Re: S band and Eagle: an appeal for a higher level discussion
At the risk of bodily attack, let me offer some comments on the topic that has produced so much AMSAT-BB traffic. The Eagle Mode-S decision was made at the conclusion of an intense, but very productive design meeting held in San Diego, just 2 months ago, at the end of June.
In case you feel that we haven't told you what went on and why the radical changes, please refer to the very latest (July/August) AMSAT JOURNAL for some of the details of the meeting. In particular, I ask you to read Rick's (W2GPS) editorial on Page 3, and Bob's (N4HY) "Engineering Notebook" beginning with "Warning: Honesty Follows" on pages 9/10, and the Jim's (WB4GCS) Eagle Update on pages 24/25. Also, you can glean some details of the meeting and its conclusions in the K3IO/N4HY presentation at the Central States VHF Society (CSVHFS) Meeting in July; that material is on my personal website at http://mysite.verizon.net/~w3iwi/EAGLE_CSVHFS.pdf http://mysite.verizon.net/%7Ew3iwi/EAGLE_CSVHFS.pdf (~3.9 MB in size) or in its full-blown (a huge 19MB in size) PowerPoint version as http://mysite.verizon.net/~w3iwi/EAGLE_CSVHFS.ppt http://mysite.verizon.net/%7Ew3iwi/EAGLE_CSVHFS.ppt.
As you can see from the pictures in Bob's Engineering Notebook, the meeting included your AMSAT President (W2GPS), VP of Engineering (N4HY), Eagle Project Manager (WB4GCS) and two Board members (W2GPS & K3IO). To answer one oft-posed question, the entire Board has not met since the June meeting; the material constitutes the current "best guess" engineering forecast, and the Board has been told of the conclusions (and they have read the Journal); but as of now no votes have been taken. Feel free to contact the Board members if you feel that your desires have not been taken into consideration. A full list appears on Page 3 of the Journal, and all can be reached by Email addressed to call@amsat.org.
After the design group went through careful estimates of the link budgets for each of the classes of users we considered (see Jim's paper on Page 24 and/or my CSVHFS presentation), and considered the feasibility of making the spacecraft work, we came to the conclusion that my C-C Rider concept wouldn't fly; there was no way we could obtain enough T/R isolation for full-duplex operation, and using half-duplex with the time delays associated with a satellite 40,000 km away was impractical. C'est la vie.
We considered the RFI environment carefully (see my CSVHFS paper for details) as it would exist 10 years from now. Why 10 years? Well, it will take us 3-4 years to fly Eagle, and then we hope it will last and be useful for at least a decade, so a 10 year forecast seemed about right. In that time frame, many of us (me especially) feel that the European Galileo GNSS (Global Navigation Satellite System, i.e. GPS) (and possibly similar systems being designed in Japan & China) will have prime DOWNLINK signals overlaying our 1260-1270 MHz UPLINK band. The signals being sent down may well be deemed critical for "Safety of Life" services; it is not unlikely (double negative used intentionally) that administrations may cancel out our L-band uplink so those "damned Hams can't cause an A380 with 500 people on board to crash!". Since weight, power and volunteer engineering talent are all finite resources, we came to the conclusion that it was not prudent for us to invest in an L-band uplink. C'est la vie.
We then considered the S1 (13 cm) and S2 (9 cm) allocations. It's a pity that amateurs cannot use the S2 = 9 cm (3400 MHz) band in Region 1; it would be PERFECT as an alternate to L-band. I argued long and hard for it and was beaten down. However, it might find some use for telemetry downlinks. The 10 GHz = X-band and higher microwave frequencies were considered as possible interesting channels for experimental use, but not really practical for "heavy lifting" transponders. C'est la vie. I'll come back to S1 & C-band in a bit.
During the discussions we put in hard numbers for each of the possible bands for each of the classes of users we envisioned (See Jim's article on Page 23 and my slides). We were already planning on the use of a Mode-B (70 cm up, 2M down) Software Defined Transponder (SDX) which would be PERFECT for the legacy "Class-0" users. We then discussed our desire for a new Class-1 service. This is envisioned as a service which can send short text messages from portable hand-held terminals, rather like the SMS messaging service in wide use by teen-agers and similar to Bob Bruninga's APRS messaging. The idea is based in a desire to have Amateur Radio ready for the next Katrina or Christmas Tsunami disaster. When we put in the link budget numbers for hand-held terminals (including antennas) with a satellite at 40,000 km range, it also dictated the use of Mode-B. (Detailed spreadsheets justifying this conclusion are posted on EaglePedia). In fact, Fran Brickle (AB2KT) is already hard at work on the protocol and SDX code and plans to present a paper at San Diego.
