That's right too. The 'nerds' are still with us, just that percentage-wise they are fewer. IMHO and in the opinion of others in this discussion, we need to get away from rag chewing and into making the hobby a way for new information to be shared. Humans need 'newness' and that's what we need to spark the younger generation.

Someone earlier mentioned that cost is a problem to entry and that's why the hobby has shifted to an upwards age. Right on. That could change if we get involved at the school level, do science (at least data analysis), and look for ways to share things. Americans in general don't like to share, but we must overcome that aversion and build antennas, access points and such and then have real 'work' being done; the kids will follow that. They love remote robotics, imaging challenges and things like that.

We can build hobby 'access points' so that anyone could internet in and catch a satellite transmission. Receive only, of course. Most colleges and some HS have large dishes from years past and they are free for the taking. I'm building a 3m dish into an access point and allowing students to connect and watch the satellite data stream. MANY groups are working things like this; Delphi via RASCAL software is one example we could follow.

Besides, what's the *real* difference between an access point for internet that the kids love, and a Field Day?

Mark Spencer from ARRL is in charge of the Teacher's Institute. He teaches about 'wireless' technology and now, in a stroke of genius, also has a segment on robotics. If we build a program so that it reaches the teachers and is about science -like imaging, data extraction, etc- we'll come back because it will be a challenge to do again. Getting them into helping us build an 'access point' will do this, as will sharing satellite data/information and not rag chewing.

The vision is simple; AMSAT sponsors a series of antennas located at colleges or someone's yard/community location, with slew capability, manned by AMSAT volunteers, receiving data and images from the ASMO program, making software free, allowing anyone with an internet connection to watch. Kids join because they want to be the ones with the hands on the controls (i.e. antenna slew controls) , using math and science to calculate things, and watching and interfacing with data/image streams. It will work. At least I think it will and I'm putting my energy into it.

Otherwise AMSAT and all other hobbies will be mired in an older age. Literally. And what will AMSAT be then?

----- Original Message ----- From: "Edward Cole" [email protected] To: [email protected] Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 12:20 AM Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Vanishing Hams

An interesting viewpoint. You may have hit on a change in how people are coming to ham radio. Many of us did get our start as teenagers and I did have the challenges you mention. I have had periods of more or less activity; more or less time/money for it. I wonder how old you were when you became a ham 28-years ago? Are you an example of your theory?

But the statistics do show a decline in total numbers in the US and the average age is advancing steadily which does seem to imply that we are lacking a regular influx of younger newcomers to replace the OM's (we are really resembling that).

But perhaps the demographics are shifting to this becoming a retirement hobby vs a life-long one. Time will tell!

Ed - KL7UW

At 07:35 AM 7/16/2008, John Geiger wrote:

...

I was licensed in 1980 and I have been hearing how ham radio is dying for the past 28 years. So far, it is still here and doing better than ever. Over these 28 years, this dying hobby that is in danger of losing all of its frequencies had been given 5 new bands (60m, 30m, 17, 12m, and 33cm) and has lost small parts of 2 bands (220-222mhz and 1215-1240mhz). We adjusted very well to those loses.

One reason we may not see as many young hams at hamfests is due to the internet. Those of us pre-Algore-internet invention hams relied on hamfests to buy and sell equipment and see new rigs. That is no longer needed as you have ebay, QTH.COM, eham.net, and QRZ.COM as 24 hour a day hamfests where you don't have to pay $4 a gallon for gas, plus extra for unhealthy hamfest food. They don't appreciate hamfests because they really don't need them as we do.

Also, we have seemed to sink into this mentality that everyone gets licensed as a kid and stays licensed there entire life. Therefore, if you don't see many young hams, it means that no one is becoming a ham and we are losing operators. Untrue! Many people get licensed as a retirement hobby or empty nest syndrome hobby. These are perfect people to market the hobby to. They have plenty of disposible income to spend on the hobby and lots of time to operate.

As someone who was licensed at age 13, there are somethings that suck about being a young ham. You don't have much money to spend on rigs and antennas. You live in your parent's house so you are at their mercy for what antennas you can put up. You have school and homework to compete for your time. You go to college which greatly limits funds and time, and then you go into the raising a family (I am there now) which greatly limits funds again, as well as operating time.

