AMSAT-BB February 2009

171 participants
239 discussions

Re: the tyranny of the military
by Edward Cole 24 Feb '09

24 Feb '09

Hmm, Well, too bad AO-51 isn't mode-VU. I could get on with my 55kW ERP 2m Moon-bounce signal and "fry the little sucker"...He he (I'm only kidding) ;-) Whatever "rule" that is devised, it would bring some order to the chaos! I recall a big station acting as "gate keeper" or "Net" (if you want to call it that), and helping facilitate quite few QSO's thru the short time span of a Leo pass. OK, I'm back to Oscar-Zero (never mind my noise) ;-) 73, Ed - KL7UW At 06:13 AM 2/24/2009, Scott Gillis N3UJJ wrote: > > >WOW !!!!! > >It's time I jumped in with my 2 cents worth of opinion (that's all it's >worth) > > > >I might not agree with Bob 100% of the time, but I when I'm being honest >with myself I realize that for the most part, Bob's posts to this mailing >list are well thought out. I have never seen Bob get emotional (in the time >I have been on the list), even when others are attacking him. > >In all fairness, when I got started in APRS, I made some really bad >screw-ups that would have gotten badly flamed by some, but Bob took the time >to politely inform me of my mistakes. >Bob can be biased at times, but so are most of us (at times). But what he >has contributed to OUR hobby has been enormous, and I think he deserves >credit for his contributions. > > > > > >Scott Gillis N3UJJ > <http://n3ujj.com/hamshack.html> My Hamshack > <http://location.n3ujj.com/> My Current Location > <http://weather.n3ujj.com/> My Amateur Weather Station > > > >Most folks are about as happy as they make up their minds to be. >~Abraham Lincoln~ > > > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: amsat-bb-bounces(a)amsat.org [mailto:[email protected]] On >Behalf Of Thomas McGrane >Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2009 09:36 >To: amsat-bb(a)amsat.org >Subject: [amsat-bb] the tyranny of the military > > > >Greetings from Patrick N2OEQ > > > >Regarding bruninga's post suggesting even more control over the > >satellite.... Bruninga and the military has too much control over the > >space program and amsat satellites. > > > >Look what happened to the space station, years of military devised > >packet position reporting and very little "human" contact. > > > >I recommend you all think for yourselves and remember, this is AMATEUR > >radio, NOT PROFESSIONAL. > > > >Regarding activity on oscar 51, its great to hear the excitment of new > >operators but very disappointing to hear so many regulars almost every > >day. Give some new people a chance. > > > >Bruninga reminds me of the movie title, "the world is not enough" > > > >Think for yourselves! > > > >pat > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > >Sent via AMSAT-BB(a)amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. > >Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! > >Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb > >_______________________________________________ >Sent via AMSAT-BB(a)amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. >Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! >Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb

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The Tragedy of the commons
by Bob Bruninga 24 Feb '09

24 Feb '09

The situation on AO-51 is called the "tragedy of the commons" and is as predictable as day and night and an inescapable result of human nature. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons No amount of grousing and complaining, and high minded condemnation of others is going to change that. What we need to do is not try to change human nature (my wife has been trying to do that her entire life with little to show for it), but either live with it and take advantage of it, or change the paradigm. I have been recommending for years that we solve it like we do any amateur radio net. That is, operate with volunteer net control operators that take checkins by region or other discriminant for the duration of the pass. On each exchange, he announces the next narrow selection and takes checkins. Ever mindful of the satellite location on the map. Examples from a pass from Sandiego to Maine: "This is N6XXX taking checkins from K6's in SOCAL" "Now W6's... Now A6's.... Now N6's. "This is N6XXX taking checkins from HT's in SOCAL "now W0's... now K0's, now ... "Handing over to Net Control in the Central States... and so forth. How do you define Net Control? Easy. the first guy with the most power and stamina. Can you think of problems, sure! There are all kinds of complaints and issues and why-not-me, and how-could you limit my rights... etc... that we will hear, but operating as a net has always been the method in radio to gain some semblance of order, and we should be proud of our tradition in that regard. What about contesting and points, and scores, etc? That is easy. We define a contact as a 2 way between every person that got his full call and grid or location through. After all, that is what a net control does, facilitate the many-way exchange of information between all users. If net control hears of a DEMO, or DX station or special event, or emergency traffic, or island expedition, he can then give that station the attention it needs. Anyway, this method cannot be worse than what we have now (which is a free-for-all which is setup to fail as the tragedy of the commons). We operated PCSAT2 FM voice repeater sometimes with a net control and it was nice and orderly and fun. Anyway, there is the solution. Either try it, or keep complaining forever... Bob, Wb4APR

