Slack vs. eMail -- The medium is the message
Can I suggest moving AMSAT member communications from eMail to Slack?
When I taught at UC Riverside last year - we used Slack to communicate with students. The tech companies I have worked with in Southern California have used Slack for many years. Recently, I noticed the Parrot Disco (RC Glider) club uses Slack to communicate with volunteers and members:
https://github.com/uavpal/disco4g
The benefit to Slack is having channels for each topic. In this case, discussion about Board Membership can be in it's own channel. People who are not interested are not required to read.
Each technology can have it's own channel. Each project can have it's own channel. And, members can find each other easily. This current eMail subscription for all things creates a pain point - encouraging everyone to read everything. I highly recommend the Board of Directors evaluate Slack as a replacement for eMail; the corporate cost per user in low compared to value: excellent ROI. Remember, eMail subscriptions became popular in the 1980s. This protocol is entirely outdated and outmoded for conversations today. Keep in mind, the Medium is the message - another reminder AmSat has become outdated and outmoded and not keeping up with the times. Slack has been a positive and transforming tool employed on many projects I have worked with recently. Sincerely,
Robert MacHale. KE6BLR Ham Radio License. http://www.aprsat.com/predict . http://www.spaceCommunicator.club%C2%A0 . Supporting Boy Scout Merit Badges in Radio, Robotics, and Space Exploration
I disagree regarding the use of Slack instead of email. To wit: “With email you know you probably have time to read through a bunch of messages and have a day to respond,”. (quote from https://www.wired.co.uk/article/slack-ruining-work )
Slack is IM. I'd rather have the AMSAT BB email.
Bob W7OTJ
On Tue, Jul 14, 2020 at 8:01 AM Robert MacHale via AMSAT-BB < amsat-bb@amsat.org> wrote:
Can I suggest moving AMSAT member communications from eMail to Slack?
When I taught at UC Riverside last year - we used Slack to communicate with students. The tech companies I have worked with in Southern California have used Slack for many years. Recently, I noticed the Parrot Disco (RC Glider) club uses Slack to communicate with volunteers and members:
https://github.com/uavpal/disco4g
The benefit to Slack is having channels for each topic. In this case, discussion about Board Membership can be in it's own channel. People who are not interested are not required to read.
Each technology can have it's own channel. Each project can have it's own channel. And, members can find each other easily. This current eMail subscription for all things creates a pain point - encouraging everyone to read everything. I highly recommend the Board of Directors evaluate Slack as a replacement for eMail; the corporate cost per user in low compared to value: excellent ROI. Remember, eMail subscriptions became popular in the 1980s. This protocol is entirely outdated and outmoded for conversations today. Keep in mind, the Medium is the message - another reminder AmSat has become outdated and outmoded and not keeping up with the times. Slack has been a positive and transforming tool employed on many projects I have worked with recently. Sincerely,
Robert MacHale. KE6BLR Ham Radio License. http://www.aprsat.com/predict . http://www.spaceCommunicator.club . Supporting Boy Scout Merit Badges in Radio, Robotics, and Space Exploration
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
In my corporate experience, you need to be very careful with these solutions - -It sounds great at first, but what ends up happening is you create so many sub groups in an effort to cover every interest that you end up with a big splintered environment in which you can’t find anything.
Also, IM solutions like Teams, Slack etc are really trying to solve a different problem. They are great for short sprints, projects, service outages and the like, but the messages tend to be very ephemeral.
We tried this in a few of the car clubs I participate in, and the people who suffer the most are casual visitors. They read digests, or just browse the list a few times a month and they get caught up.
In an IM environment, it seems that you have to be on it every day or else things get lost in the sands of time.
We run a hybrid solution at work that might work well for AMSAT. Leave the mailing list(s) basically as is, and then set up a Slack type solution for special projects, or intense conversations like the recent thread re: Amsat management and direction.
Sharing my experience, HTH, etc etc
'73 de KK6ZHZ
- Eli Caul
-----Original Message----- From: AMSAT-BB amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org On Behalf Of Robert MacHale via AMSAT-BB Sent: Tuesday, July 14, 2020 07:23 To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: [amsat-bb] Slack vs. eMail -- The medium is the message
Can I suggest moving AMSAT member communications from eMail to Slack?
When I taught at UC Riverside last year - we used Slack to communicate with students. The tech companies I have worked with in Southern California have used Slack for many years. Recently, I noticed the Parrot Disco (RC Glider) club uses Slack to communicate with volunteers and members:
https://github.com/uavpal/disco4g
The benefit to Slack is having channels for each topic. In this case, discussion about Board Membership can be in it's own channel. People who are not interested are not required to read.
