So I cut and pasted the new Doppler.SQF file from JE9PEL / Mineo Wakita site. Restarted, but none of the satellites will track frequency. I assume this is due to a difference in the naming conventions in the Kep file.
I use “NASA ALL” for my keps. Not certain which version Mineo uses for his.
Hate to complain about software when the proceeds are going to support AMSAT (much appreciated). But why does this have to be so difficult? It really should be as easy as “update Keps” and everything syncs.
Two pet peeves-
- The lack of standardization in how satellites are named. And then they change names. This causes confusion and incompatibility with software, tracking apps, etc. Why not settle on a standard and stick to it?
-The lack of modern GUI and user-friendly software for the amateur satellite community. If someone suggests open-source nonsense, my head might explode. Happy to pay handsomely for anyone who codes something to make this all easier.
When I find another few hours with nothing to do, I’ll try to edit the Doppler.SQF file to match, troubleshoot until it works, etc.
Thanks anyway. Probably won’t see me back on the birds this weekend. My hobby time is too limited.
73,
Les Rayburn, N1LF Maylene, AL EM63nf AMSAT #38965, ARRL Life Member, CVHS Life Member, SVHF Member
Les and others,
Sorry, but why is this so difficult?
Kepplerian elements are numerical data describing the orbit of a satellite. Math based on certain algorithms presented in 2 line format via service providers like Spacetrak and Celestrak generated by NORAD.
These “keps” will never include any information on what frequencies a satellite uses, since this is totally irrelevant and useless information for describing the orbit of a satellite. NORAD the originator of our orbital data does not, will not and should not care about a certain satellite frequency on 2m or 70cm. They just track orbital objects.
SatPC32 will use any 2 line element source you tell it to use and track the satellite just fine. For tracking it just needs that information. Now, SatPC32 also allows for doppler correction and radio control of frequencies. It is handled by a small text file called doppler.sqf. That file will need someone to tell it what the new frequencies are and for what satellite. The author of SatPC32 “Erich Eichman” has no idea, or crystal ball or visions in his dreams of which frequency a new satellite will use. That’s why he has given us the ability to edit the file as we seem fit.
The only requirement is that the name of the satellite matches the name of the satellite that you selected with your keps. How else would the software know? Any and all satellite tracking software that does doppler control will require some sort of that input. SatPC32 does not have a magical wand or AI to do that for you.
As of this moment we have maybe around 20 satellites that have some sort of amateur transponder and folks are finding it difficult editing a simple text file to match a satellite name and add some frequencies? All this information is available online.
Copying someone’s doppler.sqf file is also not a good idea! That file is customized by someone based on the keps and satellite name they are using and sometimes even specific for their location since SatPC32 lets you adjust the doppler control based on your location and satellite and internally adjust the doppler.sqf frequencies.
The author of SatPC32 has spent thousands of hours working on this program and he gets no financial return. He has donated the software to AMSAT and still updates it for new radios and features! Complaining about that is just not right!
Hope that helps.
73 Stefan VE4SW
On Sat, Jun 6, 2020 at 9:03 PM Les Rayburn via AMSAT-BB [email protected] wrote:
So I cut and pasted the new Doppler.SQF file from JE9PEL / Mineo Wakita site. Restarted, but none of the satellites will track frequency. I assume this is due to a difference in the naming conventions in the Kep file.
I use “NASA ALL” for my keps. Not certain which version Mineo uses for his.
Hate to complain about software when the proceeds are going to support AMSAT (much appreciated). But why does this have to be so difficult? It really should be as easy as “update Keps” and everything syncs.
Two pet peeves-
- The lack of standardization in how satellites are named. And then they
change names. This causes confusion and incompatibility with software, tracking apps, etc. Why not settle on a standard and stick to it?
-The lack of modern GUI and user-friendly software for the amateur satellite community. If someone suggests open-source nonsense, my head might explode. Happy to pay handsomely for anyone who codes something to make this all easier.
