I really do get bored reading about all these threats to Mode S from WiFi, etc.
NOT!
These are 100 mW devices...maximum! That means they have to be relatively close to your QTH for you to hear them.
1. Pick up your old laptop, or borrow one. 2. Plug in a Linksys wireless PC card from Radio Shack. 3. Download the free NetStumbler shareware. 4. Find the source of the Wifi QRM. 5. Knock on his door and ask him to change his AP to a channel 7 - 11 (outside the Ham Band) 6. Reason: He's interfering with a licensed radio service (be nice!). 7. Return to your radio room and operate Mode S until LOS.
This is child's play guys! These are consumer grade wireless devices, not super computers. Fixing such local QRM issues is easier than solving the old fashioned TVI problems.
The most troublesome devices I have found , even to WiFi, are 2.4 GHz cordless phones. In that case the only solution I have found is to go next door and offer to buy him a replacement cordless phone of any type he would like EXCEPT one on 2.4 GHz. That is a cheap solution. They're usually not more than $79.95 while you probably have multiple Ks of $ invested in your satellite ground station.
For a bunch of supposedly sophisticated wireless guys, you sure don't know beans about consumer grade wireless devices. That includes our wonderfully dedicated but pessimistic AMSAT satellite engineers!
Now get on with the work, and get those birds into orbit! (HI).
Vy 73, John Champa, K8OCL AMSAT Life Member 1069
From: Luc Leblanc VE2DWE lucleblanc6@videotron.ca To: AMSAT-BB@amsat.org Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: S band interference solution Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2006 23:51:30 -0400
On 4 Oct 2006 at 20:11, Tim Tapio wrote:
Lets see....intentionally jamming another radio service?? I think not.
K4SHF
See to who they can sell their things first and if you can get one of them and still afford the price you will be able to use it to experiment only. There is also some 2.4GHZ muticoupler with up to 10 inputs who show up time to time on ebay if you feed them with 7 cheap wi-fi router each of them on a different channel and you can feed the output through an amplifier and on an omni high gain wi-fi antenna you will be able to experiment which one is making the better job...
The last one can be very disturbing that's why you will operate it for a very short period for an experimental purpose only!
Could be someone can provide an exterminator kit oups i want to wrote an experimenter kit for those who are not satisfied playing with a variac and a microwave oven with no door plus a door latch disable in their attic.
Fisherman are very patient as the fish is harder to cook with this method but it's legal aside of using an unsafe oven.
Yes it is a JOKE don't ever try to do that its dangerous but you can share your ideas and experiences with us. The use of a former ao-40 antenna can provided some added gain and directivity. You will be surprised how far you can go between 2 points and how quit the place became when you will listen 2 weeks after.
P.S. Is someone hit you on a side of your face turn your head to present him the other side...amen. Do what i tell not what i do a guy wearing a pair of sandals ever said.
Signed.. The colonel Sanders in the Asterix village.
"-" The medium is the message...The content is the audience...;)
Luc Leblanc VE2DWE WAC basic,CW,Phone,Satellite Skype VE2DWE www.qsl.net/ve2dwe _______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
On 5 Oct 2006 at 8:21, John Champa wrote:
I really do get bored reading about all these threats to Mode S from WiFi, etc.
For a bunch of supposedly sophisticated wireless guys, you sure don't know beans about consumer grade wireless devices. That includes our wonderfully dedicated but pessimistic AMSAT satellite engineers!
I agree... but it sometimes very hard to convince and ridicule may prove too much for some readers but it can be of some help for some stubborn minds who are not pessimistic but unrealistic.
"-" The medium is the message...The content is the audience...;)
Luc Leblanc VE2DWE WAC basic,CW,Phone,Satellite Skype VE2DWE www.qsl.net/ve2dwe
On 5 Oct 2006 at 8:21, John Champa wrote:
I really do get bored reading about all these threats to Mode S from WiFi, etc.
