sequencer. I have seen W0LMD' web site as well as several others. I want to start out slow, before I "lose it". 73 Bob W7LRD
-- "if this were easy, everyone would be doing it"
-------------- Original message -------------- From: Edward Cole kl7uw@acsalaska.net
Domenico,
You said it well. I forgot to mention that polarity sense will reverse upon reflection at the dish surface, so the feed sense should be Rx=RHCP; Tx=LHCP. In other discussions about using a patch for eme, concern has been about sidelobe performance and high power rating of the patch if full QRO eme is considered. Up to 200w it probably is OK.
I assumed that Bob was savy enough about microwave weak-signals to know that on eme a preamp is not a luxury but an absolute necessity. LMR-400 would be fine for connection from the preamp to the receiver in the shack, if at least 15-dB net gain is left after the cable loss is subtracted. More gain is desirable if the receive r NF is high. A preamp of 0.3 dBNF is standard at 1296 for eme.
I have a WD5AGO two-stage preamp with 0.30dBNF and 31-dBgain bought from Radio Astronomy Supply.
73 Ed - KL7UW
At 05:54 PM 8/5/2008, i8cvs wrote:
----- Original Message ----- From: "Edward Cole" To: ; "AMSAT-BB" Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 8:24 AM Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: brain picking time
At 04:35 PM 8/4/2008, w7lrd@comcast.net wrote:
Next question- which probably would be more aimed at a EME bb. I have a 12 foot TVRO I am building a patch feed for 1296, and feed it through 50 feet of LMR400 to my IC-1271A. I want to see if I am able to "hear" EME signals. Of course if I am able to, you can g u ess what my next effort will be. This will be a cheapie effort as I am only using stuff I already have. I do have a KJ6KO L band 70 watt
amp.
73 Bob W7LRD Seattle
Bob,
Is your patch feed circular polar? EME on 1296 is RHCP in transmit and LHCP in receive.
Hi Ed, KL7UW
It is best to specify to Bob that on 1296 MHz the dish in transmit must radiate RHCP in direction of the moon so that the patch or any other feed must radiate LCHP in direction of the surface of the dish.
The switch of polarity sense is due to the fact that reflection at the moon reverses the sense of polarization.
OK So that on receiving the wave coming from the moon is received LHCP
; ; ; ; & gt;over the surface of the dish but the dish reverse by reflection the signal
in direction of the feed that must be made RHCP polarized on receiving.
In addition a TVRO dish works well with a patch feed if the F/D ratio of the dish is ranging from 0.35 to 0.45
might be difficult to achieve with a patch feed.
W0LMD make a patch feed for RHCP and LHCP but never I tested it
Since the target of Bob is to see if he is able to only "hear" EME signals at 1296 MHz without to complicate his life I suggest at the very beginning to build only a patch feed RHCP polarized.
To receive a 1296 EME signal with a 12 foot TVRO and a IC-1271A it is strictly necessary to connect directly to the patch connector a low noise preamplifier with a NF in the order of 0.5 dB
&g t; & gt; ; &g t; >Since the gain of a low noise EME preamplifier for 1296 MHz is
in the order of 30 dB or more then 50 feet of LMR400 connected from the output of the preamplifier up to the input of the IC-1271A will not deteriorate the overall NF of the system that will be only a little bit higher than 0.5 dB
73 Ed - KL7UW
73" de
i8CVS Domenico
Hi Bob, W7LRD
A F/D ratio of 0.375 is ideal for a feed VE4MA with two ports on N connectors one RHCP and the other LHCP.
There is a set of 5 screws in une side of the tube to be adjusted for RHCP and another set of 5 screws to the other side of the tube to be adjusted for LHCP
The screws are fitted longitudinally into a copper tube functioning as a cilindrical wave guide with a cilindrical choke fitted near the open end.
I have built it for 1296 MHz and it works great both for crosspolarization circularity and VSWR
For detailed informations on a VE4MA feed for 1296 MHz look at the VE1ALQ site
http://www.ve1alq.com/dishfeeds/dishfds.htm
73" de
i8CVS Domenico ----- Original Message ----- From: w7lrd@comcast.net To: i8cvs ; Edward Cole ; AMSAT-BB Sent: Saturday, August 09, 2008 9:28 AM Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Re: brain picking time
Hello Domenico & all Thanks for all the information. The measured F/D ratio works out to 0.375, therefore a patch would be appropriate. As mentioned earlier I would be content to just be able to receive EME (for now). For transmitting no doubt a different feed would be needed. Currently I am looking around for a preamp. I built a dual helix feed I am going to use on a four foot primestar off center dish. I used to receive on AO40 (sobsob) with a 3731AA downconverter. This same system will be used for transmitting (L band) on our next HEO. Maybe by planning and working toward the next HEO will generate more intense drive by all concerned. I can mount the 70 watt amp behind the 12 foot TVRO as suggested. Could a short helix be used for receive on the big dish? They are easier to build as opposed to a patch. All this work (fun) will help fill the void untill the next HEO. Fr om what I am reading on the BB I could be at this for a long time. Any additional information would be helpfull, perhaps others can get something out of this. I have some pictures of the dish, dual helix I can send upon request. 73 Bob W7LRD Seattle
-- "if this were easy, everyone would be doing it"
-------------- Original message -------------- From: "i8cvs" domenico.i8cvs@tin.it
Hi Bob, W7LRD
Before to start anyting you must to know the F/D ratio of your dish because this parameter will tell you if a patch as a feed is suitable or not for it.