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Re: the tyranny of the military
by Scott Gillis N3UJJ 24 Feb '09

24 Feb '09

WOW !!!!! It's time I jumped in with my 2 cents worth of opinion (that's all it's worth) I might not agree with Bob 100% of the time, but I when I'm being honest with myself I realize that for the most part, Bob's posts to this mailing list are well thought out. I have never seen Bob get emotional (in the time I have been on the list), even when others are attacking him. In all fairness, when I got started in APRS, I made some really bad screw-ups that would have gotten badly flamed by some, but Bob took the time to politely inform me of my mistakes. Bob can be biased at times, but so are most of us (at times). But what he has contributed to OUR hobby has been enormous, and I think he deserves credit for his contributions. Scott Gillis N3UJJ <http://n3ujj.com/hamshack.html> My Hamshack <http://location.n3ujj.com/> My Current Location <http://weather.n3ujj.com/> My Amateur Weather Station Most folks are about as happy as they make up their minds to be. ~Abraham Lincoln~ -----Original Message----- From: amsat-bb-bounces(a)amsat.org [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Thomas McGrane Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2009 09:36 To: amsat-bb(a)amsat.org Subject: [amsat-bb] the tyranny of the military Greetings from Patrick N2OEQ Regarding bruninga's post suggesting even more control over the satellite.... Bruninga and the military has too much control over the space program and amsat satellites. Look what happened to the space station, years of military devised packet position reporting and very little "human" contact. I recommend you all think for yourselves and remember, this is AMATEUR radio, NOT PROFESSIONAL. Regarding activity on oscar 51, its great to hear the excitment of new operators but very disappointing to hear so many regulars almost every day. Give some new people a chance. Bruninga reminds me of the movie title, "the world is not enough" Think for yourselves! pat _______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB(a)amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb

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Re: The Tragedy of the commons
by Bruce 24 Feb '09

