Re: A considerate operating practice on FM (one channel) satellites, Europe take 2
Hi all, Thanks for the many positive replies.
More than one says that it would be a good idea to have the article translated for the different national magazines in Europe. Tonight I will update the article and hope that at least one radio amateur in each European country will volunteer to translate from my English to the necessary language - and try to get it in the national magazine. Just send me an e-mail direct and you will get the article.
The offer is not limited to Europe :-)
By the way I like the FM satellites and use them.
73 OZ1MY Ib
There are -worlds- of difference when we try to make rules for satellite operations.
For example, using the BBS on ISS. It is extremely inefficient to attempt to logon to this BBS over Europe and the USA since it blocks other users from the more efficient digipeater mode designed for those high density areas.
However, a station in Hawaii, surrounded by 16 million square miles of ocean has virtually unlimited access. Similarly, some stations in South Africa, Australia/New Zealand, South America and others may be able to make practical use of it, with out interfereing with anyone.
The GLOBAL map of HAM radio activity is extremely diverse, with probably 95% of the HAM Radio population all sharing only 5% of the footprints of our satelites. Trying to make "rules" without accounting for this 400-to-1 diversity severly limits the utility of our satellites.
I propose that AMSAT endorse a global AMSAT map of "Operational Areas". There are 4 categories:
OA/0 - Isolated. Hawaii, Arctic, Antarctic, South Africa etc OA/A - Area, Regional. (Australia, NZ, Japan? Etc) OA/B - Border (10% footprint overlap into OA/C areas OA/C - Congested. USA, Europe
Then if we ever need to make any flat statements about operations, then it can very clearly be designated as to what operating recommendations apply where.
Further, such a map would help educate the satellite user about orbital geometry and network planning. It would also encourage better use of our satellites over remote areas where we can actually contribute very well to communications applications.
Any discussion about "operational receommendations" is a waste of time without also identify the area where it applies. This map should be published in ALL amateur radio publications that mention Amateur Satellites. It should be come as common as the callsign maps...
Anyone want to take a crack at drawing the map?
This same map can also overlay the "INTERFERENCE" areas which shows the footprint areas of HIGH QRM from pirates. These shaded areas would also help educate not only our users, but our regulatory bodies as well.
Bob, WB4APR
At 06:18 AM 1/30/2008, Robert Bruninga wrote:
The GLOBAL map of HAM radio activity is extremely diverse, with probably 95% of the HAM Radio population all sharing only 5% of the footprints of our satelites. Trying to make "rules" without accounting for this 400-to-1 diversity severly limits the utility of our satellites.
This is certainly a good point. I'm sure few, if any in the US or Europe have experienced what I have on many occasions - an FM bird to themselves, and I'm also sure they've never had a ragchew on such a satellite. Again, something you can do here, provided overs are kept short (30 sec or less), and decent breaks are left between them for others to break in and use the bird. When I was active, it was an unspoken rule that breaking stations had priority, and any ragchew in progress would stop, until either the breaking station joined the ragchew, or all other activity on the bird had ceased. I certainly don't recall issues with anyone hogging the satellites.
This sort of operation might sound strange to the more congested areas, but it did help newcomers, who hadn't trained themselves to recognise the subtle change in the background noise, to find the downlink - hearing voices is a dead giveaway! :D And of course, frequent invitations for stations to break in were given on air.
I propose that AMSAT endorse a global AMSAT map of "Operational Areas". There are 4 categories:
Good idea.
OA/0 - Isolated. Hawaii, Arctic, Antarctic, South Africa etc
Yep, anything east of New Zealand would certainly qualify here too.
OA/A - Area, Regional. (Australia, NZ, Japan? Etc) OA/B - Border (10% footprint overlap into OA/C areas OA/C - Congested. USA, Europe
Good idea.
Then if we ever need to make any flat statements about operations, then it can very clearly be designated as to what operating recommendations apply where.
Agree here.
Anyone want to take a crack at drawing the map?
I think this should be done as a collaborative project, since each of us has some idea of local satellite activity. I can certainly forward yor idea to the active local operators down here for comment, if yo like.
This same map can also overlay the "INTERFERENCE" areas which shows the footprint areas of HIGH QRM from pirates. These shaded areas would also help educate not only our users, but our regulatory bodies as well.
Again, agreed. :) Also the satellite designers, if the band affected is shown.
