I sent this direct first but was rejected because I'm not on his "approved" list.
Ken I really think that there are a large number like myself waiting to see what is going to happen for a replacement for AO40.
From people that I have talked to with a license calls above tech and more then a HT could care less about another FM bird.
John
At 03:47 PM 9/18/2012, you wrote:
I disagree with the principle of prodding apathetic people to vote. If somebody isn't willing to do the research, fill out a card, and mail it back, then why should we go out of our way to get a vote they themselves apparently don't care about. I'm more interested in the opinions of those who are motivated enough to do this relatively simple task. I don't understand the fixation with getting a higher percentage of the membership to vote.
73, Ken N2WWD
The way I understand this age old train of thought and I get it a lot from my local hams when I do a hamfest for AMSAT in my area is that, just like in many ham clubs, there are a group of people who feel that they are "real hams". Whether it's because they had to pass a harder test ( as in the old advanced test was harder then the current extra ) of they had to pass a 20 WPM code test or they had to drive to the FCC and that people coming into the hobby today are second class citizens, not good enough because the test criteria changed. Same thing with AMSAT. Unless you work linear birds you are not a "real" satellite operator. We can take that a step or two farther. I'd say you are not a real satellite operator unless you use the old Oscar Locator, figure your own pass predictions without the benefit of a computer. We can make the argument of who is a better man all day long and still end up with the same two groups on opposite sides of the room. No doubt a HEO bird or geosync is idea, we've read it here a million times. We've heard the "build it and they will come" comments a million times. No one ever talks about the reality. Most of you guys who want HEO admit that you don't support AMSAT in it's current mission. So I assume you don't go to symposiums or have other routes to information. How much did AO40 cost in it's day? That part I don't know. I recall a slide from the 2010 Symposium I think it was that showed the cost of a replacement AO-51 and it was around $500K, the price IntelSat wanted just to place a transponder on the open space of their bird and carry it to geosync was $1.2M. So how long will it take all of you "build it and they will come" guys to pony up that kind of money? Then there is a launch...visit www.batc.tv and watch AMSAT-DL's 2012 symposium update. P3E is sitting almost ready to go, the hardware is nearly 5 years old...there is no launch...no one can realistically raise that much money. If you have noticed there is not really that much development of new launchers so no opportunities to ride as ballast like in the old days.
If you are going to push education, it's not real easy to sell someone like NASA who has launchers available, that their interest in education is served by launching an AO-40 replacement when it'll be full of "real hams" and little opportunity for students. The road to reduced cost launches lies with the education card and that is the path AMSAT-NA is on and until one of the "real hams" wants to step up and head a drive to raise several million dollars, I think you'll all be dead a buried before another AO-40 flies.
John - AG9D
On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 3:49 PM, John Becker w0jab@big-river.net wrote:
I sent this direct first but was rejected because I'm not on his "approved" list.
Ken I really think that there are a large number like myself waiting to see what is going to happen for a replacement for AO40.
From people that I have talked to with a license calls above tech and more then a HT could care less about another FM bird.
John
At 03:47 PM 9/18/2012, you wrote:
I disagree with the principle of prodding apathetic people to vote. If
somebody isn't willing to do the research, fill out a card, and mail it back, then why should we go out of our way to get a vote they themselves apparently don't care about. I'm more interested in the opinions of those who are motivated enough to do this relatively simple task. I don't understand the fixation with getting a higher percentage of the membership to vote.
73, Ken N2WWD
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
The reason for my thinking is simple. I was 10 when Gene Cernan walked on the moon. In case you forgot, he was the LAST an to walk on the moon. I've been waiting 38 years for it to happpen again. So rather then wait for P3E or AO-40 part deux I would rather have something up there than nothing at all.