So, I think the hobby is doing just fine. We just need to get over this obsession that only kids should become new hams. In my area most of the new licensees are 40 or over, but we are bringing in plenty to replace those who become SKs.

73s John AA5JG

----- Original Message ----- From: [email protected] To: [email protected] Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2008 2:52 PM Subject: [amsat-bb] Vanishing Hams

...

Hi All,

I read the article yesterday that Frank had referred to and forwarded it

to

...

a few friends.

...

...

...

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I received this URL today. Read number 16.

_http://www.walletpop.com/specials/top-25-things-vanishing-from-america?i_ (http://www.walletpop.com/specials/top-25-things-vanishing-from-america?i) cid=100214839x1205495530x1200282778

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Every time I go to an annual swapfest, the average age of attendees is one year older. We need to spend some time reaching out to a younger

generation or

...

#16 on the list will come true.

Many years ago, it was in the national interest to have a cadre of

trained

...

radio operators. Today, with CB, Cell Phones, cordless phones, FRS,

etc. --

...

everyone is a radio operator. Now, military communications is done with a keyboard or microphone -- pretty much universal skills now.

As the article mentions, the airwaves are valuable property and we could lose them. Although the Amateur Radio Community shines when there is loss

of

...

communications during a disaster, with newer technology, even that could

change.

...

A few years ago at the 2002 AMSAT meeting in Ft. Worth, Tony, AA2TX was giving a talk on his antennas made from cardboard boxes and aluminum

foil. There

...

was a grade school class in attendance with their teacher. When the talk was over, the kids swarmed over the boxes and aluminum foil to make

antennas

...

with great enthusiasm. Very inspiring -- this is the kind of reaching

out we

...

need.

Instead of our self serving pursuit of DXCC, WAS, VUCC, WAC and others, maybe the ARRL needs to sponsor an award for bringing new Hams into the community. Otherwise, someday, no one will remember what those letters

even stood for.

...

73 & TNX,

Bob K5GNA

**************Get the scoop on last night's hottest shows and the live

music

...

scene in your area - Check out TourTracker.com! (http://www.tourtracker.com?NCID=aolmus00050000000112) _______________________________________________ Sent via [email protected]. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb

---

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At 05:03 AM 7/17/2008, Robert Bruninga wrote:

Do not overlook how kids use key-pad text-messaging as the greatest revolution in communications of all time... Even some old-fud adults are learning how to use it..

I've been a text user for many years on the phone. It arrived here around 10 years ago, though it wasn't readily accessible until around 2001 when the phone networks started opening up the service for general use.

Then consider that APRS has had global text-messaging (and email) via the keypad of the D7 and D700 radios for over 10 years now, yet how many old-fuds ever even considered using it or introduced this exciting new capability to their kids?

That was like packet, when we were in chat rooms back around 1991, long before the Internet was common outside of universities here. :) However, for me, the weakness of APRS is the lack of manufacturer support, with only one model of HT and mobile radio supporting it, and relatively expensive at that. :( The Kenwood has been tempting, but not compelling enough, and you still have to hook up an outboard GPS, if you want to use the positioning reporting feature.

If I was to get into APRS, I would need integrated APRS support (the Kenwood D7 is a good start), D-STAR/D-PRS capability (so I can do both in the one radio), and either internal GPS or a Bluetooth interface, so I can use a Bluetooth GPS with the radio (I already have 2 Bluetooth capable GPS units), because the thing I need to avoid like the plague is interconnecting cables, and by using Bluetooth, I can put the GPS in the iPod pouch that many backpacks provide these days.

As for text messaging, keypad support for this for when operating portable, with optional interface to connect a PC (I have an EeePC, which is a nice size), for when one is stationary and wants a full keyboard.

You can even send text-messages or emails from your HT or Radio from anywhere on earth via any of the APRS satellites (ISS, GO-32, PCSAT-1, etc)... We even suggested that everyone should learn how to do this and exercise it during Satellite-Simulated-Emergency-Tests. You can even use any old TNC and any old radio to do this. See: http://www.ew.usna.edu/~bruninga/sset.html

Satellite APRS is certainly something that's quite useful, Over here, I can see use for camping trips in remote areas to keep in touch. It's not hard to go beyond useful VHF and phone coverage here (just take a 2 hour drive from any of the capital cities, in many cases, less, and of course 20 mins from smaller centres). Once there, HF is the mainstay of amateur communications. Many towns have a VHF repeater, but just try raising a local on it! Satellite APRS is certainly an alternative to consider.