73 de VK3JED http://vkradio.com
On Jan 29, 2008, at 1:28 PM, Tony Langdon wrote:
At 06:18 AM 1/30/2008, Robert Bruninga wrote:
The GLOBAL map of HAM radio activity is extremely diverse, with probably 95% of the HAM Radio population all sharing only 5% of the footprints of our satelites. Trying to make "rules" without accounting for this 400-to-1 diversity severly limits the utility of our satellites.
This is certainly a good point. I'm sure few, if any in the US or Europe have experienced what I have on many occasions - an FM bird to themselves, and I'm also sure they've never had a ragchew on such a satellite.
Oh, I dunno Tony -- I've heard some doofuses rag-chewing on AO-51 over the U.S. when ten other stations were semi-patiently waiting during certain passes. It especially seems to happen during the really GOOD passes folks are waiting for (for whatever reason... some rare guy in the middle of nowhere, or a pass that has the right angles for a possible DX shot).
LOL! Pbbbt. (GRIN)
So you're not alone. :-)
-- Nate Duehr, WY0X nate@natetech.com
At 03:47 PM 1/30/2008, Nate Duehr wrote:
Oh, I dunno Tony -- I've heard some doofuses rag-chewing on AO-51 over the U.S. when ten other stations were semi-patiently waiting during certain passes. It especially seems to happen during the really GOOD passes folks are waiting for (for whatever reason... some rare guy in the middle of nowhere, or a pass that has the right angles for a possible DX shot).
Obviously the LID factor is alive and well over there. Here, the main ham problem is the newcomer attempting to work the sats with their base station vertical, fed by 10m or more of RG-213. Since most of the sats are in Mode J, this inevitably results in an alligator that wipes out whoever is on the uplink and can't hear a thing. If I could hear such stations direct, I'd take them to a simplex frequency and give them some pointers, but the odds of them being close enough aren't good. On a couple of occasions, these newcomers rolled up for the next pass with their HTs and worked a couple of stations! :)
73 de VK3JED http://vkradio.com
Tony,
What you describe is what we see in Alaska for 70-90% of a Leo pass. Often I have had 15-min. exclusive use of a Leo as it comes over the N. Pole and descends over Alaska. The end of this the footprint overlaps the Pacific NW and qualifies as OA/B.
I am not active on Leo for some time. My antennas are down awaiting installation on a new short tower. Winter has precluded getting much outside work done. Short daylight hours also interfere.
Ed - KL7UW
At 11:28 AM 1/29/2008, Tony Langdon wrote:
At 06:18 AM 1/30/2008, Robert Bruninga wrote:
The GLOBAL map of HAM radio activity is extremely diverse, with probably 95% of the HAM Radio population all sharing only 5% of the footprints of our satelites. Trying to make "rules" without accounting for this 400-to-1 diversity severly limits the utility of our satellites.
This is certainly a good point. I'm sure few, if any in the US or Europe have experienced what I have on many occasions - an FM bird to themselves, and I'm also sure they've never had a ragchew on such a satellite. Again, something you can do here, provided overs are kept short (30 sec or less), and decent breaks are left between them for others to break in and use the bird. When I was active, it was an unspoken rule that breaking stations had priority, and any ragchew in progress would stop, until either the breaking station joined the ragchew, or all other activity on the bird had ceased. I certainly don't recall issues with anyone hogging the satellites.
This sort of operation might sound strange to the more congested areas, but it did help newcomers, who hadn't trained themselves to recognise the subtle change in the background noise, to find the downlink - hearing voices is a dead giveaway! :D And of course, frequent invitations for stations to break in were given on air.
I propose that AMSAT endorse a global AMSAT map of "Operational Areas". There are 4 categories:
Good idea.
OA/0 - Isolated. Hawaii, Arctic, Antarctic, South Africa etc
Yep, anything east of New Zealand would certainly qualify here too.
OA/A - Area, Regional. (Australia, NZ, Japan? Etc) OA/B - Border (10% footprint overlap into OA/C areas OA/C - Congested. USA, Europe
Good idea.
Then if we ever need to make any flat statements about operations, then it can very clearly be designated as to what operating recommendations apply where.
Agree here.
Anyone want to take a crack at drawing the map?
I think this should be done as a collaborative project, since each of us has some idea of local satellite activity. I can certainly forward yor idea to the active local operators down here for comment, if yo like.
