July 2020 - AMSAT-BB - mailman.amsat.org

Why we are having this big unpleasant argument on your satellite mailing list
by Bruce Perens 14 Jul '20

14 Jul '20

Most of you are members of AMSAT. IMO the organization has some serious problems, and as members it is your duty to steer the organization with your votes. That means that you should remain aware of what is going on and you should make an informed vote. The satellite discussions go on, mostly uninterrupted, all year. A short break for politics is not unreasonable, and acrimonious discussion is to be expected when we take that break. Organisations are run by people who would not be doing the work if they did not have strong emotions about it. And they all have their own failings. Unfortunately, volunteer non-profit directors (and many public ones in big corporations) never learn a critical skill of democracy: *how to deal properly with opposition. *That is the root of what we are arguing about now. Opposition are not the enemy! Yet, they are clearly being treated as such. They are simply people who would reform the organization or take it in a different direction from the incumbents. In this case, Michelle and Patrick, before they were elected, were the loyal opposition - dedicated to a better organization, and deeply troubled by the decisions and conduct of the incumbent board. The incumbent's response was not to work with the opposition, but to hunker down and use lawyers. To the incumbent's great distress, the very same people got sent to the board by the membership! Leading to more lawyers. IMO the incumbents should have read this as a signal from the membership, rather than doubling down their resistance. The sad reality is that the newly-elected directors have never been allowed to function as directors. You should be concerned, since they are the people whom you elected to represent you. The main means used to disable your elected representatives has been refusal by the incumbents to hold board meetings. This refusal is almost total, with exactly *one* meeting being held after the organization's annual convention. The second means used to disenfranchise the newly-elected directors was that the incumbents withheld information which a director would generally be expected to have access to. As it happened, this information was at least in part discussion of those very same people, and contracting of legal counsel in a process against them. Every board has the right to legal counsel. But it's expensive, and must be used wisely. This was not a wise use. A wise use would have been to engage the opposition rather than to hunker down. One very large cause of all of this is that the same people have been running AMSAT for a very long time, and it becomes an echo chamber after a while - the us-vs-them mentality of the board vs. the opposition - but really the board vs. everyone else - becomes self-reinforcing. This is obviously wrong for the organization. The solution is simple, and every organization needs it: *regular turn-over of the people in the organization's leadership. *Not the stratification that we currently have. You can fix this by electing more new blood to the board. Thanks Bruce -- Bruce Perens - CEO at stealth startup. I'll tell you what it is eventually :-)