What is hard in ham radio is "change". We basically have to wait for some ops to die in order for some new things to be tried and to take hold...

Either that or "shock tactics", where a small, but determined group gain a foothold, and bring something new in and seed the initial popularity. That happened with IRLP down here, 7 years ago, and it seems to be happening with D-STAR right now. APRS didn't gain that "WOW" factor in the same time, it was always seen as a useful niche application. Perhaps a different marketing strategy might have worked better.

A good start might be to sponsor an award for old fuds that try something new... And then show it to a kid... <wink>

Yep.

P.S. Only about 2% of ham radio operators use APRS, and probably only 10% of them (0.2% of all hams) have tried this global text messaging (or email) feature. Yet, even 10 years ago, and ahead of its time we had it in Ham Radio!

Well, I'm a non user at this stage, reasons being:

Equipment - Other than APRS, the D7 wasn't compelling enough at the price. Yes, I wanted one, but I had recently purchased a T81A around that time, and the extra bands were worth more to me at the time. Also, lack of inbuilt GPS or wireless GPS facility (The IC-91AD has the same issue)

For home use (I would like to put up a WX station), the shack is in a highly temporary state, I can only run HTs and networked applications (e.g. VoIP, local I-Gate) that don't require physical presence in the shack (Yep, HF is a non starter for me too these days). Hope to have that situation resolved by 2009 :)

Being highly voice oriented, I also have to manage conflicts over antenna use (voice usually wins out in the event of a conflict). However, because I have had to support 2 sites for a while, when it all comes together, I'm going to have spare antennas that I can put data applications on. :) APRS will play fairly nicely at home, due to the extremely low duty cycle. I also have kept a TNC, so have the gear (at least for 1200 bps). For 2009, I do want to expand the data side of my operation, on both HF and VHF/UHF, at least in the shack. Portable is going to be a MUCH bigger challenge, because no data mode (other than APRS messaging with a D7 - but I can't justify a D7) offers the portability of picking up a HT and talking, and that's the level of portability I need.

73 de VK3JED http://vkradio.com

At 08:22 AM 7/17/2008, Robert Bruninga wrote:

Continuing in the light of

...

...

Then consider that APRS has had global text- messaging (and email) via the keypad of the D7 and D700 radios for over 10 years now...

...

... the weakness of APRS is the lack of manufacturers...

More coming... D7, D700, D710, now Yeasu VX-8R and some DSTAR GPS TX support...

That's good to see. I'll probably go the D-STAR route, given I have gear for that.

...

... I would need integrated APRS support, D-STAR/D-PRS capability (so I can do both in the one radio),

I sure hope we can work this out. The DSTAR radio has a display and D-PRS has defined the translations between DSTAR and APRS... So it is all in work...

That would be good. It makes sense to combine the two systems into a common data set with different access protocols (D-STAR vs AX.25/APRS). Initially, I would be likely to access it via D-STAR when portable.

Because too many people only see it as a vehicle tracking system (TX-ing GPS data) instead of the original intent (Receiving and

Yes, it was promoted that way, and in some situations, that is a useful function (obviously, not so much for home stations! :D ). That data is more useful for location based services (see below).

displaying all surrounding local information to the mobile operator)... Think "tiny-web-pages" on the front panel of the radio showing satellites in view(now), freqs, doppler, local voice freq, local Echolink freq, local IRLP freq, club meetings, net times. A veritable resource of everything a traveler would need to know when he entered an area...

That is certainly the way to go, when combined with a query based mechanism, which I believe you defined for that purpose.

...

Also, lack of inbuilt GPS or wireless GPS

In most APRS applications, and especially in satellite operations, few people need a GPS unless they are lost or cannot read a map. No one cares exactly where most people are, just approximately, and that is why APRS provides for 1, 10 and 60 mile ambiguity. For satellite use, just set your 10 mile position, so people can see what city and gridsquare you are in, and don't bother with the GPS..

Well, in lesser populated areas, that's true, here in town, there are some applications where more precise positioning is helpful. Satellite is usually an exception, because the distances involved mean accuracy of position is not an issue. For my portable wanderings, I would also need a GPS simply because it can automatically update my position (regardless of accuracy desired). I don't do well manually monitoring and updating. :)

...