When I find another few hours with nothing to do, I’ll try to edit the Doppler.SQF file to match, troubleshoot until it works, etc.
Thanks anyway. Probably won’t see me back on the birds this weekend. My hobby time is too limited.
73,
Les Rayburn, N1LF Maylene, AL EM63nf AMSAT #38965, ARRL Life Member, CVHS Life Member, SVHF Member
Sent via [email protected]. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
If one has unlimited time, nothing is difficult. Most of us don’t. Some of us have very limited time for hobby activities and would rather spend it making contacts rather than editing text files.
There seem to be two fixes for this problem:
-Standardize on a single name for a given satellite. Then it will agree across multiple pieces of software and avoid confusion.
-Write a subroutine that will ensure that the naming convention of your Doppler.SQF file agrees with the Keps that you’re using in SatPC32, and correct it if necessary.
This would say thousands of hams from editing text files—saving crazy amounts of hours for the hobby overall. I’d be more than willing to support anyone who wants to write that code.
Your point is taken. But as I’ve said, I frequently must take hiatus from the hobby to do my work. It requires a lot of travel and massive hours devoted to each project that comes along. These can last weeks or months. If we have an active “launch period” during that time, I face this task over and over again.
This will make at least the 10th time I’ve gone through this exercise. It’s tiresome. The satellite community enjoys some fo the brightest hams in the hobby—yet we struggle with software to control our radios and track satellites that doesn’t have a modern GUI.
73,
Les Rayburn, N1LF Maylene, AL EM63nf AMSAT #38965, ARRL Life Member, CVHS Life Member, SVHF Member
On Jun 6, 2020, at 9:59 PM, Stefan Wagener [email protected] wrote:
Les and others,
Sorry, but why is this so difficult?
Kepplerian elements are numerical data describing the orbit of a satellite. Math based on certain algorithms presented in 2 line format via service providers like Spacetrak and Celestrak generated by NORAD.
These “keps” will never include any information on what frequencies a satellite uses, since this is totally irrelevant and useless information for describing the orbit of a satellite. NORAD the originator of our orbital data does not, will not and should not care about a certain satellite frequency on 2m or 70cm. They just track orbital objects.
SatPC32 will use any 2 line element source you tell it to use and track the satellite just fine. For tracking it just needs that information. Now, SatPC32 also allows for doppler correction and radio control of frequencies. It is handled by a small text file called doppler.sqf. That file will need someone to tell it what the new frequencies are and for what satellite. The author of SatPC32 “Erich Eichman” has no idea, or crystal ball or visions in his dreams of which frequency a new satellite will use. That’s why he has given us the ability to edit the file as we seem fit.
The only requirement is that the name of the satellite matches the name of the satellite that you selected with your keps. How else would the software know? Any and all satellite tracking software that does doppler control will require some sort of that input. SatPC32 does not have a magical wand or AI to do that for you.
As of this moment we have maybe around 20 satellites that have some sort of amateur transponder and folks are finding it difficult editing a simple text file to match a satellite name and add some frequencies? All this information is available online.
Copying someone’s doppler.sqf file is also not a good idea! That file is customized by someone based on the keps and satellite name they are using and sometimes even specific for their location since SatPC32 lets you adjust the doppler control based on your location and satellite and internally adjust the doppler.sqf frequencies.
The author of SatPC32 has spent thousands of hours working on this program and he gets no financial return. He has donated the software to AMSAT and still updates it for new radios and features! Complaining about that is just not right!
Hope that helps.
73 Stefan VE4SW
On Sat, Jun 6, 2020 at 9:03 PM Les Rayburn via AMSAT-BB <[email protected] mailto:[email protected]> wrote: So I cut and pasted the new Doppler.SQF file from JE9PEL / Mineo Wakita site. Restarted, but none of the satellites will track frequency. I assume this is due to a difference in the naming conventions in the Kep file.
I use “NASA ALL” for my keps. Not certain which version Mineo uses for his.