4 3

Re: [amsat-bb] Members Please Read (Bruce Perens)
by Paul F. Merrill 14 Jul '20

14 Jul '20

> > Bruce - I responded to you privately - it took effort on your part to > choose to add the entire group to your reply. By doing so, you've > extablished, for me at least, your level of trustworthiness and integrity > in this discussion. Paul > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 11:09:12 -0700 > From: Bruce Perens <bruce(a)perens.com> > To: "Paul F. Merrill" <marinesvcs(a)gmail.com>, AMSAT BB > <amsat-bb(a)amsat.org> > Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Members Please Read > Message-ID: > < > CAK2MWOv13HXELW1kRJiZWGo2GUTBXgOV39atn5xVWY5SrKztzw(a)mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > The point I was trying to make was that by posing Robert's Rules as the > tool of unsavory individuals, you seem to pose all rules that way. I think > we should both agree that corporate directors should know their bylaws. It > was my experience that Clayton did not read them before taking on operating > the AMSAT election. AMSAT had to be told that it had a responsibility to > provide addresses to the candidates for campaigning. The bylaws also call > for the organizations publications to be available for campaigning - which > is still not being fulfilled. > > Thanks > > Bruce > > On Mon, Jul 13, 2020, 12:31 AM Paul F. Merrill <marinesvcs(a)gmail.com> > wrote: > > > I know what they are. It was an example, perhaps too subtle, of the > > continually-plumbed depths of human dipshittery. > > > > On Sun, Jul 12, 2020 at 23:01 Bruce Perens <bruce(a)perens.com> wrote: > > > >> Paul, > >> > >> Roberts Rules are regarding parliamentary procedure. AMSAT's bylaws are > >> at > >> > https://www.amsat.org/bylaws-of-the-radio-amateur-satellite-corporation/ > >> . They do not specify parliamentary procedure. They are about > >> responsibilities of a director, elections, etc. And if you have the > choice, > >> Roberts is an antique, good parliamentarians use Sturgis. > >> > >> Bruce > >> > >> On Sun, Jul 12, 2020, 9:12 PM Paul F. Merrill via AMSAT-BB < > >> amsat-bb(a)amsat.org> wrote: > >> > >>> I agree that this mailing list has strayed from its strongest > >>> contribution: > >>> satellite information, discussion, and mentoring. > >>> > >>> I come from, and have been on the BOD of, a professional organization > >>> for a > >>> number of years now. > >>> > >>> FWIW, I know too well that an organization often lawyers up to protect > >>> itself, and in our issues, our attorney was engaged to act solely on > >>> behalf > >>> of the Organization and not necessarily current management. > >>> > >>> This thread has turned in to a long, ugly diatribe filled with > >>> accusations, > >>> counter-accusations, and painfully-obvious shills. I am a > >>> recently-renewed > >>> member who doesn?t have a dog in the fight, so I just want what?s best > >>> for > >>> AMSAT. > >>> > >>> Sadly, the stereotypes are starting to show - the members who > contribute > >>> nothing but want to tear down those ?In power,? the members who > >>> contribute > >>> nothing and don?t want anyone to make waves, and the few who actually > do > >>> anything. As a number of people have commented, working in a > non-profit > >>> or > >>> unpaid leadership role is utterly thankless, which is lost on many > >>> people - > >>> especially those who have never labored in this sort of endeavor. > >>> > >>> My favorite story from our times of trouble is when our Parliamentarian > >>> said, ?Roberts Rules are the last refuge of a scoundrel. Grown men and > >>> women should be able to comport themselves reasonably...but then I?d be > >>> out > >>> of a job.? I?m taking a little license with his exact words, but the > >>> sentiment, along with my experience, formed my native distrust of those > >>> who > >>> are right and everyone and everything before them is wrong. > So...there?s > >>> my bias. I will examine that, and all the information I can before I > >>> vote. I hope everyone else will take the time and expend the effort to > >>> vote as intelligently as they can. > >>> > >>> My overriding guidance to my Association is that we contribute to the > >>> group > >>> so that we all benefit from the group. A strong organization should > >>> outlive us. > >>> > >>> Personally, I can?t wait to vote and hopefully put a fork in this. > >>> > >>> Paul / W7IV > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> ????????- > >>> > >>> Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2020 19:27:24 -0700 > >>> From: "Daron Wilson" <daron(a)wilson.org> > >>> To: "'AMSAT BB'" <amsat-bb(a)amsat.org> > >>> Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Members Please Read > >>> Message-ID: <00b501d658bd$26119cc0$7234d640$@org> > >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > >>> > >>> Is there a bulletin board that discusses amateur radio satellites > >>> operations still? Asking for a friend. This is getting old. > >>> > >>> > >>> Daron N7HQR > >>> > >> _______________________________________________ > >>> Sent via AMSAT-BB(a)amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available > >>> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. > >>> Opinions expressed > >>> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views > of > >>> AMSAT-NA. > >>> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite > >>> program! > >>> Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb > >>> > >> > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 12:13:46 -0700 > From: Bruce Perens <bruce(a)perens.com> > To: AMSAT BB <amsat-bb(a)amsat.org> > Subject: [amsat-bb] Why we are having this big unpleasant argument on > your satellite mailing list > Message-ID: > < > CAK2MWOsL+EO6q3QnLjL395uSeLZR8QnkUuD9q3nJ+O4e7Kvytw(a)mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > Most of you are members of AMSAT. IMO the organization has some serious > problems, and as members it is your duty to steer the organization with > your votes. That means that you should remain aware of what is going on and > you should make an informed vote. The satellite discussions go on, mostly > uninterrupted, all year. A short break for politics is not unreasonable, > and acrimonious discussion is to be expected when we take that break. > > Organisations are run by people who would not be doing the work if they did > not have strong emotions about it. And they all have their own failings. > Unfortunately, volunteer non-profit directors (and many public ones in big > corporations) never learn a critical skill of democracy: *how to deal > properly with opposition. *That is the root of what we are arguing about > now. Opposition are not the enemy! Yet, they are clearly being treated as > such. They are simply people who would reform the organization or take it > in a different direction from the incumbents. > > In this case, Michelle and Patrick, before they were elected, were the > loyal opposition - dedicated to a better organization, and deeply troubled > by the decisions and conduct of the incumbent board. The incumbent's > response was not to work with the opposition, but to hunker down and use > lawyers. To the incumbent's great distress, the very same people got sent > to the board by the membership! Leading to more lawyers. IMO the incumbents > should have read this as a signal from the membership, rather than doubling > down their resistance. > > The sad reality is that the newly-elected directors have never been allowed > to function as directors. You should be concerned, since they are the > people whom you elected to represent you. The main means used to disable > your elected representatives has been refusal by the incumbents to hold > board meetings. This refusal is almost total, with exactly *one* meeting > being held after the organization's annual convention. > > The second means used to disenfranchise the newly-elected directors was > that the incumbents withheld information which a director would generally > be expected to have access to. As it happened, this information was at > least in part discussion of those very same people, and contracting of > legal counsel in a process against them. > > Every board has the right to legal counsel. But it's expensive, and must be > used wisely. This was not a wise use. A wise use would have been to engage > the opposition rather than to hunker down. > > One very large cause of all of this is that the same people have been > running AMSAT for a very long time, and it becomes an echo chamber after a > while - the us-vs-them mentality of the board vs. the opposition - but > really the board vs. everyone else - becomes self-reinforcing. > > This is obviously wrong for the organization. The solution is simple, and > every organization needs it: *regular turn-over of the people in the > organization's leadership. *Not the stratification that we currently have. > > You can fix this by electing more new blood to the board. > > Thanks > > Bruce > > -- > Bruce Perens - CEO at stealth startup. I'll tell you what it is eventually > :-) > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 15:06:31 -0400 > From: Efrem Acosta <W2CZ(a)optonline.net> > To: amsat-bb(a)amsat.org > Subject: [amsat-bb] A question > Message-ID: <F1920021-98F0-4650-B305-74A7DB72521E(a)optonline.