For home use...

APRS is more of an information resource display system for the mobile operator. Not much needed in the shack in competition with the WWW. Its value is in the display to the mobile operator of everything going on around him in HAM radio. Though this does need home stations and active stations that are actually doing something, to post those real time objects, events, and bulletins on APRS for others...

I can see that would be the useful side of the technology. Certainly often get the issue of the nearest IRLP, Echolink system, radio club, etc.

...

I can only run HTs and networked applications (e.g. VoIP, local I-Gate) that don't require physical presence in the shack...

Which is why APRS as an info display system in the mobile is so valuable... Its where we spend a lot of our time with not much else to do but sit in traffic... Now when I drive into a new area, the APRS radio displays the locally recommended voice frequency/tone there and this alone makes ham radio so much more useful when traveling...

Well, I tend to sit on trains myself, these days - and that's why a mobile-centric system has severe limitations. I have to be _much_ more mobile than that. As an information consumer, APRS has some potential benefits (though in a familiar area, the info is usually remembered anyway). As a source of traffic, messaging, etc, it has potential, though I have full mobile IM capabilities anyway at no extra cost. For position dependent information (e.g. IRLP nodes in an unfamiliar area), then I do need the GPS - not for accuracy, but for automated updating of the system, because manual updating for me is going to be unreliable.

I agree though, this is where APRS has real power, as a mobile information resource that is able to serve up location based information (now THAT is something that's only just starting in the commercial world - ahead of the curve again). Messaging with mobile hams is also a function that I see as potentially useful, but for that to happen, we need more people with APRS capability, and using it in their daily lives, so there's a high probability that a message sent will be received and acted upon.

73 de VK3JED http://vkradio.com

Bob,

Over the past 43 years as a ham and Electrical Engineer (and Computer Scientist) I have tried about everything I can think of to interest kids in ham radio. My conclusion is that we need to direct ham radio toward the 40 to 70 year olds who are less interested in the tech end of it and more interested in the people end of it.

I can be counted as one of your "10% who have tried APRS".

In the 10+ years i have been listening to you champion APRS, I have yet to find a single use for it. Lets see, here in SoCAL I can get the weather report from a dozen or so APRS stations in the LA basin. I can get a better WX report by either listening to NOAA on a radio or by logging on to the web. With APRS I can see the position of several dozen ham stations in the SoCAL basin - so what? Of what use is this information? Finally I can use APRS to send text messages - again so what?

APRS, like ham radio, is a low tech solution looking for a problem. Technology passed APRS and Packet radio by 10 years ago. The cell phone did the same thing for FM and repeaters. 10 years ago you could not find a free repeater to talk on in SoCAL at drive time. Now, you can not find anyone to talk to on a repeater at drive time. Hams were among the first to realize that the cell phone was a heck of a lot faster and more reliable during a road side emergency verses trying to make an autopatch call . Thus, the attraction to getting a license and using a repeater disappeared just as the reason for Packet radio disappeared. Finally, APRS and its derivatives are fighting a basic problem - the bandwidth is too low to allow adequate data rates. 56k baud modems put an end to Packet radio 10 years ago. Until you employ a scheme similar to ADSL, you are limited by the bandwidth of a single fm channel. There are FM channels set aside for hi speed wide band comm. However, your competition, the commercial carriers have you beat on price, availability, and reliability. More over, they have the the cost economies brought about by a tremendous number of users.

The kids you are trying to impress with ham radio in general and APRS in specific just roll their eyes and go back to their iPhones and PC's. After all, ham radio is another name for AMATEUR radio. The world is no longer impressed with amateur solutions to Telecommunications just as it is no longer impressed with using horses for basic transportation.

Tim AA6DQ

From: [email protected] To: [email protected]; [email protected] Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 15:03:21 -0400 Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Vanishing Hams

...

Today, with CB, Cell Phones, cordless phones, FRS, etc. -- everyone is a radio operator. Now, military communications is done with a keyboard or microphone -- pretty much universal skills now.

Do not overlook how kids use key-pad text-messaging as the greatest revolution in communications of all time... Even some old-fud adults are learning how to use it..

Then consider that APRS has had global text-messaging (and email) via the keypad of the D7 and D700 radios for over 10 years now, yet how many old-fuds ever even considered using it or introduced this exciting new capability to their kids?

