Future ISS amateur radio modes
Greetings
I read rogers mail pushing for packet on ISS. I have a different opinion to express. For years, the ISS transmitted a very unchallenging Packet mode devoid of real communications with the crew. After listening for many passes for years waiting to hear a crewmember call CQ the packet noise began to grow on me like chinese water torture. To me, without the capability to communicate with the crew, the aprs packet mode is frivolous robotic stuff. Sorry, But I'm not the military type. I realize the crew is busy, or otherwise uninterested, but I prefer to communicate with the crew or others directly. I'm thankful for the times the d700 was placed in cross-band repeat mode. It was the next best thing to talking to the crew. Please use it in the future.
Thank you, 73, patrick N2OEQ
Hi!
I read rogers mail pushing for packet on ISS. I have a different opinion to express. For years, the ISS transmitted a very unchallenging Packet mode devoid of real communications with the crew.
Unchallenging? Try getting a single packet to - or through - the ISS packet station on a busy pass.
After listening for many passes for years waiting to hear a crewmember call CQ the packet noise began to grow on me like chinese water torture. To me, without the capability to communicate with the crew, the aprs packet mode is frivolous robotic stuff. Sorry, But I'm not the military type. I realize the crew is busy, or otherwise uninterested, but I prefer to communicate with the crew or others directly. I'm thankful for the times the d700 was placed in cross-band repeat mode. It was the next best thing to talking to the crew. Please use it in the future.
Crew activity... that all depends on the crew and whether or not they choose to spend their limited free time on the radio. A few who have gone to the ISS - Bill McArthur is the latest example of an active ISS crewmember on the ham gear (excluding the tourists) - choose to use the radio. That's the bottom line. Nobody is going to force an ISS crewmember to spend lots of time on the ham radio, if that isn't interesting to them.
As for the packet noise as a torture... just tune your VFO off 145.800 or turn the radio off. Or, if the radio has to stay on that frequency for some reason, turn the volume down.
I'd prefer the cross-band repeater over the packet/APRS stuff from the ISS if there isn't any crew activity, but at this point I'd prefer the packet/APRS stuff over the relative silence on 145.800 MHz. When packet was operating, not all activity was APRS. There were some who would make quick QSOs with other stations, digipeating their packet transmissions through the ISS radio.
Here's hoping someone can restore the TM-D700's settings so the radio can be used for more than the scheduled contacts.
73!
Patrick WD9EWK/VA7EWK http://www.wd9ewk.net/
Could the two channels used for casual crew to ham contacts (144.49/145.80 & 145.20/145.80) be programmed to send a subaudible tone?
The subaudible tone would only be on the downlink from the ISS and not required for uplink stations. Let me be very clear on this, I am not asking for the subaudible tone squelch to be turned on at the ISS, just a subaudible tone encoded into the transmission from the ISS on 145.80 and only on the two channels used for crew to ham communications.
The subaudible tone would not be sent on the packet repeater channel (145.99/145.80) or other channels that use 145.800 as the downlink.
This would allow those of us who would like to monitor 145.80 for contacts with the crew to set our own receiver subaudible tone squelch. We then would only hear signals from the ISS when a crew member was making contacts. The squelch would not open for packet, etc.
For those who want to hear everything, nothing would change.
Darrell VA7TO
On April 29, 2007 04:40 pm, Patrick McGrane wrote:
Greetings
I read rogers mail pushing for packet on ISS. I have a different opinion to express. For years, the ISS transmitted a very unchallenging Packet mode devoid of real communications with the crew. After listening for many passes for years waiting to hear a crewmember call CQ the packet noise began to grow on me like chinese water torture. To me, without the capability to communicate with the crew, the aprs packet mode is frivolous robotic stuff. Sorry, But I'm not the military type. I realize the crew is busy, or otherwise uninterested, but I prefer to communicate with the crew or others directly. I'm thankful for the times the d700 was placed in cross-band repeat mode. It was the next best thing to talking to the crew. Please use it in the future.
Thank you, 73, patrick N2OEQ
Another option would be for packets on ISS to be on 145.825 always. That has historically been the channel for AX.25 digipeating:
SUNSAT,PCSAT-1,PCSAT2,ANDE, RAFT
We hope to establish that as a permanent fixture in space with all satellllites that are capable of digipeating being on that same frequency so that access becomes transparent to the users.
Bob, Wb4APR
-----Original Message----- From: sarex-bounces@AMSAT.Org [mailto:sarex-bounces@AMSAT.Org] On Behalf Of Darrell
Bellerive
Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2007 7:58 PM To: sarex@AMSAT.Org Subject: [sarex] Re: Future ISS amateur radio modes
Could the two channels used for casual crew to ham contacts (144.49/145.80 & 145.20/145.80) be programmed to send a subaudible tone?
The subaudible tone would only be on the downlink from the ISS and not required for uplink stations. Let me be very clear on this, I am not asking for the subaudible tone squelch to be turned on at the ISS,
just a
subaudible tone encoded into the transmission from the ISS on 145.80 and only on the two channels used for crew to ham communications.
The subaudible tone would not be sent on the packet repeater
channel
(145.99/145.80) or other channels that use 145.800 as the
downlink.
This would allow those of us who would like to monitor 145.80 for contacts with the crew to set our own receiver subaudible tone squelch. We then would only hear signals from the ISS when a crew member was
making
contacts. The squelch would not open for packet, etc.
For those who want to hear everything, nothing would change.