Each technology can have it's own channel. Each project can have it's own channel. And, members can find each other easily. This current eMail subscription for all things creates a pain point - encouraging everyone to read everything. I highly recommend the Board of Directors evaluate Slack as a replacement for eMail; the corporate cost per user in low compared to value: excellent ROI. Remember, eMail subscriptions became popular in the 1980s. This protocol is entirely outdated and outmoded for conversations today. Keep in mind, the Medium is the message - another reminder AmSat has become outdated and outmoded and not keeping up with the times. Slack has been a positive and transforming tool employed on many projects I have worked with recently. Sincerely,
Robert MacHale. KE6BLR Ham Radio License. http://www.aprsat.com/predict . http://www.spaceCommunicator.club . Supporting Boy Scout Merit Badges in Radio, Robotics, and Space Exploration
_______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sigh. The main advantage seems to be shutting out what you don't wish to see. IMO members have a duty to involve themselves in the organization, rather than changing the channel as if this was the annual PBS telethon and they watch for free all year. AMSAT is not a public utility, paying your dues once a year and going back to being on the air is not sufficient to keep the satellites flying.
On Tue, Jul 14, 2020 at 9:53 AM Eli Caul via AMSAT-BB amsat-bb@amsat.org wrote:
In my corporate experience, you need to be very careful with these solutions - -It sounds great at first, but what ends up happening is you create so many sub groups in an effort to cover every interest that you end up with a big splintered environment in which you can’t find anything.
Also, IM solutions like Teams, Slack etc are really trying to solve a different problem. They are great for short sprints, projects, service outages and the like, but the messages tend to be very ephemeral.
We tried this in a few of the car clubs I participate in, and the people who suffer the most are casual visitors. They read digests, or just browse the list a few times a month and they get caught up.
In an IM environment, it seems that you have to be on it every day or else things get lost in the sands of time.
We run a hybrid solution at work that might work well for AMSAT. Leave the mailing list(s) basically as is, and then set up a Slack type solution for special projects, or intense conversations like the recent thread re: Amsat management and direction.
Sharing my experience, HTH, etc etc
'73 de KK6ZHZ
- Eli Caul
-----Original Message----- From: AMSAT-BB amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org On Behalf Of Robert MacHale via AMSAT-BB Sent: Tuesday, July 14, 2020 07:23 To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: [amsat-bb] Slack vs. eMail -- The medium is the message
Can I suggest moving AMSAT member communications from eMail to Slack?
When I taught at UC Riverside last year - we used Slack to communicate with students. The tech companies I have worked with in Southern California have used Slack for many years. Recently, I noticed the Parrot Disco (RC Glider) club uses Slack to communicate with volunteers and members:
https://github.com/uavpal/disco4g
The benefit to Slack is having channels for each topic. In this case, discussion about Board Membership can be in it's own channel. People who are not interested are not required to read.
Each technology can have it's own channel. Each project can have it's own channel. And, members can find each other easily. This current eMail subscription for all things creates a pain point - encouraging everyone to read everything. I highly recommend the Board of Directors evaluate Slack as a replacement for eMail; the corporate cost per user in low compared to value: excellent ROI. Remember, eMail subscriptions became popular in the 1980s. This protocol is entirely outdated and outmoded for conversations today. Keep in mind, the Medium is the message - another reminder AmSat has become outdated and outmoded and not keeping up with the times. Slack has been a positive and transforming tool employed on many projects I have worked with recently. Sincerely,
Robert MacHale. KE6BLR Ham Radio License. http://www.aprsat.com/predict . http://www.spaceCommunicator.club . Supporting Boy Scout Merit Badges in Radio, Robotics, and Space Exploration
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb _______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Eli, You raise a valid point that I really had not considered. My experience has been work related where the comms are short and project related, sometimes lively. But IMHO, a different approach should be considered with a hybrid being possible. --- Ciao baby, catch you on the flip side 73 de W3AB/GEO
You can say "over", you can say "out", you just can't say "over and out".
On Tuesday, July 14, 2020, 09:53:31 AM PDT, Eli Caul via AMSAT-BB amsat-bb@amsat.org wrote:
In my corporate experience, you need to be very careful with these solutions - -It sounds great at first, but what ends up happening is you create so many sub groups in an effort to cover every interest that you end up with a big splintered environment in which you can’t find anything.
Also, IM solutions like Teams, Slack etc are really trying to solve a different problem. They are great for short sprints, projects, service outages and the like, but the messages tend to be very ephemeral.
We tried this in a few of the car clubs I participate in, and the people who suffer the most are casual visitors. They read digests, or just browse the list a few times a month and they get caught up.
In an IM environment, it seems that you have to be on it every day or else things get lost in the sands of time.
We run a hybrid solution at work that might work well for AMSAT. Leave the mailing list(s) basically as is, and then set up a Slack type solution for special projects, or intense conversations like the recent thread re: Amsat management and direction.