You can even send text-messages or emails from your HT or Radio from anywhere on earth via any of the APRS satellites (ISS, GO-32, PCSAT-1, etc)... We even suggested that everyone should learn how to do this and exercise it during Satellite-Simulated-Emergency-Tests. You can even use any old TNC and any old radio to do this. See: http://www.ew.usna.edu/~bruninga/sset.html

...

Although the Amateur Radio Community shines when there is loss of communications during a disaster, with newer technology, even that could change.

What is hard in ham radio is "change". We basically have to wait for some ops to die in order for some new things to be tried and to take hold...

...

Maybe the ARRL needs to sponsor an award for bringing new Hams into the community. Otherwise, someday, no one will remember what those letters even stood for.

A good start might be to sponsor an award for old fuds that try something new... And then show it to a kid... <wink>

P.S. Only about 2% of ham radio operators use APRS, and probably only 10% of them (0.2% of all hams) have tried this global text messaging (or email) feature. Yet, even 10 years ago, and ahead of its time we had it in Ham Radio!

...

From an old fud..

Bob, WB4APR

---

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_________________________________________________________________ Stay in touch when you're away with Windows Live Messenger. http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_messeng...

My conclusion is that we need to direct ham radio toward the 40 to 70 year olds who are less interested in the tech end of it and more interested in the people end of it.

Amen! We need to get people talking to each other..

APRS, ... I have yet to find a single use for it. APRS, like ham radio, is a low tech solution looking for a problem.

Not really. It is a single information resource channel that links people together so they can find each other in the vast dimensions of position/time/frequency domains. On the front panel of your APRS radio you can see everything in ham radio happening around you no matter where you are.

Technology passed APRS and Packet radio 10 years ago... APRS... are fighting bandwidth [and rates] too low...

No, APRS has plenty of bandwidth. It is not trying to be the be-all-end-all data channel that everyone gets on their cell phone. It is the single resource info channel where each person gets to beacon his present activity in his one-second of air time to show what he is doing right now, here, on ham radio. APRS is not an end in itself. It is the common resource channel where people announce what they are doing elsewhere in ham radio so others can be alerted and join him if interested, in time, position, and frequency..

However, your competition, the commercial carriers have you beat on price, availability, and reliability.

If people are thinking ham radio is in competition with cellphones, I think they miss the hobby. We do it for fun. And APRS lets us see who is nearby in RF range and what they are doing and what freq they are on so we can find each other...

The world is no longer impressed with amateur solutions to Telecommunications just as it is no longer impressed with using horses for basic transportation.

Im sorry you have such a bleak view of the amateur radio hobby. Those who see amateur radio as being in competition with commercial giants simply are missing the hobby completely... Just get a cell phone and Iphone, pay your bills and be an almost-happy consumer. Such consumers are never happy, because there is always the next gimic around the corner.. Lots of folks like to ride horses. Getting there in their case is not about beating a car. Its about the ride...

So think of APRS as a single continent wide channel to find like minded people doing something in real time and showing where they are, what they are doing, and what frequency they are monitoring. APRS shrinks all the dimensions of unknowns and helps people find each other.... As you say, to talk and share the hobby..

See http://www.ew.usna.edu/~bruninga/localinfo.html

Bob, WB4APR

...

From: [email protected] To: [email protected]; [email protected] Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 15:03:21 -0400 Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Vanishing Hams

...

Today, with CB, Cell Phones, cordless phones, FRS, etc. --

...

...

everyone is a radio operator. Now, military communications

...

...

is done with a keyboard or microphone -- pretty much universal skills now.

Do not overlook how kids use key-pad text-messaging as the greatest revolution in communications of all time... Even

some

...

old-fud adults are learning how to use it..

Then consider that APRS has had global text-messaging (and email) via the keypad of the D7 and D700 radios for over 10 years now, yet how many old-fuds ever even considered using

it

...

or introduced this exciting new capability to their kids?

You can even send text-messages or emails from your HT or

Radio

...

from anywhere on earth via any of the APRS satellites (ISS, GO-32, PCSAT-1, etc)... We even suggested that everyone

should

...

learn how to do this and exercise it during Satellite-Simulated-Emergency-Tests. You can even use any

old

...

TNC and any old radio to do this. See: http://www.ew.usna.edu/~bruninga/sset.html

...