This same map can also overlay the "INTERFERENCE" areas which shows the footprint areas of HIGH QRM from pirates. These shaded areas would also help educate not only our users, but our regulatory bodies as well.
Again, agreed. :) Also the satellite designers, if the band affected is shown.
73 de VK3JED http://vkradio.com
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
73, Ed - KL7UW ====================================== BP40IQ 50-MHz - 10-GHz www.kl7uw.com 144-EME: FT-847, mgf-1801, 4x-xpol-20, 185w DUBUS Magazine USA Rep dubususa@hotmail.com ======================================
At 06:42 PM 1/30/2008, Edward Cole wrote:
Tony,
What you describe is what we see in Alaska for 70-90% of a Leo pass. Often I have had 15-min. exclusive use of a Leo as it comes over the N. Pole and descends over Alaska. The end of this the footprint overlaps the Pacific NW and qualifies as OA/B.
I can imagine up in Alaska, with the low population density up there.
I am not active on Leo for some time. My antennas are down awaiting installation on a new short tower. Winter has precluded getting much outside work done. Short daylight hours also interfere.
Our milder climate makes portable operation the easiest way all year round. Also much cheaper! :)
73 de VK3JED http://vkradio.com
Well, I took a crack at a possible draft Map: http://www.ew.usna.edu/~bruninga/AMSAT/AMSAT-OAs.GIF
I used the minimum distances such as for the ISS. I have no idea about loading over Sibera, India and the Middle East.
Just an idea. Bob, WB4APR
-----Original Message----- From: amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org [mailto:amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org] On Behalf Of Robert
Bruninga
Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2008 2:18 PM To: 'OZ1MY'; 'john heath' Cc: 'AMSAT-BB' Subject: [amsat-bb] AMSAT Operating Areas (OA's)
There are -worlds- of difference when we try to make rules for satellite operations.
For example, using the BBS on ISS. It is extremely
inefficient
to attempt to logon to this BBS over Europe and the USA since
it
blocks other users from the more efficient digipeater mode designed for those high density areas.
However, a station in Hawaii, surrounded by 16 million square miles of ocean has virtually unlimited access. Similarly,
some
stations in South Africa, Australia/New Zealand, South America and others may be able to make practical use of it, with out interfereing with anyone.
The GLOBAL map of HAM radio activity is extremely diverse,
with
probably 95% of the HAM Radio population all sharing only 5%
of
the footprints of our satelites. Trying to make "rules"
without
accounting for this 400-to-1 diversity severly limits the utility of our satellites.
I propose that AMSAT endorse a global AMSAT map of
"Operational
Areas". There are 4 categories:
OA/0 - Isolated. Hawaii, Arctic, Antarctic, South Africa etc OA/A - Area, Regional. (Australia, NZ, Japan? Etc) OA/B - Border (10% footprint overlap into OA/C areas OA/C - Congested. USA, Europe
Then if we ever need to make any flat statements about operations, then it can very clearly be designated as to what operating recommendations apply where.
Further, such a map would help educate the satellite user
about
orbital geometry and network planning. It would also
encourage
better use of our satellites over remote areas where we can actually contribute very well to communications applications.
Any discussion about "operational receommendations" is a waste of time without also identify the area where it applies. This map should be published in ALL amateur radio publications that mention Amateur Satellites. It should be come as common as
the
callsign maps...
Anyone want to take a crack at drawing the map?
This same map can also overlay the "INTERFERENCE" areas which shows the footprint areas of HIGH QRM from pirates. These shaded areas would also help educate not only our users, but
our
regulatory bodies as well.
Bob, WB4APR
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings:
On Wednesday 30 January 2008 08:10, Robert Bruninga wrote:
Well, I took a crack at a possible draft Map: http://www.ew.usna.edu/~bruninga/AMSAT/AMSAT-OAs.GIF
I used the minimum distances such as for the ISS. I have no idea about loading over Sibera, India and the Middle East.
Just an idea. Bob, WB4APR
lots snipped
Many many moons ago there was a piece of software that would take the logs from a PACSAT bbs and a set of orbital elements and generate a usage map. Perhaps this could be useful when it comes to plotting high usage areas. I realize that the current thread refers to ISS and the voice birds but the result could be indicative?