Sharing my experience, HTH, etc etc
'73 de KK6ZHZ
- Eli Caul
-----Original Message----- From: AMSAT-BB amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org On Behalf Of Robert MacHale via AMSAT-BB Sent: Tuesday, July 14, 2020 07:23 To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: [amsat-bb] Slack vs. eMail -- The medium is the message
Can I suggest moving AMSAT member communications from eMail to Slack?
When I taught at UC Riverside last year - we used Slack to communicate with students. The tech companies I have worked with in Southern California have used Slack for many years. Recently, I noticed the Parrot Disco (RC Glider) club uses Slack to communicate with volunteers and members:
https://github.com/uavpal/disco4g
The benefit to Slack is having channels for each topic. In this case, discussion about Board Membership can be in it's own channel. People who are not interested are not required to read.
Each technology can have it's own channel. Each project can have it's own channel. And, members can find each other easily. This current eMail subscription for all things creates a pain point - encouraging everyone to read everything. I highly recommend the Board of Directors evaluate Slack as a replacement for eMail; the corporate cost per user in low compared to value: excellent ROI. Remember, eMail subscriptions became popular in the 1980s. This protocol is entirely outdated and outmoded for conversations today. Keep in mind, the Medium is the message - another reminder AmSat has become outdated and outmoded and not keeping up with the times. Slack has been a positive and transforming tool employed on many projects I have worked with recently. Sincerely,
Robert MacHale. KE6BLR Ham Radio License. http://www.aprsat.com/predict . http://www.spaceCommunicator.club . Supporting Boy Scout Merit Badges in Radio, Robotics, and Space Exploration
_______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb _______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
This increased activity won't go on indefinitely. If people can't handle it they can switch to digest mode, filter it, or temporarily unsubscribe, as some have. I don't think a big change like Slack is necessary. Personally, I don't use it anywhere else so I'm not likely to start running it just for AMSAT stuff.
73, John Brier KG4AKV
On Tue, Jul 14, 2020 at 1:05 PM Eli Caul via AMSAT-BB amsat-bb@amsat.org wrote:
In my corporate experience, you need to be very careful with these solutions - -It sounds great at first, but what ends up happening is you create so many sub groups in an effort to cover every interest that you end up with a big splintered environment in which you can’t find anything.
Also, IM solutions like Teams, Slack etc are really trying to solve a different problem. They are great for short sprints, projects, service outages and the like, but the messages tend to be very ephemeral.
We tried this in a few of the car clubs I participate in, and the people who suffer the most are casual visitors. They read digests, or just browse the list a few times a month and they get caught up.
In an IM environment, it seems that you have to be on it every day or else things get lost in the sands of time.
We run a hybrid solution at work that might work well for AMSAT. Leave the mailing list(s) basically as is, and then set up a Slack type solution for special projects, or intense conversations like the recent thread re: Amsat management and direction.
Sharing my experience, HTH, etc etc
'73 de KK6ZHZ
- Eli Caul
-----Original Message----- From: AMSAT-BB amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org On Behalf Of Robert MacHale via AMSAT-BB Sent: Tuesday, July 14, 2020 07:23 To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: [amsat-bb] Slack vs. eMail -- The medium is the message
Can I suggest moving AMSAT member communications from eMail to Slack?
When I taught at UC Riverside last year - we used Slack to communicate with students. The tech companies I have worked with in Southern California have used Slack for many years. Recently, I noticed the Parrot Disco (RC Glider) club uses Slack to communicate with volunteers and members:
https://github.com/uavpal/disco4g
The benefit to Slack is having channels for each topic. In this case, discussion about Board Membership can be in it's own channel. People who are not interested are not required to read.
Each technology can have it's own channel. Each project can have it's own channel. And, members can find each other easily. This current eMail subscription for all things creates a pain point - encouraging everyone to read everything. I highly recommend the Board of Directors evaluate Slack as a replacement for eMail; the corporate cost per user in low compared to value: excellent ROI. Remember, eMail subscriptions became popular in the 1980s. This protocol is entirely outdated and outmoded for conversations today. Keep in mind, the Medium is the message - another reminder AmSat has become outdated and outmoded and not keeping up with the times. Slack has been a positive and transforming tool employed on many projects I have worked with recently. Sincerely,
Robert MacHale. KE6BLR Ham Radio License. http://www.aprsat.com/predict . http://www.spaceCommunicator.club . Supporting Boy Scout Merit Badges in Radio, Robotics, and Space Exploration
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb _______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
We could have both.
They address different needs, I think.
Clayton said he wanted an AMSAT Slack a couple months ago. I strongly supported him and gave him all the advice I had.
