September 2006 - AMSAT-BB - mailman.amsat.org

Two Sats
by sco＠sco-inc.com 11 Sep '06

11 Sep '06

If two sats like Hamsat (or Echo) were in orbit at the same time and could see each other ... Could User#1 uplink to Sat-A and then Sat-A would link to Sat-B (probably on one of the higher microwave bands) then Sat-B would downlink to User#2 and User#2 would uplink to Sat-B and be relayed to Sat-A and down to User#1 ?? If this could be done there would be a much larger footprint and launch costs would be far less expensive, correct? Les W4SCO

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Mode L/S on AO-51 is alive
by Stefan Wagener 11 Sep '06

11 Sep '06

Beautiful!!!!!! What a blast. Using a 2' Dish and downconverter from K5GNA for downlink on 2m with a TS2000X and a 23CM22EZ (vertical polarization) from M2 for uplink, the signal is just beautiful. Nice chat with N5UXT on the last AO-51 pass. L/S mode is viable, is alive and working and that's the fact! If you don't believe it, just listen. 73, Stefan VE4NSA

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5Ghz WiFi
by sco＠sco-inc.com 11 Sep '06

11 Sep '06

QVC is advertising the SMC WMRAG EZ Stream 2.4GHz/5GHz Wireless Multimedia Receiver for $199. If the wifi devices start going to the 5Ghz band how would that affect Eagle in the future? Les W4SCO

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Re: S band, experience from UK
by jules＠g0nzo.co.uk 11 Sep '06

11 Sep '06

All My station is in a built up area in the UK, which I would assume has a level of S band licence exempt traffic that is typical of most areas. I can see 5 video senders on my ATV receiver and a 4 WLAN networks on my PDA with built in antenna. When I listened to AO40, I only had problems below 10 degrees elevation. This represents a small percentage of a pass, that it did not worry me. (I am aware that the orbit of Eagle may not be quite so favourable). Also, AO40 signals WERE rock crushing for me. With a 5ft dish, very non optimal linear feed and pretty average NF, I could hear VK stations as armchair copy in ssb, even at apogee. Often they were still copyable at LOS, unless I was pointing straight at the WLAN. I will try and make some quantive measurements and submit them, but my gut feeling is that S band is still a viable downlink in my location. My 2 penneth worth.... I am not an AMSAT-NA member. Any donations I make go indirectly through my local AMSAT group. So I am not going to get into the politics of this. But... I expect that the decision to drop S-band was not taken lightly. The people who take on these satellite projects, do so at great personal and sometimes financial expense. Given the great commitment that these people make, it seems a little discourteous to moan about not being able to use a small part of our stations. Our S-band capability will still be useable for P3E. Also, by building an S-band station, you have already reaped the greatest reward, which is the experience of doing it, isn't that what Amateur Radio is all about. In all hobbies, it seems that there is so much in-fighting, that people loose sight of the bigger picture. There are people in authority who are out to get us. In this case it is the commercial pressure on our spectrum. The old adage, 'Use it or loose it', is very true here. So if the bit that we are able to use doesn't happen to match the box that we have on our mast, then we must adapt. Who knows, you may learn something on the way. Jules G0NZO

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AO-51 now in L/S
by Andrew Glasbrenner 11 Sep '06

11 Sep '06

AO-51 is now in L/S for the next week. Uplink is 1268.700, downlink 2401.200, FM. If you enjoy L/S please get active this week. The AO-51 Operations Group would like to hear as many users as possible. The level of traffic helps determine how often we run this mode, as well as other modes. 73, Drew KO4MA AMSAT LM 2332

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S band: Too early, as I said
by Robert McGwier 10 Sep '06

10 Sep '06

As I said previous to this note, our analysis and all of this hoopla is released too early. We have not fully prepared for the onslaught and we have only done a <<technical analysis>> that resulted from the assumption that Galileo was going to cause loss of L band. It is not in our political interests frankly for this understanding to be widespread but now that it is, we might as well go ahead and do all of our "worst case scenario" analysis in public. It is my understanding that Argentina and the Netherlands have LOST 2400-2450 for use by terrestrial radio amateurs because of interference from amateur radio operators (primarily BLOODY ATV) to 802.11 services. Amateurs have been told to stop transmitting in those bands. I need much more information. DO NOT SEND YOUR ANECDOTE HERE. Please send to me DIRECTLY your personal, first hand knowledge of loss of 2400-2450 IN YOUR COUNTRY or any other country FOR WHICH YOU CAN PROVIDE DOCUMENTARY EVIDENCE. I have no interest whatsoever in rumor. I need facts. If this phenomenon is widespread, then the use of S band as an uplink is a useless argument to be having and the whining can stop. ALL that was done in San Diego was a technical analysis. No legal or political analysis has been done at all. We are not prepared to say "This is what we are doing". We are prepared to say "This is what the technical folks came up with given the assumption of the loss of L band and the assumption that 9 cm would be politically unacceptable". NOTHING ELSE should be assumed now. But let me repeat (ad infinitum?), I am personally interested in managing the design and building of an instrument that accomplishes the AMSAT vision statement. If I find that we have essentially lost all microwave bands we have in the amateur satellite service that can be used effectively to support the vision statement (given engineering computation and "circuit practicalities"), I will lose interest in managing this whether it be an AMSAT political decision or an international frequency disaster which we have allowed to go unanswered in any substantive way. AMSAT-DL is the perfect vehicle to produce P3 spacecraft with our help where needed. We do not need to duplicate their efforts. DO NOT send your anecdote to this list. Send your FACTS to me, with supporting evidence, so I can summarize what I believe the impact of this to be for the AMSAT BOD. Bob N4HY -- AMSAT VP Engineering. Member: ARRL, AMSAT-DL, TAPR, Packrats, NJQRP/AMQRP, QRP ARCI, QCWA, FRC. ARRL SDR Wrk Grp Chairman "You see, wire telegraph is a kind of a very, very long cat. You pull his tail in New York and his head is meowing in Los Angeles. Do you understand this? And radio operates exactly the same way: you send signals here, they receive them there. The only difference is that there is no cat." - Einstein

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S-Band Not 2.4 but 2.3
by Matt 10 Sep '06

10 Sep '06

Ok granted 2.40 GHz to 2.45 GHz has a high noise floor and will get worse. So this will be a good band for uplinking. I know it's not a satellite allocation but what about a downlink around 2310 ~ 2390? Or maybe 2300 ~ 2302? I also know that some countries have lost access to 2.302 GHz to 2.4 GHz (VK is one) but as a downlink no one is stopping us from listening there. Or must a satellite transmitters be compliant with all international allocations? Or maybe 2300 ~ 2302 would upset to many other users?

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S band downlink on P3E
by Joseph Trombino Jr 10 Sep '06

10 Sep '06

Disappointed to find out that there will not be an S band downlink on Eagle Will there be an S band downlink on the P3E bird??? Sure hate having to fork over more money each time a new satellite goes up because previous up/downlinks are not being used anymore....makes me wish for more mode A LEO birds (grin) 73, Joe W2KJ

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Re: Eagle Satellite Design
by George Henry 10 Sep '06

10 Sep '06

So, how much to rent one of the TSFR spaces? Maybe all of us who still believe in S-Band could pool our funds to fly our own transponder..... fund the mode instead of the bird? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rick Hambly (W2GPS)" <w2gps(a)cnssys.com> To: <amsat-bb(a)amsat.org> Sent: Saturday, September 09, 2006 5:21 AM Subject: [amsat-bb] Eagle Satellite Design <snip> > > c) There are at least two TSFR (This-Space-For-Rent) packages that could > possibly contain other RF or other payloads, conditioned on the > availability > of power, antenna space and compatibility with the primary payloads.