Hate to complain about software when the proceeds are going to support AMSAT (much appreciated). But why does this have to be so difficult? It really should be as easy as “update Keps” and everything syncs.
Two pet peeves-
- The lack of standardization in how satellites are named. And then they change names. This causes confusion and incompatibility with software, tracking apps, etc. Why not settle on a standard and stick to it?
-The lack of modern GUI and user-friendly software for the amateur satellite community. If someone suggests open-source nonsense, my head might explode. Happy to pay handsomely for anyone who codes something to make this all easier.
When I find another few hours with nothing to do, I’ll try to edit the Doppler.SQF file to match, troubleshoot until it works, etc.
Thanks anyway. Probably won’t see me back on the birds this weekend. My hobby time is too limited.
73,
Les Rayburn, N1LF Maylene, AL EM63nf AMSAT #38965, ARRL Life Member, CVHS Life Member, SVHF Member
Sent via [email protected] mailto:[email protected]. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Stupid question time:
Every TLE requires the satellite number, which as I understand is in fact a unique identifier for the satellite (once the correct ID number has been sorted out and matched up with the appropriate satellite after the confusion of launch). Even though the name of the satellite can vary, this ID number is effectively the GUID for the satellite and does not change during the satellite's lifetime. Correct?
If that's the case, then why wouldn't it be possible to have a small tweak made to SatPC32 -- perhaps as an option at first to facilitate testing and backwards compatibility -- to use the satellite number *instead of the name* as the key column for the doppler.sqf file (and any other configuration files) that refer to satellites?
It seems to me that something like this would immediately solve a lot of small but recurrent issues and annoyances. The name field can become simply a human-readable label and not have to serve double-duty -- allowing users to switch between multiple TLE sources without having to worry that they're giving satellites different names (and having to go hunt down and replace all the entries in your various .SQF files).
-- Devin L. Ganger (WA7DLG) email: [email protected] web: Devin on Earth cell: +1 425.239.2575
It appears that the issue of satellite naming conventions may be coming to a head quickly. Noted in the AMSAT Weekly News Service Bulletin:
https://celestrak.com/NORAD/documentation/gp-data-formats.php https://celestrak.com/NORAD/documentation/gp-data-formats.php
This may force a revision to how SatPC32 handles Kep files—and perhaps provide the opportunity to improve things in terms of updates.
Ideally, the software would keep any adjustments that have been made by the operator for individual satellites but update when new birds are launched.
73,
Les Rayburn, N1LF Maylene, AL EM63nf AMSAT #38965, ARRL Life Member, CVHS Life Member, SVHF Member
This subject isn't new and therefor SatPC32 already has the AmsatNames.txt config file.
Look at the AmsatNames.txt in your SatPC32 config directory.
; This file contains the AMSAT names of actual amateur radio ; satellites. The auxiliary file SatRename evaluates this file ; to replace the satellite names used in Space-Track TLE ; data files with their AMSAT names. ; ; Column #1 contains the 5-digit "Identification Number" used in ; TLE files (data line #1, columns 3 - 7). ; ; Column #2 contains the satellite's 8-digit "International ; Designator" (data line #1, columns 10 - 17), ; ; Column #3 contains the satellite's AMSAT name. ; ; When a new satellie is available, it can be added to this list. ; Note, that the "Identification Number" and the "International ; Designator" must contain a fix number of digits. ; ; 07530 74089B AO-07 14129 83058B AO-10 20439 90005D AO-16 22825 93061C AO-27 26609 00072B AO-40 27605 02058A AO-49 28375 04025K AO-51
On 07-06-2020 11:27, Les Rayburn via AMSAT-BB wrote:
It appears that the issue of satellite naming conventions may be coming to a head quickly. Noted in the AMSAT Weekly News Service Bulletin:
https://celestrak.com/NORAD/documentation/gp-data-formats.php https://celestrak.com/NORAD/documentation/gp-data-formats.php
This may force a revision to how SatPC32 handles Kep files—and perhaps provide the opportunity to improve things in terms of updates.