24 Feb '09

Very interesting Bob..... I had just sent this to a friend of mine to look at before sending to the bb. It is basically the same thing. However, taking checkins is too time consuming, this is a much easier plan. When dx stations are working HF and they are operating split, they can very easily move up and down the band to find a station that is in the clear. Also, no one has a problem hearing them (except for the occasional guy that forgets to hit split). However, when on the satellite, you do not have the luxury of split operations on FM. The dx station keeps trying to get back to the one station he wants to work, others keep calling and it is futile. By the time you work that one guy, minutes have gone by and both are bouncing call signs back and forth until correct. I worked a bunch of rare grid squares over the years (as I am sure many others have done like WB4APR, KO4MA, N5AFV, W5ACM, WD9EWK, WI7P (former W7SFI) etc) and I have found the easiest way to maximize your contacts is to first listen and write down all the calls you hear for about a minute. This is the quickest way to get them all down without having everyone stepping on each other. Since the stronger stations will repeat themselves several times, you will have a chance to get them correct. Then one of the regular ops (the alligator, you might say) has to tell everyone to stop transmitting for a minute and see who the dx station has heard. The dx station comes back and says I have K1KK, K2KK, K3KK etc. As the dx station was heard by everyone and he answered back with your call, you have a two-way contact. Now, those that he did not hear will give out their calls while all the others are happy. If he got a call sign incorrect, he just needs to write down the correction when he hears it and then acknowledge it on the next go around. After a minute, someone has the stations break and he again the dx station comes back and gives those that he has heard. Everyone that is on the satellite should have the opportunity to get their contact as the big fish will get plucked first and the weaker stations as you go on. This also means they all don't have to say, 'thanks for the contact.' Ten people saying, 'thanks for the contact, have fun' will wind up wasting a minute or two which further limits others from making a contact. It basically involves someone being a 'monitor or pilot' for the dx op because they don't have the power to get through and do it themselves. It can be anyone on that pass that just has to say after a minute or so, 'hang on guys let's see who he has heard.' In no more than 5 minutes he should have about 30 contacts, if there were that many on the pass. The training that the new dx op receives is great because it gets them on the air. However, with an FM transponder, you have to do things a bit differently to maximize your efforts. If we had some type of procedure, then everyone that tries to get the dx station on all dxpeditions would know when someone says see who he has heard, they would pause and give him a break to give his list. It will work very smoothly once everyone understands how to do it. Even those that do not subscribe to amsat-bb will know when someone says, 'stop transmitting, see who he has heard' will understand what that means. As the AO-51 command team setup the second transponder for the dxpedition's use, those that are not into hunting dx/grids can remain on the primary transponder. 73...bruce On 2/24/2009 7:31 AM, Bob Bruninga wrote: > The situation on AO-51 is called the "tragedy of the commons" and is aspredictable as day and night and an inescapable result of human nature. See > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons > > No amount of grousing and complaining, and high minded condemnation of others is going to change that. What we need to do is not try to change human nature (my wife has been trying to do that her entire life with little to show for it), but either live with it and take advantage of it, orchange the paradigm. > > I have been recommending for years that we solve it like we do any amateur radio net. That is, operate with volunteer net control operators that take checkins by region or other discriminant for the duration of the pass. On each exchange, he announces the next narrow selection and takes checkins. Ever mindful of the satellite location on the map. > > Examples from a pass from Sandiego to Maine: > "This is N6XXX taking checkins from K6's in SOCAL" > "Now W6's... Now A6's.... Now N6's. > "This is N6XXX taking checkins from HT's in SOCAL > "now W0's... now K0's, now ... > "Handing over to Net Control in the Central States... > and so forth. > > How do you define Net Control? Easy. the first guy with the most powerand stamina. > > Can you think of problems, sure! There are all kinds of complaints and issues and why-not-me, and how-could you limit my rights... etc... that we will hear, but operating as a net has always been the method in radio to gain some semblance of order, and we should be proud of our tradition in that regard. > > What about contesting and points, and scores, etc? That is easy. We define a contact as a 2 way between every person that got his full call and grid or location through. After all, that is what a net control does, facilitate the many-way exchange of information between all users. > > If net control hears of a DEMO, or DX station or special event, or emergency traffic, or island expedition, he can then give that station the attention it needs. > > Anyway, this method cannot be worse than what we have now (which is a free-for-all which is setup to fail as the tragedy of the commons). We operated PCSAT2 FM voice repeater sometimes with a net control and it was nice and orderly and fun. > > Anyway, there is the solution. Either try it, or keep complaining forever... > > Bob, Wb4APR > _______________________________________________ > Sent via AMSAT-BB(a)amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. > Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! > Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb > > -- Bruce Paige, KK5DO AMSAT Director Contests and Awards ARRL Awards Manager (WAS, 5BWAS, VUCC), VE Houston AMSAT Net - Wed 0200z on SkyScanner Satellite Radio Network on Galaxy-25 @97° West, Transponder 23 (12115 Vert), Symbol Rate: 22425, APID: 1794 (DVB Free To Air) Also streaming MP3 at http://www.amsatnet.com Podcast at http://www.amsatnet.com/podcast.xml or iTunes Latest satellite news on the ARRL Audio News http://www.arrl.org

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ao-51
by Steve Howard AB0XE 24 Feb '09