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STS-115 TLE
by jean-claude.aveni 10 Sep '06

10 Sep '06

Hello the gang TLE for STS-115 Atlantis STS-115 1 29391U 06036A 06253.64554025 -.00237466 00000-0 -11855-2 0 67 2 29391 051.6337 107.2487 0019979 239.6919 163.3114 15.81316756 163 From Space Track USAF 73 jc tk5gh -- *Jean-Claude Aveni* Tel portable : *06 80 92 38 79* Courriel prime : jean-claude.aveni(a)wanadoo.fr '' alternate : aveni(a)lma.cnrs-mrs.fr Site web à l'URL : http://astro-notes.org Call radio amateur : TK5GH

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Re: S band or any backup?
by Robert McGwier 10 Sep '06

10 Sep '06

>"David wrote: >It would be good to know that the linear backup plans have not been quietly >filed in the waste paper basket. " The SDX will be subjected to really brutal radiation testing. It does sound sweet to have a transmitter and receiver as linear as the SDX can be. I do not know anyone who is building the fall back piece and while it has not fallen off the table, I don't know who is building it. "Good engineering is important, but planing for the unexpected is vital." Indeed. "Incidentally. It occurs to me that a disadvantage of having one major UV transponder operating 24/7 is that while that concept removes the need for complicated scheduling it will occupy 100kHz or so of the 2m band permanently which may not be totally desirable in a limited 200kHz bandwidth. Presumably with Eagle 2 and 3 under design / construction at the time of launch they will have differnt bands. - Maybe 2390 - 2400 ish Good point. The 7/24 plan does include the digital piece in our plans. And yes, we do NOT have to duplicate U/V on follow on birds to Eagle. If P3E goes well and we see no need for another U/V transponder we can indeed do something different on subsequent Eagles. Enjoying the debate David G0MRF " -- AMSAT VP Engineering. Member: ARRL, AMSAT-DL, TAPR, Packrats, NJQRP/AMQRP, QRP ARCI, QCWA, FRC. ARRL SDR Wrk Grp Chairman "You see, wire telegraph is a kind of a very, very long cat. You pull his tail in New York and his head is meowing in Los Angeles. Do you understand this? And radio operates exactly the same way: you send signals here, they receive them there. The only difference is that there is no cat." - Einstein

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Re: S band downlink on P3E
by k7zt＠cox.net 10 Sep '06

10 Sep '06

Ok, I ran S Band on AO-40 as well; my home, radio shack, and neighborhood are covered with 2.4Gig stuff. The ONLY interference I ever received was in the form of Very short burst (pops) which any noise blanker was extreamly effective at removing. The 5Gig band will be in the same shape as S Band is today. I simply don’t buy into the Interference argument. 73's DE K7ZT, Joe ---- "Félim Doyle M3HIM" <Felim.M3HIM(a)ntlworld.com> wrote: > But if you were a true conspiracy theorist your message would not have made > it this far. Some of mine didn't - and I'm no anarchist > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "David Goncalves" <davegoncalves(a)gmail.com> > To: <amsat-bb(a)amsat.org> > Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2006 4:27 PM > Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: S band downlink on P3E > > > > I love these messages; I really can't get enough of them. They really > > brighten my day. > > If Luc and AMSAT would bind these into a book, I'd buy it. I'd call it > "The > > AMSAT Anthology of Conspiracy". > > > > Luc, keep on doing what you are doing. > > > > Dave W1EUJ > > > > > Disappointed to find out that there will not be an S band downlink on > > > Eagle > > > > > > > > Will there be an S band downlink on the P3E bird??? > > > > > > > > Sure hate having to fork over more money each time a new satellite > goes > > > up > > > > because previous up/downlinks are not being used anymore....makes me > > > wish > > > > for more mode A LEO birds (grin) > > > > > > > > 73, Joe W2KJ > > > > > > Another bad move by AMSAT-NA... I don't know if they look at their > famous > > > survey about their > > > members opinions here? Probably not could be some one will wake up from > > > lethargy at the next > > > symposium and voices opinions about the maintaining of mode S. > > > > > > If AMSAT-NA is building sats in close circle they just have to openly > > > admitted it even if admission > > > is not a very spoken word they can at least give some explanations on > > > their facts who leads them to > > > scrap mode S? > > > > > > Interference? even if they wants to go higher at the time eagle will be > in > > > space the higher > > > frequencies will be as crowded as 2.4 actually. We actually see some > > > decreased in 2.4 ghz apparatus > > > as the public always want the most recent goodies even FRS/GMRS are > moving > > > to 5.2 ghz. > > > > > > Suggestion: At the next AMSAT-NA 2006 Space Symposium it will > appropriate > > > to voices opinions to the > > > BOD asking them to maintain as planned the mode S. > > > > > > Just to pointed out on a 2005 AMSAT-NA Dayton Hamvention Jim Sanford > > > WB4GCS made a presentation on > > > eagle project and he said i quote " S band will be our bread and butter > on > > > the downlink" a > > > prototype of L/S and C/S where planned for the 2005 Symposium at that > > > time. > > > > > > He also mention that the C/C project in on a bleeding edge technology > > > (read experimental) and they > > > where not too sure if they will even be able to make it. > > > > > > Why the C/C band project? he let go this " this will permit some folks > to > > > use it from their > > > balcony" the cat goes out the bag AGAIN the same ECHO mindings are > > > resurecting...The guy with an HT > > > will be able to make it without using a huge antenna! > > > > > > We will never be able to get rid of this obsession and you know now why > > > they want to move up? The > > > guy who live on a balcony is living in an apartment complex where S band > > > in unusable. Here is why > > > the C/C project come up. How many actual sat operator are living in > > > apartments? the majority of > > > some of them? > > > > > > Here is the whole logics behind this mode S scrapping. If you read a bit > > > behind the lines you will > > > see he speak about P3E where mode S will be present and he confirm some > > > collaboration between both > > > teams. He also say some of the Eagle builders are funding their own > > > project. From this since 2005 > > > we can only see the builders behind the C/C project pushing so hard to a > > > point to get the money > > > previously intended for the 2 S mode TX redirected to their C/C project. > > > > > > Who is driving AMSAT-NA an hollow BOD? an hollow president? Or a third > > > builders manipulating wing > > > who blackmail the BOD? > > > > > > None of them? I let the conclusion yours! > > > > > > P.S.To the BOD its not the best way to attract new members or convince > > > those who leave to rejoin! > > > > > > "-" > > > The medium is the message...The content is the audience...;) > > > > > > Luc Leblanc VE2DWE > > > Skype VE2DWE > > > www.qsl.net/ve2dwe > > > Former AMSAT-NA coordonnator and member. > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Sent via AMSAT-BB(a)amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. > > > Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite > program! > > > Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > David Goncalves > > _______________________________________________ > > Sent via AMSAT-BB(a)amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. > > Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! > > Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb > > _______________________________________________ > Sent via AMSAT-BB(a)amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. > Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! > Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb

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IMPORTANT - Symposium Hotel Reservation Information
by Emily Clarke 10 Sep '06

10 Sep '06

As happened in DC if you try to book your room through the central Crowne Plaza reservation system (toll free number) they may tell you the dates are unavailable. If this happens call the hotel directly and be sure to mention the AMS group code. If you still have problems please send me an email with your arrival and departure dates and I will arrange to speak with the hotel manager directly. One thing that isn't available through the website is that we can upgrade to the Executive rooms. The rate for executive rooms increases from $109 per night to $129 per night. 73, Emily --------------------------------- N1DID formerly W0EEC - CM87tm Support Project OSCAR - http://www.projectoscar.net

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The REAL future of S-Band (was "Special AMSAT dinner")
by George Henry 10 Sep '06

10 Sep '06

Actually, I suspect that 3 years from now, we will see 2.4 GHz thinning out, as WiFi users migrate to the new latest-and-greatest products at 5.8 or higher. We all know that the lifespan of your typical computer "widget" is less than 5 years, and usually closer to 3. Already, stores like Best Buy and Circuit City are carrying way more 5.8 cordless phones than 2.4's... and when was the last time you saw a 900 MHz version? It wasn't that long ago that THEY were the cutting edge cordless! The same thing will happen with WiFi: all the new laptops and PDA's will come with the higher frequency cards, and users will be forced to migrate upward. You can take that to the bank! So put S-band on Eagle - I predict that it'll be wide open in 10 years, NOT a sewer. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Bruninga" <bruninga(a)usna.edu> To: <amsat-bb(a)amsat.org> Sent: Friday, September 08, 2006 5:25 PM Subject: [amsat-bb] Special AMSAT dinner Three years from now when we have to suffer from a new round of comlaints about 2.4 GHz QRM interfering with the P3E Sband downlink, we could have a special AMSAT dinner. The main entrée might be crow. <snip>