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Is it true all posts now on this board are being held for approval by a > moderator? > > > > 73 De W2CZ > Sent from my iPhone > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 12:45:19 -0700 > From: Bruce Perens <bruce(a)perens.com> > To: David Swanson <dave(a)druidnetworks.com> > Cc: AMSAT BB <amsat-bb(a)amsat.org> > Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] AMSAT Member Mailing list > Message-ID: > <CAK2MWOv-v8yj5NwO7XKz= > nwxb+p1u-7FUF+fTJUKuNvQ7BPP7g(a)mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > David, > > My tweet was NOT deleted, and is still on twitter at > https://twitter.com/BrucePerens/status/1154844208458416128 > As stated repeatedly, both by myself and Michelle, I did not handle the > mailing list, she did. Which was 100% her right as a candidate. > > Thanks > > Bruce > > On Mon, Jul 13, 2020 at 11:26 AM David Swanson via AMSAT-BB < > amsat-bb(a)amsat.org> wrote: > > > It's always fun to remind folks tripping over their own feat lying that > the > > internet is forever. From a Bruce Perens Tweet on July 13, 2020: > > > > "Please see my letter on the web, or the paper copy I've mailed to > everyone > > one of you". > > > > Of course the original tweet was deleted, but the wayback machine never > > forgets. Don't Believe me? http://druidnetworks.com/2020-07-13.png > > > > If you still think the membership list wasn't compromised, I just heard > > Director Thompson will be auctioning off their ocean front property in > > Arizona to all the members this year to raise funds for their microwave, > > digital only, strictly open source crowd funded, vegan, social justice > > aware cubesat launch to Proxima Centauri. Of course this launch will only > > come after 10 years of ground station development, but fueled with enough > > hopes, dreams and promises it will become a reality! > > > > For the rest of us who actually want to keep amateur radio in (real) > space > > and are disgusted at the violations of privacy that occured by 3rd > parties > > working to get Director Thompson and Director Stoddard elected, well, you > > should know what to do. > > > > -Dave, KG5CCI > > > > On Mon, Jul 13, 2020 at 9:24 AM Michelle Thompson < > > mountain.michelle(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > No database went anywhere except to candidates. This is allowed in the > > > bylaws. > > > > > > Then, an automated bulk mail printing server was used. I recommended > the > > > company to Brennan Price for this year's mailing. Good service, > > > inexpensive. > > > > > > Return addresses don't magically transfer information. > > > > > > -Michelle W5NYV > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Jul 13, 2020, 04:32 David Swanson <dave(a)druidnetworks.com> > > wrote: > > > > > >> Spin Spin Spin. The simple truth here is Director Thompson took the > > AMSAT > > >> member database, and handed it over to a 3rd party competing entity > for > > the > > >> purpose of solicitation. I know I did not give ORI my home address, > yet > > ORI > > >> sent me a letter. This was a violation of my privacy, and for AMSAT > > >> members living in the EU, this was a violation of the law. Any attempt > > to > > >> explain this away is just more lies and deceit from Director Thompson > > about > > >> the shady practices they have engaged in over the past few years. As I > > keep > > >> saying, this isn't a one time thing, this is a pattern of > > >> reprehensible behavior that is unbecoming of an elected position and > > this > > >> community. Director Thompson and Director Stoddard should resign. > > >> > > >> -Dave, KG5CCI > > >> > > >> On Mon, Jul 13, 2020 at 5:33 AM Michelle Thompson via AMSAT-BB < > > >> amsat-bb(a)amsat.org> wrote: > > >> > > >>> Yes, I can. > > >>> > > >>> That part of Clayton's letter is wrong and has been repeatedly > > clarified > > >>> before. Including at the 2019 annual board meeting, where Tom Clark > > asked > > >>> me about it, as part of the record. > > >>> > > >>> Clayton Coleman was secretary in 2019. > > >>> > > >>> He ran the election. > > >>> > > >>> He decided that candidate statements were limited in length to 350 > > words, > > >>> would be subject to editorial control by AMSAT, and could not include > > >>> links. These new rules were given to us right before the 4th of July > > >>> holiday with a deadline of the 7th. > > >>> > > >>> This is different than any election before, where statements went > > >>> directly > > >>> to the printer from the candidate, were not limited in length, and no > > one > > >>> from AMSAT leadership (who might be running for reelection > themselves) > > >>> had > > >>> any control over the content of their challengers' statements. > > >>> > > >>> We got these rules right before ballots went out. We (four > challengers) > > >>> already had normal-sized statements on the web and they had been up > six > > >>> weeks at that point. Those were the ones we wanted to use, and link > to. > > >>> > > >>> We knew that as candidates, we had the right to request the mailing > > list, > > >>> and send our own statements, independent of the ballot. > > >>> > > >>> I requested the address list and got the DBASE4 export. > > >>> > > >>> Bruce Perens had already written a letter of support and distributed > it > > >>> widely on the web. It introduced us and included our four full bios > and > > >>> statements. > > >>> > > >>> I asked Bruce if we could use his letter in the mailing. He said yes. > > >>> Since > > >>> he was President of Open Research Institute at the time, he wanted > the > > >>> return address to not be his private home address, but a business > > >>> address. > > >>> That was ORI's address. He was the author of the endorsement, so I > used > > >>> his > > >>> preferred return address. > > >>> > > >>> I converted the DBASE4 to a more useful format, fixed the 50 or so > > >>> undeliverable addresses, and found an inexpensive printer. Then I > sent > > >>> the > > >>> letter from Bruce to the printer, with the bios and statements. > > >>> > > >>> That turned out to be a good thing. Bios and statements were not > > included > > >>> with the ballots mailed out, at all. > > >>> > > >>> If we had not sent the letter, then name recognition would be the > > primary > > >>> factor. We were running against well-known people. > > >>> > > >>> We complained about this. It was unusual departure from the past and > > >>> seemed > > >>> set up to let leadership benefit from being incumbents. > > >>> > > >>> The original proposal from Clayton was for an electronic only ballot. > > >>> Patrick said that the bylaws were a bit clunky here and it did need > to > > be > > >>> mailed out on paper. Paper was required. > > >>> > > >>> This is a big reason why I made a motion at our one board meeting, > in > > >>> March, for a bylaws committee. > > >>> > > >>> This bylaw isn't hard to fix. There's lots of examples out there of > > >>> organizations doing electronic voting with working published bylaws. > > >>> > > >>> Bruce made it very clear, when the incumbents stirred up the pot > about > > >>> the > > >>> return address, that it was an endorsement from him, this was > commonly > > >>> done > > >>> in political campaigns, and it would be grossly improper for me to > use > > >>> AMSATs return address because that would make it look like Bruce was > > >>> speaking for or was from AMSAT. That was not going to happen. *That* > > >>> would > > >>> be improper. > > >>> > > >>> No one candidate wanted their personal address used as a return > > address. > > >>> We > > >>> were mailing this as a slate and splitting the cost. We didn't have > > time > > >>> or > > >>> funds to make an organization or rent a box for one letter on short > > >>> notice. > > >>> The printer required a real return address. > > >>> > > >>> No one had the address list except the candidates. Namely me because > I > > >>> contracted the printer and handled the DBASE4 address conversion. > That > > >>> is a > > >>> neat story in and of itself,, for another time. > > >>> > > >>> Bruce only sent the text to me and chipped