For a bunch of supposedly sophisticated wireless guys, you sure don't know beans about consumer grade wireless devices. That includes our wonderfully dedicated but pessimistic AMSAT satellite engineers!
Luc wrote:
I agree... but it sometimes very hard to convince and ridicule may prove too much for some readers but it can be of some help for some stubborn minds who are not pessimistic but unrealistic.
Some of these guys would complain if they were hung with a new rope, and I'll supply ALL THE ROPE THEY CAN USE !!!!
73, Dave wb6llo@amsat.org Disagree: I learn....
Pulling for P3E...
Dear AMSAT friends:
I would like to thank all of you for your wonderful positive support. I am on the 100-th hour I have given to AMSAT this week. In the next three weeks I wil spend four days doing mechanical design work on Eagle and four days doing computer work for Phase 3E and Eagle where we are attempting to bring up the computer bus system that will control the spacecraft.
Your constructive criticism, based on nearly completely FALSE information, has been a major source of inspiration for many VOLUNTEERS who do this work
The engineers recommended to the AMSAT-NA board of directors that we adopt a U/V/L/S standard transponder set for linear operation based upon SDX in its primary form. THIS IS A LINEAR TRANSPONDER SUITE. Our current calculations show that on V band it will be much louder than AO-13 and slightly louder than P3E on V. On S band downlink for Eagle we will be MUCH louder than AO-13 and significantly louder than AO-40.
The advanced communications package recommended to the AMSAT BOD will use two uplinks, L band and 3.4 GHZ. It has a proposed C band downlink. The system design proposes the use of the SAME 60cm dish that many of you have purchased from James Miller or Dave Olean will work perfectly with a proposed dual band feed/widget we are proposing and will design. The details of this work will be forthcoming in the next few months.
The user will need your AO-13/AO-40 station to operate the V/U/L/S packages and widget that you will not be able to easily build but will be able to purchase from some group like TAPR or Ettus or AMSAT. The single most expensive decision we have made is to have sufficient solar arrays to support both packages.
Please expect to see lots of details from us. An official announcement from the organization will appear on ANS and AMSAT web site shortly. I have requested a lot of money from the AMSAT board of directors to begin real work on details of this during the year 2007. This is in addition to the budget we have requested for our support activities for P3E.
Irrespective of all of the things said here about me and the unbelievable collection of the most high powered technical team we have assembled in a long time, we continue to work hard on your behalf. I am really personally disappointed in the level of discourse in the AMSAT BB. It is extremely harmful, possibly beyond repair, to our organization. We are seeking serious external funding, and we need to make a significant investment in many areas to get this spacecraft built. I have never been prouder of where the AMSAT-NA and AMSAT-DL engineers are going on your behalf than I am right now. I am very disappointed in the members of this forum. It is so damaging to our public image that if this does not improve and significantly, I will have to recommend that we end its current form. You are hurting your fellow satellite users and the VERY small number of volunteers who make serious personal sacrifices to build these things, and much larger number of volunteers who daily make quiet personal efforts in near silence on all our behalf. In my opinion, there is not a single member of the included thread who can hold their heads high and be proud of it.
Let me remind you once again. NO ONE speaks for AMSAT-NA outside of the entire board of directors who make policy and the five or so bylaws enabled officers. Anyone else may have influence. But until you hear the outcome from official channels. On P3E and AMSAT-DL, NO ONE outside of Peter Guelzow is considered by me to represent AMSAT-DL or Heike Straube on P3E.
In my opinion, you owe the organization and the members of this forum an apology. I don't care if none of you speak to me every again. But the members of the engineering team and the volunteer supprters holding official positions have been ill served by this.
Bob N4HY
Dave Guimont wrote:
On 5 Oct 2006 at 8:21, John Champa wrote:
I really do get bored reading about all these threats to Mode S from WiFi, etc.