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Eagle efficiencies
by McGrane 10 Sep '06

10 Sep '06

Greetings I personally prefer lower frequencies for satellite transmitters because of the lower path loss. Now, after viewing the power information on the eaglepedia meeting summary, I believe electrical efficiency is another good reason to support the lower frequencies. >From what I saw (probably estimates), the VHF transmitter will be about 60% efficient while the C band transmitter will be about 30% efficient. I was very happy to see a respectable 20 watts planned for the VHF output and the same for the C band transmitter. Thanks again to the design team. EEck out those watts and hope you have an alternative for power storage. Some bold new idea would be great. Patrick, N2OEQ

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APRS on ISS, PCSAT, and PCSAT2
by Armour, Randy (ITS) 10 Sep '06

10 Sep '06

I will apologize in advance as this question has probably been asked several times already. I am attempting to digi-peat through PCSAT, and PCSAT2 with an Arrow handheld and Kenwood D7A. Having no trouble using APRS on the ISS, I hope to be able to do the same with PCSAT and maybe even get through PCSAT2 before decommission. I can decode packets from PCSAT and PCSAT2, but never get a packet through either system. PCSAT had a 90 degree pass this morning, with no luck. I am suspicious that my packet path is incorrect, or I don't have enough power to reach the receivers. Packet path is ARISS,APRSAT,SGATE,WIDE. I was recently told that only ARISS was needed for PCSAT, PCSAT2, and ISS. Having no luck yet and time growing short for PCSAT2, I am hoping to get a definitive answer from the list. What is the correct packet path? Can I make it with such limited equipment as a handheld beam and 6 watt HT? Thanks in advance, Randy - KI4LMR

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Re: Two Sats
by w7lrd＠comcast.net 10 Sep '06

10 Sep '06

Hello I and a few others "played" with this concept back in the RS etc days. I forget (senior moment) the specific satellites and frequencies involved. I was though a bit complicated. Tracking two satellites (using a Commodore 64) and figuring muliple doppler effects, due to satellite relative speeds. Anyway it was a fun endeavor. With HEO's you could cover the whole planet. 73 Bob W7LRD Seattle -------------- Original message -------------- From: sco(a)sco-inc.com > If two sats like Hamsat (or Echo) were in orbit at the same time and > could see each other ... > > Could User#1 uplink to Sat-A and then Sat-A would link to Sat-B > (probably on one of the higher microwave bands) then Sat-B would > downlink to User#2 and User#2 would uplink to Sat-B and be relayed to > Sat-A and down to User#1 ?? > > If this could be done there would be a much larger footprint and > launch costs would be far less expensive, correct? > > Les W4SCO > > > _______________________________________________ > Sent via AMSAT-BB(a)amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. > Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! > Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb

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Po-28 no Heard
by Vincenzo Mone 10 Sep '06

10 Sep '06

Hi to the list, right now I have a pass of PO-28 but I do no hear any 9600 baud signal. It is a while that I do not hear it any more. Does anybody heard it or can tell me if is it still in good health? Thanks 73 de Enzo IK8OZV EasyLog 5 BetaTester EasyLog PDA BetaTester WinBollet BetaTester D.C.I. CheckPoint Regione Campania Skype: ik8ozv8520 *************************************** ***** GSM +39 338 9749786 ***** ***** SMS +39 338 9749786 ***** ***** FAX +39 328 7244294 ***** *** 2nd e-mail: vimone(a)tin.it *** ***************************************

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Re: The Eagle has died.
by i8cvs 10 Sep '06

10 Sep '06

----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Oler" <cvn65vf94(a)msn.com> To: <vk6xh(a)arach.net.au>; <amsat-bb(a)amsat.org> Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2006 6:33 AM Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: The Eagle has died. > I sometimes look back on > the AO-40 Easy Sat articles (well written by Steve Ford) and smile. > > anyway intresting comments on your part. > > Robert Oler WB5MZO/portable > > Amsat Life member > Robert Oler WB5MZO Houston TX Hi Robert, WB5MZO In addition to the Steve Ford articles read please the article written by Antony Monteiro AA2TX in to QST september 2006 page-42 and smile again ! 73" de i8CVS Domenico

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[ans] ANS-253 AMSAT Weekly Bulletins
by Dee 10 Sep '06