Slack has drawbacks. You can't block people, so you need a strong and enforced community standard.
The owner can see everything. Everything! Choose admins wisely.
Even with nonprofit 85% discount, a lot of users will create expenses per month.
It is best in class for collaboration.
It works best when it's single project focused, but a Slack for an entire organization can work out well too.
You can manually export all messages, but otherwise its opaque and proprietary.
Another option is Discord. There is at least one amsat discord server. Details were posted here not that long ago.
An open source alternative is Matrix.
-Michelle W5NYV
On Tue, Jul 14, 2020, 10:06 Eli Caul via AMSAT-BB amsat-bb@amsat.org wrote:
In my corporate experience, you need to be very careful with these solutions - -It sounds great at first, but what ends up happening is you create so many sub groups in an effort to cover every interest that you end up with a big splintered environment in which you can’t find anything.
Also, IM solutions like Teams, Slack etc are really trying to solve a different problem. They are great for short sprints, projects, service outages and the like, but the messages tend to be very ephemeral.
We tried this in a few of the car clubs I participate in, and the people who suffer the most are casual visitors. They read digests, or just browse the list a few times a month and they get caught up.
In an IM environment, it seems that you have to be on it every day or else things get lost in the sands of time.
We run a hybrid solution at work that might work well for AMSAT. Leave the mailing list(s) basically as is, and then set up a Slack type solution for special projects, or intense conversations like the recent thread re: Amsat management and direction.
Sharing my experience, HTH, etc etc
'73 de KK6ZHZ
- Eli Caul
-----Original Message----- From: AMSAT-BB amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org On Behalf Of Robert MacHale via AMSAT-BB Sent: Tuesday, July 14, 2020 07:23 To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: [amsat-bb] Slack vs. eMail -- The medium is the message
Can I suggest moving AMSAT member communications from eMail to Slack?
When I taught at UC Riverside last year - we used Slack to communicate with students. The tech companies I have worked with in Southern California have used Slack for many years. Recently, I noticed the Parrot Disco (RC Glider) club uses Slack to communicate with volunteers and members:
https://github.com/uavpal/disco4g
The benefit to Slack is having channels for each topic. In this case, discussion about Board Membership can be in it's own channel. People who are not interested are not required to read.
Each technology can have it's own channel. Each project can have it's own channel. And, members can find each other easily. This current eMail subscription for all things creates a pain point - encouraging everyone to read everything. I highly recommend the Board of Directors evaluate Slack as a replacement for eMail; the corporate cost per user in low compared to value: excellent ROI. Remember, eMail subscriptions became popular in the 1980s. This protocol is entirely outdated and outmoded for conversations today. Keep in mind, the Medium is the message - another reminder AmSat has become outdated and outmoded and not keeping up with the times. Slack has been a positive and transforming tool employed on many projects I have worked with recently. Sincerely,
Robert MacHale. KE6BLR Ham Radio License. http://www.aprsat.com/predict . http://www.spaceCommunicator.club . Supporting Boy Scout Merit Badges in Radio, Robotics, and Space Exploration
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb _______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Discord's company has some reputation problems. Pretty much everything bad that social networks do, they found a way to do to as well.
Unfortunately about the only way to avoid this sort of issue is to control your own facilities, which open source software makes possible. And of course this means somebody has to manage it. I will not deny that that is a serious overhead for a volunteer organization.
An email BB like we have now takes little (or used to take little) administration. Do we want to add another admin task if we don't have to? Subgroups are a good idea and they work. I think amsat-bb is an adequate subgroup as it stands.
Bob W7OTJ
On Tue, Jul 14, 2020 at 10:06 AM Eli Caul via AMSAT-BB amsat-bb@amsat.org wrote:
In my corporate experience, you need to be very careful with these solutions - -It sounds great at first, but what ends up happening is you create so many sub groups in an effort to cover every interest that you end up with a big splintered environment in which you can’t find anything.
Also, IM solutions like Teams, Slack etc are really trying to solve a different problem. They are great for short sprints, projects, service outages and the like, but the messages tend to be very ephemeral.
We tried this in a few of the car clubs I participate in, and the people who suffer the most are casual visitors. They read digests, or just browse the list a few times a month and they get caught up.
In an IM environment, it seems that you have to be on it every day or else things get lost in the sands of time.
We run a hybrid solution at work that might work well for AMSAT. Leave the mailing list(s) basically as is, and then set up a Slack type solution for special projects, or intense conversations like the recent thread re: Amsat management and direction.
Sharing my experience, HTH, etc etc
'73 de KK6ZHZ
- Eli Caul
-----Original Message----- From: AMSAT-BB amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org On Behalf Of Robert MacHale via AMSAT-BB Sent: Tuesday, July 14, 2020 07:23 To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: [amsat-bb] Slack vs. eMail -- The medium is the message
Can I suggest moving AMSAT member communications from eMail to Slack?