Darrell VA7TO
On April 29, 2007 04:40 pm, Patrick McGrane wrote:
Greetings
I read rogers mail pushing for packet on ISS. I have a
different opinion
to express. For years, the ISS transmitted a very
unchallenging Packet
mode devoid of real communications with the crew. After
listening for
many passes for years waiting to hear a crewmember call CQ
the packet
noise began to grow on me like chinese water torture. To
me, without the
capability to communicate with the crew, the aprs packet
mode is
frivolous robotic stuff. Sorry, But I'm not the military
type. I realize
the crew is busy, or otherwise uninterested, but I prefer
to communicate
with the crew or others directly. I'm thankful for the
times the d700 was
placed in cross-band repeat mode. It was the next best
thing to talking
to the crew. Please use it in the future.
Thank you, 73, patrick N2OEQ
-- Darrell Bellerive Amateur Radio Stations VA7TO and VE7CLA Grand Forks, British Columbia, Canada
Sent via sarex@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the
author.
Not an AMSAT member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/sarex
That is right! There are options for packet and voice repeaters. It might be some time before there is any ISS voice/packet activity.
I put my money on Bob Bruninga building a satellite, launching it and have it operating before ISS is back on the air.
Happy satellite hunting!
Scott
----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Bruninga" bruninga@usna.edu To: va7to@yahoo.ca; sarex@AMSAT.Org Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2007 6:01 PM Subject: [sarex] Re: Future ISS amateur radio modes
Another option would be for packets on ISS to be on 145.825 always. That has historically been the channel for AX.25 digipeating:
SUNSAT,PCSAT-1,PCSAT2,ANDE, RAFT
We hope to establish that as a permanent fixture in space with all satellllites that are capable of digipeating being on that same frequency so that access becomes transparent to the users.
Bob, Wb4APR
-----Original Message----- From: sarex-bounces@AMSAT.Org [mailto:sarex-bounces@AMSAT.Org] On Behalf Of Darrell
Bellerive
Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2007 7:58 PM To: sarex@AMSAT.Org Subject: [sarex] Re: Future ISS amateur radio modes
Could the two channels used for casual crew to ham contacts (144.49/145.80 & 145.20/145.80) be programmed to send a subaudible tone?
The subaudible tone would only be on the downlink from the ISS and not required for uplink stations. Let me be very clear on this, I am not asking for the subaudible tone squelch to be turned on at the ISS,
just a
subaudible tone encoded into the transmission from the ISS on 145.80 and only on the two channels used for crew to ham communications.
The subaudible tone would not be sent on the packet repeater
channel
(145.99/145.80) or other channels that use 145.800 as the
downlink.
This would allow those of us who would like to monitor 145.80 for contacts with the crew to set our own receiver subaudible tone squelch. We then would only hear signals from the ISS when a crew member was
making
contacts. The squelch would not open for packet, etc.
For those who want to hear everything, nothing would change.
Darrell VA7TO
On April 29, 2007 04:40 pm, Patrick McGrane wrote:
Greetings
I read rogers mail pushing for packet on ISS. I have a
different opinion
to express. For years, the ISS transmitted a very
unchallenging Packet
mode devoid of real communications with the crew. After
listening for
many passes for years waiting to hear a crewmember call CQ
the packet
noise began to grow on me like chinese water torture. To
me, without the
capability to communicate with the crew, the aprs packet
mode is
frivolous robotic stuff. Sorry, But I'm not the military
type. I realize
the crew is busy, or otherwise uninterested, but I prefer
to communicate
with the crew or others directly. I'm thankful for the
times the d700 was
placed in cross-band repeat mode. It was the next best
thing to talking
to the crew. Please use it in the future.
Thank you, 73, patrick N2OEQ
-- Darrell Bellerive Amateur Radio Stations VA7TO and VE7CLA Grand Forks, British Columbia, Canada
Sent via sarex@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the
author.
Not an AMSAT member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/sarex
Sent via sarex@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/sarex
ISS Amateur Radio Status: May 2, 2007
Future Projects on ISS By Miles Mann WF1F,
MAREX-MG News www.marexmg.org
Manned Amateur Radio Experiment
Future Projects on ISS:
There are a lot of good ideas regarding how to use Amateur Radio equipment on board ISS. I like the suggestion from Darrell Bellerive va7to of using a Downlink PL tone from ISS for the voice channel.
I am not sure how much the Doppler will affect the PL tone. I am intrigued by the idea and will try some terrestrial experimentation to if there is much of an effect.
Current In-flight projects on ISS include: Packet, Voice (mono-band), Cross-Band Repeater and SSTV.
Each of these projects has shown good results from manned platforms such as Mir and ISS. The projects that the space agencies like the best are the ones that do not use very much crew time. The projects Packet, Cross-Band and SSTV are the highest bang for the buck projects because they do not take up too much crew time. And as we know, free crew time for ham projexts is very very limited.
Cross-Band Repeater generates a lot if good interest from the amateur radio community. There are a few down side issues to cross band that have to be taken into consideration. Not all countries allow amateur radio on the 440 band (sometimes called 70cm). There is more Doppler on 440 (+ and 10khz) Some of these and other issues can be overcome with experience. I wold be nice if someone could design a small frequency agile cross repeater that could work on any combination of 10 meter, 2-meter and 440. That way we would have the maximum flexibility based on project needs. We have the existing antennas on ISS, lets use them.
Existing ISS Antenna counts: Module FGB One Sirius 2-meter antenna tuned for approximately 147 MHZ. Dual one-quarter wave co-phased antennas mounted externally. Currently connected to the Ericsson Ht.
Service Module, Three Tri-Band antennas, that support 2-meters, 440 and a patch antenna supporting 1.2 2.4 GHz. (The patch antenna has high coax losses, > 8 dB at 1.2 GHz) One 10-meter whip and 1.2-2.4 GHz patch combination. One of these Tri-Band antennas is conneced to the D700. The others are not currenlty used.
