Thanks, Ray and Mark. That answers the curious question, confirming the “Challenging” aspect of the bird. Probably not going to be one I try much just because of the limited station I can run.

If the antennas did not, and/or won’t deploy, that would severely compromise the radiation pattern. You would have an easier time if the face with the antennas still in the stowed position was directly facing both stations. Broadside or blocked by the cube would be blocked by the structure/boards would limit RF in and out. Kind of like body blocking technique used in close in transmitter hunting. Take the antenna off the radio and use your body to block the signals. If your radio was not exactly facing the “Fox”, but blocked by your tissue, the signal would be lower.

From: crohtun via AMSAT-BB amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Sunday, August 1, 2021 4:47 PM To: tjschuessler@verizon.net; amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: [AMSAT-BB] Re: AO-109, how much uplink power needed.

No luck on two cw skeds. Couldn’t hear my downlink and other stations couldn’t hear theirs. How much power was reacing the bird is hard to say in my case because the antennas are in the attic.

Ray

KN2K

Sent from the all new AOL app for iOS https://apps.apple.com/us/app/aol-news-email-weather-video/id646100661

On Sunday, August 1, 2021, 5:13 PM, tjschuessler--- via AMSAT-BB <amsat-bb@amsat.org mailto:amsat-bb@amsat.org > wrote:

So last week, Fox 1E was opened up to, well, challenging use. Downlink power is quite low so the encouragement is to use highly efficient modes like FT4 or CW as SSB may prove difficult.

Since that announcement, I have not heard much from BB members, on whether they have been able to make contacts, and if so, how much/little power was needed to get through. The article on “Characterization” of the bird, and the subsequent info on it’s being opened for what use can be made of it, did not address this topic. If one were to try it, I am sure they may feel it would take a quite substantial uplink power to be heard back. B ut maybe not so much power anyway.

I, and I am sure others, are interested in hearing from folks who have attempted and failed, or succeeded in at least hearing themselves, or even making a QSO, as to how much uplink power it did take.

-----------------------------------------------------------

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There was a post about it from Robert Bankston to amsat members August 6th.

On Mon, Aug 16, 2021, 6:29 PM robertinorbit@webtv.net wrote:

Any news in this ao-109? Why does it have an OSCAR number if it never worked? Yet? Is the dashboard data valid? The solar V all seem correct.? I am not trying to be negative but the facts speak for themselves. Not that I am saying that I personally have the right to know these facts. But the members do pay to run this show. Maybe I am confused as usual.

KFoG

---

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Robert,

To answer your first question, AO-109 has an OSCAR number because it DOES work, albeit at low power. People have made QSOs via FT4 and CW. The telemetry is perfectly valid, although only a few stations with big antennas and good passes have been able to receive signals that can be decoded. You can look on the dashboard as you have done, or download the whole body of telemetry via the free FoxTelem software. Looking at the telemetry, you can easily see the main problem with 109--the power output, which is being measured as somewhere around 7-8mW.

For details, see the article that N8MH and I wrote in the latest AMSAT journal (May-June 2021) and an update (linked from the front page of the AMSAT web site): https://www.amsat.org/debugging-ao-109-an-update/. We are trying to be transparent with these articles. As you can see from the length of these articles, it's hard to be thorough in a quick post on the BB or Twitter.

73,

Burns WB1FJ AMSAT Flight Software Volunteer

On Mon, Aug 16, 2021 at 8:29 PM robertinorbit@webtv.net wrote:

Any news in this ao-109? Why does it have an OSCAR number if it never worked? Yet? Is the dashboard data valid? The solar V all seem correct.? I am not trying to be negative but the facts speak for themselves. Not that I am saying that I personally have the right to know these facts. But the members do pay to run this show. Maybe I am confused as usual.

KFoG

---

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I concur, which is why I am not renewing my AMSAT membership.  It was mentioned on this list a while ago that they are months behind in putting together an updated chart of satellites and frequencies. We used to be able to count on getting one of those on an annual basis. Much unusable hardware circling the Earth.  No specific publicly known plans for upcoming launches. I will donate to ARISS, but I'm probably finished with AMSAT.