When I taught at UC Riverside last year - we used Slack to communicate with students. The tech companies I have worked with in Southern California have used Slack for many years. Recently, I noticed the Parrot Disco (RC Glider) club uses Slack to communicate with volunteers and members:
https://github.com/uavpal/disco4g
The benefit to Slack is having channels for each topic. In this case, discussion about Board Membership can be in it's own channel. People who are not interested are not required to read.
Each technology can have it's own channel. Each project can have it's own channel. And, members can find each other easily. This current eMail subscription for all things creates a pain point - encouraging everyone to read everything. I highly recommend the Board of Directors evaluate Slack as a replacement for eMail; the corporate cost per user in low compared to value: excellent ROI. Remember, eMail subscriptions became popular in the 1980s. This protocol is entirely outdated and outmoded for conversations today. Keep in mind, the Medium is the message - another reminder AmSat has become outdated and outmoded and not keeping up with the times. Slack has been a positive and transforming tool employed on many projects I have worked with recently. Sincerely,
Robert MacHale. KE6BLR Ham Radio License. http://www.aprsat.com/predict . http://www.spaceCommunicator.club . Supporting Boy Scout Merit Badges in Radio, Robotics, and Space Exploration
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb _______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Hello everyone,
As others have pointed out, there can be very significant downsides to conference systems over email. As much as we might think we want topics to be separated you can easily end up with too much fragmentation of both topics and responses, navigation can be an issue, moderation is much more labor-intensive, and it forces everyone to use yet another platform which may lead to a loss of interest and participation.
If staying with an email list, AMSAT should consider a more modern email list system. Someone else mentioned groups.io which is one example of an email list system that provides some limited group features. I'm sure there are other such systems worth considering, and they will all provide the usual refinements over AMSAT-BB like text formatting (colour, bold, underline, bullet lists, etc.), embedded images, and attachments. In addition to usability features, such platforms will likely improve email deliverability and will not require AMSAT to operate their own email list services. [It's generally not a good idea for most small organizations to run their own email servers these days - too much security and technical overhead, and who needs that?]
73 Ken VA7KBM
On 7/14/2020 7:23 AM, Robert MacHale via AMSAT-BB wrote:
Can I suggest moving AMSAT member communications from eMail to Slack?
When I taught at UC Riverside last year - we used Slack to communicate with students. The tech companies I have worked with in Southern California have used Slack for many years. Recently, I noticed the Parrot Disco (RC Glider) club uses Slack to communicate with volunteers and members:
https://github.com/uavpal/disco4g
The benefit to Slack is having channels for each topic. In this case, discussion about Board Membership can be in it's own channel. People who are not interested are not required to read.
Each technology can have it's own channel. Each project can have it's own channel. And, members can find each other easily. This current eMail subscription for all things creates a pain point - encouraging everyone to read everything. I highly recommend the Board of Directors evaluate Slack as a replacement for eMail; the corporate cost per user in low compared to value: excellent ROI. Remember, eMail subscriptions became popular in the 1980s. This protocol is entirely outdated and outmoded for conversations today. Keep in mind, the Medium is the message - another reminder AmSat has become outdated and outmoded and not keeping up with the times. Slack has been a positive and transforming tool employed on many projects I have worked with recently. Sincerely,
Robert MacHale. KE6BLR Ham Radio License. http://www.aprsat.com/predict . http://www.spaceCommunicator.club . Supporting Boy Scout Merit Badges in Radio, Robotics, and Space Exploration
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Ken, VA7KBM wrote:
... AMSAT should consider a more modern email list system.
Presently the IT crew is working on migrating our servers off the existing Linux distribution which goes end-of-life in November to Ubuntu 20.04 LTS. This will result in a change to GNU Mailman 3.0 ... more modern but not exactly a quantum leap. Now would be a great time for a fleshed out proposal for something else since it would be hard on the users to switch again in another year or whatever. I have looked at groups.io a little bit in the past, and it seems to be run by "good guys". Don't wait for "AMSAT" to consider alternatives, you guys are AMSAT, so put together a good proposal and convince people.
... It's generally not a good idea for most small organizations to run their own email servers these days - too much security and technical overhead, and who needs that?
I surely don't need that and I am one of they guys that directly deals with that overhead. That being said, an issue that trips me up every time I look at having someone else run things is the e-mail alias service we provide to anyone with a callsign. We have somewhere around 16,000 users of that service and I know of no economically viable way to do that except on our own servers.
de KM1P Joe
It is not fair to say "you guys are AMSAT" (only guys?), when so many of us for so long have proposed things to officers that are ignored or rejected without cause.