10 Sep '06

AMSAT NEWS SERVICE ANS-253 ANS is a free, weekly, news and information service of AMSAT North America, The Radio Amateur Satellite Corporation. ANS reports on the activities of a worldwide group of Amateur Radio operators who share an active interest in designing, building, launching and communicating through analog and digital Amateur Radio satellites. Please send any amateur satellite news or reports to: ans-editor(a)amsat.org ****************** AMSAT 2006 Space Symposium ************************** Online registration and hotel reservation for the 2006 AMSAT Space Symposium has been posted to the AMSAT website, and information about the Symposium has been expanded. The 2006 AMSAT Space Symposium will be held October 6, 7 and 8 at the Crowne Plaza in Foster City California in the beautiful San Francisco Bay Area. Please visit http://www.amsat.org/amsat-new/symposium for additional information and an index to the expanded Symposium web pages. ************************************************************************ In this edition: * Mentor Graphics Makes Generous Donation * AMSAT Ballots due 9/15/06 * 2006 AMSAT Symposium * AO-51 PL Needed * Suit-Sat Re-enters * ARISS STATUS SB SAT @ AMSAT $ANS-253.01 Mentor Graphics Makes Generous Software Donation AMSAT News Service Bulletin 253.01 From AMSAT HQ SILVER SPRING, MD. September 10, 2006 To All RADIO AMATEURS BID: $ANS-253.01 AMSAT is very pleased to annouced an extremely generous donation of software tools from Mentor Graphics. Mentor Graphics has donated 20 licenses for entire suites of software with a total value in the hundreds of thousands of dollars! The software will used for the design, simulation, verification and test of circuits and multi-layer printed circuit boards for both the Eagle spacecraft as well as development of the User ground station for the digitial transponder. This software will be a great benefit to the Eagle and HPSDR team members working to develop the hardware that will make Eagle space and ground systems a reality. AMSAT thanks Mentor Graphics for their most generous donation. [ANS thanks Rick, W2GPS, for the above information] /EX SB SAT @ AMSAT $ANS-253.02 All AMSAT Ballots Due by Friday, 9/15/06 AMSAT News Service Bulletin 253.02 From AMSAT HQ SILVER SPRING, MD. September 10, 2006 To All RADIO AMATEURS BID: $ANS-253.02 Note to All AMSAT Members. Please make your vote count and get them mailed to AMSAT HQ by Friday, 9/15/06. Exercise your right to select your leadership and steer the group in the direction you feel is the proper course. Drop it in the mail now! Background on all the candidates can be found on the AMSAT web site to help your decisions. [ANS thanks Martha for the above information] /EX SB SAT @ AMSAT $ANS-253.03 2006 AMSAT Symposium AMSAT News Service Bulletin 253.03 From AMSAT HQ SILVER SPRING, MD. September 10, 2006 To All RADIO AMATEURS BID: $ANS-253.03 The annual Symposium is now about a month away. You can still sign up to attend this exciting event being held in San Francisco, CA. Meet all the leadeship and enjoy the classic talks given by superb speakers. Mingle with those that make satellites a reality-yes, real rocket scientists. All the information you need to join in this event are on the website. Stop by and read how to attend and see the great lineup of speakers and demonstrations that make this event unique. [ANS thanks Emily, N1DID, for the above information] /EX SB SAT @ AMSAT $ANS-253.04 AO-51 PL Needed AMSAT News Service Bulletin 253.04 From AMSAT HQ SILVER SPRING, MD. September 10, 2006 To All RADIO AMATEURS BID: $ANS-253.04 Remember that you need a PL of 67 Hz to access AO-51 in mode J-FM (except in QRP mode). Please, especially if you haven't worked a given satellite in mode J-FM before, make sure you can hear well enough copy callsigns before transmitting. There might be occasions on SO-50 when you're the only one on, but over the 'States, this is rather rare on AO-51, especially in high power mode. We're having problems with dead carriers on AO-51 this week, where sometimes even the regulars with good antenna setups can't get in due to interference from stations without PL. Please listen first and use the correct PL. 73's and good luck! September 11 to September 18 FM Repeater, L/S Uplink: 1268.700 MHz FM, No PL Tone Downlink: 2401.200 MHz FM [ANS thanks KD6PAG, for the above information] /EX SB SAT @ AMSAT $ANS-253.05 Suitsat Re-enters AMSAT News Service Bulletin 253.05 From AMSAT HQ SILVER SPRING, MD. September 10, 2006 To All RADIO AMATEURS BID: $ANS-253.05 All, On September 7, 2006 at 16:00 GMT, SuitSat-1 re-entered about 1400 km south-southwest of Western Australia. For more details, including the winners of the Chicken Little Contest, please go to: http://www.amsat.org/amsat-new/ariss/suitsatContest.php I want to thank all who made SuitSat-1 the phenomenal event that it was. Your hard work and dedication paid off. In just 3 weeks the SuitSat team developed and delivered a safe satellite system that has gained the confidence of the international space agencies. The web and PR team were able to garner unprecedented press coverage of our ham/educational outreach activity, including over 9 million hits on www.suitsat.org in February. Students around the world had the opportunity to participate in a 7 month "school spacewalk" with the artwork, pictures, signatures and voices on-board. And the "super-sleuth" ham radio operator extraordinaires were able to pull a significant amount of data from the satellite despite of its low signal strength. And my congratulations to the students and adults who won the Chicken Little contest!! Next for SuitSat-1--the commemorative certificates/diplomas. And at the AMSAT-NA symposium/ARISS meeting we will discuss our thoughts and plans for a potential SuitSat-2. Stay tuned! 73, Frank H. Bauer, KA3HDO AMSAT V.P. for Human Spaceflight Programs ARISS International Chairman [ANS Thanks Frank Bauer, KA3HDO, for the above information] EX/ SB SAT @ AMSAT $ANS-253.06 ARISS STATUS AMSAT News Service Bulletin 253.06 From AMSAT HQ SILVER SPRING, MD. September 10, 2006 To All RADIO AMATEURS BID: $ANS-253.06 ARISS Status September 4, 2006 1. Tennessee School Contact Successful On Monday, August 28, students from Northeast Middle School in Clarksville, Tennessee had the opportunity to speak with the ISS. Jeff Williams, KD5TVQ, answered 19 questions asked by ten children via the telebridge station VK4KHZ in Australia. Jeff Williams’ niece was one of the children selected to participate in the session. A local paper covered the contact. Twenty-one connections, including 3 repeater nodes, from 7 countries were made to the EchoLink AMSAT (101 377) and JK1ZRW (277 208) servers. Audio was also fed into the IRLP Discovery Reflector 9010, and was webcast courtesy of Verizon Conferencing. The Leaf-Chronicle wrote a story on the event entitled, “Students make long-distance call to astronaut in outer space.” See: http://www.theleafchronicle.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060829/NEWS01/… 2. ARRL Article on Japanese Contact ARRL covered the Sendai Yoshinari School contact in its article, “Junior High Schoolers in Japan Speak with Astronaut via Ham Radio.” See: http://www.arrl.org/news/stories/2006/09/01/3/?nc=1 3. School Contact Mentioned on Space.ref The Space.ref website has a brief entry on the Teven Tintenbar School in Australia. See paragraph 19 on: http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewsr.html?pid=21694 4. Options to Speak with Friends, Family from Space Include Ham Radio The Canadian Space Agency web site describes the options available to the ISS crew members for contacting friends and family on Earth. Ham radio is one of the options mentioned. See: http://www.space.gc.ca/asc/eng/astronauts/living_relaxing.asp 5. ARISS TIM Held The ARISS team held a Technical Interchange Meeting August 28 -31 at Goddard Space Flight Center. ARISS Delegate Sergey Samburov was able to attend the discussions which covered ARISS hardware and software, SuitSat-2 design and development, and school operations. [ANS thanks Carol, KB3LKI, for the above information] /EX In addition to regular membership, AMSAT offers membership in the President's Club. Members of the President's Club, as sustaining donors to AMSAT Project Funds, will be eligible to receive additional benefits. Application forms are available from the AMSAT Office. 73, This week's ANS Editor, Dee Interdonato, NB2F nb2f at amsat dot org _____________________________________________

1 0

S band or any backup?
by G0MRF＠aol.com 10 Sep '06

10 Sep '06

On the subject of a parallel S band TX. That may or may not be simple depending on what else is available inside Eagle. But in any event it should not require switches. About two years ago when there was a similar period of outrage on the BB, the hot topic was the wisdom of flying an untried or tested SDX transponder without a switchable conventional 'linear' backup. I beleieve it was Bob who announced "There will be no conventional linear transponder in Eagle" I was very pleased to see Rick, W2GPS, leap quickly into the debate and reassure everyone that the complicated DSP + logic in the SDX would be backed up by conventional linear electronics. 'just in case' In a recent mail the UV transponder has been referred to as having unbelievably high audio quality. An apparent and very well justified comment on the quality of the SDX. What I can't recall seeing, is any reference to any fall back position of a linear system as a back up. It's worth remembering that 3 - 5 years time will be the peak of the sunspot cycle. High solar activity, or an unfortunate error with the orbital change burn as AO-10, could result in the satellite receiving a great deal of radiation. It would be good to know that the linear backup plans have not been quietly filed in the waste paper basket. If it hasn't, then a parallel transmitter for S or any other band is very simple to implement. Just split the IF, wire the other transmitter in parallel. 5W to an S band patch or whatever, and control it by turning the DC power line on or off. S band amplifiers no longer need to run in class A with 30% efficiencies, so an up to date class AB design would not be a large burden on the power budget. I suppose my quiet concern is not really the lack of S band, but; If the SDX or 2m TX fails, what is left in the current design to provide a service to the 90+% who will not have, or are not interested in C band? Good engineering is important, but planing for the unexpected is vital. Incidentally. It occurs to me that a disadvantage of having one major UV transponder operating 24/7 is that while that concept removes the need for complicated scheduling it will occupy 100kHz or so of the 2m band permanently which may not be totally desirable in a limited 200kHz bandwidth. Presumably with Eagle 2 and 3 under design / construction at the time of launch they will have differnt bands. - Maybe 2390 - 2400 ish Enjoying the debate David G0MRF

1 0

S-Band Down Link P3E/Eagle
by WILLIAMS MICHAEL 10 Sep '06

10 Sep '06

One thing is certain, P3E will provide a real world test of S-band down link capability. It will then be perfectly clear if the decision to delete it from the Eagle was a wise choice. Mike K9QHO AMSAT 33589