in some money for postage. > > >>> > > >>> The printing was automated in Van Nuys, CA. > > >>> > > >>> All of this is known to Clayton Coleman and his friends on the board > > that > > >>> signed the statement from this week. It has been explained by Bruce > > >>> publicly, and by me several times on social media. Tom Clark brought > it > > >>> up > > >>> at the 2019 annual board meeting because of the return address > > >>> pot-stirring. I explained it there too. Like I said, it's on the > > record. > > >>> > > >>> I think insinuating the addresses were mishandled is a deliberate > > >>> twisting > > >>> of honest efforts to scramble to get uncensored candidate statements > > out > > >>> to > > >>> voters on short notice. We just didn't have a lot of time, and Bruce > > was > > >>> very generous in writing a cover letter. > > >>> > > >>> Again, candidates are allowed the use of the mailing lists for > election > > >>> purposes. > > >>> > > >>> So, no, there was no breach. Clayton knows all this. > > >>> > > >>> Saying it the way he did is a cheap shot at me, Patrick, Bruce > Perens, > > >>> and > > >>> ORI. > > >>> > > >>> -Michelle W5NYV > > >>> > > >>> On Sun, Jul 12, 2020, 19:11 Kevin via AMSAT-BB <amsat-bb(a)amsat.org> > > >>> wrote: > > >>> > > >>> > Hello All, > > >>> > > > >>> > In a previous email to the BB I posted the link to the letter we > > all > > >>> > received as members. > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > https://www.amsat.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/20200710_AMSAT_L… > > >>> > > > >>> > I was re-reading it and something caught my eye that I had missed > > >>> before. > > >>> > > > >>> > "AMSAT did not provide a copy of its membership mailing addresses > to > > >>> > Open Research Institute." > > >>> > > > >>> > Just how was our mailing list compromised? This seems like a > > >>> serious > > >>> > breech of security, was this a hack? was any other information > lost? > > >>> > was it ever found out how it happened? is our mailing list as they > > say > > >>> > "out in the wind"? > > >>> > > > >>> > Michelle could you possibly check from the ORI side and backtrack > how > > >>> > ORI came into possession of the AMSAT mailing list, was it > something > > >>> > that was procured online? > > >>> > > > >>> > AMSAT needs to follow up on this privacy issue and report back what > > it > > >>> > found and any steps that were taken to prevent this from happening > in > > >>> > the future. > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > I look forward to an answer > > >>> > > > >>> > 73 Kevin WA7FWF #19623 > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > _______________________________________________ > > >>> > Sent via AMSAT-BB(a)amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum > > available > > >>> > to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. > > >>> Opinions > > >>> > expressed > > >>> > are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official > views > > >>> of > > >>> > AMSAT-NA. > > >>> > Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite > > >>> program! > > >>> > Subscription settings: > > https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb > > >>> > > > >>> _______________________________________________ > > >>> Sent via AMSAT-BB(a)amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum > available > > >>> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. > > >>> Opinions expressed > > >>> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views > > of > > >>> AMSAT-NA. > > >>> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite > > >>> program! > > >>> Subscription settings: > https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb > > >>> > > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > Sent via AMSAT-BB(a)amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available > > to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. > Opinions > > expressed > > are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of > > AMSAT-NA. > > Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite > program! > > Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb > > > > > -- > Bruce Perens - CEO at stealth startup. I'll tell you what it is eventually > :-) > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2020 03:04:44 +0700 > From: Kenneth P Alexander <ve3hls(a)gmail.com> > To: Steve Kristoff <skristof(a)etczone.com> > Cc: AMSAT -BB <amsat-bb(a)amsat.org> > Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] AMSAT Member Mailing list > Message-ID: > <CAPOM0d= > Pt9kPtHNmgxtfZdM4q2JxxqkbMFNM1pAxdj1cZFLFog(a)mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > It's not that simple Brian. If you follow that line of thinking then > people by the thousands would be renouncing their American citizenship > because of the current shitshow in Washington, but I haven't heard of that > happening. > > The best thing to do is stay in the game, sort through the hysteria and > misinformation and exercise your right to vote when the time comes. Then > you can move Amsat back to becoming an organization you'll want to remain a > part of. > > Ok, back to sleep for me! > > 73, > > Ken Alexander, VE3HLS > So Phisai, Thailand > Blog: bueng-ken.com > > > On Tue, Jul 14, 2020 at 2:52 AM Steve Kristoff via AMSAT-BB < > amsat-bb(a)amsat.org> wrote: > > > > > I worked a satellite just this morning. They are still up there. Just > have > > to step away from the computer and turn on the radio. > > > > Steve Ai9IN > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Brian Karcher via AMSAT-BB (amsat-bb(a)amsat.org) > > Date: 07/13/20 12:10 > > To: amsat-bb(a)amsat.org, amsat-bb-request(a)amsat.org > > Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] AMSAT Member Mailing list > > > > I thought being a member of AMSAT was about keeping amateur radio in > > space, learning about satellites and for some of us working amateur radio > > satellites in space. Since the last election AMSAT seems to be about > > nothing but politics and misinformation. In my opinion AMSAT was a lot > > more fun to be apart of before the last election. All the politics and > > misinformation drives people away from AMSAT and is not good for the > > organization. I have been told in the past by one of the new board > members > > that all of this is necessary for change to happen. I don't see that > AMSAT > > has to go through some fundamental change or movement. I am tired of the > > new AMSAT since the last election. I am seriously considering not > renewing > > my membership and I know plenty of other that are considering the same. > > When will all of this end so we can start enjoying AMSAT again and > working > > satellites? > > > > Brian D. Karcher > > KG5GJT > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Sent via AMSAT-BB(a)amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available > > to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. > Opinions > > expressed > > are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of > > AMSAT-NA. > > Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite > program! > > Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 15:23:41 -0500 > From: David Swanson <dave(a)druidnetworks.com> > To: Bruce Perens <bruce(a)perens.com> > Cc: AMSAT BB <amsat-bb(a)amsat.org> > Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] AMSAT Member Mailing list > Message-ID: > < > CANq+eyV985yF4XZAmiZ0oifyutc+nGosE8RgpC0rZjtuC8h6SA(a)mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > By your own words, it was YOUR letter, in a letter YOU sent. No matter how > many times you try and repeat the same line now - you've already proven > yourself to be a fraud. > > And by the way, people often violate the rules for stupid and unnecassary > reasons. It's very rarely the big lie you get caught in, it's all the > smaller ones you use to cover the big one up. > > -Dave, KG5CCI > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 7 > Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 13:29:50 -0700 > From: Fernando Ramirez <framirezferrer(a)gmail.com> > To: Daniel Velez <djvnet(a)gmail.com> > Cc: AMSAT -BB <amsat-bb(a)amsat.org> > Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] when is the election being discussed? > Message-ID: > < > CAGHXx8jLoX5ADt7jDHfkh-OOBnH3zWFukA8oAHT-0R3Fq9O3Fw(a)mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > If you joined our renewed before July 1st, you will be getting a ballot > after July 15. > > Saludos > Fernando, KF7R > > On Mon, Jul 13, 2020, 1:26 PM Daniel Velez via AMSAT-BB < > amsat-bb(a)amsat.org> > wrote: > > > I joined in June but I haven't seen any ballot info. > > 73 de Dan > > _______________________________________________ > > Sent via AMSAT-BB(a)amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available > > to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. > Opinions > > expressed > > are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of > > AMSAT-NA. > > Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite > program! > > Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 8 > Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 16:33:45 -0400 > From: Arthur Feller <afeller(a)ieee.org> > To: Michelle Thompson <mountain.michelle(a)gmail.com> > Cc: AMSAT BB <amsat-bb(a)amsat.org> > Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] AMSAT-NA, another perspective > Message-ID: <98C0DFD9-D12C-454B-BC39-30133A8CA3FD(a)ieee.org> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > AMSAT Members: > > We?re going around in circles, getting nowhere fast. No resolution in > sight; only repetition, irritation, and turning away new and renewing > members. Not constructive. > > Much as these subjects need to be and should be discussed, may I suggest > taking this thread offline? > > I?m willing to facilitate an offline discussion. > > 73, art?.. > W4ART Arlington VA > LM-113 > > To thrive in life, you need three bones: a wish bone, a back bone, and a > funny bone. > - Reba McEntire > > http://afeller.us <http://afeller.us/> > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 9 > Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 20:35:14 +0000 (UTC) > From: GEO Badger <w3ab(a)yahoo.com> > To: AMSAT BB <amsat-bb(a)amsat.org> > Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] AMSAT-NA, another perspective > Message-ID: <865720374.1065652.1594672514170(a)mail.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > > I believe that all 501(c)(3) orgs must hold at least one BOD meeting per > year or it is in violation of the incorporation rules and the org will risk > losing their tax exempt status. > 3 Annual Requirements Every Nonprofit Should Know > > | > | > | > | | | > > | > > | > | > | | > 3 Annual Requirements Every Nonprofit Should Know > > Congratulations, you?ve received 501(c)(3) status, so now what!? PAPERWORK > AND MEETINGS! And also working for th... > | > > | > > | > > > > ---?? > Ciao baby, catch you on the flip side?? > 73 de W3AB/GEO ???? > > http://www.w3ab.org > > You can say "over", you can say "out", you just can't say "over and out". > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 10 > Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 13:13:20 -0700 > From: Bruce Perens <bruce(a)perens.com> > To: David Swanson <dave(a)druidnetworks.com> > Cc: AMSAT BB <amsat-bb(a)amsat.org> > Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] AMSAT Member Mailing list > Message-ID: > <CAK2MWOvcy8V-UUYKEi9QYKuB5p= > Bd-rVVg1KH5DReZ91rwCHcA(a)mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > OK, Dave, you were not born yesterday :-) As I have said, I never touched > the mailing list, and never had to. I contributed $500 for postage, the > rest was provided by the candidates. But if I *had* touched the mailing > list, what nefarious things would I have done with it? You are mostly all > listed on QRZ, etc. Am I the guy sending you those mails about how Ed > McMahon will hand you the million-dollar check from Publishers Clearing > House? > > What I am getting at here is that people don't violate rules for really > stupid and unnecessary reasons. There was a simple way to send the letter > within the rules, and we did it. > > Thanks > > Bruce > > On Mon, Jul 13, 2020, 12:55 PM David Swanson <dave(a)druidnetworks.com> > wrote: > > > My apologies on the Twitter claim - when I tried loading it from source > > nothing was displaying pre January 28th, 2020 - the day of your 'I am > > signing off of social networking' declaration. (How'd that go btw?) I > only > > assumed you had deleted your tweets. > > > > As to your never ending story changing about the mailing list, I was born > > at night, but it wasn't last night. Go try your story on another mark. > > > > -Dave, KG5CCI > > > > On Mon, Jul 13, 2020 at 2:45 PM Bruce Perens <bruce(a)perens.com> wrote: > > > >> David, > >> > >> My tweet was NOT deleted, and is still on twitter at > >> https://twitter.com/BrucePerens/status/1154844208458416128 > >> As stated repeatedly, both by myself and Michelle, I did not handle the > >> mailing list, she did. Which was 100% her right as a candidate. > >> > >> Thanks > >> > >> Bruce > >> > >> On Mon, Jul 13, 2020 at 11:26 AM David Swanson via AMSAT-BB < > >> amsat-bb(a)amsat.org> wrote: > >> > >>> It's always fun to remind folks tripping over their own feat lying that > >>> the > >>> internet is forever. From a Bruce Perens Tweet on July 13, 2020: > >>> > >>> "Please see my letter on the web, or the paper copy I've mailed to > >>> everyone > >>> one of you". > >>> > >>> Of course the original tweet was deleted, but the wayback machine never > >>> forgets. Don't Believe me? http://druidnetworks.com/2020-07-13.png > >>> > >>> If you still think the membership list wasn't compromised, I just heard > >>> Director Thompson will be auctioning off their ocean front property in > >>> Arizona to all the members this year to raise funds for their > microwave, > >>> digital only, strictly open source crowd funded, vegan, social justice > >>> aware cubesat launch to Proxima Centauri. Of course this launch will > only > >>> come after 10 years of ground station development, but fueled with > enough > >>> hopes, dreams and promises it will become a reality! > >>> > >>> For the rest of us who actually want to keep amateur radio in (real) > >>> space > >>> and are disgusted at the violations of privacy that occured by 3rd > >>> parties > >>> working to get Director Thompson and Director Stoddard elected, well, > you > >>> should know what to do. > >>> > >>> -Dave, KG5CCI > >>> > >>> On Mon, Jul 13, 2020 at 9:24 AM Michelle Thompson < > >>> mountain.michelle(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >>> > >>> > No database went anywhere except to candidates. This is allowed in > the > >>> > bylaws. > >>> > > >>> > Then, an automated bulk mail printing server was used. I recommended > >>> the > >>> > company to Brennan Price for this year's mailing. Good service, > >>> > inexpensive. > >>> > > >>> > Return addresses don't magically transfer information. > >>> > > >>> > -Michelle W5NYV > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > On Mon, Jul 13, 2020, 04:32 David Swanson <dave(a)druidnetworks.com> > >>> wrote: > >>> > > >>> >> Spin Spin Spin. The simple truth here is Director Thompson took the > >>> AMSAT > >>> >> member database, and handed it over to a 3rd party competing entity > >>> for the > >>> >> purpose of solicitation. I know I did not give ORI my home address, > >>> yet ORI > >>> >> sent me a letter. This was a violation of my privacy, and for AMSAT > >>> >> members living in the EU, this was a violation of the law. Any > >>> attempt to > >>> >> explain this away is just more lies and deceit from Director > Thompson > >>> about > >>> >> the shady practices they have engaged in over the past few years. As > >>> I keep > >>> >> saying, this isn't a one time thing, this is a pattern of > >>> >> reprehensible behavior that is unbecoming of an elected position and > >>> this > >>> >> community. Director Thompson and Director Stoddard should resign. > >>> >> > >>> >> -Dave, KG5CCI > >>> >> > >>> >> On Mon, Jul 13, 2020 at 5:33 AM Michelle Thompson via AMSAT-BB < > >>> >> amsat-bb(a)amsat.org> wrote: > >>> >> > >>> >>> Yes, I can. > >>> >>> > >>> >>> That part of Clayton's letter is wrong and has been repeatedly > >>> clarified > >>> >>> before. Including at the 2019 annual board meeting, where Tom Clark > >>> asked > >>> >>> me about it, as part of the record. > >>> >>> > >>> >>> Clayton Coleman was secretary in 2019. > >>> >>> > >>> >>> He ran the election. > >>> >>> > >>> >>> He decided that candidate statements were limited in length to 350 > >>> words, > >>> >>> would be subject to editorial control by AMSAT, and could not > include > >>> >>> links. These new rules were given to us right before the 4th of > July > >>> >>> holiday with a deadline of the 7th. > >>> >>> > >>> >>> This is different than any election before, where statements went > >>> >>> directly > >>> >>> to the printer from the candidate, were not limited in length, and > >>> no one > >>> >>> from AMSAT leadership (who might be running for reelection > >>> themselves) > >>> >>> had > >>> >>> any control over the content of their challengers' statements. > >>> >>> > >>> >>> We got these rules right before ballots went out. We (four > >>> challengers) > >>> >>> already had