Although the Amateur Radio Community shines when there is loss of communications during a disaster, with newer technology, even that could change.

What is hard in ham radio is "change". We basically have to wait for some ops to die in order for some new things to be tried and to take hold...

...

Maybe the ARRL needs to sponsor an award for bringing new Hams into the community. Otherwise, someday, no one will remember what those letters even stood for.

A good start might be to sponsor an award for old fuds that

try

...

something new... And then show it to a kid... <wink>

P.S. Only about 2% of ham radio operators use APRS, and probably only 10% of them (0.2% of all hams) have tried this global text messaging (or email) feature. Yet, even 10

years

...

ago, and ahead of its time we had it in Ham Radio!

...

From an old fud..

Bob, WB4APR

---

Sent via [email protected]. Opinions expressed are those

of the author.

...

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satellite program!

...

Subscription settings:

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________________________________________________________________ _

Stay in touch when you're away with Windows Live Messenger. http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TA GLM_WL_messenger2_072008 _______________________________________________ Sent via [email protected]. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings:

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Amateur Radio Operators are more than operators, they have the skills to keep thier equipment working and find inovative ways to remain on the air in times of emergency.

Our youth of today have become operators of electronic toys for thier own self amusment. The wanting to learn about things technical is considered anti-social by today's youth.

Either there will be a swing in attitude or we will be entering another dark age. The efforts of some 60 e mails I received on this subject tonight could have been better spent on construction of a new antenna or?

Art, KC6UQH ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Bruninga" [email protected] To: [email protected]; [email protected] Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2008 12:03 PM Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Vanishing Hams

...

Today, with CB, Cell Phones, cordless phones, FRS, etc. -- everyone is a radio operator. Now, military communications is done with a keyboard or microphone -- pretty much universal skills now.

Do not overlook how kids use key-pad text-messaging as the greatest revolution in communications of all time... Even some old-fud adults are learning how to use it..

Then consider that APRS has had global text-messaging (and email) via the keypad of the D7 and D700 radios for over 10 years now, yet how many old-fuds ever even considered using it or introduced this exciting new capability to their kids?

You can even send text-messages or emails from your HT or Radio from anywhere on earth via any of the APRS satellites (ISS, GO-32, PCSAT-1, etc)... We even suggested that everyone should learn how to do this and exercise it during Satellite-Simulated-Emergency-Tests. You can even use any old TNC and any old radio to do this. See: http://www.ew.usna.edu/~bruninga/sset.html

...

Although the Amateur Radio Community shines when there is loss of communications during a disaster, with newer technology, even that could change.

What is hard in ham radio is "change". We basically have to wait for some ops to die in order for some new things to be tried and to take hold...

...

Maybe the ARRL needs to sponsor an award for bringing new Hams into the community. Otherwise, someday, no one will remember what those letters even stood for.

A good start might be to sponsor an award for old fuds that try something new... And then show it to a kid... <wink>

P.S. Only about 2% of ham radio operators use APRS, and probably only 10% of them (0.2% of all hams) have tried this global text messaging (or email) feature. Yet, even 10 years ago, and ahead of its time we had it in Ham Radio!

...

From an old fud..

Bob, WB4APR

---

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And they don't see that as a wide-open opportunity to get involved in it and leave their mark on it in a big way. Which is short-sighted of them, IMHO, but they do let their perception of the "ham radio culture" get in the way of the more fundamental thing, which is free spectrum to experiment with and find new ways to use. The trick is showing them how ham radio poses many of the same challenges they love to tackle on the cutting edge of other sorts of open-source systems, and (with a few exceptions in the seedier parts of some HF bands) the culture is a secondary concern at best ..

On Jul 17, 2008, at 6:38 AM, Ben Jackson wrote:

No, the technology available to youths today has become so pervasive that the majority of non-techies is using it. There are still the geeks and nerds sitting in the back room playing with technological toys, they just into Ham Radio. They think Ham Radio is a technological dead end and a just a bunch of old guys talking to each other about their medical problems. Sadly, for the most part, they're right.

"Almost nothing that trickles down is fit to consume." -- Davidson Loehr

...

Our youth of today have become operators of electronic toys for thier own self amusment.

Two thoughts.

1) If kids are as uninterested as some people say, maybe we should just focus on the 50+ guys who have outgrown the need for instant gratification and want a fun hobby that he has the time and $$$ to do..