6 6

HT Mindset
by sco＠sco-inc.com 10 Sep '06

10 Sep '06

HTs are nice. I have been reading about the plans for Eagle and how it must serve the HT and CC&R community of hams. Thats fine, when Eagle is close to Earth HT users can work it. But when Eagle is 40,000 km out in space that is when the larger tracking antenna arrays should come into their own. That lets both camps (HTs and tracking arrays) use and enjoy the next HEO satellite. CC&R restrictions should be taken care of with new state laws like PRB-1 to allow Hams to have antennas on their property that asist in case of natural disasters and in the war with Islamic Facists. If the goal is to launch 3 HEO sats over a 13 year period that means design and build one style spaceframe then change the insides as more modern technology is developed over the time span waiting for launch. P3E seems to be using a tried and true spaceframe. Why did Eagle need to be different? If there are plans for a 2nd P3E #2 or #3 that would interest me more than Eagle #1 with unproven ideas. Let most of the experimentation take place in the ground stations, not in space (at least not until we can send a repairman to space to fix it). Can't PSK31 work thru a HEO using very small V and U band antennas for one thing? Let the digital crowd do that and let the SSB folks use their tracking arrays to work voice on V and U and yes even S band if the users want to try it (thru the future interference). Maybe by then we will be using digital voice with techniques to work thru the interference on S band. Are we just going to give up and move to a higher band everytime a few commercial users get on one of our bands? Why? It may take 13 years to design, build and launch the first Eagle. You can not launch 3 Eagles in 13 years with the way you are going now. Just a few thoughts from a ham satellite user. Les W4SCO

2 1

S-band on Eagle
by Jim Sanford 10 Sep '06

10 Sep '06

Ladies and gentlemen: I have been reading the comments regarding the Eagle S-band downlink decision. I herewith respond to some. All along, the Eagle project has put a premium on hard science, rigorous peer review, and dispassionate analysis. All along we knew there might or would be some changes to what we've been planning. With several other issues on the move or decided, we took a few days in late June to hammer out, based on science, the transponder situation. We did multiple, independent link analyses, and all came to the same conclusion. We validated interference predictions with measurements that have been taken. The conclusion is that S-band is marginally useful as a downlink today (unusable in many locations), and by the time Eagle is launched, and through it's lifetime, will be unusable. Personally, I do not like this decision. I have S-band equipment that I was looking forward to using. Personally, I can live with this decision, and defend it to myself, let alone anyone else, because I am convinced that it is technically sound. As one of you commented this evening, AO-40 wasn't exactly a rock crusher on S-band. It worked, and adequately, at least on CW, but was not great. As I reflect on my personal AO-40 experiences, I now understand that there are 2 reasons for my disappointment. Local noise was one, and transponder distortion was another -- the latter will be corrected by SDX. S-band on AO-40, by necessity not choice, got many of us out of our comfort zones and convinced us that microwaves really aren't that hard. Let's enter the realm of S up and C down with that same realization. REMEMBER THAT AMSAT IS DEVELOPING THE GROUND STATION ALONG WITH THE SPACE SEGMENT. You will not be left on your own to develop ground equipment. You will not be asked to mortgage your house; affordability by the masses is a key component of the design for the entire system. Comparison with AO-51 is an "apples and oranges" thing. The path losses are much different. FM is very unlike CW/SSB or wideband digital modes. Remember that a goal of the Eagle system is that everything is on all the time. No more matrix switches, no more schedules. We need up and downlinks to be useful throughout the entire orbit. Why did we "regress" to U/V? For one reason, many of you asked for it, and some of us worked hard to somehow incorporate that capability in response to member's desires. The foot in the door was the utility of a V-band beacon in case everything else goes sour. The forcing function was as follows. A goal of Eagle has always been some kind of hand-held or jump bag portable ground station capability for entry into the emergency area while the tsunami waters are receeding and the hurricane winds are down to gale force. Many of us thought we could take advantage of the gain in small antennas to do this on the microwaves. Rigorous link analysis led us to the conclusion that the best place to do this is U/V -- both from a RF/DC power perspective, and from a link standpoint. This leads to the digital and "traditiona"l transponder package for U/V, implemented in SDX. Why not also include a (switchable) S-band downlink in parallel with the V-band? Remember, no switches. Also, we run into an antenna space problem. We've already increased the size of the spacecraft from where we started, and for many reasons, do NOT want to build something as large as AO-40. A couple of you have commented this evening that perusing EaglePedia has not revealed the details of the decisions. That is because, while Bob McGwier (N4HY) and I have been working on the report of the meeting, it is not public. We've been working hard on it since June, in and around other AMSAT, ham radio, and life events. Shortly after I push send on this message, I'll begin my final look at that document prior to public release. Before I go spend time with the spousal unit TONIGHT, I will finish it and publish it. I will send an announcement on the amsat-bb that it is public. To read the report, go to the EaglePedia main page, and select project index. From there, select Team and Meetings, and there will be several options, not all public. The San Diego meeting minutes will be obvious and public. Several of you have commented, "If S-band is unusable, why is it flying on P3E?" Fair question, but I can't answer for AMSAT-DL. I DO know that the P3E system design is considerably older and farther along than Eagle. Eagle design decisions were made based on the best information in June of 2006. Aspects of this discussion have been worthy of /dev/null. More aspects of this discussion have raised valid points and reasonable questions, deserving of response, which is why I've been composing this note for the last four hours or so. A few have raised the old allegation of the builders doing what they want, without regard to users needs. This is not true. While the desire to advance the state of the art (part of amateur radio's justification for existence and allocation of valuable spectrum) leads to enthusiasm and study of potentially useful new techniques, this desire had no impact on our analysis-based decisions. We started with requirements and services, and explored what would deliver. I thank all of you for your interest and support. Your Eagle team is working hard to develop a system that will serve our needs, as well as advance the state of the art. As promised, we are making decisions based on sound, peer-reviewed science, not anybody's opinions or desires. Please read the report, study the spreadsheets, download the excel file and play with it. If you can, make your own measurements and put those numbers into the spreadsheet. I think you'll understand how these decisions were reached. After contemplating the report, send me your questions. I'll either respond or forward to he who can best respond. Another fundamental tenet of the Eagle project is openness, so you have a right to a response to a rational question. Please recognize that we're volunteers too, and subject to the realities of day jobs, families, and a real life. Response may not be instantaneous. Thanks again and very 73, Jim James A. Sanford, PE Eagle Project Manager wb4gcs(a)amsat.org

8 7

AMSAT BOD Elections...
by Roger Kolakowski 10 Sep '06

10 Sep '06

I have only one suggestion... Vote with your minds, not your hearts... Roger WA1KAT

1 0

Re: Sband and Eagle: an appeal for a higher level discussion
by Joe Leikhim 10 Sep '06

10 Sep '06

This thread so reminds me of the past pleas for more mode B birds to replace AO-10 and AO-13. The AMSAT board response was that the VHF and UHF bands were getting noisy, illegal VHF and legal UHF interlopers were showing up and for the membership to embrace microwaves and build S band and L band stations. Well I am one who has such a station and while I would love certainly to see mode B, come back, I am also fully equipped to excercise some S and L band experiments. I can understand that many households are polluted with 2.4 GHz toys, mine is. My solution will be to pull the plug on that stuff during operation and to utilize a medium size dish for the downlink (Note: those grid panels can't discriminate as well as a bigger dish, and secondly the IC-970 noise blanker works on some types of S band ISM interference). Please someone tell me that we can work L and S band modes with HEO and linear transponders, I would become so much more interested in the hobby! -- Joe Leikhim K4SAT "The RFI-EMI-GUY"© "Treason doth never prosper: what's the reason? For if it prosper, none dare call it treason." "Follow The Money" ;-P

8 7

P3E page in english
by dave 10 Sep '06

10 Sep '06

Hello All, Just saw that the p3e-satellite.org page has the english translations working. Now I can start understanding all the references to Euros. One question - on the Join-in page under the "more about the raffle" heading, does it mean that to get any info on the status of P3E I will have to pay for a pixel? 73 de David VK5DG

1 0

C C Rider
by Carl Yaffey 10 Sep '06

10 Sep '06

Will someone please explain what "C C Rider" means for a newbie? Thanks and 73, Carl Carl Yaffey K8NU Banjo, guitar, bass, mandolin lessons. Pro Tools recording studio. carl_yaffeyNO_SPAM(a)yahoo.com. 614 268 6353, Columbus OH http://www.carl-yaffey.com

2 1

dichroic plate
by Geoff 09 Sep '06

09 Sep '06

Hi guys, It appears that future satelllite operations are likely to require operations on multiple microwave bands. Has anyone looked into the design and construction of dichroic plates suitable for amateur band operations? Mode S/X on P3E comes to mind as one place that might need them? For me the mechanical aspects do not present problems. Design does present problems as I do not have the test equipment for ¨cut and try¨ :-( . There are references on descanso.jpl.nasa.gov . 73 de Geoff vk2tfg.