John - AG9D
On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 5:09 PM, John Spasojevich johnag9d@gmail.comwrote:
The way I understand this age old train of thought and I get it a lot from my local hams when I do a hamfest for AMSAT in my area is that, just like in many ham clubs, there are a group of people who feel that they are "real hams". Whether it's because they had to pass a harder test ( as in the old advanced test was harder then the current extra ) of they had to pass a 20 WPM code test or they had to drive to the FCC and that people coming into the hobby today are second class citizens, not good enough because the test criteria changed. Same thing with AMSAT. Unless you work linear birds you are not a "real" satellite operator. We can take that a step or two farther. I'd say you are not a real satellite operator unless you use the old Oscar Locator, figure your own pass predictions without the benefit of a computer. We can make the argument of who is a better man all day long and still end up with the same two groups on opposite sides of the room. No doubt a HEO bird or geosync is idea, we've read it here a million times. We've heard the "build it and they will come" comments a million times. No one ever talks about the reality. Most of you guys who want HEO admit that you don't support AMSAT in it's current mission. So I assume you don't go to symposiums or have other routes to information. How much did AO40 cost in it's day? That part I don't know. I recall a slide from the 2010 Symposium I think it was that showed the cost of a replacement AO-51 and it was around $500K, the price IntelSat wanted just to place a transponder on the open space of their bird and carry it to geosync was $1.2M. So how long will it take all of you "build it and they will come" guys to pony up that kind of money? Then there is a launch...visit www.batc.tv and watch AMSAT-DL's 2012 symposium update. P3E is sitting almost ready to go, the hardware is nearly 5 years old...there is no launch...no one can realistically raise that much money. If you have noticed there is not really that much development of new launchers so no opportunities to ride as ballast like in the old days.
If you are going to push education, it's not real easy to sell someone like NASA who has launchers available, that their interest in education is served by launching an AO-40 replacement when it'll be full of "real hams" and little opportunity for students. The road to reduced cost launches lies with the education card and that is the path AMSAT-NA is on and until one of the "real hams" wants to step up and head a drive to raise several million dollars, I think you'll all be dead a buried before another AO-40 flies.
John - AG9D
On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 3:49 PM, John Becker w0jab@big-river.net wrote:
I sent this direct first but was rejected because I'm not on his "approved" list.
Ken I really think that there are a large number like myself waiting to see what is going to happen for a replacement for AO40.
From people that I have talked to with a license calls above tech and more then a HT could care less about another FM bird.
John
At 03:47 PM 9/18/2012, you wrote:
I disagree with the principle of prodding apathetic people to vote. If
somebody isn't willing to do the research, fill out a card, and mail it back, then why should we go out of our way to get a vote they themselves apparently don't care about. I'm more interested in the opinions of those who are motivated enough to do this relatively simple task. I don't understand the fixation with getting a higher percentage of the membership to vote.
73, Ken N2WWD
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
On 09/19/2012 06:09 PM, John Spasojevich wrote:
If you are going to push education, it's not real easy to sell someone like NASA who has launchers available, that their interest in education is served by launching an AO-40 replacement when it'll be full of "real hams" and little opportunity for students. The road to reduced cost launches lies with the education card and that is the path AMSAT-NA is on and until one of the "real hams" wants to step up and head a drive to raise several million dollars, I think you'll all be dead a buried before another AO-40 flies.
I fear you are correct. About the likelihood of another HEO launch. But I disagree about the rest.
The education card may gain us cheaper launches, but why are we bothering? A recent post here mentioned a five-satellite CubeSat launch, concluding that "Four of the CubeSats carry Amateur Radio payloads..." Excuse me?
F-1 transmits on 145.980 MHz and 437.485 MHz which are both ham frequencies. But hams can't use this bird, because unless you want to look at earth images (and live in the vicinity of the ground-station) or you are interested in the spacecraft's obscure telemetry, there is nothing for you here. And if you ARE interested, you don't have to be a ham radio operator to "use" the satellite. All you need is the appropriate receiver and no license.
FITSAT-1 transmits on 437.250 MHz, 437.445 MHz and 5.840 GHz. Again, all ham frequencies, and again, useable by ANYONE, with or without a ham license, because all you need is a receiver (seeing as all you can do is listen to some more obscure telemetry). The Hi-Brite LEDs writing CW in the sky is really neet... but you won't see it unless you live near the ground-station.... which I don't
WE-WISH (apparently) downlinks on ham frequency 437.505 MHz. It seems to have a thermal imager on it, and presumably lots more obscure telemetry. Once again, non-hams can use this as easily as hams because it only requires you have a receiver, no interaction being possible.
TechEdSat will allow you (and any non-ham with a receiver) to listen to the obscure telemetry (hereinafter "ObsTel") on ham frequency 437.465 MHz. Why you would want to, I can't imagine.