2) If you want a group of kids to show radio, consider boy scouts. Most of them soon learn how useless their cell phones are when they are off at camp or in the wilderness. So at least they see that value to ham radio easily...

Bob, Wb4APR

At 09:39 AM 7/18/2008, Alex Perez wrote:

Which will only compound the problem, when they die in the statistically-likely 25-30 years. You're not thinking long-term.

Not if it's an ongoing campaign, there will be more to replace them over the years.

Any serious outdoorsman can benefit from an HT the size of a pack of cigarettes. I take mine with me every time I set foot on a daylong hike. They're also potentially very useful for people who might do extremish things such as sea-kayaking, mountain climbing, etc.

That's for sure, providing there is reasonable coverage, which is certainly often not the case here.

73 de VK3JED http://vkradio.com

Does anyone know if the Icom 2820 is full duplex? I don't think it is , but I would like to hear this from an actual owner of one who has tried it on the sats. My dealer is clueless....

73 Jeff kb2m

At 09:38 PM 7/17/2008, Ben Jackson wrote:

No, the technology available to youths today has become so pervasive that the majority of non-techies is using it. There are still the geeks and nerds sitting in the back room playing with technological toys, they just into Ham Radio. They think Ham Radio is a technological dead end and a just a bunch of old guys talking to each other about their medical problems. Sadly, for the most part, they're right.

Well, that's partly a problem of limited perception on their part, and also a failure of the ham community to market itself as a place for communication experimenters to play and try new things. I for one have learnt a LOT of useful stuff about VoIP technology and managing large networks, as well as having had a lot of fun tinkering with various systems and making a few small contributions back to the hobby. :-)

| The wanting to learn about things technical is considered | anti-social by today's youth.

I think there's always a large part of the population not interested in learning the guts of technology, and there is a certain percentage that lives for that sort of thing, though not a lot of those know the opportunities ham radio has to offer, especially in the software, DSP and digital communications fields, as well as weak signal arena.

Now off to configure Asterisk as a radio node... Another skill set that could be used in industry. ;)

73 de VK3JED http://vkradio.com

I'm fairly sure that for a lot of the mainstream population, having an active interest in technology and technical things has almost always been considered antisocial or at least suspicious. I've never been convinced that that's been particularly good for our society, but that's the attitude. (And, unfortunately, the attitude of a lot of key decision makers of our society as well.) If I could make any single paradigm change I wanted, that would be a strong contender .. my memories of dealing with some of that hostility are particularly bitter.

(The hostility to people who have the ability to self-educate is, if possible, even greater than it is to people who seek out formal education. It seems the pursuit of knowledge for knowledge's sake is seen as some sort of sin by some people.)

On Jul 17, 2008, at 1:10 PM, John B. Stephensen wrote:

Wanting to learn about things technical was considered anti-social in the 1950's and 1960's so that hasn't changed.

73,

John KD6OZH

"No nation was ever so virtuous as each believes itself, and none was ever so wicked as each believes the other." -- Bertrand Russell

Hi Ed-

Interesting point-of-view. I am a "younger ham" (e.g. 33 years old) and I have been around since I was 17. What got me involved was a club reaching out to the youth, and making them interested in the value of the hobby.

The current amateur clubs and organizations I am with that actually DO reach-out to the youth population are usually successful at generating interest. I do what I can to reach into the university clubs, and go to events that have younger people, especially if there is a science/engineering "twist" to the event.

The great thing is, at the same time I am trying to mentor younger folks, I am still being mentored by great guys (AJ6T, AD6IW, and yourself included through emails and your public works). There is so much collective knowledge out there!

73,

Dave AF6KD (ex n0tgd)

On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 11:09 PM, Edward Cole [email protected] wrote:

I do believe (hope) that ham radio continues for the remainder of my lifetime as it has been central in my life interest (both hobby and profession). Another 20-30 years? Or will quantum communicators obsolete us in a shorter time span?

Dave,

That's good to hear about. Certainly there are younger folks still entering ham radio (great) but how many? The younger hams like you have a better chance of relating to college age, teens, and younger than mid-60 year olds like me (there will be exceptions. of course). This nothing new.