Steve AI9IN   ----- Original Message ----- From: robertinorbit@webtv.net Date: 08/17/21 11:08 To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: [AMSAT-BB] Re: AO-109, how much uplink power needed.

NO that would be not true. calling 8mW from something that should be putting out 440mW is not WORKING it is barely limping along and unusable for the user base. calling it "working" is spin and borders on a lie as far as i am concerned. let's not play games and say untrue statements please. how many bad satellites now? ok? it does not look very good whether you want to hear it or not. that is the truth amsat. i am tired of being lied to by american business people. i pay for a membership. that does not give anybody the right to abuse the funds, playing games. nobody seems to know why nothing is working lately.

-----------------------------------------------------------

"what he said"!

Thank you Jean Marc.

Chuck N7BFO

On 8/17/2021 9:00 AM, Jean Marc Momple wrote:

Guys,

This is a very hard stand which I fully understand as at sometimes had the same kind of reaction. However after second thought:

1. We are all volunteers in that game including many leaders devoting time and effort to promote the hobby and space,
2. About 20% of CubeSat sent to space fail due to transmission/radio issues;
3. AMSAT-NL got a series of bad luck with the batteries and Rx on AO-109;
4. Yes, the management may have some shortcomings, but again they are volunteers and trying to do their best, may be others could do better but the reality is just that they are elected members by a majority (I may have not vote for them but respect the majority rule).
5. I believe all AMSAT organisation globally need our financial support to put the birds up there, I am a member of both AMSAT-NL and AMSAT-DL and given a few cents as donation as sincerely believe that many drops can create a river.
6. All may criticize (I did so in the past) but providing ideas and suggestions for improvement would be much more positive but understand that it is not really easy.

Our organisations worldwide need our support to put birds in space (as there is no cheap solution) and if all stop supporting theses organisations very soon we will have no satellites at all.

I therefore suggest that one an all continue to support AMSAT worldwide with their membership and donations, in case not happy with a particular AMSAT organisation there are others around the world to support so that we keep our presence in space.

Just a wishful thinking.

73

Jean Marc (3B8DU)

...

On Aug 17, 2021, at 7:32 PM, Steve Kristoff skristof@etczone.com wrote:

I concur, which is why I am not renewing my AMSAT membership. It was mentioned on this list a while ago that they are months behind in putting together an updated chart of satellites and frequencies. We used to be able to count on getting one of those on an annual basis. Much unusable hardware circling the Earth. No specific publicly known plans for upcoming launches. I will donate to ARISS, but I'm probably finished with AMSAT.

Steve AI9IN

----- Original Message ----- From: robertinorbit@webtv.net Date: 08/17/21 11:08 To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: [AMSAT-BB] Re: AO-109, how much uplink power needed.

NO that would be not true. calling 8mW from something that should be putting out 440mW is not WORKING it is barely limping along and unusable for the user base. calling it "working" is spin and borders on a lie as far as i am concerned. let's not play games and say untrue statements please. how many bad satellites now? ok? it does not look very good whether you want to hear it or not. that is the truth amsat. i am tired of being lied to by american business people. i pay for a membership. that does not give anybody the right to abuse the funds, playing games. nobody seems to know why nothing is working lately.

---

---

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---

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Bob – You are right, of course.

Steve – The updated chart of satellites was posted to the website. Is this what you wanted? https://launch.amsat.org/resources/Documents/Frequency%20Guide/AMSAT%20Frequ...

73, Steve N9IP -- Steve Belter, seb@wintek.commailto:seb@wintek.com

From: Bob Bruninga bruninga@usna.edu Date: Tuesday, August 17, 2021 at 3:04 PM To: Steve Kristoff skristof@etczone.com Cc: AMSAT-BB amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: [AMSAT-BB] Re: AO-109, how much uplink power needed.

It was mentioned on this list a while ago that "they" are months behind in putting together an updated chart of satellites and frequencies. Steve AI9IN

Who is this "they". In a volunteer organization, the "they" is "us".