Grand total of currently installed Amateur Radio antennas on ISS 4 antennas for 2-meters 3 antennas for 440 4 antennas for 1.2-2.4 GHz 1 antenna for 10 meters
MAREX is focusing on the entry-level projects for beginners such as Slow Scan TV and Packet Email. We have had excellent results on Mir project with both SSTV and Packet. And last summer experimented with SSTV from ISS with some very good down linked images.
The long term plans, hardware and crew time permitting is to place SSTV on a 10 meter down link, continuously streaming images from ISS. http://www.marexmg.org/imagessstv/SpaceCamImages1.htm
And place a continuous presence Packet Email system on 2-meters, running 24/7. MAREX has received initial approval to use a Kantronics KPC-9612 TNC as the data engine. This modem supports all the standard features of most TNCs built, including: Full Multiple user simultaneous Email users. Simultaneous dual speed support 1200 and 9600 baud. Un-proto modes, Text messaging and APRS beacons.
Some unapproved projects Marex is working on are to provide a full plug and play solution for a new system. New style easy to use transceivers, Analog and digital voice capabilities, Bolt on heat sinks and fans to compensate for zero gravity cooling issues, standardized plug in DC headsets and more. Your support for these projects would be greatly appreciated. http://www.marexmg.org/
ARISS Web page and other great Space projects http://www.rac.ca/ariss/
73 Miles WF1F MAREX-MG
Until we meet again
DOSVIDANIYA Miles WF1F
__________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Hi Miles,
think about it, the percentage shift of the carrier frequency of the modulating tone compared to the carrier will be negligible and therefore the effect on the tone itself will also be virtually zero. If the Doppler affected it significantly, our voices through the system would also be changed significantly. Also, packet wouldn't work either and we know that it works fine.
73....Eric VK2VE.
-----Original Message----- From: sarex-bounces@AMSAT.Org [mailto:sarex-bounces@AMSAT.Org] On Behalf Of MM Sent: Wednesday, 2 May 2007 22:42 To: va7to@yahoo.ca; sarex@AMSAT.Org Subject: [sarex] Future ISS amateur radio modes, Marex
ISS Amateur Radio Status: May 2, 2007
Future Projects on ISS By Miles Mann WF1F,
MAREX-MG News www.marexmg.org
Manned Amateur Radio Experiment
Future Projects on ISS:
There are a lot of good ideas regarding how to use Amateur Radio equipment on board ISS. I like the suggestion from Darrell Bellerive va7to of using a Downlink PL tone from ISS for the voice channel.
I am not sure how much the Doppler will affect the PL tone. I am intrigued by the idea and will try some terrestrial experimentation to if there is much of an effect.
Current In-flight projects on ISS include: Packet, Voice (mono-band), Cross-Band Repeater and SSTV.
Each of these projects has shown good results from manned platforms such as Mir and ISS. The projects that the space agencies like the best are the ones that do not use very much crew time. The projects Packet, Cross-Band and SSTV are the highest bang for the buck projects because they do not take up too much crew time. And as we know, free crew time for ham projexts is very very limited.
Cross-Band Repeater generates a lot if good interest from the amateur radio community. There are a few down side issues to cross band that have to be taken into consideration. Not all countries allow amateur radio on the 440 band (sometimes called 70cm). There is more Doppler on 440 (+ and - 10khz) Some of these and other issues can be overcome with experience. I wold be nice if someone could design a small frequency agile cross repeater that could work on any combination of 10 meter, 2-meter and 440. That way we would have the maximum flexibility based on project needs. We have the existing antennas on ISS, let's use them.
Existing ISS Antenna counts: Module FGB One Sirius 2-meter antenna tuned for approximately 147 MHZ. Dual one-quarter wave co-phased antennas mounted externally. Currently connected to the Ericsson Ht.
Service Module, Three Tri-Band antennas, that support 2-meters, 440 and a patch antenna supporting 1.2 - 2.4 GHz. (The patch antenna has high coax losses, > 8 dB at 1.2 GHz) One 10-meter whip and 1.2-2.4 GHz patch combination. One of these Tri-Band antennas is conneced to the D700. The others are not currenlty used.
Grand total of currently installed Amateur Radio antennas on ISS 4 antennas for 2-meters 3 antennas for 440 4 antennas for 1.2-2.4 GHz 1 antenna for 10 meters
MAREX is focusing on the entry-level projects for beginners such as Slow Scan TV and Packet Email. We have had excellent results on Mir project with both SSTV and Packet. And last summer experimented with SSTV from ISS with some very good down linked images.
The long term plans, hardware and crew time permitting is to place SSTV on a 10 meter down link, continuously streaming images from ISS. http://www.marexmg.org/imagessstv/SpaceCamImages1.htm
And place a continuous presence Packet Email system on 2-meters, running 24/7. MAREX has received initial approval to use a Kantronics KPC-9612 TNC as the data engine. This modem supports all the standard features of most TNC's built, including: Full Multiple user simultaneous Email users. Simultaneous dual speed support 1200 and 9600 baud. Un-proto modes, Text messaging and APRS beacons.
Some unapproved projects Marex is working on are to provide a full plug and play solution for a new system. New style easy to use transceivers, Analog and digital voice capabilities, Bolt on heat sinks and fans to compensate for zero gravity cooling issues, standardized plug in DC headsets and more. Your support for these projects would be greatly appreciated. http://www.marexmg.org/
ARISS Web page and other great Space projects http://www.rac.ca/ariss/
73 Miles WF1F MAREX-MG
Until we meet again
DOSVIDANIYA Miles WF1F
__________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ---- Sent via sarex@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/sarex
Hi Eric:
I agree with your analyses on the Doppler / PL Tone shift. With a Doppler of less than 2 kHz, the PL tone should be passed with little or no degradation. The FM Capture effect locks on to the signal and compensates for some of the frequency error. At a higher Doppler values, you do see noise and other distortions begin to creep in. The PL tone suggestion just needs to be tested to get a realist feel on what to expect. We have had issues in the past, with putting stuff in space that was not properly tested end to end. Whenever I hear of a good idea, I try thinking about the environment where it will be used.