If your TVRO dish is a prime focus dish to measure the F/D ratio is very easy
Put your dish horizontal on the ground looking up 90 degrees and strain a rope passing just through the center of the mouth and measure the diameter D
Measure the depth of the dish just from the center of the mouth between the rope and the bottom of the dish and call the deepth c 2 D D F/D = ----------------- and the focal point F = -------------- from the bottom of the dish 16 x c 16 x c
If the F/D ratio is less than 0.5 then a patch can be used but if F/D is greater then 0.5 then a patch is not suitable.
By the way a patch as a feed is not used at all for EME because there are type of specialized feed that are much and much better.
If the F/D ratio is less of 0.5 then a VE4MA feed can be used and if the F/D ratio is greater of 0,5 then a dual mode dish W2IMU must be used.
Both VE4MA and W2IMU are dual port feeds one the LHCP is used to transmit and the other one the RHCP is used to receive.
Waiting for P3E and depending of the F/D ratio of a 5 meter dish that I plan to build for 1296 MHz EME I have already built both a VE4MA and a W2IMU feeds in order to be prepared for EME in the future because unfortunately the future seems to be not bright for the HEO satellites.
73" de
i8CVS Domenico
----- Original Message ----- From: w7lrd@comcast.net To: Edward Cole ; i8cvs ; AMSAT-BB Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2008 7:39 AM Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Re: brain picking time
Ed and all Many thanks for the information from many of you. I realize I will need a preamp. For now I will be content to see what I can hear. As you can guess once I can copy signals I will want to join in. That will require at very least mounting the amp at the antenna and a sequencer. I have seen W0LMD' web site as well as several others. I want to start out slow, before I "lose it". 73 Bob W7LRD
-- "if this were easy, everyone would be doing it"
-------------- Original message -------------- From: Edward Cole kl7uw@acsalaska.net
> Domenico, > > You said it well. I forgot to mention that polarity sense will > reverse upon reflection at the dish surface, so the feed sense should > be Rx=RHCP; Tx=LHCP. In other discussions about using a patch for > eme, concern has been about sidelobe performance and high power > rating of the patch if full QRO eme is considered. Up to 200w it > probably is OK. > > I assumed that Bob was savy enough about microwave weak-signals to > know that on eme a preamp is not a luxury but an absolute > necessity. LMR-400 would be fine for connection from the preamp to > the receiver in the shack, if at least 15-dB net gain is left after > the cable loss is subtracted. More gain is desirable if the receive r > NF is high. A preamp of 0.3 dBNF is standard at 1296 for eme. > > I have a WD5AGO two-stage preamp with 0.30dBNF and 31-dBgain bought > from Radio Astronomy Supply. > > 73 Ed - KL7UW > > At 05:54 PM 8/5/2008, i8cvs wrote: > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "Edward Cole" > >To: ; "AMSAT-BB" > >Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 8:24 AM > >Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: brain picking time > > > >At 04:35 PM 8/4/2008, w7lrd@comcast.net wrote: > > > > >Next question- which probably would be more aimed at a EME bb. I > > >have a 12 foot TVRO I am building a patch feed for 1296, and feed it > > >through 50 feet of LMR400 to my IC-1271A. I want to see if I am > > >able to "hear" EME signals. Of course if I am able to, you can > > >g u ess what my next effort will be. This will be a cheapie effort as > > >I am only using stuff I already have. I do have a KJ6KO L band 70 watt > >amp. > > >73 Bob W7LRD > > >Seattle > > > > > Bob, > > > > > > Is your patch feed circular polar? EME on 1296 is RHCP in transmit > > > and LHCP in receive. > > > >Hi Ed, KL7UW > > > >It is best to specify to Bob that on 1296 MHz the dish in transmit must > >radiate RHCP in direction of the moon so that the patch or any other > >feed must radiate LCHP in direction of the surface of the dish. > > > > > The switch of polarity sense is due to the fact > > > that reflection at the moon reverses the sense of polarization. > > > >OK > >So that on receiving the wave coming from the moon is received LHCP > ; ; ; ; ; & gt;over the surface of the dish but the dish reverse by reflection the signal > >in direction of the feed that must be made RHCP polarized on receiving. > > > >In addition a TVRO dish works well with a patch feed if the F/D ratio of > >the dish is ranging from 0.35 to 0.45 > > > > > might be difficult to achieve with a patch feed. > > > >W0LMD make a patch feed for RHCP and LHCP but never I tested it > > > >Since the target of Bob is to see if he is able to only "hear" EME signals > >at 1296 MHz without to complicate his life I suggest at the very beginning > >to build only a patch feed RHCP polarized. > > > >To receive a 1296 EME signal with a 12 foot TVRO and a IC-1271A > >it is strictly necessary to connect directly to the patch connector a low > >noise preamplifier with a NF in the order of 0.5 dB &g t; & gt; ; &g t; >Since the gain of a low noise EME preamplifier for 1296 MHz is > >in the order of 30 dB or more then 50 feet of LMR400 connected from > >the output of the preamplifier up to the input of the IC-1271A will not > >deteriorate the overall NF of the system that will be only a little bit > >higher than 0.5 dB > > > > > 73 Ed - KL7UW > > > >73" de > > > >i8CVS Domenico >
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