24 Feb '09

Good morning all I like reading the amsat-bb everyday. I have learned alot by doing so. I am a newbie to the satellites, only starting around Christmas time. Yes AO-51 and ISS can get crowded, much like a contest station. When it does get like that I usually don't try to transmit. Instead I listen and practice copying down all those fast calls and grids. I consider Ham Radio to also be a listening hobby not just a transmitting hobby. What I have done is look at what passes will work the best for me. In my case its the early morning passes before work, the ones that come down over Canada. I tend to do alot of listening on the evening passes no matter how crowded it gets. The fact that I can hear XE2PHH or XE2MWY or Patrick portable in Mexico off of a satellite and I am sitting in a basement in Minnesota is still pretty exciting to this old man. Yes, even I know who the K3 station is on AO-07. But he took the time to work me when I was running only an elk antenna and a none duplex radio that was off frequency. He also took the time to send me an e-mail to encourage me to work the satellites. In fact it was my very first satellite contact and I had little idea of what to do So from this newbies point of view the good parts of satellite radio by far out weigh any negative parts of satellite radio 73 Steve Howard AB0XE

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Trying a Handheld for the First Time
by Kent Frazier 24 Feb '09

24 Feb '09

Hello everyone, I am going to try using my handheld for the first time today (February 24, 2009) during the 2200UTC SO-50 pass over DM91. Since my radio is 2m only I'll be listening to the downlink on my mobile rig. I have no idea if or how this is going to work. If anyone is able to make a recording of me during this pass it would be really appreciated if they would email a copy to me. I'll be trying again on the following passes, all SO-50: February 25, 2009 20:47 and 22:27 UTC February 26, 2009 21:15 UTC February 27, 2009 20:06 and 21:45 UTC (Depending on what plans my daughter has) February 28, 2009 2033 UTC Thanks, 73, Kent K5KNT ARRL AMSAT #36765 Sent from: San Angelo Texas United States.

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Needless discussions re AO51
by Dave Guimont 24 Feb '09

24 Feb '09

This is NOT a criticism of AO51. Use it, such as it is, and enjoy it, but try the following: I was on FO29 with my friend, Leo, W7JPL, in AZ, and we had a nice 10 minute conversation, 100% readability on FO29. Much as we have been doing for over 25 years on FO29, and most of the other LEO'S and HEO'S. I spent the other 10 minutes of a 20 minute pass searching the pass band for other stations. And using minimal antennas.... Most of NW Mexico was visible, western half of the US and Canada, all of Alaska, and the NE portion of Russia, and there was NO ONE ELSE IN THE PASSBAND!! The downlink of FO29 goes from 435.800 to 435.900, with a corresponding reversed uplink on 2 meters, 146.00 to 145.900. Room for dozens of ssb and or cw contacts. I've instructed 14-18 year old hams in San Diego, and plus a copy of Marty Davidoff's RADIO AMATEUR'S SATELLITE MANUAL they operated easily....The manual is available from ARRL.. Try the manual, and if you have questions, I will gladly answer them, or tell you where to get the answer.. 73, Dave, WB6LLO dguimon1(a)san.rr.com Disagree: I learn.... Pulling for P3E...

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Fw: AO-51 2/23/09 7:09PM Local
by Andrew Glasbrenner 24 Feb '09

24 Feb '09

----- Original Message ----- From: "KP1-5 Project/Desecheo 2009" <kp1-5project(a)att.net> To: "'Andrew Glasbrenner'" <glasbrenner(a)mindspring.com> Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 8:50 PM Subject: AO-51 2/23/09 7:09PM Local > XE3ISS > N4AC > NZ5NZ > VE3VC > N4HUF > N3TL > KC8NZJ > WA4NVM > WA4SCA > K3VN > N1RCN > > We heard many other callsign we could have gotten to but couldn't get into > the repeater. It's fun. >

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K5D an embarrassment
by Jim Danehy 24 Feb '09