Maybe you could volunteer to do that? Just research the published info and various status pages and assemble the info and put it out. I put togetther a simple page so summarize all the APRS satelitees which includes all the links to their info and live telemetry: https://link.edgepilot.com/s/2da33c37/3EUaftqCOkylw9lvnfjctQ?u=http://aprs.o...

Yes, it is just one list of many. But it is still part of the needed info. Bob, Wb4APR

----- Original Message ----- From: robertinorbit@webtv.netmailto:robertinorbit@webtv.net Date: 08/17/21 11:08 To: amsat-bb@amsat.orgmailto:amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: [AMSAT-BB] Re: AO-109, how much uplink power needed.

NO that would be not true. calling 8mW from something that should be putting out 440mW is not WORKING it is barely limping along and unusable for the user base. calling it "working" is spin and borders on a lie as far as i am concerned. let's not play games and say untrue statements please. how many bad satellites now? ok? it does not look very good whether you want to hear it or not. that is the truth amsat. i am tired of being lied to by american business people. i pay for a membership. that does not give anybody the right to abuse the funds, playing games. nobody seems to know why nothing is working lately.

---

On 08/17/21 10:08, robertinorbit@webtv.net wrote:

calling 8mW from something that should be putting out 440mW is not WORKING it is barely limping along and unusable for the user base.

Hello Robert,

It works better than empty space, which would not translate your signals from one band to another and send them back to you.

Think of it as an exercise in weak-signal work; you might need this experience in the future for a higher-orbit satellite.

As always, AMSAT welcomes volunteers! If you'd like to be part of the hard-working corps designing, building, documenting, and launching satellites, please visit:

https://www.amsat.org/volunteer-for-amsat/

73,

--- Zach N0ZGO

I was going to let this go because a number of people have commented, but I do want to say one thing as a volunteer who helps build satellites.

I tried to answer a question as truthfully and candidly as possible. I was essentially called a liar. When people get called liars trying to answer questions, they are less likely to try to answer questions in the future. I urge everyone on this list (and every other list, FB group and other social media platform for that matter) to read what you wrote before you hit send and think about whether you would say that in person.

I will also add that those of us who worked for years on Fox-1E are also terribly disappointed in its performance. Believe me, we understand and don't expect anyone to be happy about it! However, I AM pleased that in the last few months it seems to have changed from a DEAD satellite to one that at least some people can use and from which we can get some telemetry to make future satellites better. The paper that I referred to earlier, especially the followup on the AMSAT website, DOES tell our best guesses as to the problem, and believe me, we are trying to find ways for future satellites to avoid every problem that we have hypothesized.

Burns WB1FJ

Just to be clear, you can get an OSCAR number without a working transponder too.

Needs downlink only. See AO-95 as an example.

https://www.amsat.org/oscar-numbers-policy/

73, John Brier KG4AKV

On Tue, Aug 17, 2021, 09:00 Burns Fisher wb1fj-bb@fisher.cc wrote:

Robert,

To answer your first question, AO-109 has an OSCAR number because it DOES work, albeit at low power. People have made QSOs via FT4 and CW. The telemetry is perfectly valid, although only a few stations with big antennas and good passes have been able to receive signals that can be decoded. You can look on the dashboard as you have done, or download the whole body of telemetry via the free FoxTelem software. Looking at the telemetry, you can easily see the main problem with 109--the power output, which is being measured as somewhere around 7-8mW.

For details, see the article that N8MH and I wrote in the latest AMSAT journal (May-June 2021) and an update (linked from the front page of the AMSAT web site): https://www.amsat.org/debugging-ao-109-an-update/. We are trying to be transparent with these articles. As you can see from the length of these articles, it's hard to be thorough in a quick post on the BB or Twitter.

73,

Burns WB1FJ AMSAT Flight Software Volunteer

On Mon, Aug 16, 2021 at 8:29 PM robertinorbit@webtv.net wrote:

...

Any news in this ao-109? Why does it have an OSCAR number if it never worked? Yet? Is the dashboard data valid? The solar V all seem correct.? I am not trying to be negative but the facts speak for themselves. Not that I am saying that I personally have the right to know these facts. But the members do pay to run this show. Maybe I am confused as usual.

KFoG

---

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---

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