Packet is affected by Doppler when it begins to get above 2.0 kHz. The amount of error is also dependent on the Signal level at the receiver. At a signal level of S9 and a 2.5 kHz Doppler you will see very few data errors (Retries caused by check sum errors). At S2 and 2.5 kHz Doppler your receiver will have a harder time decoding the data. Thats why, at the beginning and End of ISS packet passes when the Doppler is the greatest, I adjust my TX and RX for Doppler.
On a related note, I did test the Icom ID-800 digital voice mode with a Simulated Doppler. The results were very good. The ID-800 uses a 2.4 kbit digital data stream for Digital Audio. When this data stream was subjected to simulated Doppler of 2.5 kHz, at an indicated receiver S-meter level of S1, the audio stream decoded perfectly. This means that some of the narrow digital modes can be used from FM satellites when the Doppler is less than 3 kHz (depending on received signal strength).
Miles WF1F
--- Eric van de Weyer eric@van-de-weyer.org wrote:
Hi Miles,
think about it, the percentage shift of the carrier frequency of the modulating tone compared to the carrier will be negligible and therefore the effect on the tone itself will also be virtually zero. If the Doppler affected it significantly, our voices through the system would also be changed significantly. Also, packet wouldn't work either and we know that it works fine.
73....Eric VK2VE.
-----Original Message----- From: sarex-bounces@AMSAT.Org [mailto:sarex-bounces@AMSAT.Org] On Behalf Of MM Sent: Wednesday, 2 May 2007 22:42 To: va7to@yahoo.ca; sarex@AMSAT.Org Subject: [sarex] Future ISS amateur radio modes, Marex
ISS Amateur Radio Status: May 2, 2007
Future Projects on ISS By Miles Mann WF1F,
MAREX-MG News www.marexmg.org
Manned Amateur Radio Experiment
Future Projects on ISS:
There are a lot of good ideas regarding how to use Amateur Radio equipment on board ISS. I like the suggestion from Darrell Bellerive va7to of using a Downlink PL tone from ISS for the voice channel.
I am not sure how much the Doppler will affect the PL tone. I am intrigued by the idea and will try some terrestrial experimentation to if there is much of an effect.
Current In-flight projects on ISS include: Packet, Voice (mono-band), Cross-Band Repeater and SSTV.
Each of these projects has shown good results from manned platforms such as Mir and ISS. The projects that the space agencies like the best are the ones that do not use very much crew time. The projects Packet, Cross-Band and SSTV are the highest bang for the buck projects because they do not take up too much crew time. And as we know, free crew time for ham projexts is very very limited.
Cross-Band Repeater generates a lot if good interest from the amateur radio community. There are a few down side issues to cross band that have to be taken into consideration. Not all countries allow amateur radio on the 440 band (sometimes called 70cm). There is more Doppler on 440 (+ and - 10khz) Some of these and other issues can be overcome with experience. I wold be nice if someone could design a small frequency agile cross repeater that could work on any combination of 10 meter, 2-meter and 440. That way we would have the maximum flexibility based on project needs. We have the existing antennas on ISS, let's use them.
Existing ISS Antenna counts: Module FGB One Sirius 2-meter antenna tuned for approximately 147 MHZ. Dual one-quarter wave co-phased antennas mounted externally. Currently connected to the Ericsson Ht.
Service Module, Three Tri-Band antennas, that support 2-meters, 440 and a patch antenna supporting 1.2 - 2.4 GHz. (The patch antenna has high coax losses, > 8 dB at 1.2 GHz) One 10-meter whip and 1.2-2.4 GHz patch combination. One of these Tri-Band antennas is conneced to the D700. The others are not currenlty used.
Grand total of currently installed Amateur Radio antennas on ISS 4 antennas for 2-meters 3 antennas for 440 4 antennas for 1.2-2.4 GHz 1 antenna for 10 meters
MAREX is focusing on the entry-level projects for beginners such as Slow Scan TV and Packet Email. We have had excellent results on Mir project with both SSTV and Packet. And last summer experimented with SSTV from ISS with some very good down linked images.
The long term plans, hardware and crew time permitting is to place SSTV on a 10 meter down link, continuously streaming images from ISS.
http://www.marexmg.org/imagessstv/SpaceCamImages1.htm
And place a continuous presence Packet Email system on 2-meters, running 24/7. MAREX has received initial approval to use a Kantronics KPC-9612 TNC as the data engine. This modem supports all the standard features of most TNC's built, including: Full Multiple user simultaneous Email users. Simultaneous dual speed support 1200 and 9600 baud. Un-proto modes, Text messaging and APRS beacons.
Some unapproved projects Marex is working on are to provide a full plug and play solution for a new system. New style easy to use transceivers, Analog and digital voice capabilities, Bolt on heat sinks and fans to compensate for zero gravity cooling issues, standardized plug in DC headsets and more. Your support for these projects would be greatly appreciated. http://www.marexmg.org/
ARISS Web page and other great Space projects http://www.rac.ca/ariss/
73 Miles WF1F MAREX-MG
Until we meet again
DOSVIDANIYA Miles WF1F
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Sent via sarex@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/sarex
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I still think the best way around all of this is to make a "box" to were ground ctrl sta's can cmd each rig. This way the crew would not be tired up .. this has been done in the past with several of WA4APR's experiments and has work just fine ..