Now let's turn our attention to the controversial S-band topic. Jan King (W3GEY/VK4GEY) presented quantitative results that he and Kerry Banke (N6IZW) had obtained in San Diego, Palo Alto & Queensland on the 2.4 GHz RFI environment. He indicated that, even in the midst of a field hundreds of meters from the nearest building, the RFI levels were 20+ dB above thermal as seen with a non-directional antenna. Others in the meeting reported anecdotal data that noise levels in some small towns had increased 60+ dB in three years since WiFi systems were installed. Several people in the meeting told the effects of the newer (802.11G and 802.11DraftN) 50-100 Mbit/s systems and discussed plans that they new industry had in the pipeline that will make the situation even worse. This is especially true on the 10+ year time scales that Eagle must be designed for. In my CSVHFS paper, you will see a slide that says "S-Band is a Sewer". Part of this is our own inadvertent fault. With AO-40 & AO-51, we use S-Band in a receive mode. The non-licensed users have no idea that we are occupying the frequency. What better way to clear them out (now here's a radical thought) than by TRANSMITTING instead of receiving! And we noted the easy availability of surplus S-band power amplifiers at the 5-30 watt level. Thus S-band lost its "beauty" for downlink and became a band for uplinks. And we noted that in locations where a fairly high power ATV repeater was operating on S-band, the QRM was a LOT less.
Yes, this decision was based on incomplete data. It would be wonderful if many of you took the challenge to make quantitative measurements of the S-band RFI levels in multiple locations. Just take your S-band LNA, put on a low-gain antenna and measure the difference in background noise level between that antenna and a 50 ohm dummy load as accurately as you can. You will get better accuracy if you can use a wide measurement bandwidth (10-100 kHz or so). Remember to disable your receiver's AGC. A good spectrum analyzer would be an excellent choice to use as the detector. Please feel free to send me any such measurements along with notes on the equipment you used and the environment where you made the tests (urban, rural, etc). My Email address is mailto:K3IO@verizon.net.
Since L and S2 had been ruled out for reasons described above, this left us with the possibility of using C-band as a DOWNLINK. There are some concerns about the 802.11A/cordless phone/etc QRM, but we noted that the Amateur Satellite DOWNLINK band is above most of the crap (5830-5850 MHz). The work I had done on C-C Rider had shown that, with a phased array antenna and a power amplifier at each element, we could generate adequate power so that a Class-A user with a 50 cm diameter (i.e. DirecTV) dish would have good performance.
The S/C links were designed as digital links. The uplink signals would have error correction coding that would be decoded at the spacecraft, and then sent down with "fresh" codes on the downlink. This makes the satellite links much easier (by tens of dB) than if they were "bent pipe" linear links. The users would be able to use any type of signal they desire (Voice, SSTV or even CW). In all this design work, we took into account that the typical user does not have the digital and S/C RF widgets. The plan is to develop the user's hardware at the same time, in parallel with the spacecraft hardware; AMSAT would then make this available to all. We envisioned using the TAPR TNC-2 model -- TAPR "seeded" the community by distributing a few hundred kits, and then licensed the design to commercial manufacturers.
In conclusion, I ask you, the satellite users to consider what will be the state-of-the-art and the state of amateur radio in the window 5-15 years from now. It may be painful to admit that you invested in an S-band down converted and barbecue grill dish for a now-defunct AO-40. Just consider the big picture -- I've been around long enough to think back on the early 70s: People had cobbled together 2M CW transmitters for use on Mode-A with AO-6. Then AO-7 came along with Mode-B and the loud cry went up "Now we have to throw away our 2M transmitters and then figure out how to make a transmitter that can work on UHF!!". And when the lower frequency transmitters failed on AO-40, people had to listen on S-band. Admit it -- it wasn't all that hard to accept new technology.