Ideally, the software would keep any adjustments that have been made by the operator for individual satellites but update when new birds are launched.
73,
Les Rayburn, N1LF Maylene, AL EM63nf AMSAT #38965, ARRL Life Member, CVHS Life Member, SVHF Member
Devin,
<If that's the case, then why wouldn't it be possible to have a small tweak <made to SatPC32 -- perhaps as an option at first to facilitate testing and <backwards compatibility -- to use the satellite number *instead of the name* <as the key column for the DOPPLER.SQF file (and any other configuration files) <that refer to satellites?
Great news. That functionality has been in SatPC32 for years. Look at ? | Auxiliary Files |AmsatNames.txt. It does what you describe by allowing you to define a name for a satellite to be used with a catalog number (or international identifier) and substitutes your chosen name for all internal operations such as the CTCSS tone, tracking priority, Doppler calculations, etc. Very handy since AMSAT, CelesTrak, Space-Track, and often the individual satellite operators, use slightly different names. It is also handy when there is a "shotgun launch" and everybody is trying to sort out which satellite matches which object number. One change with each object number, and you are ready.
73,
Alan WA4SCA
Alan,
I'm looking at the documentation and the format of the Doppler.SQF file. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding something here, but what you're talking about does not seem to be what I suggested.
Column 1 in Doppler.SQF is still the *name* of the satellite, rather than the satellite number or international identifier or some other invariant attribute of the satellite.
Does that name have to match up to what is in the TLE file, or what is in the AmsatNames.txt file?
That is, if I am using the AmsatNames.txt file and define a custom name for a given satellite, do the rest of my data files (other than the TLEs) then need to be modified to use the name I defined in AmsatNames.txt? Does the AmsatNames.txt file permit SatPC32 to ignore the name that my selected TLE source is using for that same satellite?
Thanks in advance,
-- Devin L. Ganger (WA7DLG) email: [email protected] web: Devin on Earth cell: +1 425.239.2575
-----Original Message----- From: AMSAT-BB [email protected] On Behalf Of Alan via AMSAT-BB Sent: Sunday, June 7, 2020 4:34 AM To: AMSAT-BB [email protected] Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Satellite Hiatus--Doppler.SQF
Devin,
<If that's the case, then why wouldn't it be possible to have a small tweak <made to SatPC32 -- perhaps as an option at first to facilitate testing and <backwards compatibility -- to use the satellite number *instead of the name* <as the key column for the DOPPLER.SQF file (and any other configuration files) <that refer to satellites?
Great news. That functionality has been in SatPC32 for years. Look at ? | Auxiliary Files |AmsatNames.txt. It does what you describe by allowing you to define a name for a satellite to be used with a catalog number (or international identifier) and substitutes your chosen name for all internal operations such as the CTCSS tone, tracking priority, Doppler calculations, etc. Very handy since AMSAT, CelesTrak, Space-Track, and often the individual satellite operators, use slightly different names. It is also handy when there is a "shotgun launch" and everybody is trying to sort out which satellite matches which object number. One change with each object number, and you are ready.
73,
Alan WA4SCA
Sent via [email protected]. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Devin,
Notice I said that the functionality is there, not the identical implementation. You need to call the satellite something. While you could certainly used the catalog name, something more user friendly is better. See my replies below.
73,
Alan WA4SCA
<-----Original Message----- <From: Devin L. Ganger [mailto:[email protected]] <Sent: Sunday, June 7, 2020 3:39 PM <To: Alan [email protected]; AMSAT bbs [email protected] <Subject: RE: [amsat-bb] Satellite Hiatus--Doppler.SQF < <Alan, < <I'm looking at the documentation and the format of the Doppler.SQF file. <Perhaps I'm misunderstanding something here, but what you're talking about <does not seem to be what I suggested. < <Column 1 in Doppler.SQF is still the *name* of the satellite, rather than the <satellite number or international identifier or some other invariant attribute of <the satellite.