For a bunch of supposedly sophisticated wireless guys, you sure don't know beans about consumer grade wireless devices. That includes our wonderfully dedicated but pessimistic AMSAT satellite engineers!
Luc wrote:
I agree... but it sometimes very hard to convince and ridicule may prove too much for some readers but it can be of some help for some stubborn minds who are not pessimistic but unrealistic.
Some of these guys would complain if they were hung with a new rope, and I'll supply ALL THE ROPE THEY CAN USE !!!!
73, Dave wb6llo@amsat.org Disagree: I learn.... Pulling for P3E...
On 6 Oct 2006 at 21:03, Robert McGwier wrote:
Dear AMSAT friends:
I would like to thank all of you for your wonderful positive support.
At my first quick look it is as Robert wrote and i quoted a very "wonderful positive support" for our shrinkink and aging hobby.
It often takes a tear to makes things that the crowd wants even if we believe it is wrong. As far i can remember some folks are actually loosing their lives for theses things.
These things can be regroup under the word "democracy" nobody will loose their life here but i am deeply convince it will be a very small step for AMSAT-NA towards gaining or regaining their membership support but a giant one for the EARTH amateur community even for our friends in south pacific. I just hope AMSAT-UK can take a note here.
Is this will make many of us changing their minds? as i said i quickly read over Robert post but if all the things remain the same i will also have to change my mind. and this is not an easy task...
ONLY FOOLS DIES..
To be continued...
"-" The medium is the message...The rest to follow...)
Luc Leblanc VE2DWE WAC basic,CW,Phone,Satellite Skype VE2DWE www.qsl.net/ve2dwe
----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert McGwier" rwmcgwier@comcast.net To: "Dave Guimont" dguimon1@san.rr.com Cc: amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Saturday, October 07, 2006 3:03 AM Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: S band interference solution
Dear AMSAT friends:
The advanced communications package recommended to the AMSAT BOD will use two uplinks, L band and 3.4 GHZ. It has a proposed C band downlink.
Bob N4HY
Hi Bob, N4HY
In Region-1 many countries including Italy are not allowed to use 3.4 GHz but in your report to EAGLE CSVHFS you writes:
" Some Things to Note # 3c
If we go ahead and use 9 cm for down-link then Amateurs would still be able to listen even from Region-1,even without a rules change (albeit illegally!) "
In my opinion the above proposal to use 9 cm albeit illegally for down-link seams to be viable.
Why to use instead the 9 cm band for uplink and make the life difficult for many of us in Region-1 not having the previlege to live in Region-2 and Region-3 ?
Best 73" de
i8CVS Domenico
John Champa wrote:
I really do get bored reading about all these threats to Mode S from WiFi, etc.
NOT!
These are 100 mW devices...maximum! That means they have to be relatively close to your QTH for you to hear them.
I've got one here that will happily do 250mW all day long... not that I run it that way. All it took was some alternate firmware to bypass the normal firmware's limits. However, 28mW is plenty to cover my house.
- Pick up your old laptop, or borrow one.
- Plug in a Linksys wireless PC card from Radio Shack.
- Download the free NetStumbler shareware.
- Find the source of the Wifi QRM.
4a. Explain to the nice Sheriff's deputy why you're walking around the neighborhood and into neighbor's yards with a laptop.
4b. Call your wife and ask her to come pick you up from jail. Explain to wife on the way home that you're not a "terrorist" as the Sheriff's summons for your later court date indicates.
- Knock on his door and ask him to change his AP to a channel 7 - 11
(outside the Ham Band)
5a. Listen to 1/2 hour tirade about how this guy bought the thing at the local Best Buy and they never told him about the ham band, and how he saw a UFO fly past your tower one night.
5b. Another 15-30 minutes talking about "What's that tower for, anyway?"
5c. Spent an hour in his basement with him, helping him click on simple web interfaces after you reset his router to a default password and have to set it up from scratch because he's forgotten his password... which turns out to be "beerrules" and is found on a Post-It note on the bottom of the router AFTER you've already reset it to factory defaults.