Asking the customer to fix the problem means that current leadership doesn't know what to do.
Some of us have been prevented from even having access to communications.
Patrick Stoddard and I were denied access to the BoD email archive for many months.
With no board meetings, by definition there is no direction or oversight for IT. It's run completely by officers without any input from anyone elected by the membership.
Joe KM1P is a hero. He has served and produced excellent work, under trying conditions, for a long time. He does this out of generosity and does this with care.
So, yes, we should speak up for what we want and yes, "we are AMSAT".
Please speak up. But also vote for a functional board that will help volunteers like Joe have an easier job, support what needs to be done to modernize AMSAT-BB, and will have his back.
Volunteers like Joe will get that from Patrick and myself. We need more on the board to make this happen.
Please consider voting for Bob McGwier, Howie DeFelice, and Jeff Johns.
Thank you,
-Michelle W5NYV
On Thu, Jul 16, 2020 at 10:04 AM Joseph B. Fitzgerald via AMSAT-BB < amsat-bb@amsat.org> wrote:
Ken, VA7KBM wrote:
... AMSAT should consider a more modern email list system.
Presently the IT crew is working on migrating our servers off the existing Linux distribution which goes end-of-life in November to Ubuntu 20.04 LTS. This will result in a change to GNU Mailman 3.0 ... more modern but not exactly a quantum leap. Now would be a great time for a fleshed out proposal for something else since it would be hard on the users to switch again in another year or whatever. I have looked at groups.io a little bit in the past, and it seems to be run by "good guys". Don't wait for "AMSAT" to consider alternatives, you guys are AMSAT, so put together a good proposal and convince people.
... It's generally not a good idea for most small organizations to run their own email servers these days - too much security and technical overhead, and who needs that?
I surely don't need that and I am one of they guys that directly deals with that overhead. That being said, an issue that trips me up every time I look at having someone else run things is the e-mail alias service we provide to anyone with a callsign. We have somewhere around 16,000 users of that service and I know of no economically viable way to do that except on our own servers.
de KM1P Joe _______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Whoops ... you PEOPLE are AMSAT. Thanks for catching that Michelle, between you and my 20 year old daughter I just might get my gender neutrality act together one day.
de KM1P
We are all works in progress.
My 17 year old daughter keel hauls me all the time.
-Michelle W5NYV
On Thu, Jul 16, 2020 at 10:55 AM Joseph B. Fitzgerald < jfitzgerald@alum.wpi.edu> wrote:
Whoops ... you PEOPLE are AMSAT. Thanks for catching that Michelle, between you and my 20 year old daughter I just might get my gender neutrality act together one day.
de KM1P
Wow, I can't believe you hijacked this thread to continue to spread misinformation and play the victim card. No one in AMSAT is stopping you from having Board Meetings, other than yourselves. Part of being a leader is to build consensus and motivate those you work with or under you. When differing positions are present, you work towards a compromised solution to allow the organization to move forward and grow. Did either you or Patrick reach across the aisle and ask one of the other 5 Directors to join you in a call for a meeting? As you said, you needed 3 Directors to call a meeting. You already had 2. I really find it hard that no one would join you, especiall when at least two of the votes you disclosed were split 4-3. Does the meeting have to be conducted by teleconference? The Board has a mailing list, so a meeting could be conducted via email. That same mailing list could be used to discuss issues and develop a plan of action that could then be acted upon. Does the Board have to hold a monthly meeting? If not, how often? I notice that ORI, per their website, conducted 3 meetings in 2018 and only one in 2019. Is their work that much less important than AMSAT that the Board needs to meet so infrequently? On that same website, https://openresearch.institute/executive-board-meeting-minutes/%C2%A0 I see that ORI conducts its board meetings via email. Would that not answer the question above. AMSAT Directors are elected by the members, and the Directors elect the Officers (thank you for your vote, by the way). You also have the right as a Director to call for the dismissal of an officer when they do not perform to standard. To my knowledge you and Patrick have made not such call, yet you continually continue to berate AMSAT Officers and fellow Directors in public and in private. Let's be honest. The only way you can get what you want is to take control of AMSAT. That's not leadership.
Enough of the political spin and outright lies. Let us do our job and you and Patrick do your.
Robert, KE4AL
On Thursday, July 16, 2020, 12:51:54 PM CDT, Michelle Thompson via AMSAT-BB amsat-bb@amsat.org wrote:
It is not fair to say "you guys are AMSAT" (only guys?), when so many of us for so long have proposed things to officers that are ignored or rejected without cause.
Asking the customer to fix the problem means that current leadership doesn't know what to do.
Some of us have been prevented from even having access to communications.
Patrick Stoddard and I were denied access to the BoD email archive for many months.