normal-sized statements on the web and they had been up > >>> six > >>> >>> weeks at that point. Those were the ones we wanted to use, and link > >>> to. > >>> >>> > >>> >>> We knew that as candidates, we had the right to request the mailing > >>> list, > >>> >>> and send our own statements, independent of the ballot. > >>> >>> > >>> >>> I requested the address list and got the DBASE4 export. > >>> >>> > >>> >>> Bruce Perens had already written a letter of support and > distributed > >>> it > >>> >>> widely on the web. It introduced us and included our four full bios > >>> and > >>> >>> statements. > >>> >>> > >>> >>> I asked Bruce if we could use his letter in the mailing. He said > yes. > >>> >>> Since > >>> >>> he was President of Open Research Institute at the time, he wanted > >>> the > >>> >>> return address to not be his private home address, but a business > >>> >>> address. > >>> >>> That was ORI's address. He was the author of the endorsement, so I > >>> used > >>> >>> his > >>> >>> preferred return address. > >>> >>> > >>> >>> I converted the DBASE4 to a more useful format, fixed the 50 or so > >>> >>> undeliverable addresses, and found an inexpensive printer. Then I > >>> sent > >>> >>> the > >>> >>> letter from Bruce to the printer, with the bios and statements. > >>> >>> > >>> >>> That turned out to be a good thing. Bios and statements were not > >>> included > >>> >>> with the ballots mailed out, at all. > >>> >>> > >>> >>> If we had not sent the letter, then name recognition would be the > >>> primary > >>> >>> factor. We were running against well-known people. > >>> >>> > >>> >>> We complained about this. It was unusual departure from the past > and > >>> >>> seemed > >>> >>> set up to let leadership benefit from being incumbents. > >>> >>> > >>> >>> The original proposal from Clayton was for an electronic only > ballot. > >>> >>> Patrick said that the bylaws were a bit clunky here and it did need > >>> to be > >>> >>> mailed out on paper. Paper was required. > >>> >>> > >>> >>> This is a big reason why I made a motion at our one board meeting, > >>> in > >>> >>> March, for a bylaws committee. > >>> >>> > >>> >>> This bylaw isn't hard to fix. There's lots of examples out there of > >>> >>> organizations doing electronic voting with working published > bylaws. > >>> >>> > >>> >>> Bruce made it very clear, when the incumbents stirred up the pot > >>> about > >>> >>> the > >>> >>> return address, that it was an endorsement from him, this was > >>> commonly > >>> >>> done > >>> >>> in political campaigns, and it would be grossly improper for me to > >>> use > >>> >>> AMSATs return address because that would make it look like Bruce > was > >>> >>> speaking for or was from AMSAT. That was not going to happen. > *That* > >>> >>> would > >>> >>> be improper. > >>> >>> > >>> >>> No one candidate wanted their personal address used as a return > >>> address. > >>> >>> We > >>> >>> were mailing this as a slate and splitting the cost. We didn't have > >>> time > >>> >>> or > >>> >>> funds to make an organization or rent a box for one letter on short > >>> >>> notice. > >>> >>> The printer required a real return address. > >>> >>> > >>> >>> No one had the address list except the candidates. Namely me > because > >>> I > >>> >>> contracted the printer and handled the DBASE4 address conversion. > >>> That > >>> >>> is a > >>> >>> neat story in and of itself,, for another time. > >>> >>> > >>> >>> Bruce only sent the text to me and chipped in some money for > postage. > >>> >>> > >>> >>> The printing was automated in Van Nuys, CA. > >>> >>> > >>> >>> All of this is known to Clayton Coleman and his friends on the > board > >>> that > >>> >>> signed the statement from this week. It has been explained by Bruce > >>> >>> publicly, and by me several times on social media. Tom Clark > brought > >>> it > >>> >>> up > >>> >>> at the 2019 annual board meeting because of the return address > >>> >>> pot-stirring. I explained it there too. Like I said, it's on the > >>> record. > >>> >>> > >>> >>> I think insinuating the addresses were mishandled is a deliberate > >>> >>> twisting > >>> >>> of honest efforts to scramble to get uncensored candidate > statements > >>> out > >>> >>> to > >>> >>> voters on short notice. We just didn't have a lot of time, and > Bruce > >>> was > >>> >>> very generous in writing a cover letter. > >>> >>> > >>> >>> Again, candidates are allowed the use of the mailing lists for > >>> election > >>> >>> purposes. > >>> >>> > >>> >>> So, no, there was no breach. Clayton knows all this. > >>> >>> > >>> >>> Saying it the way he did is a cheap shot at me, Patrick, Bruce > >>> Perens, > >>> >>> and > >>> >>> ORI. > >>> >>> > >>> >>> -Michelle W5NYV > >>> >>> > >>> >>> On Sun, Jul 12, 2020, 19:11 Kevin via AMSAT-BB <amsat-bb(a)amsat.org > > > >>> >>> wrote: > >>> >>> > >>> >>> > Hello All, > >>> >>> > > >>> >>> > In a previous email to the BB I posted the link to the letter > >>> we all > >>> >>> > received as members. > >>> >>> > > >>> >>> > > >>> >>> > > >>> >>> > >>> > https://www.amsat.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/20200710_AMSAT_L… > >>> >>> > > >>> >>> > I was re-reading it and something caught my eye that I had missed > >>> >>> before. > >>> >>> > > >>> >>> > "AMSAT did not provide a copy of its membership mailing addresses > >>> to > >>> >>> > Open Research Institute." > >>> >>> > > >>> >>> > Just how was our mailing list compromised? This seems like a > >>> >>> serious > >>> >>> > breech of security, was this a hack? was any other information > >>> lost? > >>> >>> > was it ever found out how it happened? is our mailing list as > they > >>> say > >>> >>> > "out in the wind"? > >>> >>> > > >>> >>> > Michelle could you possibly check from the ORI side and backtrack > >>> how > >>> >>> > ORI came into possession of the AMSAT mailing list, was it > >>> something > >>> >>> > that was procured online? > >>> >>> > > >>> >>> > AMSAT needs to follow up on this privacy issue and report back > >>> what it > >>> >>> > found and any steps that were taken to prevent this from > happening > >>> in > >>> >>> > the future. > >>> >>> > > >>> >>> > > >>> >>> > I look forward to an answer > >>> >>> > > >>> >>> > 73 Kevin WA7FWF #19623 > >>> >>> > > >>> >>> > > >>> >>> > > >>> >>> > > >>> >>> > > >>> >>> > > >>> >>> > _______________________________________________ > >>> >>> > Sent via AMSAT-BB(a)amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum > >>> available > >>> >>> > to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. > >>> >>> Opinions > >>> >>> > expressed > >>> >>> > are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official > >>> views > >>> >>> of > >>> >>> > AMSAT-NA. > >>> >>> > Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite > >>> >>> program! > >>> >>> > Subscription settings: > >>> https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb > >>> >>> > > >>> >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> >>> Sent via AMSAT-BB(a)amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum > >>> available > >>> >>> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. > >>> >>> Opinions expressed > >>> >>> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official > >>> views of > >>> >>> AMSAT-NA. > >>> >>> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite > >>> >>> program! > >>> >>> Subscription settings: > >>> https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb > >>> >>> > >>> >> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Sent via AMSAT-BB(a)amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available > >>> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. > >>> Opinions expressed > >>> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views > of > >>> AMSAT-NA. > >>> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite > >>> program! > >>> Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb > >>> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Bruce Perens - CEO at stealth startup. I'll tell you what it is > >> eventually :-) > >> > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Subject: Digest Footer > > _______________________________________________ > Sent via amsat-bb(a)amsat.org. > AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons > worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed > are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of > AMSAT-NA. > Not an AMSAT member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! > https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb > > ------------------------------ > > End of AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol 15, Issue 247 > ***************************************** >