73 de Geoff vk2tfg
At 09:11 AM 1/30/2008, Geoff wrote:
Many many moons ago there was a piece of software that would take the logs from a PACSAT bbs and a set of orbital elements and generate a usage map. Perhaps this could be useful when it comes to plotting high usage areas. I realize that the current thread refers to ISS and the voice birds but the result could be indicative?
I se a potentially fatal assumption here - that the same proportion of users in all areas use the packet and FM birds. I am one that would screw up that assumption. I don't do the pacsats, and I'm not likely to. :) Too many like me, or too many pacsat only users and the results are skewed. In fact, it might be useful to have separate digital and voice maps.
73 de VK3JED http://vkradio.com
On Wednesday 30 January 2008 10:01, Tony Langdon wrote:
At 09:11 AM 1/30/2008, Geoff wrote:
Many many moons ago there was a piece of software that would take the logs from a PACSAT bbs and a set of orbital elements and generate a usage map. Perhaps this could be useful when it comes to plotting high usage areas. I realize that the current thread refers to ISS and the voice birds but the result could be indicative?
I se a potentially fatal assumption here - that the same proportion of users in all areas use the packet and FM birds. I am one that would screw up that assumption. I don't do the pacsats, and I'm not likely to. :) Too many like me, or too many pacsat only users and the results are skewed. In fact, it might be useful to have separate digital and voice maps.
73 de VK3JED http://vkradio.com
Good Point Tony, How about taking the usage log AND a "WOD" plot of satellite S-meter readings and doing AND/OR/NOT comparisons and plotting the results? I can't as I go back to work Monday with an airshow coming up on 24Feb08 (besides my code cutting skills are rudimentary at best).
73 de Geoff vk2tfg.
At 10:49 AM 1/30/2008, Geoff wrote:
How about taking the usage log AND a "WOD" plot ofsatellite S-meter readings and doing AND/OR/NOT comparisons and plotting the results? I can't as I go back to work Monday with an airshow coming up on 24Feb08 (besides my code cutting skills are rudimentary at best).
I think the voice part is going to have to be done manually, otherwise the biggest S meter readings are going to be over Indonesia, and contain ZERO ham activity! ;)
73 de VK3JED http://vkradio.com
Many many moons ago there was a piece of software that would take the logs from a PACSAT bbs and a set of orbital elements and generate a usage map.
Hummh. Actually that could be trivial to do. Since every packet ever transmitted via ISS and received by the www.ariss.net web page is available live on FINDU.COM. And all of the ones that transmitted APRS include their LAT/LONG.
So just a plot of every one of these packets with a radius of 1200 miles and a color density of say 1%. Then sum them on a map. By the time there were 100 in a given area, that area would be solid color...
Then just look at the map color density of the world would reveal the usage density... Wow, what a fun project. Wish I had time...
Bob, WB4APR
At 10:02 AM 1/30/2008, Robert Bruninga wrote:
Many many moons ago there was a piece of software that would take the logs from a PACSAT bbs and a set of orbital elements and generate a usage map.
Hummh. Actually that could be trivial to do. Since every packet ever transmitted via ISS and received by the www.ariss.net web page is available live on FINDU.COM. And all of the ones that transmitted APRS include their LAT/LONG.
Still think the results may be skewed. Would be interesting to compare these maps to ones worked out by voice users, see how the numbers correlate across modes.
73 de VK3JED http://vkradio.com
Hi!
<snipped references to www.ariss.net or FINDU sites>
Still think the results may be skewed. Would be interesting to compare these maps to ones worked out by voice users, see how the numbers correlate across modes.
How about downloading the information posted to http://oscar.dcarr.org/ and parsing through that? KD5QGR just put a new download of the data - more than 54000 records through 16 January 2008, covering a period of more than 4 years. This site covers more than just the ISS or the digital-mode satellites, and - although not a perfect solution - could be useful for this exercise.
73!
Patrick WD9EWK/VA7EWK http://www.wd9ewk.net/
Kenneth - N5VHO
-----Original Message----- From: amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org [mailto:amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org] On Behalf Of Robert Bruninga Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2008 5:02 PM To: 'Geoff'; amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: AMSAT Operating Areas (OA's)
Many many moons ago there was a piece of software that would take the logs from a PACSAT bbs and a set of orbital elements and generate a usage map.
Hummh. Actually that could be trivial to do. Since every packet ever transmitted via ISS and received by the www.ariss.net web page is available live on FINDU.COM. And all of the ones that transmitted APRS include their LAT/LONG.