Dave N6CO
----- Original Message ----- From: "MM" ka1rrw@yahoo.com To: "Eric van de Weyer" eric@van-de-weyer.org; va7to@yahoo.ca; sarex@AMSAT.Org Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2007 8:15 AM Subject: [sarex] Re: Future ISS amateur radio modes, Marex
Hi Eric:
I agree with your analyses on the Doppler / PL Tone shift. With a Doppler of less than 2 kHz, the PL tone should be passed with little or no degradation. The FM Capture effect locks on to the signal and compensates for some of the frequency error. At a higher Doppler values, you do see noise and other distortions begin to creep in. The PL tone suggestion just needs to be tested to get a realist feel on what to expect. We have had issues in the past, with putting stuff in space that was not properly tested end to end. Whenever I hear of a good idea, I try thinking about the environment where it will be used.
Packet is affected by Doppler when it begins to get above 2.0 kHz. The amount of error is also dependent on the Signal level at the receiver. At a signal level of S9 and a 2.5 kHz Doppler you will see very few data errors (Retries caused by check sum errors). At S2 and 2.5 kHz Doppler your receiver will have a harder time decoding the data. That's why, at the beginning and End of ISS packet passes when the Doppler is the greatest, I adjust my TX and RX for Doppler.
On a related note, I did test the Icom ID-800 digital voice mode with a Simulated Doppler. The results were very good. The ID-800 uses a 2.4 kbit digital data stream for Digital Audio. When this data stream was subjected to simulated Doppler of 2.5 kHz, at an indicated receiver S-meter level of S1, the audio stream decoded perfectly. This means that some of the narrow digital modes can be used from FM satellites when the Doppler is less than 3 kHz (depending on received signal strength).
Miles WF1F
--- Eric van de Weyer eric@van-de-weyer.org wrote:
Hi Miles,
think about it, the percentage shift of the carrier frequency of the modulating tone compared to the carrier will be negligible and therefore the effect on the tone itself will also be virtually zero. If the Doppler affected it significantly, our voices through the system would also be changed significantly. Also, packet wouldn't work either and we know that it works fine.
73....Eric VK2VE.
-----Original Message----- From: sarex-bounces@AMSAT.Org [mailto:sarex-bounces@AMSAT.Org] On Behalf Of MM Sent: Wednesday, 2 May 2007 22:42 To: va7to@yahoo.ca; sarex@AMSAT.Org Subject: [sarex] Future ISS amateur radio modes, Marex
ISS Amateur Radio Status: May 2, 2007
Future Projects on ISS By Miles Mann WF1F,
MAREX-MG News www.marexmg.org
Manned Amateur Radio Experiment
Future Projects on ISS:
There are a lot of good ideas regarding how to use Amateur Radio equipment on board ISS. I like the suggestion from Darrell Bellerive va7to of using a Downlink PL tone from ISS for the voice channel.
I am not sure how much the Doppler will affect the PL tone. I am intrigued by the idea and will try some terrestrial experimentation to if there is much of an effect.
Current In-flight projects on ISS include: Packet, Voice (mono-band), Cross-Band Repeater and SSTV.
Each of these projects has shown good results from manned platforms such as Mir and ISS. The projects that the space agencies like the best are the ones that do not use very much crew time. The projects Packet, Cross-Band and SSTV are the highest bang for the buck projects because they do not take up too much crew time. And as we know, free crew time for ham projexts is very very limited.
Cross-Band Repeater generates a lot if good interest from the amateur radio community. There are a few down side issues to cross band that have to be taken into consideration. Not all countries allow amateur radio on the 440 band (sometimes called 70cm). There is more Doppler on 440 (+ and - 10khz) Some of these and other issues can be overcome with experience. I wold be nice if someone could design a small frequency agile cross repeater that could work on any combination of 10 meter, 2-meter and 440. That way we would have the maximum flexibility based on project needs. We have the existing antennas on ISS, let's use them.
Existing ISS Antenna counts: Module FGB One Sirius 2-meter antenna tuned for approximately 147 MHZ. Dual one-quarter wave co-phased antennas mounted externally. Currently connected to the Ericsson Ht.
Service Module, Three Tri-Band antennas, that support 2-meters, 440 and a patch antenna supporting 1.2 - 2.4 GHz. (The patch antenna has high coax losses, > 8 dB at 1.2 GHz) One 10-meter whip and 1.2-2.4 GHz patch combination. One of these Tri-Band antennas is conneced to the D700. The others are not currenlty used.
Grand total of currently installed Amateur Radio antennas on ISS 4 antennas for 2-meters 3 antennas for 440 4 antennas for 1.2-2.4 GHz 1 antenna for 10 meters
MAREX is focusing on the entry-level projects for beginners such as Slow Scan TV and Packet Email. We have had excellent results on Mir project with both SSTV and Packet. And last summer experimented with SSTV from ISS with some very good down linked images.
The long term plans, hardware and crew time permitting is to place SSTV on a 10 meter down link, continuously streaming images from ISS.
http://www.marexmg.org/imagessstv/SpaceCamImages1.htm
And place a continuous presence Packet Email system on 2-meters, running 24/7. MAREX has received initial approval to use a Kantronics KPC-9612 TNC as the data engine. This modem supports all the standard features of most TNC's built, including: Full Multiple user simultaneous Email users. Simultaneous dual speed support 1200 and 9600 baud. Un-proto modes, Text messaging and APRS beacons.