Correct. The problem is that the various tle providers are not consistent about that. What you want to do is to be able to pick something, anything, and then use whatever source you want without having to redefine several files. < <Does that name have to match up to what is in the TLE file, or what is in the <AmsatNames.txt file?
It needs to match whatever you have defined in AmsatNames.txt, as does the name in the priority and tone files.
< <That is, if I am using the AmsatNames.txt file and define a custom name for a <given satellite, do the rest of my data files (other than the TLEs) then need to <be modified to use the name I defined in AmsatNames.txt?
Yes. One time operation.
Does the <AmsatNames.txt file permit SatPC32 to ignore the name that my selected TLE <source is using for that same satellite? <
Yes, that is its purpose. It substitutes your preferred name for all internal operations. IE, it completely ignores the 1st line of the 3 line elements.
<Thanks in advance, < < <-- <Devin L. Ganger (WA7DLG) <email: [email protected] <web: Devin on Earth <cell: +1 425.239.2575 < <> -----Original Message----- <> From: AMSAT-BB [email protected] On Behalf Of Alan via <> AMSAT-BB <> Sent: Sunday, June 7, 2020 4:34 AM <> To: AMSAT-BB [email protected] <> Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Satellite Hiatus--Doppler.SQF <> <> Devin, <> <> <If that's the case, then why wouldn't it be possible to have a small tweak <> <made to SatPC32 -- perhaps as an option at first to facilitate testing and <> <backwards compatibility -- to use the satellite number *instead of the <name* <> <as the key column for the DOPPLER.SQF file (and any other configuration <> files) <that refer to satellites? <> <> Great news. That functionality has been in SatPC32 for years. Look at ? | <> Auxiliary Files |AmsatNames.txt. It does what you describe by allowing you <to <> define a name for a satellite to be used with a catalog number (or <> international identifier) and substitutes your chosen name for all internal <> operations such as the CTCSS tone, tracking priority, Doppler calculations, <etc. <> Very handy since AMSAT, CelesTrak, Space-Track, and often the individual <> satellite operators, use slightly different names. It is also handy when there <is <> a "shotgun launch" and everybody is trying to sort out which satellite <matches <> which object number. One change with each object number, and you are <> ready. <> <> 73, <> <> Alan <> WA4SCA <> <> <> <> <> _______________________________________________ <> Sent via [email protected]. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum <available <> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. <Opinions <> expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official <views <> of AMSAT-NA. <> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite <> program! <> Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
That's awesome, thank you for taking the time to answer in detail.
Why don't more responses on this list point people to this functionality? Is it not well known?
-- Devin L. Ganger (WA7DLG) email: [email protected] web: Devin on Earth cell: +1 425.239.2575
-----Original Message----- From: Alan [email protected] Sent: Sunday, June 7, 2020 1:55 PM To: Devin L. Ganger [email protected] Cc: AMSAT-BB [email protected] Subject: RE: [amsat-bb] Satellite Hiatus--Doppler.SQF
Devin,
Notice I said that the functionality is there, not the identical implementation. You need to call the satellite something. While you could certainly used the catalog name, something more user friendly is better. See my replies below.
73,
Alan WA4SCA
<-----Original Message----- <From: Devin L. Ganger [mailto:[email protected]] <Sent: Sunday, June 7, 2020 3:39 PM <To: Alan [email protected]; AMSAT bbs [email protected] <Subject: RE: [amsat-bb] Satellite Hiatus--Doppler.SQF < <Alan, < <I'm looking at the documentation and the format of the Doppler.SQF file. <Perhaps I'm misunderstanding something here, but what you're talking about <does not seem to be what I suggested. < <Column 1 in Doppler.SQF is still the *name* of the satellite, rather than the <satellite number or international identifier or some other invariant attribute of <the satellite.
Correct. The problem is that the various tle providers are not consistent about that. What you want to do is to be able to pick something, anything, and then use whatever source you want without having to redefine several files. < <Does that name have to match up to what is in the TLE file, or what is in the <AmsatNames.txt file?