73 de Tom, K3IO
Tom Clark, K3IO wrote:
We considered the RFI environment carefully (see my CSVHFS paper for details) as it would exist 10 years from now. Why 10 years? Well, it will take us 3-4 years to fly Eagle, and then we hope it will last and be useful for at least a decade, so a 10 year forecast seemed about right. In that time frame, many of us (me especially) feel that the European Galileo GNSS (Global Navigation Satellite System, i.e. GPS) (and possibly similar systems being designed in Japan & China) will have prime DOWNLINK signals overlaying our 1260-1270 MHz UPLINK band. The signals being sent down may well be deemed critical for "Safety of Life" services; it is not unlikely (double negative used intentionally) that administrations may cancel out our L-band uplink so those "damned Hams can't cause an A380 with 500 people on board to crash!". Since weight, power and volunteer engineering talent are all finite resources, we came to the conclusion that it was not prudent for us to invest in an L-band uplink. C'est la vie.
Sigh....a bit of paranoia here?
Galileo should be a bit more immune to jamming than our current GPS system due to the signal structure they will employ. But, they are still going to have to make provisions for unwanted signals.
It doesn't take much to knock GPS off the air...there have been a number of documented cases of aircraft loosing GPS tracking due to terrestrial interference. The threat of interference by a regulated body such as amateur radio is far less than the threat presented by an uncontrolled group of terrorists. Navigation system designers, be it GPS or Galileo, are going to have to count on interference (jamming) as a fact of life and make provisions for it.
Perhaps yanking the amateur allocation is one of those steps, but that would only address a minority problem...and leave the other, far greater threat, unchecked.
Regards -- Bruce
At 09:13 PM 9/8/2006, Bruce Rahn wrote:
Tom Clark, K3IO wrote:
We considered the RFI environment carefully (see my CSVHFS paper for details) as it would exist 10 years from now. Why 10 years? Well, it will take us 3-4 years to fly Eagle, and then we hope it will last and be useful for at least a decade, so a 10 year forecast seemed about right. In that time frame, many of us (me especially) feel that the European Galileo GNSS (Global Navigation Satellite System, i.e. GPS) (and possibly similar systems being designed in Japan & China) will have prime DOWNLINK signals overlaying our 1260-1270 MHz UPLINK band. The signals being sent down may well be deemed critical for "Safety of Life" services; it is not unlikely (double negative used intentionally) that administrations may cancel out our L-band uplink so those "damned Hams can't cause an A380 with 500 people on board to crash!". Since weight, power and volunteer engineering talent are all finite resources, we came to the conclusion that it was not prudent for us to invest in an L-band uplink. C'est la vie.
Sigh....a bit of paranoia here?
No, just a lot more insight and experience than you have ... Clark and McGwier are plugged into a lot of places you could not have a clue about, and therefore know just a few things you don't ....
Now I know why I try to avoid reading this list ... the lack of civility is appalling.
Dave VE3GYQ/W8 Spencerville, OH
On 8 Sep 2006 at 1:04, Tom Clark, K3IO wrote:
Yes, this decision was based on incomplete data. It would be wonderful if many of you took the challenge to make quantitative measurements of the S-band RFI levels in multiple locations. Just take your S-band LNA, put on a low-gain antenna and measure the difference in background noise level between that antenna and a 50 ohm dummy load as accurately as you can. You will get better accuracy if you can use a wide measurement bandwidth (10-100 kHz or so). Remember to disable your receiver's AGC. A good spectrum analyzer would be an excellent choice to use as the detector. Please feel free to send me any such measurements along with notes on the equipment you used and the environment where you made the tests (urban, rural, etc). My Email address is mailto:K3IO@verizon.net.
As we are surrounding by engineers (a necessary sickness in this new century) Joke! the test Tom Clark propose is challenging. A PCR 1000 can do the job i think. If time permit this week end i will try the test.
There is a lot of jokes about engineers here as when something goes wrong it is never due to their work but it is in the application of their plans... The fist thing they learn is to never used the word error or when they fart it always smell rose.
You know i make a couple of QSO on AO-51 last week on the V/S mode with the same set up i was using on AO-40 i remember where the noise level was in 2003 and i also remember the nature of this QRM Pop Pop hiss swishing sound and son on. What i remark different was the poping sound, there was more pops than 3 years ago! but they seems to conteract between them. (the has been perform in SSB not in FM)
The antenna was pointing at the horizon but as soon as i elevated the antenna the noise drastically reduce to a point where i am sure AO-40 phone QSO will be possible (If he was there...)
