On 23 Aug 2009 at 23:17, N0JY wrote:
I believe you are right, Bob. The total number of dissenting opinions at least on the -bb have been few. I have been silent, although tempted to reply, but I believe you have hit the nail on the head. I believe the "silent majority" is behind AMSAT.
Bob Bruninga wrote:
The broad membership believes in the AMSAT mission and contributes to help these poor souls make progress and hopes for the best.
Guessing on the "Silent majority" opinion is and will always be very tricky but what's this "silent majority" is waiting for and behind it's the next HEO namely called Eagle by AMSAT-NA but scapped due to numerous issues at AMSAT-NA.
If each time someone voice an opinion who is not what someone else opinion it is not appropriate to answer back using this kind of language " but I believe you have hit the nail on the head." "and not what a bunch of keyboard-jocky shack-potato's waste everyone's time whinnning about..." If you can only whine, then get out of the way..." And the ankle-bitters and whinning shack-potatoes win and will go on and on about how "they shoulda, coulda, woulda done better"... BUT, nothing was accomplished..."
Bob and Jerry we are in 2009 and internet is now a part of our life. It is not only the AMSAT journal who is now the only one sources of information. The context change at AMSAT-NA as soon as people start to comment and voices their opinions mainly through the internet but mentalities at AMSAT-NA never change.
You are right when you wrote "And since "they" are the ones spending 12-16 hours a day for years to BUILD it, then it is only human nature that they will build what THEY believe in" But if you only work for your own satisfaction ignoring others wishes and ideas you are going to hit a wall one day or another. Is it possible that actual AMSAT-NA problems come from this kind of attitude? I do what i want if you are not with me you are against me and i will ignore you... What happen when the crowds start to voices their opinions " the ones spending 12-16 hours a day for years to BUILD it" start to fight back the pressure making ultimatum "I will resign and try to do it if you can"
"A life lived in fear is a life half lived."
Is ITAR is really what stops the cooperation between AMSAT-NA and AMSAT-DL? even if both sign a cooperation agreement many years prior to this ITAR illusion? Could be if AMSAT-NA in the past was so aware of the "silent majority" desires they probably choose to go by theses desires instead of those of the few builders!
Trying to silence those who freely voices their opinions telling them "If you can only whine, then get out of the way..." is surely a way to promote the silent majority to express their opinions... As i said guessing on the "Silent majority" opinion is and will always be very tricky" mine is as good as yours and as written " The total number of dissenting opinions at least on the -bb have been few" just note the " number of dissenting opinions" and "have been few"" you will have the AMSAT-NA trend no matter what theses dissenting opinions are we just have to consider them as " have been few" as the validity and the right to express an opinion in AMSAT-NA is related to a math figures? In a sense they are right just ask any marketing firm about their client satisfaction, when they are satisfied they will tell to 3 others but when they are not satisfied they will tell to 10 others. Again it's very tricky to guess on the silent majority opinion!!
As Robert wrote "based on your logic no criticism whatsoever is warranted." Yes it is exactly what we all seen here from AMSAT-NA and by some of their blinded suppporters.
Jack also summarized the situation quite well even it was not his goal:
"The question is, what about those who left AMSAT or no longer pay due because they also - silently - are voting with thier talents, skills, and money which are not available... It is no problem to have a group which is in - at least tacit - agreement, just force the others out or ignore them until they leave."
Bingo! you put the finger on the plea but IMHO AMSAT-NA should change his mission "Its goal was to foster Amateur Radio's participation in space research and communication. AMSAT was founded to continue the efforts, begun in 1961, by Project OSCAR" to read "Its goal is to foster Amateur Radio's education and information and cooperation in space research and communication.AMSAT was founded to continue the efforts, begun in 1961, by Project OSCAR and now carried by universities and colleges.
Just note the "cooperation" just read an excerpt about the 2001 International Satellite Workshop sponsored by AMSAT-DL
"The closing day of the gathering was set aside for more-detailed discussions on various aspects and strategies for future missions. Representatives of nine AMSAT organizations, as well as of various space business groups, the European Space Agency and Arianespace attended the gathering."
Just return to the basics!!!
Could be at the next AMSAT-NA Space Symposium in October someone can make a proposal? It will at least take out a lot of pressure for the BOD who is still without a president and it will make possible to support the viable actual options eg: P3E by AMSAT-DL and support ARISS in their mission including the Suit/Box sat. This change in the goal will give the necessary slack to regroup and reform AMSAT-NA towards a more realistic mission as it is obvious that all the resources human and funding are now exhausted regarding an HEO and probably also for any other cube sats as it is no more AMSAT-NA who is the leader in the amateur satellite world.
It's not new look what happen in 2004:
"AMSAT at the Nanosat-3 Design Review
NASA and the AFRL had a review/poster session with the University Nanosat 3 team of universities just a few weeks ago. This was held near the Dulles Airport in the DC area. All 13 universities were in attendance. We also had a significant contingent of AMSAT leadership there including Tom Clark, W3IWI, Art Feller, W4ART, Perry Klein, W3PK, Mark Kanawati, N4TPY and Frank Bauer, KA3HDO. They provided significant guidance to the university students, the professors and to the NASA and AFRL members in attendance. There was a lot of AMSAT hardware development knowledge in that room. The AMSAT team members had some substantial one-on-one dialogue with the university teams on frequency coordination, dos and don'ts of spacecraft design, etc."
They surely can help providing expertise and counselling to all the various group an universities who are projecting to put something in orbit. Their communication expertise will and still is one of their greatest assets. It is by this asset they will be able to survive and can have the best opportunity to still be able to fly a transponder (See PE1RAH William Leijenaar small transponder project) in orbit. Also maintaining their web site can also be a nodal point of amateur satellite expertise who can be promoted to be "The expertise place on the internet".
Failure is not an option but targetting any launch or satellite construction is now out of reach and will only lead to even more failure and deception. It is better to move in one direction than remaining stand still.
Luc Leblanc VE2DWE Skype VE2DWE www.qsl.net/ve2dwe WAC BASIC CW PHONE SATELLITE