NASA is NOT exempt from ITAR. Most of the documents I handle for work are now marked "US export controlled". Why do you think I haven't given any Hubble talks at recent Amsat meetings? NASA has to jump through the same legal hoops as everyone else, but they have lawyers on the payroll already so it is not a big burden. NASA's budget for photocopy paper is many times larger than Amsat's total budget.
Amsat is not the only outfit affected by ITAR, a lot of small businesses are being shut down by an inability to export their products. It is their complaints that have attracted the attention of the Obama campaign, whose space policy states that:
"Revising Regulations for Aerospace Export Control: Some sections of the International Traffic in Arms Regulations (ITAR) have unduly hampered the competitiveness of domestic aerospace industry. Outdated restrictions have cost billions of dollars to American satellite and space hardware manufacturers as customers have decided to purchase equipment from European suppliers. While protecting our national security interests, Barack Obama will direct a review of the ITAR to reevaluate restrictions imposed on American companies, with a special focus on space hardware that is currently restricted from commercial export. He will also direct revisions to the licensing process to ensure that American suppliers are competitive in the international aerospace markets, without jeopardizing American national security."
McCain has not made any such statements in his space policy, but those who support his campaign should get in touch with him and try to get it added on.
We should be making complaints to elected representatives about how our organization is being affected by ITAR. Our organization is sufficiently different from commercial for-profit companies that our specific needs should be considered along with those of small business, in particular our desire to conduct the project in "open-source" mode.
If I understand correctly, if the IHU3 was an engine control computer for a car, it would be OK to work with the Germans, but since it is designed to go into a satellite, it is forbidden to share it with foreigners. Very Strange.
While we are sorting this out, keep in mind that this subject WILL come up at the Symposium/Annual Meeting next month. We better have a good presentation for the membership at that time. If you want to print anything in the published proceedings, I will need your material by the end of September.
Dan Schultz N8FGV
------ Original Message ------ Received: Tue, 09 Sep 2008 11:37:28 PM EDT From: Louis McFadin w5did@amsat.org To: Chuck Green greencl@mindspring.comCc: "'EAGLE'" eagle@amsat.org Subject: [eagle] Re: ITAR BS
Chuck, I would like to point out that any work on ARISS is exempt since it is a government activity NASA. You are free to help ARISS all you want.
Actel has just introduced "rad tolerant" flash-based FPGAs. These use the *identical* silicon die as the commercial ProASIC 3 devices. These are what we specified (and purchased) for the SDX for Eagle.
< URL:http://www.actel.com/products/milaero/rtpa3/default.aspx >
73,
Lyle KK7P
Cool - this is the FPGA I work with!
On Mon, Sep 15, 2008 at 4:56 PM, Lyle Johnson kk7p@wavecable.com wrote:
Actel has just introduced "rad tolerant" flash-based FPGAs. These use the *identical* silicon die as the commercial ProASIC 3 devices. These are what we specified (and purchased) for the SDX for Eagle.
< URL:http://www.actel.com/products/milaero/rtpa3/default.aspx >
73,
Lyle KK7P
Via the Eagle mailing list courtesy of AMSAT-NA Eagle@amsat.org http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/eagle
Lyle Johnson wrote:
Actel has just introduced "rad tolerant" flash-based FPGAs. These use the *identical* silicon die as the commercial ProASIC 3 devices. These are what we specified (and purchased) for the SDX for Eagle.
< URL:http://www.actel.com/products/milaero/rtpa3/default.aspx >
73,
Lyle KK7P
Good News! Any idea of the price for the price for flight-quality parts? I'm about to unveil my latest (for EAGLE@GEO) payload idea and it is heavily dependent on the use of FPGA's for polyphase filter bank (PFB) and digital cross-bar (DXB); details to follow.
73, Tom
Hello Tom!
Lyle Johnson wrote:
Actel has just introduced "rad tolerant" flash-based FPGAs. These use the *identical* silicon die as the commercial ProASIC 3 devices. These are what we specified (and purchased) for the SDX for Eagle.
< URL:http://www.actel.com/products/milaero/rtpa3/default.aspx >
73,
Lyle KK7P
Good News! Any idea of the price for the price for flight-quality parts? I'm about to unveil my latest (for EAGLE@GEO) payload idea and it is heavily dependent on the use of FPGA's for polyphase filter bank (PFB) and digital cross-bar (DXB); details to follow.
No, but it'll be darned expensive with ceramic packaging and "bga" bumps made of stand-up pillars.
ITAR WARNING!!!!
If you are not a US citizen it may be a criminal offense to read the next sentence!
I'd fly the plastic part in a TQFP, personally.
END OF ITAR WARNING!!!!!
Note that the Actel Flash FPGAs aren't as full of DSP features as the SRAM-based parts from Xilinx et al.
73,
Lyle KK7P
Samples of rad-hard PLLs from Peregrine are $500 each so small rad-hard FPGAs must be several thousand dollars each.
73
John KD6OZH
----- Original Message ----- From: "Lyle Johnson" kk7p@wavecable.com To: k3io@verizon.net Cc: "'EAGLE'" eagle@amsat.org Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2008 18:21 UTC Subject: [eagle] Re: Flash-Based Rad-Tolerant FPGAs
Hello Tom!
Lyle Johnson wrote:
Actel has just introduced "rad tolerant" flash-based FPGAs. These use the *identical* silicon die as the commercial ProASIC 3 devices. These are what we specified (and purchased) for the SDX for Eagle.
< URL:http://www.actel.com/products/milaero/rtpa3/default.aspx >
73,
Lyle KK7P
Good News! Any idea of the price for the price for flight-quality parts? I'm about to unveil my latest (for EAGLE@GEO) payload idea and it is heavily dependent on the use of FPGA's for polyphase filter bank (PFB) and digital cross-bar (DXB); details to follow.