In my town we have one 2 lane highway. In the Washington area i have on in mind the 395 the belt way as they called it if i'm remembered correctly. i can assume the traffic is matching accordingly with the highways as the noise level in both places.
It's cute to see a lot of calculus to tell us the S band is unusable but why i try to switch in CW at LOS with a 2 degree elevation playing with the DSP settings in a way to make this rare one buried in the noise and the pop pop QRM from the cordless phone? Why i do this if the calculus told me i cannot hear anything?
This story happens 3 years ago and the station was a VU and this one give me my WAC satellite endorsement (Hope to get it soon..)
I am not an engineers but an amateur radio operator read my lips here AMATEUR take out your dictionary and check the definition. A ham work in a QRM QRN interference world and it was what i experience since 1971.
Will i be able to do the same when P3E and Eagle will eventually be in space i answer yes, is the S band will be as noise as of today no as when i make my SSB test i scan from 2.1 to 2.7 ghz and all the analog phone seems to vanish i repeat the test at a couple of time at different hours and there is no more analog phone around!
Yes my wife microwave oven still bothers me (It is my microwave oven when i used it:) but a lot of QRM disappear remains the frequency hoping phones but most of the traffic on satellite is often done at night or in the evening where the phones are less uses.
Bottom line i will posted my results with Tom test.
"-" The medium is the message...The content is the audience...;)
Luc Leblanc VE2DWE Skype VE2DWE www.qsl.net/ve2dwe
It's my fault - I worked AO-40 on opening day, it was fun signals were strong. Before AO-40 quit working, it was unuseable due to RF polution here in densely populated South Dakota. I pined for the good old days of AO-13 and mode B. So I guess the change was made for me.
The good news is you probably already have a mode B station. Remove the heavy dish and delicate downconverter and replace it with a cheap, lightweight and easy to homebrew yagi.
73, Joe AMSAT # 21357
You know i make a couple of QSO on AO-51 last week on the V/S mode with the same set up i was using on AO-40 i remember where the noise level was in 2003 and i also remember the nature of this QRM Pop Pop hiss swishing sound and son on. What i remark different was the poping sound, there was more pops than 3 years ago! but they seems to conteract between them. (the has been perform in SSB not in FM)
The antenna was pointing at the horizon but as soon as i elevated the antenna the noise drastically reduce to a point where i am sure AO-40 phone QSO will be possible (If he was there...)
My point exactly. Here my antennas must be elevated to at least 25 - 35 degrees to get a shot at the sky (in most directions) just to see the sky. With S Band I probably need 40 degrees or more. So tests done at low elevation are of no concern to me. I wish I had horizon to horizon view of the sky for satellites but the trees keep the house and buildings much cooler here in the summer so i do not complain. I work sats in the winter when the leaves are gone.
As more and more phones and computer networks go digital and move to 5.8 ghz I think that will actually clear the 2.4 ghz band for us. Just a layman's opinion.
Les W4SCO
On 9 Sep 2006 at 8:56, sco@sco-inc.com wrote:
As more and more phones and computer networks go digital and move to 5.8 ghz I think that will actually clear the 2.4 ghz band for us. Just a layman's opinion.
Les W4SCO
There is my three steps for solving the actual 2.4ghz QRM
step one:I am not an engineer but in this calculus trend did this variable X=rate of move from 2.4 to 5.8ghz has been taken in account?
Step two:Revise all the calculus and prediction including my X variable and if results are unacceptable go to step 3
Step three:Wait 6 months and GOTO step one.
Assuming a rate of decreased is it logic to believe when eagle will be in space the S band could be as 49mhz is today? just give a look at 49mhz it is more quiet than a couple of years ago some baby monitor here and there
"-" The medium is the message...The content is the audience...;)
Luc Leblanc VE2DWE Skype VE2DWE www.qsl.net/ve2dwe
participants (6)
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Bruce Rahn
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David B. Toth
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Gary "Joe" Mayfield
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Luc Leblanc VE2DWE
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sco@sco-inc.com
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Tom Clark, K3IO