With no board meetings, by definition there is no direction or oversight for IT. It's run completely by officers without any input from anyone elected by the membership.
Joe KM1P is a hero. He has served and produced excellent work, under trying conditions, for a long time. He does this out of generosity and does this with care.
So, yes, we should speak up for what we want and yes, "we are AMSAT".
Please speak up. But also vote for a functional board that will help volunteers like Joe have an easier job, support what needs to be done to modernize AMSAT-BB, and will have his back.
Volunteers like Joe will get that from Patrick and myself. We need more on the board to make this happen.
Please consider voting for Bob McGwier, Howie DeFelice, and Jeff Johns.
Thank you,
-Michelle W5NYV
That is incorrect.
Ignored email is simply not a substitute for a board meeting.
Board meetings must either be called by three board members, or called by the President. Two of us have patiently repeated the call for regular meetings. These requests have been ignored.
Neither of the two Presidents we've had this year have called regular board meetings. Clayton called one in March, and like I said, it went well, and was supposed to be the start of a regular schedule. Nothing heard since then, which is a disappointment.
This problem started in September 2019. I think Patrick and I have been very, very patient with this.
At the 2019 annual meeting, Joe Spier, Mark Hammond, and Jerry Buxton spun quite the tale of how AMSAT board meetings were unproductive, unnecessary. Silly even. Everyone went along with this except Patrick and myself.
Not having meetings is bad corporate practice. Others have pointed this out. There is no good reason not to have them. We'd be in such better shape with regular meetings and good decisions.
It isn't too much to ask of the membership to please consider replacing people that block board meetings and refuse to meet, either because they are not capable of coming up with efficient agendas, or because they don't want to hear from anyone outside of their clique.
-Michelle W5NYV
On Thu, Jul 16, 2020 at 1:39 PM Robert Bankston via AMSAT-BB < amsat-bb@amsat.org> wrote:
Wow, I can't believe you hijacked this thread to continue to spread misinformation and play the victim card.
No one in AMSAT is stopping you from having Board Meetings, other than yourselves.
Part of being a leader is to build consensus and motivate those you work with or under you. When differing positions are present, you work towards a compromised solution to allow the organization to move forward and grow.
Did either you or Patrick reach across the aisle and ask one of the other 5 Directors to join you in a call for a meeting? As you said, you needed 3 Directors to call a meeting. You already had 2. I really find it hard that no one would join you, especiall when at least two of the votes you disclosed were split 4-3.
Does the meeting have to be conducted by teleconference? The Board has a mailing list, so a meeting could be conducted via email. That same mailing list could be used to discuss issues and develop a plan of action that could then be acted upon.
Does the Board have to hold a monthly meeting? If not, how often? I notice that ORI, per their website, conducted 3 meetings in 2018 and only one in 2019. Is their work that much less important than AMSAT that the Board needs to meet so infrequently?
On that same website, https://openresearch.institute/executive-board-meeting-minutes/ I see that ORI conducts its board meetings via email. Would that not answer the question above.
AMSAT Directors are elected by the members, and the Directors elect the Officers (thank you for your vote, by the way). You also have the right as a Director to call for the dismissal of an officer when they do not perform to standard. To my knowledge you and Patrick have made not such call, yet you continually continue to berate AMSAT Officers and fellow Directors in public and in private.
Let's be honest. The only way you can get what you want is to take control of AMSAT. That's not leadership.
Enough of the political spin and outright lies. Let us do our job and you and Patrick do your.
Robert, KE4AL
On Thursday, July 16, 2020, 12:51:54 PM CDT, Michelle Thompson via AMSAT-BB amsat-bb@amsat.org wrote:
It is not fair to say "you guys are AMSAT" (only guys?), when so many of us for so long have proposed things to officers that are ignored or rejected without cause.
Asking the customer to fix the problem means that current leadership doesn't know what to do.
Some of us have been prevented from even having access to communications.
Patrick Stoddard and I were denied access to the BoD email archive for many months.
With no board meetings, by definition there is no direction or oversight for IT. It's run completely by officers without any input from anyone elected by the membership.
Joe KM1P is a hero. He has served and produced excellent work, under trying conditions, for a long time. He does this out of generosity and does this with care.
So, yes, we should speak up for what we want and yes, "we are AMSAT".
Please speak up. But also vote for a functional board that will help volunteers like Joe have an easier job, support what needs to be done to modernize AMSAT-BB, and will have his back.
Volunteers like Joe will get that from Patrick and myself. We need more on the board to make this happen.
Please consider voting for Bob McGwier, Howie DeFelice, and Jeff Johns.