1 0

SuitSat-1 Return
by Frank H. Bauer 09 Sep '06

09 Sep '06

Masa, I sent this to the SAREX reflector, since it is human spaceflight related. But I will post here since the question was raised. 73, Frank, KA3HDO All, On September 7, 2006 at 16:00 GMT, SuitSat-1 re-entered about 1400 km south-southwest of Western Australia. For more details, including the winners of the Chicken Little Contest, please go to: http://www.amsat.org/amsat-new/ariss/suitsatContest.php I want to thank all who made SuitSat-1 the phenomenal event that it was. Your hard work and dedication paid off. In just 3 weeks the SuitSat team developed and delivered a safe satellite system that has gained the confidence of the international space agencies. The web and PR team were able to garner unprecedented press coverage of our ham/educational outreach activity, including over 9 million hits on www.suitsat.org in February. Students around the world had the opportunity to participate in a 7 month "school spacewalk" with the artwork, pictures, signatures and voices on-board. And the "super-sleuth" ham radio operator extraordinaires were able to pull a significant amount of data from the satellite despite of its low signal strength. And my congratulations to the students and adults who won the Chicken Little contest!! Next for SuitSat-1--the commemorative certificates/diplomas. And at the AMSAT-NA symposium/ARISS meeting we will discuss our thoughts and plans for a potential SuitSat-2. Stay tuned! 73, Frank H. Bauer, KA3HDO AMSAT V.P. for Human Spaceflight Programs ARISS International Chairman Message: 4 Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2006 12:19:56 +0900 From: Masahiro Arai <m-arai(a)a.email.ne.jp> Subject: [amsat-bb] SuitSat-1 return To: amsat-bb(a)amsat.org Message-ID: <200609090319.AA01511(a)giga.a.email.ne.jp> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Alititude of SuitSat-1 is decreasing drastically. Its alititude at 1330z 8th Sep was about 150km. SuitSat-1 must have returned the Earth. Many thanks, SuitSat-1!! Masa JN1GKZ Tokyo Japan

1 0

Posat
by Vincenzo Mone 09 Sep '06

09 Sep '06

Hi to the list, is there anybody which has heard the POSAT in the last days? It is a while that I cannot hear it anymore. Today I've tried to update the keplerians but I still do not hear it. Anybody has heard it? Thanks 73 de Enzo IK8OZV EasyLog 5 BetaTester EasyLog PDA BetaTester WinBollet BetaTester D.C.I. CheckPoint Regione Campania Skype: ik8ozv8520 *************************************** ***** GSM +39 338 9749786 ***** ***** SMS +39 338 9749786 ***** ***** FAX +39 328 7244294 ***** *** 2nd e-mail: vimone(a)tin.it *** ***************************************

1 0

Using TH-7DA As a Crossband link
by Mike Hooles 09 Sep '06

09 Sep '06

Hi guys, I have a non satellite problem and you all know this radio better than I do. Is there any way of using the TH-7DA as a crossband link on FM, even using an external cable ? I cannot find anything in the handbook. Regards Mike G3LGR 33643

5 4

S-band on Eagle
by yokshs＠sbcglobal.net 09 Sep '06

09 Sep '06

Hi, I've been following the thread about Eagle, and like many others I am sad to hear that S-band will not fly. I do look forward to working S-band on P3E, and hope the Eagle team will reconsider, and fly an S transmitter, even if it is considered a backup or emergency transmitter. I understand why the team wants to drop it, but I have a feeling that if we DON'T fly it, we'll wish that we had. Sort of putting all the eggs in one basket to depend on U/v to work for the life of the bird, isn't it? Remember AO-40 - I never heard the S1 TX, but aren't we all glad there were two S transmitters aboard? I DO look forward to working U/v on Eagle, but I doubt that my budget will allow experimenting with new modes such as C-band anytime soon. With this in mind, as far as I'm concerned, Eagle will be a U/v bird only. While I won't argue that the 2.4 GHz spectrum is a 'sewer' in some areas, I've only had serious QRM on one occasion. The radar pulses or spread spectrum noise was cured by my radio's Noise Blanker. One evening while copying AO-40, the bird's signal dropped completely off the S-meter. It was like my dish had fallen off the roof or something! Seems a neighbor down the street got a new 2.4 GHz analog cordless telephone, and (you guessed it) she was the dreaded full duty-cycle type - a high-school age girl! Her phone must have broken or was returned to the store soon after (WHEW!) I never got a chance to DF it, as I only heard it the one time, but was in absolute horror at the possibility of losing my S-band RX. For those of you that doubt a non-licensed device can swamp your new downconverter, believe me, my AIDC 3731 could hear nothing else. On a related subject, seems like I read somewhere that some C-band experimenters were considering using s-band units for the final conversion from 5 GHz? In other words, the C-band converter would only need to convert from 5 GHz to 2 GHz, and let the surplus s-band units do the rest? Anyone know any more about this subject? Another use for S-band converters might be for RF linking purposes? A small transmitter and helix or dish at each end should work well for control links or linking repeater sites maybe? 73, Kyle Yoksh KØKN Olathe, Kansas Amsat # 35249 VUCC Satellite # 150

2 1

Hawaii activity
by Tim Tapio 09 Sep '06

09 Sep '06

Hi all, I'm planning a trip to Hawaii (Oahu) for a few days in January..how much activity is there on AO-51? I'd like to bring a handheld along, see if I can work someone while I'm there. 73 de Tim, K4SHF

2 1

Not too late
by MARTHA SARAGOVITZ 09 Sep '06

09 Sep '06

If you have not mailed your AMSAT ballot, you still have time. Ballots MUST arrive at the AMSAT office by Friday, September 15th. Martha Saragovitz AMSAT Manager

1 0

Re: S band downlink on P3E
by sco＠sco-inc.com 09 Sep '06

09 Sep '06

> I do not wish to duplicate that >which was designed in 1980 for a complete different era. The phase 3 >program is an engineering marvel. It is essentially one man's absolute >genius (Karl) incarnated and captured to varying degrees by the rest of >us as the supporting cast. But I do not believe it is appropriate for >2010-2020 given the launch environment, the RF environment, and the >legal environment. The frame is too small to support the antennas >required to use multiple satellites even to support 7/24 operations. >We need a larger frame to support the phased arrays to meet the 70% >availability and on and on and on. Ok that makes sense. How does the size of P3E compare to AO-40? Could we design a larger version of the P3E spaceframe that would fit into the mounting ring used for AO-40? if so would that give us a bird large enough to do what you think needs to be done, for the future needs of the sat community? We know that the P3E (AO10/13) shape seemed to work as I hope P3E will also work. Would not a large version work on the same principals? Les W4SCO

1 0

SO-50 Not Heard at
by Eric H Christensen 09 Sep '06

09 Sep '06

Just took the arrow and the HT out to the driveway to work SO-50 and didn't hear anything. I attempted to activate the bird numerous times but still nothing. Did anyone hear/work the bird on this pass? 73s, Eric KF4OTN

3 3

Re: 2.4 GHz Comments and Proposals
by Bob Bruninga 09 Sep '06

09 Sep '06

> ... if the inference problem at 2.4 GHz is as severe > as you repeatedly state - how come the cordless > phones and WiFi systems don't drown themselves > out an collapse with their own sea of mutual > interference? Because they are less than 150 feet away from their transmitters. And that is 74 dB stronger than a signal coming in from 40,000 km away... 74 dB is something like 25,000,000 times stronger... Bob, WB4APR

2 1

Re: want this
by Matt 09 Sep '06

09 Sep '06

> >The above was gleened from all the lateset gnashing. Is or does >anyone know of work being done of 5ghz receive systems? I have a >bunch of old C band receivers and C band LNA/LNB a 12 foot TVRO. I >am not and engineer, but I can follow directions. Just get me >started I would like to get ahead of the curve. 5ghz will be in >our future, ready or not! >73 Bob W7LRD >Seattle Well grab one and have a play with it. See what you come up with. I have converted 12 GHz sat LNBs to 10 GHz by super gluing an extra puc onto it's exiting puc, to change the Lo to 9 GHz. Played around with the LNBs pre-amp and filters by cutting/adding pcb tracks. No reason the same can't be done on C band LNB. You will be moving the LO about 2 GHz might be bit of stretch but it's going to be fun to find out. I did read a page about moding 12 GHz LNBs for 10 GHz ATV. Here is one page that gives step by step mods and there are a couple of others around http://www.qsl.net/pa3gco/zelfbouw/blauwkap/bluecap.html I have also seen the same done for a 2.4 GHz transmit converter on drake type downconverter which I can't find the page for at the moment. C band LNBs are cheap to get and there are heaps of them out there. So let's get at it!