Some unapproved projects Marex is working on are to provide a full plug and play solution for a new system. New style easy to use transceivers, Analog and digital voice capabilities, Bolt on heat sinks and fans to compensate for zero gravity cooling issues, standardized plug in DC headsets and more. Your support for these projects would be greatly appreciated. http://www.marexmg.org/
ARISS Web page and other great Space projects http://www.rac.ca/ariss/
73 Miles WF1F MAREX-MG
Until we meet again
DOSVIDANIYA Miles WF1F
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Some interesting suggestions for operations. Keep them coming. I'm always looking for fresh ideas and many of these are already under consideration for future implementation.
Regarding the sub audible tone idea - I like the thought but that will only work on the Kenwood D700. The VHF and UHF Ericsson units are not reprogrammable and as such would not send the tone when the crew used them.
Regarding the drive for packet - I suspect that comes from the fact that there are several crossband repeater style satellites available (SO-50, AO-51 and VO-52) and very few easily accessible packet satellites orbiting. PCSAT is only functional in full sun, ANDE and RAFT require significant ground stations and will be deorbiting in a relatively short time.
Ideally, each radio system on ISS will support a unique operation so that nearly everyone would have something to play with. Currently, the Kenwood radio is being used as a prime radio for everything. That means changing it from one mode to the next a lot. The simplest switch is from voice to packet (3 steps). Activation of the crossband repeater is (unfortunately) a 27 step process and therefore is crew intensive. That is a major driver in it's activation.
Once the planned hardware is aboard and installed, having each system dedicated to a specific operation will minimize the need for mode changes and crew interaction. There will be more unattended modes of operation available for longer periods of time. When a crew member wishes to be active, they will have several options to do so but should they not want to be active, they just turn the volume down and the unattended operations will not suffer as they do now.
Kenneth - N5VHO
Once the planned hardware is aboard and installed, having each system dedicated to a specific operation will minimize the need for mode changes and crew interaction.
But this can only be true if all systems operate with clear isolation of all uplinks from all downlinks on separate bands. It is impossible to have independent systems operating with uplinks in the same band which may be used for downlinks.
Until ARISS commits to a permanent dedicated downlink band which then guarantees other known bands for non-interfering uplink bands, future planning is stymied by crew-required mode changes and lack of independence of systems.
Current use of 2m for both uplink and downlink, prevents its use by any other system for any other purpose without crew intervention on every such use. There are really only three choices...
1) make 2m the downlink band for simplicity of reception around the world. Even the least advantaged country should be able to at least borrow an ARISS UHF uplink radio for a school contact. But it does require Doppler tuning in the blind on the uplink. Tuning a radio +/10 KHz is not a hard skill to learn.
2) Make UHF the downlink band so that recipients can simply tune the Doppler to best sound, and then uplink on 2m is fixed frequency with no problems. Less interference with UHF radars...
3) Continue status-quo, and use 2m for both uplink and downlink for school contacts and either require crew intervention with every mode change for use of 2 meters for anything else, or require all other systems to not use 2m for anything, so they can be independent of crew issues.
Until there is a permanent commitment to one of these three possibilities, uplinks and downlinks can not be planned without conflicts, and crew intervention is required in every mode change on every system that might want to share 2m for anything.
Of 60+ amateur satellties, few (with more than one mode on board) use monoband operation. There is a good reason for that. Uplinks and downlinks are in different bands for operating independence of modes. Just what we need on ISS.
Just a thought. Bob Bruninga
Looks like option 3 would work with the eventual 28, 145, 430 and 2400 MHz options planned for installation. That will provide 4 bands for 4 different modes.
Keep in mind that the primary goal is to support school contacts. Keeping them on 2 meters greatly simplifies the task for a lot of first timers working a space based radio station. Additional objectives must fall in line with that goal.
Another difference is that the ISS is setup more like a club station than a satellite. Future enhancements could convert it into a more satellite-ish operation but we have a lot of those orbiting already.
Kenneth - N5VHO
-----Original Message----- From: sarex-bounces@AMSAT.Org [mailto:sarex-bounces@AMSAT.Org] On Behalf Of Robert Bruninga Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2007 11:07 AM To: sarex@AMSAT.Org Subject: [sarex] Re: Future ISS amateur radio modes
Once the planned hardware is aboard and installed, having each system dedicated to a specific operation will minimize the need for mode changes and crew interaction.
But this can only be true if all systems operate with clear isolation of all uplinks from all downlinks on separate bands. It is impossible to have independent systems operating with uplinks in the same band which may be used for downlinks.
Until ARISS commits to a permanent dedicated downlink band which then guarantees other known bands for non-interfering uplink bands, future planning is stymied by crew-required mode changes and lack of independence of systems.
Current use of 2m for both uplink and downlink, prevents its use by any other system for any other purpose without crew intervention on every such use. There are really only three choices...
1) make 2m the downlink band for simplicity of reception around the world. Even the least advantaged country should be able to at least borrow an ARISS UHF uplink radio for a school contact. But it does require Doppler tuning in the blind on the uplink. Tuning a radio +/10 KHz is not a hard skill to learn.
2) Make UHF the downlink band so that recipients can simply tune the Doppler to best sound, and then uplink on 2m is fixed frequency with no problems. Less interference with UHF radars...
3) Continue status-quo, and use 2m for both uplink and downlink for school contacts and either require crew intervention with every mode change for use of 2 meters for anything else, or require all other systems to not use 2m for anything, so they can be independent of crew issues.
Until there is a permanent commitment to one of these three possibilities, uplinks and downlinks can not be planned without conflicts, and crew intervention is required in every mode change on every system that might want to share 2m for anything.
Of 60+ amateur satellties, few (with more than one mode on board) use monoband operation. There is a good reason for that. Uplinks and downlinks are in different bands for operating independence of modes. Just what we need on ISS.