Thank you,
-Michelle W5NYV _______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
What Michelle reports reminds me very much of the recent Confidentiality versus Transparency debacle at ARRL. They censured one of their own board members just as Patrick and Michelle have been censured. And it was all about keeping things away from the membership, which of course brought the membership up in arms, and it originated in bad advice from corporate attorneys.
The stars aligned for the confidentiality bloc to lose its majority in one election. I don't believe that anyone is saying we should go back to the old ARRL.
Hi Joe,
My apologies - I didn't mean to state the obvious, or make light of any technical or operational difficulties with respect to email.
Personally, I haven't used groups.io enough myself to either recommend it or not recommend it, but I can imagine the tagging and group-like features of groups.io might bridge the gap between those AMSAT members who like traditional email lists and those who favour more of a conference-like system. Other members may have had more in-depth with groups.io or other systems and be prepared to champion one system over another.
Again, speaking personally, I would just phase-out the email aliasing service.
Thanks to you and everyone else at AMSAT for all your work!
73 Ken VA7KBM
On 7/16/2020 9:54 AM, Joseph B. Fitzgerald wrote:
Ken, VA7KBM wrote:
... AMSAT should consider a more modern email list system.
Presently the IT crew is working on migrating our servers off the existing Linux distribution which goes end-of-life in November to Ubuntu 20.04 LTS. This will result in a change to GNU Mailman 3.0 ... more modern but not exactly a quantum leap. Now would be a great time for a fleshed out proposal for something else since it would be hard on the users to switch again in another year or whatever. I have looked at groups.io a little bit in the past, and it seems to be run by "good guys". Don't wait for "AMSAT" to consider alternatives, you guys are AMSAT, so put together a good proposal and convince people.
... It's generally not a good idea for most small organizations to run their own email servers these days - too much security and technical overhead, and who needs that?
I surely don't need that and I am one of they guys that directly deals with that overhead. That being said, an issue that trips me up every time I look at having someone else run things is the e-mail alias service we provide to anyone with a callsign. We have somewhere around 16,000 users of that service and I know of no economically viable way to do that except on our own servers.
de KM1P Joe
Again, speaking personally, I would just phase-out the email aliasing service.
That would be a huge problem for many of the people who use it. Just taking away the e-mail alias itself would mean breaking countless links around the web - for example in many years of e-mail archives across numerous discussion lists, where people could no longer reply to the author of a message they found in those archives. Also, e-mail addresses are used for much more than just sending mail. They're used for account ids on websites, account ids in source control systems, account ids in bug tracking systems, and much more. And in the ham world, using your callsign is perhaps a more common means of id than your name, so having callsign@amsat.org is an easy way for people to reach you. (No doubt someone will mention @arrl.net as an alternative, but that requires membership in ARRL, and not everyone is, or wants to be, a member of that organisation.)
Martin. KD6YAM
On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 4:55 PM VA7KBM via AMSAT-BB amsat-bb@amsat.org wrote:
Hi Joe,
My apologies - I didn't mean to state the obvious, or make light of any technical or operational difficulties with respect to email.
Personally, I haven't used groups.io enough myself to either recommend it or not recommend it, but I can imagine the tagging and group-like features of groups.io might bridge the gap between those AMSAT members who like traditional email lists and those who favour more of a conference-like system. Other members may have had more in-depth with groups.io or other systems and be prepared to champion one system over another.
Again, speaking personally, I would just phase-out the email aliasing service.
Thanks to you and everyone else at AMSAT for all your work!
73 Ken VA7KBM
On 7/16/2020 9:54 AM, Joseph B. Fitzgerald wrote:
Ken, VA7KBM wrote:
... AMSAT should consider a more modern email list system.
Presently the IT crew is working on migrating our servers off the
existing Linux distribution which goes end-of-life in November to Ubuntu 20.04 LTS. This will result in a change to GNU Mailman 3.0 ... more modern but not exactly a quantum leap. Now would be a great time for a fleshed out proposal for something else since it would be hard on the users to switch again in another year or whatever. I have looked at groups.io a little bit in the past, and it seems to be run by "good guys". Don't wait for "AMSAT" to consider alternatives, you guys are AMSAT, so put together a good proposal and convince people.
... It's generally not a good idea for most small organizations to run their own email servers these days - too much security and technical overhead, and who needs that?
I surely don't need that and I am one of they guys that directly deals
with that overhead. That being said, an issue that trips me up every time I look at having someone else run things is the e-mail alias service we provide to anyone with a callsign. We have somewhere around 16,000 users of that service and I know of no economically viable way to do that except on our own servers.
de KM1P Joe
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
participants (11)
-
Bob Hammond -
Bruce Perens -
Eli Caul -
GEO Badger -
John Brier -
Joseph B. Fitzgerald -
Martin Cooper -
Michelle Thompson -
Robert Bankston -
Robert MacHale -
VA7KBM