It needs to match whatever you have defined in AmsatNames.txt, as does the name in the priority and tone files.
< <That is, if I am using the AmsatNames.txt file and define a custom name for a <given satellite, do the rest of my data files (other than the TLEs) then need to <be modified to use the name I defined in AmsatNames.txt?
Yes. One time operation.
Does the <AmsatNames.txt file permit SatPC32 to ignore the name that my selected TLE
<source is using for that same satellite? <
Yes, that is its purpose. It substitutes your preferred name for all internal operations. IE, it completely ignores the 1st line of the 3 line elements.
<Thanks in advance, < < <-- <Devin L. Ganger (WA7DLG) <email: [email protected] <web: Devin on Earth <cell: +1 425.239.2575 < <> -----Original Message----- <> From: AMSAT-BB [email protected] On Behalf Of Alan via <> AMSAT-BB <> Sent: Sunday, June 7, 2020 4:34 AM <> To: AMSAT-BB [email protected] <> Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Satellite Hiatus-- Doppler.SQF <> <> Devin, <> <> <If that's the case, then why wouldn't it be possible to have a small tweak <> <made to SatPC32 -- perhaps as an option at first to facilitate testing and <> <backwards compatibility -- to use the satellite number *instead of the <name* <> <as the key column for the DOPPLER.SQF file (and any other configuration <> files) <that refer to satellites? <> <> Great news. That functionality has been in SatPC32 for years. Look at ? | <> Auxiliary Files |AmsatNames.txt. It does what you describe by allowing you <to <> define a name for a satellite to be used with a catalog number (or <> international identifier) and substitutes your chosen name for all internal <> operations such as the CTCSS tone, tracking priority, Doppler calculations, <etc. <> Very handy since AMSAT, CelesTrak, Space-Track, and often the individual <> satellite operators, use slightly different names. It is also handy when there <is <> a "shotgun launch" and everybody is trying to sort out which satellite <matches <> which object number. One change with each object number, and you are <> ready. <> <> 73, <> <> Alan <> WA4SCA <> <> <> <> <> _______________________________________________ <> Sent via [email protected]. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum <available <> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. <Opinions <> expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official <views <> of AMSAT-NA. <> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite <> program! <> Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Thanks for your input.
“Copying someone’s doppler.sqf file is also not a good idea! That file is customized by someone based on the keps and satellite name they are using and sometimes even specific for their location since SatPC32 lets you adjust the doppler control based on your location and satellite and internally adjust the doppler.sqf frequencies.”
Okay so send the matching TLE file when sending a custom Doppler.sqf file. If they changed the name of the bird in the TLE to match the Doppler file, than that TLE file should be made available. We do thank the ones that provide the Doppler file but let’s make it make sense.
“The author of SatPC32 has spent thousands of hours working on this program and he gets no financial return. He has donated the software to AMSAT and still updates it for new radios and features! Complaining about that is just not right!”
Umm, I paid for the software so I don’t know what this means. This group is used to troubleshoot and ask questions about the program, among other things, so that’s what’s being done here.
We’re at a time where everyone feels a need to add an opinion. That’s great, I just ask that it’s helpful and productive.
Have a nice day everyone, 73
Joe KD2NFC
Sent from my iPad
On Jun 6, 2020, at 11:05 PM, Stefan Wagener via AMSAT-BB [email protected] wrote:
Copying someone’s doppler.sqf file is also not a good idea! That file is customized by someone based on the keps and satellite name they are using and sometimes even specific for their location since SatPC32 lets you adjust the doppler control based on your location and satellite and internally adjust the doppler.sqf frequencies.
The author of SatPC32 has spent thousands of hours working on this program and he gets no financial return. He has donated the software to AMSAT and still updates it for new radios and features! Complaining about that is just not right!
participants (6)
-
Alan -
Devin L. Ganger -
KD2NFC, Joe Puma -
Les Rayburn -
PE0SAT | Amateur Radio -
Stefan Wagener