Just a thought. Bob Bruninga
---- Sent via sarex@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/sarex
Looks like option 3 would work [2m monoband for school contacts] with the eventual 28, 145, 430 and 2400 MHz options planned for installation. That will provide 4 bands for 4 different modes.
I may be nitpicking your words, but that particular phrasing still sounds like self-limiting mono-band operation, which not only limits to exactly 4 modes, but overlooks the fact that with the long lead time of systems on ISS, there are years of overlap between the design and eventual operations of some systems. Allowing for "monoband" operations on any of these other bands is simply multiplying the current coordination issues across 4 more bands and making them a roadblock to future independent growth and development which should have less dependence on daily immediate crew involvement for every mode. Not perpetuating the same problems to other bands. What I would like to see ARISS say is something along these lines:?
1) Monoband 2m operation exclusively for school contacts only. No other uplinks or downlinks or any other modes will be planned without consideration of the requirement for direct crew involvement of every operation and every mode change for operation on 2m.
2) 430 MHz as a dedicated downlink band (no uplinks) 3) 28 MHz and 1200 MHz as dedicated UPLINKs 4) 2400 MHz TBD.
Number 1 makes 2m a lost band for any other modes or experiments except for the indicated limitations and inherent unreliablity. But does preserve the status quo.
Number 2 and 3 combined give an unlimited number of future modes and systems than can operate independenly, without interferrence and without intense coordination. (not just 4). And more importantly can be planned and worked on the ground independently as well.
By dedicating at least one band to exclusive downlinks and another band for exclusive uplinks, ALL mutual system interferrences are avoided as well as any requirement for crew involvement. Plus, all future Amateur Radio Operations and equipment, and planning can work independently, in any sequence at any time, and be preempted, replaced, or whatever as independent systems. That is the only way to avoid the problems of mutual interference, intense crew involvement for every mode change, and intense coordination for daily operation.
Even thinking of perpetuating even a hint of future monoband operations on any of the other precious bands is very shortsighted, and builds in exactly the kind of intense crew involvement, intense coordination, and intense and detailed interleaved planning... All of which can be avoided by never even considiering any future monoband designs or operations.
Blocking any of these other bands with any future plans for monoband operations I fear is short sighted...
What we really need to see is for ARISS to commit to dedicated uplink and downlink bands and the prohibition of any monoband operations in those bands. Without that, then there is no clear independent path for any future missions, experiments or operations, which does not bring us back to the present situation of the potential for incompatible, conflicting, crew-involved , interrelated, cordination intense processes.
Or something along those lines...
Bob, WB4APR
-----Original Message----- From: sarex-bounces@AMSAT.Org [mailto:sarex-bounces@AMSAT.Org] On Behalf Of Robert Bruninga Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2007 11:07 AM To: sarex@AMSAT.Org Subject: [sarex] Re: Future ISS amateur radio modes
Once the planned hardware is aboard and installed, having
each system
dedicated to a specific operation will minimize the need for
mode
changes and crew interaction.
But this can only be true if all systems operate with clear isolation of all uplinks from all downlinks on separate bands. It is impossible to have independent systems operating with
uplinks in
the same band which may be used for downlinks.
Until ARISS commits to a permanent dedicated downlink band
which then
guarantees other known bands for non-interfering uplink bands,
future
planning is stymied by crew-required mode changes and lack of independence of systems.
Current use of 2m for both uplink and downlink, prevents its use by any other system for any other purpose without crew intervention
on every
such use. There are really only three choices...
- make 2m the downlink band for simplicity of reception
around the
world. Even the least advantaged country should be able to at
least
borrow an ARISS UHF uplink radio for a school contact. But it does require Doppler tuning in the blind on the uplink. Tuning a radio +/10 KHz is not a hard skill to learn.
- Make UHF the downlink band so that recipients can simply
tune the
Doppler to best sound, and then uplink on 2m is fixed frequency with no problems. Less interference with UHF radars...
- Continue status-quo, and use 2m for both uplink and
downlink for
school contacts and either require crew intervention with
every mode
change for use of 2 meters for anything else, or require all
other
systems to not use 2m for anything, so they can be independent
of crew
issues.
Until there is a permanent commitment to one of these three possibilities, uplinks and downlinks can not be planned
without
conflicts, and crew intervention is required in every mode
change on
every system that might want to share 2m for anything.
Of 60+ amateur satellties, few (with more than one mode on board) use monoband operation. There is a good reason for
that.
Uplinks and downlinks are in different bands for operating independence of modes. Just what we need on ISS.
Just a thought. Bob Bruninga
Sent via sarex@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the
author.
Not an AMSAT member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/sarex
Sent via sarex@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the
author.
Not an AMSAT member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/sarex
----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Bruninga" bruninga@usna.edu To: sarex@AMSAT.Org Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2007 11:06 AM Subject: [sarex] Re: Future ISS amateur radio modes
Once the planned hardware is aboard and installed, having each system dedicated to a specific operation will minimize the need for mode changes and crew interaction.
But this can only be true if all systems operate with clear isolation of all uplinks from all downlinks on separate bands. It is impossible to have independent systems operating with uplinks in the same band which may be used for downlinks.
The ISS is a sufficiently large mass of metal that tremendous same-band isolation should be achieveable by simply mounting antennas on opposite sides of the station, end-on with respect to each other (sort of like mounting an inverted vertical underneath another on a tower, but with a large metal object between them instead of just space...). Correct?