So just a plot of every one of these packets with a radius of 1200 miles and a color density of say 1%. Then sum them on a map. By the time there were 100 in a given area, that area would be solid color...
Then just look at the map color density of the world would reveal the usage density... Wow, what a fun project. Wish I had time...
Bob, WB4APR
_______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
This mapping scheme using recorded findu data would assume reasonable representation of IGATES listening. Some places only have one minimal IGATE station and it only hears part of the pass. Others may be lacking in the ability to capture the non APRS formatted packets that do get relayed via the orbiting transceiver.
This also does not allow reasonable mapping of interference and in fact could show an area as being rather quiet since many have a harder time getting through.
It would provide confirmation of congestion over areas with significant IGATE population but we already know what is going on there.
Kenneth - N5VHO
-----Original Message----- From: amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org [mailto:amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org] On Behalf Of Robert Bruninga Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2008 5:02 PM To: 'Geoff'; amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: AMSAT Operating Areas (OA's)
Many many moons ago there was a piece of software that would take the logs from a PACSAT bbs and a set of orbital elements and generate a usage map.
Hummh. Actually that could be trivial to do. Since every packet ever transmitted via ISS and received by the www.ariss.net web page is available live on FINDU.COM. And all of the ones that transmitted APRS include their LAT/LONG.
So just a plot of every one of these packets with a radius of 1200 miles and a color density of say 1%. Then sum them on a map. By the time there were 100 in a given area, that area would be solid color...
Then just look at the map color density of the world would reveal the usage density... Wow, what a fun project. Wish I had time...
Bob, WB4APR
_______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Good job, Bob.
I think that the Hamsat folks exploited these differences quite adroitly when they announced that FM was permitted via VO-52 over India, etc., but not over NA. For all our concern about misuse of these resources, *that* human contract has held well. I think future developers should seriously consider it, rather than develop both FM transponders and linear ones in one bird. The last time I brought this up, the stations from India assured me that the FM operation in their part of the world and elsewhere did not overwhelm the power budget of the bird.
Of course, a really fun geeky solution would be to hook up a SDX to GPS and program a LEO bird to switch from FM over Africa to SSB/CW over Europe. You could also modulate the output power, making the bird easier to work with minimal antennas in places where Amsat operations are less common, or over the Arctic, where low-horizon DX is probably the only way a QSO will be made. Kiwisat is flying a GPS; perhaps they have something like this in mind. Or perhaps, 18 years into *its* life they'll give it a go :-)
73, Bruce VE9QRP
On Jan 29, 2008 6:11 PM, Geoff vk2tfg@ozemail.com.au wrote:
On Wednesday 30 January 2008 08:10, Robert Bruninga wrote:
Well, I took a crack at a possible draft Map: http://www.ew.usna.edu/~bruninga/AMSAT/AMSAT-OAs.GIF
I used the minimum distances such as for the ISS. I have no idea about loading over Sibera, India and the Middle East.
Just an idea. Bob, WB4APR
lots snipped
I would like to add the Falkland Islands to the map. Perhaps this would come under the title of "isolated"?
I was very pleased to have been able to get a signal though RS0ISS-4 with ( a broken, damaged in transit ) THD7G and a mini magmount, from Rookery Mountain, West Falklands, the other week.
I only returned to the U.K. last night, so I still haven't checked to see if VP8CLE was gated or not.
73, Dave.
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] AMSAT Operating Areas (OA's)
I would like to add the Falkland Islands to the map. Perhaps this would come under the title of "isolated"?
http://www.ew.usna.edu/~bruninga/AMSAT/AMSAT-OAs.GIF
Glad you got in!
Yes, the map above has the Faulklands and most of the ocean areas in Operating Area 0 (Isolated). Now all we need is someone monitoring 145.825 there and feeding it into an Igate.
I was very pleased to have been able to get a signal though RS0ISS-4 with ( a broken, damaged in transit ) THD7G and a mini magmount, from Rookery Mountain, West Falklands, the other week.
I only returned to the U.K. last night, so I still haven't checked to see if VP8CLE was gated or not.
73, Dave.
participants (10)
-
Bruce Robertson -
Dave Aitch -
Edward Cole -
Geoff -
Nate Duehr -
OZ1MY -
Patrick STODDARD (WD9EWK/VA7EWK) -
Ransom, Kenneth G. (JSC-OC)[BAR] -
Robert Bruninga -
Tony Langdon