- Reason: He's interfering with a licensed radio service (be nice!).
6a. If you were dumb enough to point this out to Joe Sixpack, expect another 1/2 hour explaining Part 15. If you're lucky, Joe will offer you a beer at this point.
6b. If you're *REAL* lucky he might be interested in ham radio. (This is about the only good that can come of this.) Spend another hour today and many more Elmering. (Yay!)
- Return to your radio room and operate Mode S until LOS.
7a. The satellite passed over long ago and it's time for bed anyway.
7b. Alternatively Joe may have you "help me fix my computer while you're here", and you'll spend at least one weekend a month at the neighbor's house or another neighbor's house (once word gets around) dealing with their computer problems, virii, and other technical duties now that you're the "friendly computer guy in the big white house over there!"
This is child's play guys! These are consumer grade wireless devices, not super computers. Fixing such local QRM issues is easier than solving the old fashioned TVI problems.
No. The average public at least understood how their TV worked, or at least how to adjust a pair of rabbit ears. WiFi is "deep voodoo black magic" to the vast majority of the population in most neighborhoods today. They think they paid for a system that works perfectly, 100% of the time and they have their own "channel". Some have heard enough to turn on the WEP encryption in their routers (crackable, easily).
(Heck I've seen Engineers where I work stare and boggle at a simple Radio Frequency Spectrum chart, like the one you can download and print out from the NTIA. They always ask: "So where's my cell phone on here?")
The most troublesome devices I have found , even to WiFi, are 2.4 GHz cordless phones. In that case the only solution I have found is to go next door and offer to buy him a replacement cordless phone of any type he would like EXCEPT one on 2.4 GHz. That is a cheap solution. They're usually not more than $79.95 while you probably have multiple Ks of $ invested in your satellite ground station.
Yeah - move 'em up to 5.8 GHz! Oh... wait...
Maybe down to 900 MHz... Oh, oops... some of us are there too... hmmmm...
For a bunch of supposedly sophisticated wireless guys, you sure don't know beans about consumer grade wireless devices. That includes our wonderfully dedicated but pessimistic AMSAT satellite engineers!
I know plenty about them and know I'll end up the neighborhood tech support guy for them if I even THINK about talking to a neighbor about them. That and their utterly broken Windows 98 machines they THINK they need. Thanks to mass marketing... "Your child will be smarter if you buy them our operating system!" (No, it has nothing to do with genetics or the fact there isn't a single book in the house!)
Now get on with the work, and get those birds into orbit! (HI).
Ditto on that, at least! :-)
Vy 73, John Champa, K8OCL AMSAT Life Member 1069
Nate WY0X
These are 100 mW devices...maximum! That means they have to be relatively close to your QTH for you to hear them.
Two big words there. "Relateively" and "close"...
The laws of physics trumps all opinions...
All of these give the SAME power at your antenna: - A 100mW device at 1 mile - A 10 W device at 10 miles - a 1000W device at 100 miles.
Or this one: - A 100 mW device at 10 miles - A 10 Watt device at 100 miles - A 1000W device at 1000 miles LEO - A 400 Kw device at 20,000 miles GEO orbit
Now our birds do not have 400 Kw to downlink at S-band to overcome Your neighbor's WIFI at 10 miles away.
Even if you throw away 30 dB of antenna gain (the neighbor will not be in you main lobe, this then makes the 400W Satellite coming in your MAIN beam no stronger than a neighbor at 10 miles away with a 100mw device coming in the back of your dish.
Yes, it is only 100 mW, but when it is 20,000 times closer, it is 400,000,000 times stronger.
De WB4APR, Bob
participants (7)
-
Dave Guimont -
i8cvs -
John Champa -
Luc Leblanc VE2DWE -
Nate Duehr -
Robert Bruninga -
Robert McGwier