George, KA3HSW
The ISS is a sufficiently large mass of metal that tremendous same-band isolation should be achieveable by simply mounting antennas on opposite sides of the station,...[etc]
Unfortunately, Not really. I am sure that if we had two magmounts and could crawl all over the outside of ISS with long enough cables, that two mutually isolated locations could be found (kind-of-a- can you hear me now? Kind of test). But NASA does not allow us the resources for that kind of approach.
But even if you did find such a location, or even if you did spend a few millions of dollars doing an RF analysis of such an arrangement, it would all change when ever anything moved. And things are always moving up there.
Also, not only does one not even attempt to plan weak signal same-band operations from the same Field Day site, one would never risk several years of planning and millions of dollars of effort on something that critical that might be desensed as soon as the solar arrays moved 10 degrees..
We had several amateurs do tests of several 2 meter radios to discover how much power on one 2m radio was needed to descense another 2m radio and the power level was down around 10 milliwatts at 100 foot separation and it still caused 10 dB desense. (I think I remembered those right)...
Unfortunaly then, we simply cannot plan on up and downlinks in the same band while hoping for independent operations without constant crew intervention with every single mode change that affects that band.
Bob Bruninga
Hi all: I agree with Bobs analysis on the same band up/down links on ISS or similar space stations. We had similar interference problems with Mir and ISS already with the ham gear. The Russian space agency uses VHF transmitter on 143.xxx MHZ as an emergency frequency. They test this frequency frequently to verify the terrestrial ground stations can still hear ISS. Occasionally they will just hit the TX button for a few hours to make sure all of the ground stations are listening (I have seen this on ISS too). The transmitter power levels and Gains for the ISS transmitter are not known. However it is known that when the 143 MHZ transmitter is running, the ham radio listening on 2-meters will go deaf!
I did some testing with the Mir Space station that was using a Kenwood TM-733 transceiver to see how much power was required on earth to punch thought the de-sense while 143 MHZ was active, and it was a lot. In 1996 Astronaut Gerry Linenger was on frequency calling me at AOS for a pre arranged phone patch to his brother in Michigan (1500 miles distance to Mir maximum). We were using an uplink frequency between 145.825 145.900. The Russian crewmembers were chatting away on 143 MHZ in voice (FM 10 kHz deviation, power and antenna locations on Mir unknown). I was running 300+ watts of raw RF into 80 feet of RG-213 coax. The antenna was an M2 with 22 elements circular polarized (12 dBd gain mimimum). Antenna positioning was computer controlled in Azimuth and Elevation. The ERP I was generating was more than 2400 watts. The pass I had chosen for the Phone patch was a very high pass, typically over 70 degrees, which means that Mir would be passing less than 400 miles from my QTH at its closest point. Gerry kept calling me, but he could not hear me until he was right over my QTH. We only had contact for a few seconds. Then as the pass by, the de-sense caused by the 143 MHZ transmitter over came my 2400 watt ERP and contact lost.
The frequency separation between the two radios was over 2.2 MHZ. The distance between the two antennas is not known exactly, however ill guess it was between 10 feet and not more than 50 feet. Both antennas were most likely mounted on the Mir Module. On ISS we have a similar issue and that is most of our antennas are mounted on the Service Module which is the same place as the 143 MHZ transmitter.
After the De-sense test with Mir, the MAREX and SAREX teams worked together to install a special 5 pound custom filter build by DCI. The filter had 4-tuned cavities and a fifth cavity that included a special notch filter for the exact 143 MHZ transmitter. In February 1998 the Russians delivered the filter http://www.marexmg.org/fileshtml/radiohardware.html The DCI filter can be seen next to Andys right wrist. Its the rectangle box with the white printed label.
The new filter allowed us to carry on School schedules and other communications while the 143 MHZ transmitter was active. The reason this Mir DCI filter was successful was because the 143 transmitter and the ham 145.985 receive frequency were over 2.2 MHZ apart. This is how we were able to get away with such a small filter. If were to try a similar multiple 2 meter up/down projects on ISS, it could be done, however we would need bigger and heavier filters because our separation would be approximately 1.5 MHZ separation. We also have size limitations. But if you know who to talk to at NASA and have the $$, I am game.
WF1F Miles at MAREX
--- Robert Bruninga bruninga@usna.edu wrote:
The ISS is a sufficiently large mass of metal that
tremendous same-band isolation should be
achieveable
by simply mounting antennas on opposite sides of
the
station,...[etc]
Unfortunately, Not really. I am sure that if we had two magmounts and could crawl all over the outside of ISS with long enough cables, that two mutually isolated locations could be found (kind-of-a- can you hear me now? Kind of test). But NASA does not allow us the resources for that kind of approach.
But even if you did find such a location, or even if you did spend a few millions of dollars doing an RF analysis of such an arrangement, it would all change when ever anything moved. And things are always moving up there.
Also, not only does one not even attempt to plan weak signal same-band operations from the same Field Day site, one would never risk several years of planning and millions of dollars of effort on something that critical that might be desensed as soon as the solar arrays moved 10 degrees..
We had several amateurs do tests of several 2 meter radios to discover how much power on one 2m radio was needed to descense another 2m radio and the power level was down around 10 milliwatts at 100 foot separation and it still caused 10 dB desense. (I think I remembered those right)...
Unfortunaly then, we simply cannot plan on up and downlinks in the same band while hoping for independent operations without constant crew intervention with every single mode change that affects that band.
Bob Bruninga
Sent via sarex@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/sarex
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participants (10)
-
Darrell Bellerive -
Dave Larsen PhD -
Eric van de Weyer -
George Henry -
MM -
Patrick McGrane -
Patrick STODDARD (WD9EWK/VA7EWK) -
Ransom, Kenneth G. (JSC-OC)[BAR] -
Robert Bruninga -
Scott- Extingflame