1 0

Trim your messages
by Daniel Schultz 14 Jul '20

14 Jul '20

Would you all please trim the messages that you are replying too? There is no need to quote more lines of text back to the -bb then you are writing yourself. Better yet, don't quote anything at all, we can probably follow the message thread by this point in the discussion. That would go a long way toward raising the signal to noise ratio of the present discussion. Dan N8FGV

1 0

Re: [amsat-bb] Brief summary of the "unauthorized expenses" claim
by Bruce Perens 14 Jul '20

14 Jul '20

I don't actually understand why we are discussing whether they were authorized. That is, at most, of tertiary importance. Of primary importance would be: was this a good decision, and a good use of the organization's funds, wherever they came from? I also don't consider it relevant whether the funds were membership dues, donations, or a grant. Although most grants are earmarked for a purpose, so that is less likely. Let's just talk about "was this smart, was it responsible, is it the kind of decision I'd like to see from the board in the future?" Thanks Bruce On Mon, Jul 13, 2020, 6:24 PM Bruce Perens <bruce(a)perens.com> wrote: > I don't actually understand why we are discussing whether they were > authorized. That is, at most, of tertiary importance. Of primary importance > would be: was this a good decision, and a good use of the organization's > funds, wherever they came from? > > I also don't consider it relevant whether the funds were membership dues, > donations, or a grant. Although most grants are earmarked for a purpose, so > that is less likely. > > Let's just talk about "was this smart, was it responsible, is it the kind > of decision I'd like to see from the board in the future?" > > Thanks > > Bruce > > On Mon, Jul 13, 2020, 6:17 PM Rich Gopstein via AMSAT-BB < > amsat-bb(a)amsat.org> wrote: > >> Let me clarify: >> >> I said "the board said the expenses were authorized." >> >> I didn't say "the board directly authorized the expenses" >> >> The implication is that the officers authorized the expenses and the board >> was OK with that. And since it's up to the board to decide what the >> officers can or can't authorize, the fact that they said that the expenses >> were authorized should be sufficient. >> >> Rich >> >> >> On Mon, Jul 13, 2020 at 5:46 PM Steve Kristoff via AMSAT-BB < >> amsat-bb(a)amsat.org> wrote: >> >> > >> > But even in your own evaluation there are contradictions. >> > >> > Quote from your email: "If an expense went to the board for approval, it >> > would show up in the >> > minutes of that board meeting." >> > >> > Further down your email: "- In this case, the members of the AMSAT board >> > at the time said that the >> > expenses were authorized." >> > >> > >> > Then, by your own evaluation of the by-laws, if the members of the board >> > authorized the expenditures (second quote), shouldn't that authorization >> > show up in the minutes of the board meeting? (first quote) >> > >> > Steve AI9IN >> > >> > >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> > From: Rich Gopstein via AMSAT-BB (amsat-bb(a)amsat.org) >> > Date: 07/13/20 15:25 >> > To: Amsat - BBs (AMSAT-BB(a)amsat.org) >> > Subject: [amsat-bb] Brief summary of the "unauthorized expenses" claim >> > >> > First: I'm not a lawyer. These are my observations only. >> > >> > This is what I learned over the past few days while researching the >> claim >> > that the AMSAT money spent on legal services related to the new >> directors >> > was "unauthorized". >> > >> > - I read the AMSAT bylaws. They are very readable, BTW - and not >> long. >> > - The bylaws say that expenses can be authorized either by the board >> > itself or by the officers of AMSAT if the board delegates that >> authority. >> > - If an expense went to the board for approval, it would show up in >> the >> > minutes of that board meeting. >> > - If an expense were authorized by an officer, then it wouldn't show >> up >> > in the minutes of a board meeting. >> > - The claim that the expenses were unauthorized was based on the >> > observation that there was no record in the board meeting minutes of >> the >> > authorization. However, as mentioned above, not everything has to go >> to >> > the board for approval. And that decision is up to the board itself. >> > - In this case, the members of the AMSAT board at the time said that >> the >> > expenses were authorized. >> > - Since the board has the authority to authorize expenditures >> (directly >> > or indirectly) and they say the expenses were authorized, that >> indicates >> > to >> > me that the expenses were authorized. >> > >> > Note: Michelle and Patrick were not members of the board when this >> > happened. They were analyzing this after the fact. >> > >> > Rich >> > KD2CQ >> > AMSAT Life Member >> > _______________________________________________ >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Sent via AMSAT-BB(a)amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available >> > to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. >> Opinions >> > expressed >> > are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of >> > AMSAT-NA. >> > Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite >> program! >> > Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> Sent via AMSAT-BB(a)amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available >> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. >> Opinions expressed >> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of >> AMSAT-NA. >> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! >> Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb >> >