1 0

Mode L/S Equip for P3E
by sco＠sco-inc.com 09 Sep '06

09 Sep '06

I have an Ft-847 setup for working sat. What are some ideas for adapting an L band uplink. My S band downconverter has a 2m IF. Les W4SCO

3 2

FS: Gulf Alpha EasySat Dual Band Yagi *SOLD*
by John Zaruba Jr 09 Sep '06

09 Sep '06

Thanks to everyone for their interest and the use of the bandwidth. 73, John AA2BN AMSAT 22683

1 0

want this
by w7lrd＠comcast.net 09 Sep '06

09 Sep '06

On a related subject, seems like I read somewhere that some C-band experimenters were considering using s-band units for the final conversion from 5 GHz? In other words, the C-band converter would only need to convert from 5 GHz to 2 GHz, and let the surplus s-band units do the rest? Anyone know any more about this subject? The above was gleened from all the lateset gnashing. Is or does anyone know of work being done of 5ghz receive systems? I have a bunch of old C band receivers and C band LNA/LNB a 12 foot TVRO. I am not and engineer, but I can follow directions. Just get me started I would like to get ahead of the curve. 5ghz will be in our future, ready or not! 73 Bob W7LRD Seattle

1 0

Dr. Bob is Correct
by John Champa 09 Sep '06

09 Sep '06

Greetings All! As many of you have done, I have been tracking satellite design and construction for years. If we have learned one thing, it is that this is not your Dad's Amateur Radio. Legacy ground gear investment is irrelevant. We must go where the engineering constraints lead us. If that is to 10 GHz, then so be it. And, digital is the future of Amateur Radio (and all other radios) anyway. Besides, I will do nearly anything not to have to mess around on the roof again with that huge long-boomed 145 MHz cross-polarized yagi. You could shoot you eye out! (HI) John - K8OCL

2 1

Re: S band and Eagle: an appeal for a higher level discussion
by Tom Clark, K3IO 09 Sep '06

09 Sep '06

At the risk of bodily attack, let me offer some comments on the topic that has produced so much AMSAT-BB traffic. The Eagle Mode-S decision was made at the conclusion of an intense, but very productive design meeting held in San Diego, just 2 months ago, at the end of June. In case you feel that we haven't told you what went on and why the radical changes, please refer to the very latest (July/August) AMSAT JOURNAL for some of the details of the meeting. In particular, I ask you to read Rick's (W2GPS) editorial on Page 3, and Bob's (N4HY) "Engineering Notebook" beginning with "Warning: Honesty Follows" on pages 9/10, and the Jim's (WB4GCS) Eagle Update on pages 24/25. Also, you can glean some details of the meeting and its conclusions in the K3IO/N4HY presentation at the Central States VHF Society (CSVHFS) Meeting in July; that material is on my personal website at http://mysite.verizon.net/~w3iwi/EAGLE_CSVHFS.pdf <http://mysite.verizon.net/%7Ew3iwi/EAGLE_CSVHFS.pdf> (~3.9 MB in size) or in its full-blown (a huge 19MB in size) PowerPoint version as http://mysite.verizon.net/~w3iwi/EAGLE_CSVHFS.ppt <http://mysite.verizon.net/%7Ew3iwi/EAGLE_CSVHFS.ppt>. As you can see from the pictures in Bob's Engineering Notebook, the meeting included your AMSAT President (W2GPS), VP of Engineering (N4HY), Eagle Project Manager (WB4GCS) and two Board members (W2GPS & K3IO). To answer one oft-posed question, the entire Board has not met since the June meeting; the material constitutes the current "best guess" engineering forecast, and the Board has been told of the conclusions (and they have read the Journal); but as of now no votes have been taken. Feel free to contact the Board members if you feel that your desires have not been taken into consideration. A full list appears on Page 3 of the Journal, and all can be reached by Email addressed to call(a)amsat.org. After the design group went through careful estimates of the link budgets for each of the classes of users we considered (see Jim's paper on Page 24 and/or my CSVHFS presentation), and considered the feasibility of making the spacecraft work, we came to the conclusion that my C-C Rider concept wouldn't fly; there was no way we could obtain enough T/R isolation for full-duplex operation, and using half-duplex with the time delays associated with a satellite 40,000 km away was impractical. C'est la vie. We considered the RFI environment carefully (see my CSVHFS paper for details) as it would exist 10 years from now. Why 10 years? Well, it will take us 3-4 years to fly Eagle, and then we hope it will last and be useful for at least a decade, so a 10 year forecast seemed about right. In that time frame, many of us (me especially) feel that the European Galileo GNSS (Global Navigation Satellite System, i.e. GPS) (and possibly similar systems being designed in Japan & China) will have prime DOWNLINK signals overlaying our 1260-1270 MHz UPLINK band. The signals being sent down may well be deemed critical for "Safety of Life" services; it is not unlikely (double negative used intentionally) that administrations may cancel out our L-band uplink so those "damned Hams can't cause an A380 with 500 people on board to crash!". Since weight, power and volunteer engineering talent are all finite resources, we came to the conclusion that it was not prudent for us to invest in an L-band uplink. C'est la vie. We then considered the S1 (13 cm) and S2 (9 cm) allocations. It's a pity that amateurs cannot use the S2 = 9 cm (3400 MHz) band in Region 1; it would be PERFECT as an alternate to L-band. I argued long and hard for it and was beaten down. However, it might find some use for telemetry downlinks. The 10 GHz = X-band and higher microwave frequencies were considered as possible interesting channels for experimental use, but not really practical for "heavy lifting" transponders. C'est la vie. I'll come back to S1 & C-band in a bit. During the discussions we put in hard numbers for each of the possible bands for each of the classes of users we envisioned (See Jim's article on Page 23 and my slides). We were already planning on the use of a Mode-B (70 cm up, 2M down) Software Defined Transponder (SDX) which would be PERFECT for the legacy "Class-0" users. We then discussed our desire for a new Class-1 service. This is envisioned as a service which can send short text messages from portable hand-held terminals, rather like the SMS messaging service in wide use by teen-agers and similar to Bob Bruninga's APRS messaging. The idea is based in a desire to have Amateur Radio ready for the next Katrina or Christmas Tsunami disaster. When we put in the link budget numbers for hand-held terminals (including antennas) with a satellite at 40,000 km range, it also dictated the use of Mode-B. (Detailed spreadsheets justifying this conclusion are posted on EaglePedia). In fact, Fran Brickle (AB2KT) is already hard at work on the protocol and SDX code and plans to present a paper at San Diego. Now let's turn our attention to the controversial S-band topic. Jan King (W3GEY/VK4GEY) presented quantitative results that he and Kerry Banke (N6IZW) had obtained in San Diego, Palo Alto & Queensland on the 2.4 GHz RFI environment. He indicated that, even in the midst of a field hundreds of meters from the nearest building, the RFI levels were 20+ dB above thermal as seen with a non-directional antenna. Others in the meeting reported anecdotal data that noise levels in some small towns had increased 60+ dB in three years since WiFi systems were installed. Several people in the meeting told the effects of the newer (802.11G and 802.11DraftN) 50-100 Mbit/s systems and discussed plans that they new industry had in the pipeline that will make the situation even worse. This is especially true on the 10+ year time scales that Eagle must be designed for. In my CSVHFS paper, you will see a slide that says "S-Band is a Sewer". Part of this is our own inadvertent fault. With AO-40 & AO-51, we use S-Band in a receive mode. The non-licensed users have no idea that we are occupying the frequency. What better way to clear them out (now here's a radical thought) than by TRANSMITTING instead of receiving! And we noted the easy availability of surplus S-band power amplifiers at the 5-30 watt level. Thus S-band lost its "beauty" for downlink and became a band for uplinks. And we noted that in locations where a fairly high power ATV repeater was operating on S-band, the QRM was a LOT less. Yes, this decision was based on incomplete data. It would be wonderful if many of you took the challenge to make quantitative measurements of the S-band RFI levels in multiple locations. Just take your S-band LNA, put on a low-gain antenna and measure the difference in background noise level between that antenna and a 50 ohm dummy load as accurately as you can. You will get better accuracy if you can use a wide measurement bandwidth (10-100 kHz or so). Remember to disable your receiver's AGC. A good spectrum analyzer would be an excellent choice to use as the detector. Please feel free to send me any such measurements along with notes on the equipment you used and the environment where you made the tests (urban, rural, etc). My Email address is mailto:[email protected]. Since L and S2 had been ruled out for reasons described above, this left us with the possibility of using C-band as a DOWNLINK. There are some concerns about the 802.11A/cordless phone/etc QRM, but we noted that the Amateur Satellite DOWNLINK band is above most of the crap (5830-5850 MHz). The work I had done on C-C Rider had shown that, with a phased array antenna and a power amplifier at each element, we could generate adequate power so that a Class-A user with a 50 cm diameter (i.e. DirecTV) dish would have good performance. The S/C links were designed as digital links. The uplink signals would have error correction coding that would be decoded at the spacecraft, and then sent down with "fresh" codes on the downlink. This makes the satellite links much easier (by tens of dB) than if they were "bent pipe" linear links. The users would be able to use any type of signal they desire (Voice, SSTV or even CW). In all this design work, we took into account that the typical user does not have the digital and S/C RF widgets. The plan is to develop the user's hardware at the same time, in parallel with the spacecraft hardware; AMSAT would then make this available to all. We envisioned using the TAPR TNC-2 model -- TAPR "seeded" the community by distributing a few hundred kits, and then licensed the design to commercial manufacturers. In conclusion, I ask you, the satellite users to consider what will be the state-of-the-art and the state of amateur radio in the window 5-15 years from now. It may be painful to admit that you invested in an S-band down converted and barbecue grill dish for a now-defunct AO-40. Just consider the big picture -- I've been around long enough to think back on the early 70s: People had cobbled together 2M CW transmitters for use on Mode-A with AO-6. Then AO-7 came along with Mode-B and the loud cry went up "Now we have to throw away our 2M transmitters and then figure out how to make a transmitter that can work on UHF!!". And when the lower frequency transmitters failed on AO-40, people had to listen on S-band. Admit it -- it wasn't all that hard to accept new technology. 73 de Tom, K3IO