So. Is this the sort of "Amateur Radio Payload" that we should hope for, if we continue to play the education card? Personally, I can't see why we should bother. Judging by these satellites, the phrase "carries an amateur radio payload" really means "usurps amateur radio frequencies for non-amateur use for telemetry and telecommand on non-amateur satellites".
Let me make it plain. I have no objection to (and indeed, I support) satellites being launched for educational reasons. I suppose that I really don't even object to the HamSat frequencies being used for non-ham purposes, seeing as WE aren't using those frequencies for anything much. But what are we gaining from playing this education card? The hope that occasionally, we can arrange the launch of some short lifespan, low range, fast pass, single channel FM bird that I get to shout callsign and gridsquare at for 6-8 minutes at a time, on a good day?
You know, I don't have 10M to spare, to pay for a HEO launch. If I did, I would. I might scrape together 10K to donate. But honestly now, why should I? Apparently there will never be another AO-13 for me (and "real hams") to enjoy, because such a bird will offer little opportunity for students.
But of course, I am nobody special, and not even an AMSAT member (I'll tell you why, if you want me to) so you can safely ignore my post.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Gus 8P6SM" 8p6sm@anjo.com To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2012 5:30 AM Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: 22% votes
Judging by these satellites, the phrase "carries an amateur radio payload" really means "usurps amateur radio frequencies for non-amateur use for telemetry and telecommand on non-amateur satellites".
73, de Gus 8P6SM The Easternmost Isle
Hi Gus, 8P6SM
Well said ! I agree completely with you
73" de
i8CVS Domenico
Hi Gus...a bit painful to read, however I agree with about 99.9% if it. The truth hurts. 73 Bob W7LED
----- Original Message ----- From: "Gus 8P6SM" 8p6sm@anjo.com To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2012 8:30:50 PM Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: 22% votes
On 09/19/2012 06:09 PM, John Spasojevich wrote:
If you are going to push education, it's not real easy to sell someone like NASA who has launchers available, that their interest in education is served by launching an AO-40 replacement when it'll be full of "real hams" and little opportunity for students. The road to reduced cost launches lies with the education card and that is the path AMSAT-NA is on and until one of the "real hams" wants to step up and head a drive to raise several million dollars, I think you'll all be dead a buried before another AO-40 flies.
I fear you are correct. About the likelihood of another HEO launch. But I disagree about the rest.
The education card may gain us cheaper launches, but why are we bothering? A recent post here mentioned a five-satellite CubeSat launch, concluding that "Four of the CubeSats carry Amateur Radio payloads..." Excuse me?
F-1 transmits on 145.980 MHz and 437.485 MHz which are both ham frequencies. But hams can't use this bird, because unless you want to look at earth images (and live in the vicinity of the ground-station) or you are interested in the spacecraft's obscure telemetry, there is nothing for you here. And if you ARE interested, you don't have to be a ham radio operator to "use" the satellite. All you need is the appropriate receiver and no license.
FITSAT-1 transmits on 437.250 MHz, 437.445 MHz and 5.840 GHz. Again, all ham frequencies, and again, useable by ANYONE, with or without a ham license, because all you need is a receiver (seeing as all you can do is listen to some more obscure telemetry). The Hi-Brite LEDs writing CW in the sky is really neet... but you won't see it unless you live near the ground-station.... which I don't
WE-WISH (apparently) downlinks on ham frequency 437.505 MHz. It seems to have a thermal imager on it, and presumably lots more obscure telemetry. Once again, non-hams can use this as easily as hams because it only requires you have a receiver, no interaction being possible.
TechEdSat will allow you (and any non-ham with a receiver) to listen to the obscure telemetry (hereinafter "ObsTel") on ham frequency 437.465 MHz. Why you would want to, I can't imagine.
So. Is this the sort of "Amateur Radio Payload" that we should hope for, if we continue to play the education card? Personally, I can't see why we should bother. Judging by these satellites, the phrase "carries an amateur radio payload" really means "usurps amateur radio frequencies for non-amateur use for telemetry and telecommand on non-amateur satellites".
Let me make it plain. I have no objection to (and indeed, I support) satellites being launched for educational reasons. I suppose that I really don't even object to the HamSat frequencies being used for non-ham purposes, seeing as WE aren't using those frequencies for anything much. But what are we gaining from playing this education card? The hope that occasionally, we can arrange the launch of some short lifespan, low range, fast pass, single channel FM bird that I get to shout callsign and gridsquare at for 6-8 minutes at a time, on a good day?