24 Feb '09

I no longer read the AMSAT bulletin board. I have intentionally not operated the satellites for several months. I have some local friends who still do read AMSAT BB and attempt to operate the satellites. They forwarded to me W4AS and WD9EWK's emails concerning the (quite predictable) debacle with K5D. My two local friends who continue to read AMSAT BB and operate AO 51 are very disgusted with the operating on AO 51. It got to the point with me that any attempts to show leadership by example or the written word received a substantial amount of push back. So I put my ham radio operating in a different mode. I have been a licensed amateur since October 1952 and I have worked every DX entity except North Korea. My total on the ARRL DXCC Honor Roll is 364 entities. I only cite my background in order to show some sense of credibility and knowledge. I worked the satellites back in circa 1974 ( Oscar 6 ) when it took some technical savvy to adjust for the Doppler effect. It was fun and working some DX was a thrill that still lingers. Upon my recent retirement I decided to equip my station with a satellite setup. I have a substantial amount of money invested ( $3500 ) in antennas and transceiver. I can work just about anything that I can hear. Since August 2008 until December I made more than 800 QSOs in 200 grids and 15 countries. I met a lot of fine people who gave me good advice. Unfortunately the operation of AO 51 is a large embarrassment. I have never in 56 years of operating ever seen demonstrated such poor operating procedures. I am not writing this note to trash AMSAT. I could continue to operate, experiment and enjoy HF and VHF radio and ignore the Satellite operation. However, I have always thought when you see something that is terribly wrong you have an obligation for the ( Ham and AMSAT ) community to speak out. That is the spirit in which I write. Operating an FM repeater on a satellite is asking for trouble. To attempt to work DX on an FM repeater is a guarantee for trouble. Some operators have very little operating experience of any kind. They take the lead of others they hear operating. I read the AMSAT Journal in a matter of minutes and never look at it again. The articles remind me of an IEEE Journal. Most ( not all ) of the authors are not currently active on the satellites based upon my constant use of the birds for four months. Very little is written about how to operate. There is a need for such articles. Sebastian, W4AS is correct in stating that there are a substantial number of users who never read or are even aware of the AMSAT BB. Fewer yet are AMSAT members who get the Journal. If you think that AO 51 represents the normal operating ability of the average ham you are dreaming. AO 51 represents the VERY WORST operating I have every witnessed. It is an embarrassment. I could list dozens of examples but that would be a waste of time. AO 51 is not the only satellite. I had to give up on AO 7 because of a K3 station who continues to use high power and trashes the transponder for others who would like to use it. I have had numerous people write me about that station. You can copy him in 5 or 6 spots when he transmits. That is an embarrassment too. Yet nobody speaks out. It reminds me of the fable about the Emperor and his new clothes. I have heard some licensed operators turn the microphone over to their kid who then CQs after CQs. . . .I list that of the many infractions because it is easy to cure. Tell the operator to take the microphone back. The satellites with transponders go relatively unused. Why ? If you do not know the answer then you do not understand the question. To those that continue to use and hopefully enjoy AO 51 jump in and speak out when you see somebody doing something that is not helpful to the satellite community. I think Sebastian did. I know that Patrick also has his heart in the right place. I recently travelled to the Turks & Caicos Islands for a vacation and some radio operating. I got to use a rare prefix VQ5 rather than VP5. A couple of my local friends asked if I was going to operate the satellites. I just looked at them and smiled. They did too. I worked HF and it was enjoyable. 73 Jim W9VNE

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K5D from CM98kx?
by Greg D. 23 Feb '09

23 Feb '09

Hi folks, Does anyone know if either of the sats being used by K5D have a mutual window with CM98kx (that would be me)? I just realized that none of my software knows how to compute this, and all of the passes I've looked at don't appear to cover us both. If there is a pass, it seems like it would be vanishingly low on the south eastern horizon. Thanks, Greg KO6TH _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live™ Hotmail®…more than just e-mail. http://windowslive.com/howitworks?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_hm_justgotbetter_how…

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AMSAT-BB February 2009