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Mode B equipment for eagle (fwd)
by McGrane 09 Sep '06

09 Sep '06

Quick follow-up before I'm inundated; Of course I would resolve the antenna pointing pointing issue, pat ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2006 07:46:45 -0400 (EDT) From: McGrane <tmcgrane(a)suffolk.lib.ny.us> To: Amsat BB <amsat-bb(a)amsat.org> Subject: Mode B equipment for eagle Greetings In the past couple of years, I have set up a very cheap satellite station for mode B. I had a 2 meter all-mode mobile rig (FT480R) I paid 50 dollars for connected to a cushcraft 4 element Yagi beam. I purchased a 70 centimeter FT790RII for $125 and made a homebrew 8 element Yagi. Antennas are monted on single azimuth rotator mast and angled up about 10 degrees. This setup works extremely well for hamsat (VO-52). Now, going from LEO hamsat to HEO Eagle, I will probably have to make a longer UHF yagi and add an amplifier, Also a longer VHF beam. I already have a mirage 2 meter amp with built in preamp. If the coax is short as it is now, I can use the amp's preamp. I saw a reference in one of the flurry of emails mentioning a 1KW ERP SSB station for eagle. Right now, for UHF, I'm at about 250 watts ERP. Either adding an amp or making a new antenna will bring me up to 1KW ERP or more. Am I on the right path? Will I be able to add to this equipment to work Eagle or will something totally new be required for mode B ? Thanks for ideas, Patrick N2OEQ

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Mode B equipment for eagle
by McGrane 09 Sep '06

09 Sep '06

Greetings In the past couple of years, I have set up a very cheap satellite station for mode B. I had a 2 meter all-mode mobile rig (FT480R) I paid 50 dollars for connected to a cushcraft 4 element Yagi beam. I purchased a 70 centimeter FT790RII for $125 and made a homebrew 8 element Yagi. Antennas are monted on single azimuth rotator mast and angled up about 10 degrees. This setup works extremely well for hamsat (VO-52). Now, going from LEO hamsat to HEO Eagle, I will probably have to make a longer UHF yagi and add an amplifier, Also a longer VHF beam. I already have a mirage 2 meter amp with built in preamp. If the coax is short as it is now, I can use the amp's preamp. I saw a reference in one of the flurry of emails mentioning a 1KW ERP SSB station for eagle. Right now, for UHF, I'm at about 250 watts ERP. Either adding an amp or making a new antenna will bring me up to 1KW ERP or more. Am I on the right path? Will I be able to add to this equipment to work Eagle or will something totally new be required for mode B ? Thanks for ideas, Patrick N2OEQ

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SO-50 Not Heard at 2200z... CORRECTION
by Eric H Christensen 09 Sep '06

09 Sep '06

Opps, forgot the time in my original message... Just took the arrow and the HT out to the driveway to work SO-50 and didn't hear anything. I attempted to activate the bird numerous times but still nothing. Did anyone hear/work the bird on this pass? 73s, Eric KF4OTN

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10 september balloon with x repeater active!
by Cor 09 Sep '06

09 Sep '06

Hello All, At 10 september 2006 is a balloon fox hunt event in Holland. On the balloon is also a 70cm->2m crossband repeater active. Uplink: 432.550Mhz Downlink: 145.475Mhz (mode FM). You do not have to correct doppler. Other equipment mounted on the balloon. 80m. beacon active on 3.582Mhz (1 watt FSK). 2m. beacon active on 145.450Mhz ATV video transceiver 2330Mhz (with a camera looking to earth). Maybe the message above does not belong in the amsat mail reflector - but I'm sure many satellite enthusiasts (here in europe) might like to trie the balloon repeater. In 2005 I have worked 5 different countries via the balloon x rep. (F/G/ON/PA/DL). More info about this nice event you can see on the official balloon fox hunt website. http://www.ballonvossenjacht.nl/gbtaal.html Check tommorow last updates each time!!! Also check the DX cluster. 73's Cor PD0RKC http://www.pd0rkc.com

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SuitSat-1 return
by Masahiro Arai 09 Sep '06

09 Sep '06

Alititude of SuitSat-1 is decreasing drastically. Its alititude at 1330z 8th Sep was about 150km. SuitSat-1 must have returned the Earth. Many thanks, SuitSat-1!! Masa JN1GKZ Tokyo Japan

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ECHO
by McGrane 09 Sep '06

09 Sep '06

greetings- ECHO has been hugely popular this week with the higher power downlink. Thanks to the ops team for conducting this. It sounds to me like quite a few people are trying to access the satellite during continental US passes. I still hear quite a few regulars and very few new people. How about the regulars take a vacation this weekend so some new people can get their first contact? Thanks, pat N2OEQ

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