You know, I don't have 10M to spare, to pay for a HEO launch. If I did, I would. I might scrape together 10K to donate. But honestly now, why should I? Apparently there will never be another AO-13 for me (and "real hams") to enjoy, because such a bird will offer little opportunity for students.
But of course, I am nobody special, and not even an AMSAT member (I'll tell you why, if you want me to) so you can safely ignore my post.
Gus, I understand what you are saying I share the same thoughts on the use of the frequencies. Maybe by their use of them it keeps them active. I don't presume to have the answers or the money. I just wish I knew what a "real" ham is or was because no matter what part of the hobby I stick my nose into it seems the "good old days" are the measure. My observation of the hobby from my short 12 years in is that it's a hobby terribly stuck in the past for a large number of folks.
John AG9D
Sent from my iPod
On Sep 19, 2012, at 10:30 PM, Gus 8P6SM 8p6sm@anjo.com wrote:
On 09/19/2012 06:09 PM, John Spasojevich wrote:
If you are going to push education, it's not real easy to sell someone like NASA who has launchers available, that their interest in education is served by launching an AO-40 replacement when it'll be full of "real hams" and little opportunity for students. The road to reduced cost launches lies with the education card and that is the path AMSAT-NA is on and until one of the "real hams" wants to step up and head a drive to raise several million dollars, I think you'll all be dead a buried before another AO-40 flies.
I fear you are correct. About the likelihood of another HEO launch. But I disagree about the rest.
The education card may gain us cheaper launches, but why are we bothering? A recent post here mentioned a five-satellite CubeSat launch, concluding that "Four of the CubeSats carry Amateur Radio payloads..." Excuse me?
F-1 transmits on 145.980 MHz and 437.485 MHz which are both ham frequencies. But hams can't use this bird, because unless you want to look at earth images (and live in the vicinity of the ground-station) or you are interested in the spacecraft's obscure telemetry, there is nothing for you here. And if you ARE interested, you don't have to be a ham radio operator to "use" the satellite. All you need is the appropriate receiver and no license.
FITSAT-1 transmits on 437.250 MHz, 437.445 MHz and 5.840 GHz. Again, all ham frequencies, and again, useable by ANYONE, with or without a ham license, because all you need is a receiver (seeing as all you can do is listen to some more obscure telemetry). The Hi-Brite LEDs writing CW in the sky is really neet... but you won't see it unless you live near the ground-station.... which I don't
WE-WISH (apparently) downlinks on ham frequency 437.505 MHz. It seems to have a thermal imager on it, and presumably lots more obscure telemetry. Once again, non-hams can use this as easily as hams because it only requires you have a receiver, no interaction being possible.
TechEdSat will allow you (and any non-ham with a receiver) to listen to the obscure telemetry (hereinafter "ObsTel") on ham frequency 437.465 MHz. Why you would want to, I can't imagine.
So. Is this the sort of "Amateur Radio Payload" that we should hope for, if we continue to play the education card? Personally, I can't see why we should bother. Judging by these satellites, the phrase "carries an amateur radio payload" really means "usurps amateur radio frequencies for non-amateur use for telemetry and telecommand on non-amateur satellites".
Let me make it plain. I have no objection to (and indeed, I support) satellites being launched for educational reasons. I suppose that I really don't even object to the HamSat frequencies being used for non-ham purposes, seeing as WE aren't using those frequencies for anything much. But what are we gaining from playing this education card? The hope that occasionally, we can arrange the launch of some short lifespan, low range, fast pass, single channel FM bird that I get to shout callsign and gridsquare at for 6-8 minutes at a time, on a good day?
You know, I don't have 10M to spare, to pay for a HEO launch. If I did, I would. I might scrape together 10K to donate. But honestly now, why should I? Apparently there will never be another AO-13 for me (and "real hams") to enjoy, because such a bird will offer little opportunity for students.
But of course, I am nobody special, and not even an AMSAT member (I'll tell you why, if you want me to) so you can safely ignore my post.
73, de Gus 8P6SM The Easternmost Isle _______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
participants (6)
-
Bob- W7LRD -
Gus 8P6SM -
i8cvs -
John -
John Becker -
John Spasojevich