No, but it'll be darned expensive with ceramic packaging and "bga" bumps made of stand-up pillars.
ITAR WARNING!!!!
If you are not a US citizen it may be a criminal offense to read the next sentence!
I'd fly the plastic part in a TQFP, personally.
END OF ITAR WARNING!!!!!
Note that the Actel Flash FPGAs aren't as full of DSP features as the SRAM-based parts from Xilinx et al.
73,
Lyle KK7P
Via the Eagle mailing list courtesy of AMSAT-NA Eagle@amsat.org http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/eagle
It's more like $5k for the 600k gate device, and $10k for the 3,000k gate device. We should all expect a bulletin from Actel soon stating that the commercial ProASIC3 devices are *bad* for space use ;-) Assi
-----Original Message----- From: eagle-bounces@amsat.org [mailto:eagle-bounces@amsat.org] On Behalf Of John B. Stephensen Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2008 1:02 PM To: Lyle Johnson; k3io@verizon.net Cc: 'EAGLE' Subject: [eagle] Re: Flash-Based Rad-Tolerant FPGAs
Samples of rad-hard PLLs from Peregrine are $500 each so small rad-hard FPGAs must be several thousand dollars each.
73
John KD6OZH
----- Original Message ----- From: "Lyle Johnson" kk7p@wavecable.com To: k3io@verizon.net Cc: "'EAGLE'" eagle@amsat.org Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2008 18:21 UTC Subject: [eagle] Re: Flash-Based Rad-Tolerant FPGAs
Good News! Any idea of the price for the price for flight-quality parts? I'm about to unveil my latest (for EAGLE@GEO) payload idea and
Xilinx 500k gate devices are $22 in unit quantities plus $1 for the external flash memory so that's a 200:1 ratio for space-based versus earth-based hardware.
73,
John KD6OZH
----- Original Message ----- From: "Assi Friedman" 4x1kx@iarc.org To: "'John B. Stephensen'" kd6ozh@comcast.net; "'Lyle Johnson'" kk7p@wavecable.com; k3io@verizon.net; "'EAGLE'" eagle@amsat.org Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2008 21:29 UTC Subject: RE: [eagle] Re: Flash-Based Rad-Tolerant FPGAs
It's more like $5k for the 600k gate device, and $10k for the 3,000k gate device. We should all expect a bulletin from Actel soon stating that the commercial ProASIC3 devices are *bad* for space use ;-) Assi
-----Original Message----- From: eagle-bounces@amsat.org [mailto:eagle-bounces@amsat.org] On Behalf Of John B. Stephensen Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2008 1:02 PM To: Lyle Johnson; k3io@verizon.net Cc: 'EAGLE' Subject: [eagle] Re: Flash-Based Rad-Tolerant FPGAs
Samples of rad-hard PLLs from Peregrine are $500 each so small rad-hard FPGAs must be several thousand dollars each.
73
John KD6OZH
----- Original Message ----- From: "Lyle Johnson" kk7p@wavecable.com To: k3io@verizon.net Cc: "'EAGLE'" eagle@amsat.org Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2008 18:21 UTC Subject: [eagle] Re: Flash-Based Rad-Tolerant FPGAs
Good News! Any idea of the price for the price for flight-quality parts? I'm about to unveil my latest (for EAGLE@GEO) payload idea and
That is an apples to oranges comparison.
If you want to get a feel for the premium charged for rad tolerant/hard devices you should compare the devices from the same family tree. The commercial ProASIC3 device is about $200/unit.
When it comes to Xilinx parts, the premium from their commercial to the space is just as obscene as Actel's.
Assi
-----Original Message----- From: John B. Stephensen [mailto:kd6ozh@comcast.net] Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2008 4:03 PM To: Assi Friedman; 'Lyle Johnson'; k3io@verizon.net; 'EAGLE' Subject: Re: [eagle] Re: Flash-Based Rad-Tolerant FPGAs
Xilinx 500k gate devices are $22 in unit quantities plus $1 for the external flash memory so that's a 200:1 ratio for space-based versus earth-based hardware.
73,
John KD6OZH
That's still not out of the ballpark. If you are building something that you want to operate 20Y+ in a space environment, you develop on ordinary ICs and build one flight unit with the RadHard version.
On Sep 16, 2008, at 5:29 PM, Assi Friedman wrote:
It's more like $5k for the 600k gate device, and $10k for the 3,000k gate device. We should all expect a bulletin from Actel soon stating that the commercial ProASIC3 devices are *bad* for space use ;-) Assi
-----Original Message----- From: eagle-bounces@amsat.org [mailto:eagle-bounces@amsat.org] On Behalf Of John B. Stephensen Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2008 1:02 PM To: Lyle Johnson; k3io@verizon.net Cc: 'EAGLE' Subject: [eagle] Re: Flash-Based Rad-Tolerant FPGAs
Samples of rad-hard PLLs from Peregrine are $500 each so small rad- hard FPGAs must be several thousand dollars each.
73
John KD6OZH
----- Original Message ----- From: "Lyle Johnson" kk7p@wavecable.com To: k3io@verizon.net Cc: "'EAGLE'" eagle@amsat.org Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2008 18:21 UTC Subject: [eagle] Re: Flash-Based Rad-Tolerant FPGAs
Good News! Any idea of the price for the price for flight-quality parts? I'm about to unveil my latest (for EAGLE@GEO) payload idea and
Via the Eagle mailing list courtesy of AMSAT-NA Eagle@amsat.org http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/eagle
Lou McFadin AMSAT BOD
participants (7)
-
Assi Friedman -
Daniel Schultz -
David Goncalves -
John B. Stephensen -
Louis McFadin -
Lyle Johnson -
Tom Clark, K3IO