I think ham radio has somehow lost generally reaching out to newcomers at all ages. I'm sure that for many hams, reaching senior years comes less energy. But I have also found that a "newcomer" of any age is the most enthusiastic. Some the best teachers were recent students (they can remember what they struggled with in learning the subject). Likewise newcomers just relate better than someone who has had half a century at it (enthusiam sells more than knowledge).

Satellite should rank right in with the digital, dsp, psk-31, aprs, innovators. Please add microwavers, eme'ers and qrpers to the active technical group. The reason that it appears that there is no innovation going on in ham radio is more due to lack of advertising by those special groups...they are having too much fun doing.

Satellites are probably the most visible technical group in ham radio! Its important that it continues to excite!

73 Ed - KL7UW

At 08:15 AM 7/17/2008, Dave hartzell wrote:

Hi Ed-

Interesting point-of-view. I am a "younger ham" (e.g. 33 years old) and I have been around since I was 17. What got me involved was a club reaching out to the youth, and making them interested in the value of the hobby.

The current amateur clubs and organizations I am with that actually DO reach-out to the youth population are usually successful at generating interest. I do what I can to reach into the university clubs, and go to events that have younger people, especially if there is a science/engineering "twist" to the event.

The great thing is, at the same time I am trying to mentor younger folks, I am still being mentored by great guys (AJ6T, AD6IW, and yourself included through emails and your public works). There is so much collective knowledge out there!

73,

Dave AF6KD (ex n0tgd)

On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 11:09 PM, Edward Cole [email protected] wrote:

...

I do believe (hope) that ham radio continues for the remainder of my lifetime as it has been central in my life interest (both hobby and profession). Another 20-30 years? Or will quantum communicators obsolete us in a shorter time span?

Simon,

Notice I said "Visible". I will not argue on who is most active. When you attend a hamfest there is almost always a Satellite Booth or demo. Amsat has become a very large and "visible" group both for hams and for the public. Certainly the Emcomm activity of ham radio gets the most press (and perhaps it should). But within the bounds of the technical side of ham radio satellite still ranks with high numbers of visibility (at lot due to ARISS).

Other areas of interest probably are more active right now...that ought to be a wake up to the satellite segment. When I say satellite "should" rank that is also commenting that perhaps it isn't curently measuring up (most of the innovation is being done at the organizational level and not in the shacks of the average satellite operator - oh boy! now I have probably steps on alot folks pride - but think about how much construction is done? - other than hooking up cables and installing sw).

I am into microwave, eme, sdr's, radio astronomy...and lately into 500-KHz. All these activites require basic building and testing, as that is (about) the only way you will get stuff for these areas of interest. The Leo sats (FM voice) does not require much more than the HT or mobile radio to get on. Satellite tracking hardware abounds and is pretty easy to install. Digital satellite is probably much more technical and requires a bit more in the manner of putting together a system.

Now I am not saying that this is a bad thing, but as an area of "technical" advance in ham radio it is left to the satellite builders ,in the main. The technical contributions are coming from other technical areas of interest and being applied to satellites (e.g. GPS diciplined local oscillators and SDX). The computer control system is largely not an activity that the average satellite user is active in (its a few specialist on the satellite developer's team and draw from areas like TAPR, etc.).

So I don't think we are in disagreement (significantly) ;-)

73 Ed - KL7UW

At 11:40 PM 7/17/2008, Simon Brown (HB9DRV) wrote:

---

From: "Edward Cole" [email protected]

...

Satellite should rank right in with the digital, dsp, psk-31, aprs, innovators. Please add microwavers, eme'ers and qrpers to the active technical group. The reason that it appears that there is no innovation going on in ham radio is more due to lack of advertising by those special groups...they are having too much fun doing.

Satellites are probably the most visible technical group in ham radio! Its important that it continues to excite!

I would argue that digital mode developers / users and digital emergency comms groups are more active. As for advertising - I see more 'noise' from digital groups than satellite groups, but at the moment there's not an enormous amount of original development going on in the Ham satellite arena although there is more than enough to spark interest.

Add in the fans of weather satellites and similar who use David Taylor's programs and you're probably talking similar levels of interest.

On the other hand you can get going with almost all digital most for $100 or less (as long as you have a computer). Satellite operation to the same level is more expensive. FWIW over 50,000 distinct calls have been seen on digital modes over the last six months, see http://psk.gladstonefamily.net/cgi-bin/pskstats.pl .

Now back to the coding...

Simon HB9DRV

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