1 0

Re: [amsat-bb] AMSAT Member Mailing list
by Bruce Perens 14 Jul '20

14 Jul '20

The candidates are allowed the use of the mailing list for their campaign. If you read the bylaws, they make it very clear. One of the candidates did all of the handling of the mailing list. Incidentally, the board was not aware that they had to give the mailing list to the candidates. This was something the candidates had to tell them, after I read the bylaws. Had the board run things the way they desired, only a board controlled 200 word statement would have reached you from the candidates, except for the incumbents, who have had free use of AMSAT's official publications to carry their opinions. In a more perfect world, the board would have known their own bylaws, or at least the secretary who was running the election would have read them. But in a more perfect world, two people were trying to reform the organization with not face quite this uphill a battle. Thanks Bruce On Sun, Jul 12, 2020, 9:00 PM Kevin <wa7fwf(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Well how did the bulk mailing company get the AMSAT member mailing list if > AMSAT did not provide it? > > Kevin > > > On 7/12/2020 8:32 PM, Bruce Perens wrote: > > The mailing list was never compromised. But my HOME address, under "Open > Research Institute" was used as the return address. This was a mistake and > I didn't ask for it. I was, however, the author of the mailer, in which I > introduced the candidates. The mailing was done by a bulk Mail company and > did not involve me. I got one returned letter, informed someone responsible > who had a right to see that address, and promptly forgot it. > > Thanks > > Bruce > > On Sun, Jul 12, 2020, 7:11 PM Kevin via AMSAT-BB <amsat-bb(a)amsat.org> > wrote: > >> Hello All, >> >> In a previous email to the BB I posted the link to the letter we all >> received as members. >> >> >> https://www.amsat.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/20200710_AMSAT_L… >> >> I was re-reading it and something caught my eye that I had missed before. >> >> "AMSAT did not provide a copy of its membership mailing addresses to >> Open Research Institute." >> >> Just how was our mailing list compromised? This seems like a serious >> breech of security, was this a hack? was any other information lost? >> was it ever found out how it happened? is our mailing list as they say >> "out in the wind"? >> >> Michelle could you possibly check from the ORI side and backtrack how >> ORI came into possession of the AMSAT mailing list, was it something >> that was procured online? >> >> AMSAT needs to follow up on this privacy issue and report back what it >> found and any steps that were taken to prevent this from happening in >> the future. >> >> >> I look forward to an answer >> >> 73 Kevin WA7FWF #19623 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Sent via AMSAT-BB(a)amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available >> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. >> Opinions expressed >> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of >> AMSAT-NA. >> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! >> Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb >> > >

3 8

Publications and mailing lists
by Brennan Price 14 Jul '20

14 Jul '20

I generally don't intend to engage in the ongoing discussion s beyond an announcement on process once the ballots are mailed (which they will be, tomorrow or Wednesday, on or before the date specified in the bylaws), but I do want to address what the Bylaws say about the organization's publications and mailing lists, as I think (perhaps naïvely) that would be helpful. Article III Section 3 provides, in relevant part: <<Duly nominated and eligible candidates shall be afforded equal opportunity to circulate statements of their qualifications and positions to the Members through the corporation’s publications and shall have use of the corporation’s mailing lists for election-related purposes at no cost to the corporation.>> The production and publication schedule of the AMSAT Journal does not render it a suitable vehicle for candidate statements given the bylaws-mandated nomination and election timing. The absence of campaign statements from the Journal is entirely consistent with the Bylaws: no opportunity for any candidate is inherently equal opportunity for all candidates. Traditionally, the organization has used the ballot mailing itself the relevant publication, and this is the approach that will be taken this year. The "equal opportunity" requirement and paper format (not to mention common practice across multiple organization's) necessitates a target word count, balanced to the extent possible against letting candidates have their say. All candidates met or came close to meeting the target I suggested (350 words), with the most long-winded exceeding by 14 words according to the Word 2016 word counter. Upon review, I offered the remaining candidates the chance to expand up to 364 words. None of them took the offer. All six statements will accompany the ballot, and none of them required editorial work beyond the correction of a repeated word and an excess space. I thank the candidates for making that part of the job easy. I have construed the mailing list as the postal mailing list, which has been offered to each candidate (and thus far, five of the six have accepted the list). Data protection regulations require the corporation to take reasonable efforts to safeguard personally identifiable information, and candidates accepting the list have agreed to support those efforts by limiting use of the list for the "election-related purposes" specified in the bylaws. Two results follow: 1) There are no election-related purposes once the election ends. Accordingly, candidates have agreed to discard the list after the election. 2) It is common to engage agents for mailing and postage purposes. I will not hyper-officiate any candidate's choice to do so, but candidates have agreed that any agent will have access to the list only for the time necessary to execute the mailing and will be required by the candidate to discard it afterwards. This is a reasonable effort to safeguard in light of the bylaws requirement for candidate access to mailing lists, which establishes an expectation (however infrequently it came to fruition in past) that members may receive election-related postal mail. I think that's enough for now. 73,Brennan Price, N4QXSecretary, AMSAT Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android

1 0

AMSAT Member Mailing list
by Kevin 14 Jul '20

14 Jul '20

Hello All, In a previous email to the BB I posted the link to the letter we all received as members. https://www.amsat.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/20200710_AMSAT_L… I was re-reading it and something caught my eye that I had missed before. "AMSAT did not provide a copy of its membership mailing addresses to Open Research Institute." Just how was our mailing list compromised? This seems like a serious breech of security, was this a hack? was any other information lost? was it ever found out how it happened? is our mailing list as they say "out in the wind"? Michelle could you possibly check from the ORI side and backtrack how ORI came into possession of the AMSAT mailing list, was it something that was procured online? AMSAT needs to follow up on this privacy issue and report back what it found and any steps that were taken to prevent this from happening in the future. I look forward to an answer 73 Kevin WA7FWF #19623

8 13

huskysat-1
by Rosa & Robert Fitzpatrick 14 Jul '20

14 Jul '20

what is the latest status on huskysat-1.thank you bob/kb5sqgGranbury tx

4 3

children
by 73 Bob W7LRD 14 Jul '20

14 Jul '20

When my children were very young they would very occasionally get into fights and conflicts. I would put them both into a small room in the house and tell them, "you're not coming out until you can get along. > 73 Bob W7LRD

3 2

test
by Ted Krempa 14 Jul '20

14 Jul '20

test

1 0